"I like how you are all trying to sway me towards Kerry."

Again, I think you're viewing this the wrong way. Don't confuse what born-again-vampire and I say. I don't care who you vote for, as long as you're informed about the candidates. Don't ask Scott-Howell about this stuff, either. His last political post said almost the same thing you did about Kerry's stance on the body armor vote. He's yet to respond to what I told him
Anyway, have fun at school. Talk to you in... 8 hours?

Actually he probably wants Bush to win. Who else could miss a 6' 8" man with a dialasys (sp?) machine hobbling around the desert

Are you kidding? He remembers who let him walk. He's hoping bush wins.

Siduu101 Wrote: I bet he's praying for Bush to lose!

I'm sorry you live in America Blade_Tsung,I bet you're getting it rough over there,god bless you guys.

Thanks man. And may God bless you too Siduu.

Siduu101 Wrote: I'm sorry you live in America Blade_Tsung,I bet you're getting it rough over there,god bless you guys.

Yes. May God bless Siduu and his son, too.

Hyuga Wrote: "I like how you are all trying to sway me towards Kerry." Again, I think you're viewing this the wrong way. Don't confuse what born-again-vampire and I say. I don't care who you vote for, as long as you're informed about the candidates. Don't ask Scott-Howell about this stuff, either. His last political post said almost the same thing you did about Kerry's stance on the body armor vote. He's yet to respond to what I told him Anyway, have fun at school. Talk to you in... 8 hours?

Furthermore, don't think that I want you to vote for Kerry. I am trying to sway you away from Bush, from that point, I could care less.

thank guys,I thought everyone hated me but instead I'm getting "God bless you."

Yeah Hydro, AFAIK no one attacked you personally.

But if you state your political beliefs, you can expect a debate to ensue. It's the very basis of democracy.

Did you even read all responses, or did you follow my link? You're voting against your own interests dude, that's what we're trying to tell you.

My reasons for wanting to see Bush disappear from the White House have little to do with my own ideologies (I'm not even an American, so). If you really want to be critical about your own choices, read a few serious websites on what Dubya has been doing for the past few years (not sites that tell you what you want to hear).

Please don't turn the blind eye to us.

Cheers,
VQ

(By the way... I couldn't care less what other users, mods, admins, etc, think about politics. The lowliest noob here can have a better political insight than the highest ranking admin. This has nothing to do with the discussion.)

I'm voting for John Kerry simply for a change... for the better :)

Hyuga Wrote: I'm not much a politics person, but I am voting for Kerry if for nothing more than pure spite for the uber-annoying right wing.

I thought you were voting for Liberman? :\

Lieberman hating violent games is a conservative stance. It goes with all of that religious family values garbage.

Good try, though.

Quirk Wrote: Hyuga Wrote: I'm not much a politics person, but I am voting for Kerry if for nothing more than pure spite for the uber-annoying right wing. I thought you were voting for Liberman? :\

VainQueur Wrote: Yeah Hydro, AFAIK no one attacked you personally. But if you state your political beliefs, you can expect a debate to ensue. It's the very basis of democracy. Did you even read all responses, or did you follow my link? You're voting against your own interests dude, that's what we're trying to tell you. My reasons for wanting to see Bush disappear from the White House have little to do with my own ideologies (I'm not even an American, so). If you really want to be critical about your own choices, read a few serious websites on what Dubya has been doing for the past few years (not sites that tell you what you want to hear). Please don't turn the blind eye to us. Cheers, VQ (By the way... I couldn't care less what other users, mods, admins, etc, think about politics. The lowliest noob here can have a better political insight than the highest ranking admin. This has nothing to do with the discussion.)

This is the best response I've heard all day. Yes I understand you are trying to show me voting for Bush is against some of my own interests. I agree with some of you on what you are saying. If you can point me in a good direction on Kerry, then hey maybe I might change my mind, but as an 18 year old kid, the only sources I have to learn about the candidates is the media and news. My biggest concern is of the troops right now. If you can give me some good reasons of things Kerry plans to do for the U.S. troops, then hell maybe I will change my stance. But right now from the looks of it I support Bush. Kerry recently set out a plan to withdraw troops. Right now I don't know if that's such a good idea. If we withdraw troops right now, it will make it seem like we are giving in to terrorism, and that we just left Iraq in the middle of a mess. Oh, and Hyuga I am in college so no it isn't 8 hours.

I wish I could say Kerry had a extremely different stradegy on what to do in Iraq. But one thing is kerry plans to get the troops out soon. IMO, that's best for them.

BTW, I do wish you'd address the other comments.

Hydro Wrote: VainQueur Wrote: Yeah Hydro, AFAIK no one attacked you personally. But if you state your political beliefs, you can expect a debate to ensue. It's the very basis of democracy. Did you even read all responses, or did you follow my link? You're voting against your own interests dude, that's what we're trying to tell you. My reasons for wanting to see Bush disappear from the White House have little to do with my own ideologies (I'm not even an American, so). If you really want to be critical about your own choices, read a few serious websites on what Dubya has been doing for the past few years (not sites that tell you what you want to hear). Please don't turn the blind eye to us. Cheers, VQ (By the way... I couldn't care less what other users, mods, admins, etc, think about politics. The lowliest noob here can have a better political insight than the highest ranking admin. This has nothing to do with the discussion.) This is the best response I've heard all day. Yes I understand you are trying to show me voting for Bush is against some of my own interests. I agree with some of you on what you are saying. If you can point me in a good direction on Kerry, then hey maybe I might change my mind, but as an 18 year old kid, the only sources I have to learn about the candidates is the media and news. My biggest concern is of the troops right now. If you can give me some good reasons of things Kerry plans to do for the U.S. troops, then hell maybe I will change my stance. But right now from the looks of it I support Bush. Kerry recently set out a plan to withdraw troops. Right now I don't know if that's such a good idea. If we withdraw troops right now, it will make it seem like we are giving in to terrorism, and that we just left Iraq in the middle of a mess. Oh, and Hyuga I am in college so no it isn't 8 hours.

I see. Well, in any case, there are non-partisan organizations to get facts from. Even though it's really boring to read, I'm nearly positive there is a .gov domain that lists bills and such and who voted for/against them. I'd think that would be a pretty good place to see where Bush and Kerry stand on the issues they keep dodging.

What is your evidence of the media's left bias (please fill the room with irony by posting an article from a right winger)?

Hydro Wrote: This makes no sense to me. You say that you're passionate about politics but that you can be easily swayed by a bunch of people on a TV? Also, the media, as a whole, isn't biased in the least. There are some liberal (I assume you meant liberal when you said democratic) outlets and some conservative. I can't see how anybody could watch Fox and think the media is biased towards liberals. What are you talking about Hyuga? I think you misunderstood what I said. I am very passionate about politics. When I said "I realized the media is completely democratic, and it's easy to be swayed towards Kerry." what I meant was people in general, not myself. I try not to be swayed by the media. My views are determined only by what I know about these two candidates. Am I a mis-informed voter? Maybe, but it's not my fault. How in the hell am I supposed to be informed and know what the truth is when both sides control different parts of the media and they both lie? Let's get one thing straight. I don't agree with Bush on a lot of things. Some of those things are exactly what born-again-vampire said. Bush doesn't do anything for healthcare, poverty, or the environment which I disagree with. I also believe his ties with the Saudis and Egyptians is bullshit. He gives them money when he should be giving money to the poor. But, then again I don't like some of the things about John Kerry. He changes his views on opinions so much, it's hard to keep track. His military record is also in question on whether he deserved those three purple hearts. But then again Bush is missing files for his records. So what the hell, neither candidate seems great in my opinion, but Kerry hasn't done enough for me to wanna vote for him.

born-again-vampire Wrote: What is your evidence of the media's left bias (please fill the room with irony by posting an article from a right winger)?

Did you not read what I just wrote? Damn man, I just said I agree with you that some of the media is right winged, like FOX (I don't watch FOX, I hate it because they concentrate on negative issues too much). There is also left winged media too like CNN.

I cannot justify voting for a man who could have stopped the most horrible act ever committed on American soil, but chose to ignore it.

Bush and co. knew about 9/11. Condi Rice's exact words about the intelligence leading up to 9/11 were blatantly clear. When asked what her intelligence said, she replied, "I believe it said something like 'Bin Laden determined to attack in the United States.'"

Of course Clinton was blamed for 9/11, but we know that's total bullshit. Clinton appointed Richard Clarke as the first antiterrorism coordinator after the last Al Qaeda attack in 2000 on the USS Cole. Clarke's mission was to come up with a plan to dismantle Al Qaeda. The plan included several key things to do, including covert action in Afghanistan. A Bush administration official has been quoted in Time magazine that this plan was "everything we've done since 9/11." The plan was completed weeks before Bush took office, so the Clinton administration decided to hold off, not wanting to hand over a war to the incoming Bush administration. Of course, we now know what happened. Bush ignored the warnings from Richard Clarke and another Clinton advisor Sandy Berger; the December 30, 2001 New York Times article stated, "As he prepared to leave office, Mr. Berger met with his successor, Condoleezza Rice, and gave her a warning. According to both of them, he said that terrorism-and particularly Mr. bin Laden's brand of it-would consume far more of her time than she had ever imagined." While Berger left office, Clarke met with Rice about his counterterrorism plan, and the administration was so impressed he stayed on as head of counterterrorism. But we now know the administration did nothing with this plan and even some now claim that the Bush administration thought the Clinton administration had become obsessed with terrorism.

As for the "Liberal Media?" Don't make me laugh. There is no liberal media. There are a few outlets out there that are incredibly left-wing, but 90% of you have never even heard of them. There are two kinds of media: The mainstream media and the right-wing media. The right wing media includes (but not limited to): FOX News, The Washington Times, The New York Post, The Wallstreet Journal's editorial page, almost all of talk radio. The mainstream media-ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, The New York Times, The Washington Post, Time, Newsweek, etc. generally attempt to be fair. But often, when the right-wing media gets ahold of a lie and preaches it as gospel, the lazy mainstream media picks up on it without fact checking (The Swiftboat Bullshit is a prime example of this). Of course no one will hear about the latest stories about Bush snorting coke at Camp David or Laura Bush smoking pot often when she was a teenager, but that has just about as much merit and credibility as the Swiftboat Ads.

Anyone who thinks John Kerry is going to cut funding for our armed forces is acting foolish. We live in a much different time, if Kerry did such a thing, he would be decimated by the public and the media. Please tell me why anyone gets the idea that Kerry will cut their funding other than what Bush's Administration says? You should know better than to trust a lousy campaign ad that claims Kerry voted against necessary armor for our men and women. Give me a break. Bush has the dirtiest player in political history in Karl Rove creating these ads. Here's a little lesson on how Karl Rove finished off John McCain in the presidential primaries of 2000 when it was down to Bush vs. McCain:

Tactic #1 - In February of 2000, Republican voters in the south began receiving phone calls from "Independent Polling Companies" to get their feelings on certain issues. Calls would begin like this:
Caller: Hi. I'm Calling from an independent polling company and I was wondering if I could have a minute of your time.

Voter: Sure.

Caller: Great! If you knew that Senator John McCain was a cheat, liar, and fraud, and that he has fathered illegitimate black children, would you be more likely to vote for him, or less likely to vote for him?

Voter: Uhh... probably less?

Of course, there were no independent polling companies and no information was being gathered. This is called push polling, a way to spread lies about your opponent while looking completely innocent to the whole thing. McCain hasn't fathered any bastard children, but he did adopt a Bangladeshi girl, who is dark skinned. So the Bush campaign took it upon themselves to claim this was a illegitimate black child.

Tactic #2 - Just make shit up!
The Bush campaign began spreading lies that McCain was pro-abortion (he's pro-life), that he is a homosexual (hahahaha), his wife, Cindy has outstanding warrants for her arrest for supplying alcohol to minors (please), he voted for the largest tax increase ever (nope), he fathered another illegitimate child by a Vietnamese woman, which is why he got special treatment while being held prisoner by the Viet Cong (you don't get much lower than that one folks).

Tactic #3 - Campaign ads!
The Bush Campaign claimed McCain didn't care about breast cancer. Because many years ago, McCain voted against some poorly-written bill that had SOME breast cancer funding in it. Think about that one for a second, someone watching that had to think, "Goddamn, that McCain wants women to get breast cancer."

All this thanks to the man known as "Bush's Brain" Karl Rove. This man put a series of character assassins in place to deliver Bush the Republican nomination for President, all while keeping his own hands clean.

Oh, but guess what, that's not all. That was just in 2000, what has Bush done lately? Oh, how about this little gem courtesy of the AP:
"WASHINGTON(AP) Two former Vietnam prisoners of war who appear in ads attacking Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry were appointed by the Bush administration to a panel advising the Department of Veterans Affairs."

Yes folks, your president who claimed to have nothing to do with the Swiftboat Ads, gave two of them jobs! Think about that for just one second, let it set in; the President of the United States, gave a job to two men trying to assassinate his opponent's character who never served on Kerry's boat and have been proven to be complete liars. Why would he do this? Because the Swiftboat Lies were all part of Karl Rove's master plan.

I don't get how Republicans are the war party. Why they'll be the ones to support our troops? Oh sure, they'll send your son or your daughter, or your brother or your sister, or your best friend, or your cousins, but they never go themselves. Cheney got five deferments, Bush was doing lines of coke off a hooker's ass, oh I'm sorry, he "served." Of course, Bush's military records magically vanished in a fire, damn how (in)convenient.

How did Bush become president? Let's look at a US Map, now look at the lower right, see that thing called Florida? Well, George got his brother Jeb to strike all people who were convicted criminals, okay, I can live with that. But then Bush also got his brother to also remove all people who had names similar to convicted criminals. If Bob Jones was a convicted criminal then Bob James and Bobbi Jones were banned from voting as well.

Then we get a TV station in Florida to announce Bush had won long before counting had been finished. Then when Gore demanded a recount, it made him look like a sore loser. Gotta count those overseas votes, but they had to be dated on or before the day of voting, seems the person in charge of that "forgot" to tell them about the voting deadline. When Gore complained about many votes lacking the date, Bush's camp complained that Gore was trying to rob our brave men and women of voting.

Face it, there is no justifiable reason to give Bush four more years other than ignorance to the issues. Bush has this character going for him of the everyman cowboy. When in actuality he's a priviliged white boy, drunk until he was 40, interests in oil, thus killing any chance we have of finally finding an alternative to the finite oil supply. This man has put our country in more danger than we faced before 9/11. We've destroyed Iraq, making it a breeding ground for new terrorists and religious fundamentalists. Jobs are being shipped over the border, veterans get treated like shit, jobs aren't being created, tax cuts for the rich, etc. etc. Please give me a good reason to vote for Bush other than what his administration or the right-wing media tells you?

Cnn is not left. They're closer to the middle, but they're not left. Most people who vote for Bush seem to think that if a Media Company is less pro bush then Fox, then it's pro liberal. CNN is far from this. Edit: And you're still not backing up your original claims.

Hydro Wrote: born-again-vampire Wrote: What is your evidence of the media's left bias (please fill the room with irony by posting an article from a right winger)? Did you not read what I just wrote? Damn man, I just said I agree with you that some of the media is right winged, like FOX (I don't watch FOX, I hate it because they concentrate on negative issues too much). There is also left winged media too like CNN.

Listen people, I'm done with this. Nice post by the way Scarecrow. Probably the best I've seen yet on why I should vote for Kerry. How do I know it's true though? In any case I will leave you all with this...

To be quite honest I don't trust Bush or Kerry. I hate this election. It's probably one of the worst elections in history, and of course it's my first one to vote for, go figure.

You sound unsure of who to vote for. I'd do more research and do it quick. Otherwise, you might vote for the wrong person.

Hydro Wrote: Listen people, I'm done with this. Nice post by the way Scarecrow. Probably the best I've seen yet on why I should vote for Kerry. How do I know it's true though? In any case I will leave you all with this... To be quite honest I don't trust Bush or Kerry. I hate this election. It's probably one of the worst elections in history, and of course it's my first one to vote for, go figure.

born-again-vampire Wrote: You sound unsure of who to vote for. I'd do more research and do it quick. Otherwise, you might vote for the wrong person. Hydro Wrote: Listen people, I'm done with this. Nice post by the way Scarecrow. Probably the best I've seen yet on why I should vote for Kerry. How do I know it's true though? In any case I will leave you all with this... To be quite honest I don't trust Bush or Kerry. I hate this election. It's probably one of the worst elections in history, and of course it's my first one to vote for, go figure.

Damn you, lol. You beat me to the response. I was going to post my last reply to this thread by saying I decided I don't know enough yet to make my decision on who I should vote for. I thought I did, but some people have convinced me otherwise, you being one of them. I just want to make the right decision, especially since this is my first election I get to vote for.

I don't blame you. I feel comftorble with my choice, but I am willing to listen to someone try and "show me the light" if you will. I'm glad there's more people who aren't so dead set in their ways beliefs.

Hydro Wrote: Listen people, I'm done with this. Nice post by the way Scarecrow. Probably the best I've seen yet on why I should vote for Kerry. How do I know it's true though? In any case I will leave you all with this... To be quite honest I don't trust Bush or Kerry. I hate this election. It's probably one of the worst elections in history, and of course it's my first one to vote for, go figure.

How do you know it's true? Check the NY Times, Time Magazine, Newsweek, or any other mainstream media outlet without a right-wing bias.

Look, this election is not about trusting Bush or Kerry because you can't trust ANY politician. There's no such thing as an honest politician; Jimmy Carter tried it and was viciously mauled by everyone with the outlet to speak their opinion. And this election is a VERY important election, unlike 2000. In 2000, we had two carbon copies, Bush and Gore... they were interchangable, could have called them Bore and Gush. This election is about the direction this country is going to take following 9/11. I mean, we still have troops stationed in Korea, so let that be an indicator of how long we're going to be staying in Iraq. George Bush is going to lead this country into a war that makes Vietnam look like a day in the park. Because in Vietnam, they wouldn't stop because we were there. Imagine what it's going to be like fighting people that won't stop because they think we're attacking their religion. These people are already killing themselves by the hundreds everyday in suicide bombings. They are not afraid to die and will do whatever they have to do to defend their beliefs. Are we ready to wage that war? Absolutely not. We will spread ourselves far too thin because of and this great country could be destroyed. Kerry realizes we've bungled in Iraq and knows we can't just pull out, and will try diplomacy before simply blowing shit up. Keep in mind many of our men and women in Iraq are reserves and never served a day in their life before being shipped out for this war. So think of your country's future long before you step into that voting booth on November 2. There's the guy we KNOW FOR A FACT has fucked this country up to levels not seen since the Great Depression, or the guy who may not be much better, but certainly cannot be worse. I've spoken to many people and the thing that strikes me the most is when men in their sixties tell me this is the worst president they've ever seen in US History, and the majority of these people were raised conservative.

I'm not saying John Kerry is going to be the best thing America has ever seen, he's not. But we have to rebuild this country and I'm not comfortable putting it in the hands of a man who has no respect for the political discourse of this nation.

I'm going to leave you with one final reason as to why I'm voting for John Kerry. The Republican National Convention, when Bush accepts the nomination. The crowd goes wild, the families of Bush and Cheney come onto the stage, but Cheney's daughter is missing. Why, you ask? Because Dick Cheney's daughter is a lesbian and because of this administration's stance on gay marriage, Cheney pandered to his politics rather than his very own daughter. She wasn't even at the Convention, and this is supposedly the administration for families and moral values. This is a cruel administration led by the trifecta of Bush, Cheney, and Ashcroft, with Karl Rove pulling the strings. I cannot vote for men who care about nothing but their power and pushing their agenda onto the country.