Whoa, I didn't know that Cheney's daughter is a lesbian. Him choosing politics over his daughter even if she is a lesbian is wrong. Family is more important, than a campaign.

Hydro Wrote: Listen people, I'm done with this. Nice post by the way Scarecrow. Probably the best I've seen yet on why I should vote for Kerry. How do I know it's true though? In any case I will leave you all with this... To be quite honest I don't trust Bush or Kerry. I hate this election. It's probably one of the worst elections in history, and of course it's my first one to vote for, go figure.

I hope you understand that no one here has intended to insult you, or make you feel stupid. The fact is, if you're going to make a thread about your political views, you can expect people to tear them apart. Especially when you're talking about why you support Bush. Many people here (including myself) are quite passionately against Bush, and feel it is vital to this country that he lose in November.

And by the way, I feel for you on that last part. The choices suck this election, just like they did last time. I have concerns about Kerry's leadership abilities, but I think the damage Bush is likely to do if he is reelected is a far greater risk.

I live in ND, in my state the popular vote does not affect the electoral college appointee's decision. It is decided by the members in the state senate and congress. So, basically, it comes down to who is already in office in my state. My vote in the November Presidential elections literally isn't worth the time to do anything about it.

-Shoe

RammSPOOn Wrote: If only ONE person in the entire populace of the United States that could legally vote Felt it was pointless to vote and thus did not vote, then he'd be right. His vote wouldn't make a difference more than likely. However. When one person feels that way, and then another, and then another, ad nauseum, Then it Does make a difference. I can just about guarantee you're not the only to think that voting is pointless and thus to not vote. The more of you there are, the more your Not voting Does make a difference. Just some food for thought. Now keep this thread spark-free, people. You won't sway the poor guy no matter how much you attack him, so keep it in your pants.

I read this a few weeks ago on a forum I visit. The thing is called "Friends don't let friends vote for Bush".

By the way, before I paste this in here, Hydro, good luck with making up your mind, whoever you eventually decide to vote for!

---

Things you have to believe to vote Bush:

Saddam was a good guy when Reagan armed him, a bad guy when Bush's daddy made war on him, a good guy when Cheney did business with him and a bad
guy when Bush needed a "we can't find Bin Laden" diversion.

Trade with Cuba is wrong because the country is Communist, but trade with China and Vietnam is vital to a spirit of international harmony.

The United States should get out of the United Nations, and our highest national priority is enforcing U.N. resolutions against Iraq.

A woman can't be trusted with decisions about her own body, but multi-national corporations can make decisions affecting all mankind without regulation.

Jesus loves you, and shares your hatred of homosexuals and Hillary Clinton.

The best way to improve military morale is to praise the troops in speeches while slashing veterans' benefits and combat pay.

If condoms are kept out of schools, adolescents won't have sex.

A good way to fight terrorism is to belittle our long-time allies, then demand their cooperation and money.

Providing health care to all Iraqis is sound policy. Providing health care to all Americans is socialism.

HMOs and insurance companies have the best interests of the public at heart.

Global warming and tobacco's link to cancer are junk science, but Creationism should be taught in schools.

A president lying about an extramarital affair is an impeachable offense. A president lying to enlist support for a war in which thousands die is solid defense policy.

Government should limit itself to the powers named in the Constitution, which include banning gay marriages and censoring the Internet.

The public has a right to know about Hillary's cattle trades, but George Bush's driving record is none of our business.

Being a drug addict is a moral failing and a crime, unless you're a conservative radio host. Then it's an illness and you need our prayers for your recovery.

You support states' rights, which means Attorney General John Ashcroft can tell states what local voter initiatives they have the right to adopt.

What John Kerry did in the 1960s is of vital national interest, but what Bush did in the '80s is irrelevant.

Kerry is a much better choice than Gore in 2000. Of course it's a much easier choice after how bad Bush screwed this country up. But Kerry is a great leader and not so much of Bush Lite like Gore was. See, Gore could have been a good president, but due to the way the right loathed Bill Clinton and took every chance they got to destroy him, Gore didn't want to look like Clinton Part 2. And what a damn shame that would be, modeling yourself after the greatest president in the last fifty years. So Gore came across as Bush Lite while Bush introduced "compassionate conservatism" (and we know now that compassionate conservatism means blowing up countries that had nothing to do with the people who attacked us), and stole the election. John Kerry on the other hand, is not Al Gore no matter how much they try to paint him with this flip-flopper brush.

Speaking of flip-flopping...

Who's the real "flip-flopper"?

The next time someone criticizes John Kerry for being a flip-flopper remind them:

Bush was against campaign finance reform; now he's for it.

Bush was against a Homeland Security Department; now he's for it.

Bush was against a 9/11 commission; now he's for it.

Bush was against an Iraq WMD investigation; now he's for it.



Bush was against nation building; now he's for it.

Bush was against deficits; now he's for them.

Bush was for free trade; then he was for tariffs on steel, and now he's against them again.

Bush was against the U.S. taking a role in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; now he pushes for a "road map" and a Palestinian State.

Bush was for states' rights to decide on gay marriage; now he is for changing the Constitution to outlaw gay marriage.

Bush said he would provide money for first responders (fire, police, emergency); then he doesn't.

Bush said that "help is on the way" to the military; then he cuts their benefits and health care.

Bush claimed to be in favor of environmental protection; then he secretly approved oil drilling on Padre Island in Texas and other places and took many more anti-environmental actions.

Bush said he is the "education president;" then he refused to fully fund key education programs and rarely does his homework, such as read position papers so he will be more knowledgeable on issues.

Bush said that him being governor of Texas for six years was enough political experience to be president of the U.S.; then he criticized Sen. John Edwards for not having enough experience after Edwards had served six years in the U.S. Senate.

During the 2000 campaign, Bush said there were too many lawsuits being filed; then during the Florida recount, he was the first to file a lawsuit to stop the legal counting of votes after Gore took advantage of Florida law to ask for a recount.

On Nov. 7, 2000, the Bush campaign supported Florida county officials drawing up new copies of some 10,000 spoiled absentee votes in 26 Republican-leaning counties that the machines did not read and marking them for the candidates when they showed "clear intent;" they opposed doing the same thing after Nov. 7 when Gore asked for such recounts. Bush dominated absentee balloting in Florida by a two-to-one margin.

Bush said during the 2000 campaign that he did not have a "litmus test" for judges he appointed to be against abortion; then he mostly appointed judges who were against abortion.

In the early 1990s, Bush led a campaign to raise taxes in Arlington, Texas, to build a new baseball stadium for the team he partly owned; he later criticized politicians for supporting tax increases ñ after he got rich by selling the team with the new stadium to a wealthy campaign contributor.

Bush opposed the U.S. negotiating with North Korea; now he supports it.

Bush went to the racist and segregationist Bob Jones University in South Carolina; then he said he shouldn't have.

Bush said he would demand a U.N. Security Council vote on whether to sanction military action against Iraq; later Bush announced he would not call for a vote.

Bush first said the "mission accomplished" Iraqi banner was put up by the sailors; he later admitted it was done by his advance team.

Bush was for fingerprinting and photographing Mexicans who enter the U.S.; after meeting with Mexican President Fox, he decided against it.

Bush was opposed to Rice testifying in front of the 9/11 commission citing "separation of powers;" then he was for it.

Bush was against Ba'ath party members holding office or government jobs in Iraq; now he's for it.

Bush said we must not appease terrorists; then he lifted trade sanctions on admitted terrorist Mohammar Quaddafi and Pakistan, which pardoned its official who sold nuclear secrets to Iran, Libya, and North Korea.

Bush said he would wait until after the Nov. election to ask for more money for the war effort; then he decided he needed it before the election, after all.

Bush said, "Leaving Iraq prematurely would only embolden the terrorists and increase the danger to America." His administration now says that U.S. troops will pull out of Iraq when the new provisional authority asks. Then he said they'll stay "as long as needed" again. Now he's

saying that the Iraqis can ask the troops to leave, and they will. Or is he?

The Bush administration officials said that the Geneva Conventions don't apply to "enemy combatants." Now they claims they do.

Bush officials said before the Iraq invasion that Iraq posed an "imminent threat" to U.S. security and that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and even nuclear weapons; after the invasion, they denied saying the word "imminent" and saying that Iraq had WMDs and nuclear weapons, even though they were caught on tape making such statements.

"The most important thing is for us to find Osama Bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him." - George W. Bush, Sept. 13, 2001

"I don't know where he is. I have no idea, and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - George W. Bush, March 13, 2002

Are you getting tired of this? Well, some in the American military are getting tired of this, too: "The (Bush) administration has an overly simplistic view of how and when to use our military. By not bringing in our friends and allies, they have created a mess in Iraq and are crippling our forces around the world." -Retired Admiral William Crowe, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs under Ronald Reagan

You guys all talk about which candidate lies, which candidate will cut funding, which one will bring a change, which one will do this, do that, blahblahblah.
Face it: These days Republicans and Democrats are the same. They do the same crap, they pull the same stunts, they're both corrupted at some point.
I hear some people are voting for Kerry just to spite Bush? Because he's a change? Because this, that? They don't even care about his policies (mainly because he changes his mind about as often as a woman picking shoes to go with her evening gown) half the time, he's just Not Bush.
We don't need to stay a two-party system anymore. If I recall correctly someone pointed out that Republicans were the Extremists at one time. Maybe it's time for a change, people. There's more than two candidates running. There's more than two parties. You just need to have a little faith, and have a clearer view of what you want done, and then you only need to go out and Find who fits Your Bill. I understand you don't want your vote to go to waste and have the rest of the country elect the "other" guy; I had the same battle with myself when Kalifornia had the recall. Fortunately for us there was Enough of a difference between what the one side wanted to do vs. what the other side wanted to do. The whole country doesn't have that luxury this Election.

So let's try a different tactic: Tell people to not vote out of spite, but to vote for policies, to take maybe an hour of their life to do just a bit of research on who is running, to find Someone Else. Someone Not Bush, someone Not Kerry. Third parties are catching on. Write-ins are catching on. Within our lifetime we will see a change in the way Elections are done, and it will not always be Republican vs. Democrat, and all this will happen sooner if you just think outside the box and urge those close to you to do the same.

The notion is spreading, and all we need to do is help it. More than likely this election will either go Rep or Dem (and once the riots and parades have subsided we more than likely won't notice too much difference), but the supporting numbers for each will have gone down from last election. And they will continue to go down as more and more people realize that voting for Monkey A or B makes little difference: He's still a Monkey. So let's get the monkeys off the podium.

Third parties are catching on... but guess what? You won't see a third party president for at least fifty years. Think of all the people still devoted to the two party system, generally 95% of the voters. It's useless to vote for a third party, especially when we have the worst president in history in the office right now. Vote for a third party, take votes away from Kerry, and watch what happens to this country:

-We will pull out of the UN, turning the entire world against us.

-We will continue to violate the rights of homosexuals.

-A new Supreme Court will be put in place, allowing that will be able to make any law about our Freedoms. The FCC is just waiting to get the okay from congress to start regulating cable television. What's next? Video games? Music? Books? Movies?
-We will continue to let old white men determine what a woman can do with her body.

-Our resources will be spread so thin across the world, the terrorists will have the perfect chance to strike. Imagine a nuclear device hitting US soil, we're done. Not just the US, the entire world. Someone drops a bomb on us, we drop a bomb back. The only thing stopping this from happening now is Mutually Assured Destruction. Ah, but what do you do when men who get a nuclear device have no fear of dying? I mean after all, they destroy the US, if they die in the process, they still get to go to the heavens with their virgins.

This is not the election to get cute and start voting for third parties when we have a guy in office that HAS to go. This guy said it himself that this is his "Crusade." These religious fundamentalists will stop at nothing to get us out of their way of life. Even if it means destroying the world in the process.

It's only "useless" because they all think like you: "OMG it's useless". Stop thinking negatively. I'm only suggesting that you, that we all, vote because "this is the best way to go," not because This other guy's the end of civilization as we know it, because as far as one side of the nation's concerned, we're better off as we stand, and as far as the other side thinks, we'll be better off with the change.
What about the portion that's fringe during election time? The rest of the four years, you say the right things and you'll find that they aren't quite so fringe, they in fact have a much stronger hold than you'd imagine. They just assume it's useless to vote the way they feel is best.

The world will not end if Bush stays in office, and Kerry will not bring about World Peace. Nor vice versa. We've still got time for some Third Party Soapboxing, I say we take advantage of it. It's not about being cute, it's about serving our country in a way that we can. Change will not happen overnight, but it's better 50 years from now than never.

1912. Closest a 3rd party has ever come, for anybody who was curious.

The Bush Apocalypse Theory is an exaggeration, but he can certainly put us on the path of turning the entire world against us.

But believe me, if it meant anything, I'd vote for Nader on November 2. I would have voted for Nader in 2000 had I been 18. But now it's more important to get Bush out of office before changing the two party system. The American people aren't ready to accept a third party. I certainly am, but the majority of the American people are sheep following the Donkey or the Elephant.

Hyuga Wrote: Lieberman hating violent games is a conservative stance. It goes with all of that religious family values garbage. Good try, though. Quirk Wrote: Hyuga Wrote: I'm not much a politics person, but I am voting for Kerry if for nothing more than pure spite for the uber-annoying right wing. I thought you were voting for Liberman? :\

No, I thought I read a post somewhere were you said you were going to vote Liberman. Nevermind.