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mkflegend
06/23/2007 08:45 PM (UTC)
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XiahouDun84 Wrote:
n00b-Saibot Wrote:
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
It seems to me that most of the people responding are simply listing what characters they like and what characters they hate which is completely different from listing what characters are the best or worst.

Isn't that what a favorite character does? They make people think that they're the best characters of a series? I mean, sure, some guys that aren't my favorite make MK great but the fact of the matter is, I'm still gonna say that my favorite character is the greatest MK character because they persuaded me to think that.

One might think their favorite character is the best...but that doesn't make it so. Reiko maybe be one of my favorite characters, but I'd be a fucking idiot if I tried to convince someone he was one of the best characters created. It's about being aware of one's own bias or subjective opinion.


I'll explain why I chose the characters that I did...

- Raiden
I credit the MK team for taking was initially little more than a homage to "Big Trouble in Little China" and making it their own. I don't remember seeing many characters like Raiden in other fighting games when MK1 came out and I think even now (I could be wrong), there still aren't very many. Although he didn't start as one, he's been an effective "mentor" type character who's managed to be more than just that archetype. He's remained vital throughout the story and his appearance has changed...and his recent change is a welcome development that breathes new life into him.

- Sub-Zero
What makes Sub-Zero one of the best characters is how he pregessibely and naturally developed over the course of the series. He started as a neutral assassin, loyal to his clan....became a rogue ninja, doing his own thing....to sort of an outsider hero....to a leader and counted among one of the main good guys. They didn't just have an ending said flat out explained "Sub-Zero was evil then turned good." He grew and developed...really one of, if not the, only characters to do this. While counted as one of the "ninjas," he has managed to remain unique and keeps changing his appearance as time goes on. They try new things with him, regardless of how fanboys might bitch ("What? Sub-Zero's unmasked now! That sucks!"...."Why's Sub-Zero so old now? That sucks!"...."Why does Sub-Zero look like Shredder now? This sucks!"). And while characters with ice powers are common, Sub-Zero managed to make it his own and become much more than a mere "ninja who shoots ice."

- until Gamecube's Deception, I might have said Goro
Goro was an effective creation as a fearsome boss character in MK1. They did a good job as presenting him a something to be feared and make you say "Oh fuck" when it came time to fight him. A massive four-armed beast was also a fairly unique creation at the time...might still be. I also give Goro credit because...while in his first appearance he was little more than a muscle-bound brute...when they brought him back, they actually gave him some character and some development. Making him more than the evil muscle. In MK:DA, they also gave him an effective and worthy ending that would've been good closure for his character. Unfortunately, his return in Deception kind of shat on that and his character development...leaving a behind bad taste.

- Shang Tsung
I am no Shang Tsung fan...but I'll acknowledge his worth as a character. While I'm sure he wasn't the first or only character who's power involved stealing souls...it is not an ability I recall seeing often. Even now, when I think of soul-stealing, I think of Shang Tsung first. And that power is an effective one...displaying an evil in a man who doesn't even allow his victims peace in death. In his first appearance, they effectively presented him as a threatening force. An ominous, decrepit old man who floated over the ground when you fought him. Since then he's managed to remain vital and proved to be more than an archetype.

- Reptile
I credit Reptile for starting as a simplistic and rather absurd basic idea...a humanoid reptillian creature disguised as a ninja....and running with it, making him in sort of MK's Gollum. He'sa surprisingly well-developed and somewhat tragic character...one of the few MK villains that one can actually sympathise with. His design has gone from a simple green colored ninja into a the unique looking thing he is now and he's managed to maintain a presence in the story. While he is essentially a henchman...he's developed into more than just that.

- Kung Lao
Kung Lao worked well as a classic archetype: "the reluctant hero." What worked so well is, due to his backstory and history, he is the character that should've been the hero...yet he isn't (ignoring, of course, his presentation in Shaolin Monks which was so cliched and lazy it's sad). His presentation was also very well done...owing I think much of his charisma to the performance of Tong Marquez. The hat was an effective and unique choice of weapon and he displayed a presence and persona that drew attention in a way that Liu Kang failed to. He's also played well thoughout the games and has a unique and stand-out appearance.

- Kitana
Kitana at her core is essentially two pretty popular archetypes: "the reformed assassin" and "the heroic warrior princess." However, the way they're put together and the way Kitana is presented within the context of Mortal Kombat makes her a worth-while character. The fans remain a relatively unique weapons of choice and they give her a stand out recognizability. While she at her core she can be simplified into two basic archetypes, she has developed beyond simply those and is a very well-rounded character who has evolved throughout the story. I also give Kitana credit for (thus far) not falling into very common female character cliches (with the exception of Shaolin Monks, of course). She's, for the most part, managed to remain an individual with her own stake and presence. Kitana is no damsel in distress and we actually got a reversal of the Gwen Stacy syndrome with her and Liu Kang (he's dead...she has to clean up after it).
While granted she recently has started to run out of steam, her abyssmal appearance in Shaolin Monks tainted some of her credibility, and nowhere outside the games has ever faithfully presented Kitana....she still has a ways to go before she gets completely ruined.

- Mileena
Like Kitana, Mileena is essentially a collection of fairly common archetypes..."the evil clone" plus "the jealous sister" plus "the ugly girl who wants to be pretty." However once again, the way they're put together and Mileena's presentation within MK's context makes her a worth-while character. There have been plenty of the types of character Mileena is...but she, in my opinion, manages to stand out amongst them. Like Reptile he is also fairly unique amongst other MK villains as being one of the few somewhat sympathetic villains and her rivalry with Kitana has been pretty well-done. Also, her hidden deformity makes her stand out and while in the early games she was simply a purple Kitana she now has her own & pretty unique appearance.

- Noob Saibot
A very unlikely choice, I'll admit. Obviously, very little thought went into Noob Saibot's initial creation. He was a joke bonus character thrown in for fun. His appearance was simply an all black Scorpion. Yet they took this two-bit joke and decided to make him an actual character; giving him his own moves and a story of some actual relevance...being the first mention of the Netherealm and that storyline. He remained a fairly effective henchamn-type character, until Deception when they decided to have him desire to take his own power. But here's where I start to consider Noob Saibot among the best characters: they revealed he was the original Sub-Zero...thus adding, on top of everything else, a layer of tragedy to Noob's story and character. They took a worthless joke character who in all honesty, should never have gotten the time of day...and made him a well-developed and key character with an effective storyline. Also good about him, is the timing in which they did it. He progressed from a mysterious shadow figure...into a henchman...to a higher-ranking fighter...to leader of this clan...to ruler of the Netherealm. Had they tried to push him as the old Sub-Zero brought back and ruler of the Netherealm right away in Trilogy or MK4 he would've failed miserably. They wisely built him up for it.
(Just want to add a slightly off-topic footnote here: just because they made Noob Saibot into a good character when he was originally created as a joke, DOES NOT mean they should do it with every single other joke, rumor, glitch, abandoned concept, and throwaway character. Just because it worked with Noob and Ermac does not mean they should've tried with Mokap, Meat, or Mimik. It does not mean they should try it with Tremor, No-Face, Skarlett, or Nimbus Terrafaux. They did it with Noob and Ermac and it was funny and clever and it worked. It's done now. No more.)

- Shao Kahn
Shao Kahn is a success firstly in terms of presentation. The successfully gave him a commanding and fearsome presence...not just in looks, but in how he acted. Taunting you during your fight with that deep bassy voice. More importantly though, while Shao Kahn at first glance can be written off as a standard evil megalomaniac trying to rule the world, we've gotten indications that there is more to him than that. And also, usually a character Kahn's size is merely all brawn and no brains, but we often see him utilize strategy and cunning in his ambitions....however, he is more than willing to break someone with his own hands if need be.

- Quan Chi
Quan Chi is a character they did a good job at presenting as a true intellectual threat. He follows a pattern of creepy evil albinos, but manages to hold his own as a stand-out character. From his subdued appearance in Mythologies, in which they nicely intergrated him into the backstory they established Quan Chi as the thinking villain very well. They wisely protected his credibility by showing him almost constantly have a back-up plan and gave him a uniquely sadistic and nihilistic motivation as opposed to other villains who simply seek to dominate....as seen in Baraka's MK Gold ending.

- Kenshi
An interesting concept...a blind fighter. Solid backstory, personality, good design, and good execution.

- Bo' Rai Cho
I personally am not that into Bo' Rai Cho. Doesn't paticularly interest me and I've never been into playing as him. However, I cannot deny that he a well put together and quality character. He's an effective variation of the classic "mentor" archetype, and yet still has his own motivation and individual purpose in the story. He adds comic relief, but also still moves the story forward....unlike Johnny Cage. His design is solid and I doubt you're going to find many other characters like Bo' Rai Cho in other video games which usually, when presenting older martial arts masters/trainers, follow the very common Pai Mei-like model.

- Drahmin
I count Drahmin because they took what could've been a very simplistic and basic concept..."the psychotic bloodthirsty monster"....and actually took the time and effort into making him an actual character. They could very easily have simply left Drahmin as "some crazy demon from the Netherealm that likes to kill people." But they gave him a developed backstory (and a good one too, IMO)...an individual presense (one of the chief torturors in the Netherealm)...and they gave him defining quirks (such as having to channel his rage into his mask in order to maintain some kind of control over himself, among other things). Drahmin is a quality character that could very easily had been just a simple throwaway or another Baraka.

- Hotaru
A solid concept with a driving motivation and distinct personality. What's good about Hotaru is you don't have to like him. He's a character who offers a point of view that some may agree with and some may not. Although he believes in bring peace and order, he's often seen as a "bad guy" to his overbearing zeal. He's a character that actually had some thought put into his creation and can provoke some thought from the audience by offering a sense of ambguity, which I feel is a good thing. He's also well-designed and plays fairly well in his two appearances.

- Havik
Basically the same deal of Hotaru, only offering the counterview.


...and worst...

- Kano
Kano was a decent one or two time character. A ruthless criminal who found himself drawn into this big war between realms. Good for one or maybe two games. Yet he's still around. He's a low level character who's treated like a major star. He's a shallow, one-dimensional, one-note filler character who only gets special treatment because he had the great luck of being one of the original MK1 characters. And because of that, he keeps coming back. They keep dragging him out. The only thing he ever had going for him is a rivalry which itself was pretty shallow. His design is nothing to shout about...some hairy thug with a metal eye. As a henchamn, there are better characters.

- from MK4 and on, Scorpion
Up until MK4, Scorpion was a decent character. He was a reasonably developed character who was evolving and he had a relevent presence in the story. After MK4, he started to sink. They started to shallow his character and presence and started to put more emphasis on his fanboy-bait qualities. He could've been salvaged, but Armageddon was pretty much his final nail in the coffin. Scorpion is no longer a character anymore. He's a marketing tool. Nothing more. A collection of buzzwords..."hellspawn," "ninja," "revenge," "spikes & skulls"... specifically designed to draw in young fanboys. All Scorpion's missing now are chains attached to his belt. I count Scorpion among the worst not only becaue is he no longer an actual character now...but also because he was once a character. And a not bad one either. And what's worse is, despite how shallow, nonsensical, and downright stupid Scorpion has become...he's constantly presented as this ultra-cool super bad ass.

- from MK3 and on, Jax
Jax wasn't bad in MK2 or MK3. After MK3, it started to feel like Jax was only being kept around so there'd be an African American character. But by MK:DA, he went from being the token black man into being the stereotypical token black man...which is much worse. Not to mention, after MK3, he's had pretty much no story save backing up Sonya and a rivalry with Hsu Hao....which no one cared about. If they do turn Jax evil though and stop presenting him as a comic relief character, he may be salvaged.

- Mimik
This...thing...should never have seen past Trilogy. Okay, in Trilogy they threw in some bonus character who had all the powers of the ninjas....playing along with the fanboy obsession with ninja characters. Now let's compare with his female counterpart...Khameleon had a story. He did not. He wasn't even a true pallette swipe. Khameleon at least had her own color..she wore gray. He did not have a color of his own. It's stupid to have two different characters with the same name. Khameleon had the "K" gimmick name. He does not. No story, no moves, no color, and no name. This "character" should've been forgotten and never thought of again. Yet he gets brought back in Armageddon. And as opposed to Meat and Mokap...who, while crappy joke characters, are harmless and not meant to be taken seriously....this turd might actually get an actual story behind him and might actually have to be taken seriously as a character. For no other reason than for the sake of completion and to appease fanboys who can't get anough jack-offs in masks. The worst character in Mortal Kombat. Bar none.

- Jarek
They wanted Kano in MK4...but didn't want it to actually BE Kano because they needed new characters. So they took Kano, subtract his eye-plate, and you got Jarek. Kira, they at least gave her her own look and an actual backstory and some personality. Jarek was just Kano.

- Reiko
They wanted Noob Saibot in MK4...but at the last minute decided there weren't enough new characters. So they altered Noob's appearance a bit and named him Reiko and gave him a two sentence "story." They maybe could have salvaged this and made Reiko at least an acceptable character by making something of his hinted connection to Sareena. Probably wouldn't have been much, but maybe could've helped. But they didn't follow through on it and left Reiko as a character with no story. THEN, they made "no story" into a "bad story" by deciding he secretly wants to be Shao Kahn. That's it.
.....'nuff said.

- Meat
Meat wasn't even an actual character. He was a bonus costume that Boon decided to throw into MK4 because he thought the fatality corpse model looked funny doing characters moves. So why did this thing get made into a character and brought back in Armageddon? Because fans demanded it. "Hey, Ermac was just a glitch but now he's a good character! Surely they'll do the same with Meat!" At least the MK team was wise enough to present Meat as a joke character in Armageddon. It'd have worse if we were actually meant to take him seriously.

- Mokap
Mokap was just a joke. Not a very good one. The joke characters have kind of worn out their welcome in MK.



Basically, I looked at the characters' presentation. The thought and effort that went into creating or developing them and how effectivly they were executed. Their presentation and context. For older characters, have they remained vital over time? If the character is based on an archetype, do they provide a good variation or twist on it? Do they offer something unique or interesting to the table? Could this character be worth a damn outside of Mortal Kombat?



Interesting list, but I do disagree with you about scorp and drahmin especially. Such a simple character ehhhh, I never liked Drahmin lol. Moloch IMO has more importance but to each his own man.

Mokap you know, this guy IMO is a silly character but not the worst. He's the "new johnny cage" as far as humor, if his ending is canon despite how anyone feels about him his character would have played an important role in MK of late.

Gameplay wise he's soo much better in MKA, in MK:DA he was a joke IMO. I like the special effects moves for him lol, very cliche.

But good post man.


Ermac of Fujin sad I thought these guys were good characters especially the way their story developed from UMK3 Ermac and MK4 Fujin til now.
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Sub-Zero_7th
06/24/2007 12:01 AM (UTC)
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Please explain why you disagree about Scorpion.

About movies and shows that have characters about revenge, how many of them are still only just about revenge? How many of them never develop into something more and never grow out it?

The problem with Scorpion is that his story has been almost entirely about revenge and nothing much else. He hasn't developed as a character, hasn't grown at all. If you disagree with this, please explain how he has developed, because I see his MK4-MKA development worth nothing. He doesn't have the depth and inner conflict that characters like Batman have. He's just a raving lunatic who starts trouble, and if you can't see that, then you don't know Scorpion as well as you might think.

To XD84: I slightly disagree with you about Jarek. While I've never liked him, he's actually a bit different from Kano in the sense that he has enough balls to put aside his differences with Sonya and Jax and actually work with them to take down Shinnok's forces.
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TheGreatGarfield
06/24/2007 02:33 AM (UTC)
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"Best" and "Worst" are very broad terms.

Best fighter...Best Villain...Best Cook...Best Tap Dancer.....Best Love Maker.....the categories are limit less. If you dig far enough, you'd find that each Mortal Kombat combatant is the best at something.

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XiahouDun84
06/24/2007 04:43 PM (UTC)
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Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
To XD84: I slightly disagree with you about Jarek. While I've never liked him, he's actually a bit different from Kano in the sense that he has enough balls to put aside his differences with Sonya and Jax and actually work with them to take down Shinnok's forces.

But that's not the point. It's the utter lack of effort that went into his creation. When they were making MK4, they probably thought it'd be a cool idea if Sonya and Kano were forced to team up against a common foe...but they wanted more new characters. So they made a "new" guy that might as well have been Kano. Won't call it laziness....just a cop-out.
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mkflegend
06/24/2007 06:01 PM (UTC)
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Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
Please explain why you disagree about Scorpion.

About movies and shows that have characters about revenge, how many of them are still only just about revenge? How many of them never develop into something more and never grow out it?

The problem with Scorpion is that his story has been almost entirely about revenge and nothing much else. He hasn't developed as a character, hasn't grown at all. If you disagree with this, please explain how he has developed, because I see his MK4-MKA development worth nothing. He doesn't have the depth and inner conflict that characters like Batman have. He's just a raving lunatic who starts trouble, and if you can't see that, then you don't know Scorpion as well as you might think.

To XD84: I slightly disagree with you about Jarek. While I've never liked him, he's actually a bit different from Kano in the sense that he has enough balls to put aside his differences with Sonya and Jax and actually work with them to take down Shinnok's forces.


I did already man ^^ above before. I just like and enjoy his story, revenge is a powerful tool. His reasons are good enough IMO. At this point, I say he's got a new destiny before him but I do disagree about the raving lunatic starting trouble. How do you see that? Quan-Chi framed Sub-Zero while making Scorpion look stupid..it pissed him off then got suckered into being the Elder God's pawn in MKD and failed, now (if his ending is canon) his family and clan have resurrected. Remember, the pyramid is full of great power with Blaze and all. Now, don't get me wrong I want to see some canon and others not but Scorpion's IMO should be and he should officially become "good" and help earthrealm. Other then his hunt for Quan-Chi(which I don't blame him, he kidnapped his son) I don't see Scorpion holding anymore grudges.

Therefore he should use his new powers, clan etc for good(if it turns out to be canon)

I know you hate the character now, that's fine but I like him still.
smile
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Sub-Zero_7th
06/25/2007 01:26 AM (UTC)
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I know you like and enjoy his story, but that doesn't make it good. What new destiny are you talking about? After all these games, he's still about revenge. You say you like revenge in stories and that revenge is a powerful tool, but you don't understand that Scorpion has very little else besides revenge. There's also the fact that he has not learned ANYTHING and has NOT developed one bit. He's still the same old revenge-driven asshole.

You have not explained to me how he has developed, how he has grown, and you didn't answer my questions.

How do I see him being a raving lunatic that starts trouble? It's very simple. The evidence is in the games themselves.

In MKM: SZ, Sub-Zero told Scorpion that Quan Chi killed his family and clan, but Scorpion didn't believe him. It had to be many years later, in MK4, when the younger Sub-Zero was able to convince him.

In MK2 and MK3, Scorpion went after the younger Sub-Zero and either never found him or got his ass handed to him. Either way, his story was a big waste. This is either due to him blaming the younger Sub-Zero along with the older one or he doesn't know the Sub-Zero he's been after since MK2 is a different Sub-Zero.

In MKSM's intro, Scorpion attacks Kung Lao for no reason. In the Wasteland, Scorpion is about to start trouble with Sub-Zero and then Liu Kang and Kung Lao show up, only for Scorpion to go back to the Netherrealm, which in itself is horrible. And later on, Sub-Zero tells Liu Kang and Kung Lao that Scorpion wants to kill them. There's no explanation why. He just does. Scorpion attacks them, and gets his ass handed to him, even giving them a thumbs up.

In MKDA, Scorpion is constantly chasing Quan Chi and later on storms into the lower depths of Shang Tsung's Palace, WITHOUT using any kind of strategy. This leads to his ass being beaten by Drahmin and Moloch. Btw, I disagree with you about those two. How can you say that Moloch has more of a purpose than Drahmin? Again, please back it up with something that makes sense.

Scorpion didn't get suckered into being the Elder Gods' pawn. He made a deal with them and failed to complete the task properly. The Elder Gods half ass their end of the deal and he takes it out on Taven, who has NOTHING to do with that.

You still don't understand that revenge will NOT bring his family back. It will also likely NOT put his soul to rest and not have him reunited with his family.

Why should Scorpion's ending be the one that's canon? All it does is make his story about revenge even MORE. You say he should officially become "good" and help Earthrealm, but that makes no fucking sense. It'll be forced storytelling, which is of poor quality. Considering how Scorpion's character and story have been retconned, for him to just become good like that is stupid. There's no real development, no progression of sorts.

You say you don't blame Scorpion for being mad at Quan Chi kidnapping his son, which I can understand. However, for a story idea like that to be taken and made canon is just a terrible excuse to make his story about revenge again. Why can't his story take a different direction, one that actually makes sense and would make him into a worthwhile character? Why does his story almost always have to be about revenge? Why can't he see that revenge won't do anything to help him be with his family?

Please explain why he should be the new leader of the Shirai Ryu and what makes him qualified.

None of what you're saying about Scorpion makes sense and isn't backed up by anything other than your subjectiveness and your lack of understanding of his story and character.

To XiahouDun84: I understand what you're getting at. He is pretty uninspired overall.
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mkflegend
06/27/2007 09:13 PM (UTC)
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Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
I know you like and enjoy his story, but that doesn't make it good. What new destiny are you talking about? After all these games, he's still about revenge. You say you like revenge in stories and that revenge is a powerful tool, but you don't understand that Scorpion has very little else besides revenge. There's also the fact that he has not learned ANYTHING and has NOT developed one bit. He's still the same old revenge-driven asshole.

You have not explained to me how he has developed, how he has grown, and you didn't answer my questions.

How do I see him being a raving lunatic that starts trouble? It's very simple. The evidence is in the games themselves.

In MKM: SZ, Sub-Zero told Scorpion that Quan Chi killed his family and clan, but Scorpion didn't believe him. It had to be many years later, in MK4, when the younger Sub-Zero was able to convince him.

In MK2 and MK3, Scorpion went after the younger Sub-Zero and either never found him or got his ass handed to him. Either way, his story was a big waste. This is either due to him blaming the younger Sub-Zero along with the older one or he doesn't know the Sub-Zero he's been after since MK2 is a different Sub-Zero.

In MKSM's intro, Scorpion attacks Kung Lao for no reason. In the Wasteland, Scorpion is about to start trouble with Sub-Zero and then Liu Kang and Kung Lao show up, only for Scorpion to go back to the Netherrealm, which in itself is horrible. And later on, Sub-Zero tells Liu Kang and Kung Lao that Scorpion wants to kill them. There's no explanation why. He just does. Scorpion attacks them, and gets his ass handed to him, even giving them a thumbs up.

In MKDA, Scorpion is constantly chasing Quan Chi and later on storms into the lower depths of Shang Tsung's Palace, WITHOUT using any kind of strategy. This leads to his ass being beaten by Drahmin and Moloch. Btw, I disagree with you about those two. How can you say that Moloch has more of a purpose than Drahmin? Again, please back it up with something that makes sense.

Scorpion didn't get suckered into being the Elder Gods' pawn. He made a deal with them and failed to complete the task properly. The Elder Gods half ass their end of the deal and he takes it out on Taven, who has NOTHING to do with that.

You still don't understand that revenge will NOT bring his family back. It will also likely NOT put his soul to rest and not have him reunited with his family.

Why should Scorpion's ending be the one that's canon? All it does is make his story about revenge even MORE. You say he should officially become "good" and help Earthrealm, but that makes no fucking sense. It'll be forced storytelling, which is of poor quality. Considering how Scorpion's character and story have been retconned, for him to just become good like that is stupid. There's no real development, no progression of sorts.

You say you don't blame Scorpion for being mad at Quan Chi kidnapping his son, which I can understand. However, for a story idea like that to be taken and made canon is just a terrible excuse to make his story about revenge again. Why can't his story take a different direction, one that actually makes sense and would make him into a worthwhile character? Why does his story almost always have to be about revenge? Why can't he see that revenge won't do anything to help him be with his family?

Please explain why he should be the new leader of the Shirai Ryu and what makes him qualified.

None of what you're saying about Scorpion makes sense and isn't backed up by anything other than your subjectiveness and your lack of understanding of his story and character.

To XiahouDun84: I understand what you're getting at. He is pretty uninspired overall.



Also, Scorpion was right there in MK4 to see for himself that Quan-Chi framed him when he confessed openly to Sub-Zero what he was doing...


Well, I like Scorpion's story personally. That's your view man, you feel it's bad I don't.

I'm not saying his is the best in MK currently, but far, far from the worst.

I'm not lacking anything in his storyline, I've followed MK just as much if not more then anyone else on this entire site...

And what's so great about Sub-Zero? He's trying to save his messed up brother which is wayy past saving right now, so is he either dumb or is insane enough to believe he can bring his brother "original sub-zero aka noob now" back from the pits of evil? right....

He became the new master of the Lin Kuei by overthrowing and defeating the corrupted that was in charge of it when he left the clan. Ok, interesting concept but seemed to easy IMO. He's no more worthy then Scorpion is to lead his old clan.

Fact is, when people read of the shirai ryu and lin kuei who are the first two people who come to mind? A la Scorpion and Sub-Zero right?

So, why not make the both of them leaders of their clans. Afterall both make sense enough to work with, despite whether or not you agree with it or not. Scorpion's old clan was DEAD, the incident on the pyramid resurrected the clan and his family. Naturally there has to be a new "leader" so you tell me who besides Scorpion would make a better leader for his old clan? Nobody....

In Sub-Zero's case, he wanted to revamp the clan for good and did so. I liked the concept but my point is who died and said Subby could be the #1 candidate for new grand master? Exactly...afterall there's other members of the clan that are well known unlike Scorpions like Sektor(at the time), Cyrax, Smoke etc, etc.

Yet, Sub-Zero managed to defeat the corrupted old Lin Kuei and take control by starting a new good Lin Kuei of warriors under his command.

If anything, Scorpion's new ending(should it be canon) makes ltos of sense because his story has been nothing more then him running around, seeking revenge, being someones pawn or whatever...


It's time for a more serious rank and story change for him.

Now, if you're not satisfied with my answer then I'm sorry it shows that you don't respect my view which I only ask you to do, not agree with it. wink
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Sub-Zero_7th
06/28/2007 02:41 AM (UTC)
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Yes, Quan Chi did appear and confess the truth. However, before his appearance, Sub-Zero told Scorpion that he and the Lin Kuei weren't responsible for the deaths of his family and clan and Scorpion actually believed him and NOT the older Sub-Zero. What the hell is up with that?

Yes, I know you said you're not saying it's the best in MK nor it's the worst, but you haven't explained what makes his story good. You said you like it, so you must think it's good, right? So please explain to me what makes Scorpion's story good.

You say that you've followed the MK storyline just as much or even more than anyone else on this entire site yet the way you talk about Sub-Zero and Scorpion proves otherwise.

What's so great about Sub-Zero? He's actually progressed as a character and doesn't have the stagnation that Scorpion's story has.

He starts off as somewhat of a carbon copy of his older brother except that he is revealed to have some semblance of mercy and compassion. In MK3, he finds himself fighting alongside the other Chosen Ones and starts to become something of a hero. We see a sign of his patience and perseverance in Smoke's bio, which states that Sub-Zero believes Smoke still has his soul, meaning that even though Smoke is hunting his friend down, Sub-Zero has not given up on trying to save him. This patience and perseverance also applies to Frost and Noob Saibot. Patience and perserverance are important aspects to the Ninja, something that Scorpion greatly lacks.

In MK4, he is definitely a hero and an ally to the other heroes and seems to be valuable ally to them given his knowledge of Shinnok's weaknesses. We can see that Sub-Zero has been forging his own destiny by choosing to become a hero and fight for something noble, which is fitting given his persona.

In MKDA, he takes another step in forging his destiny by defeating Sektor and taking the Dragon Medallion, hence wielding its power and becoming the new Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei. Just to make a correction, Sektor killed the Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei at that time and was about to take the Dragon Medallion for himself until Sub-Zero intervened and battled Sektor for control of the clan.

Surely Sub-Zero's skill and victory over Sektor along with having the strength and discipline to wield the Dragon Medallion's powers shows that Sub-Zero is worthy of becoming a Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei. So you know who died? The old Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei died. Who said that Sub-Zero could be the new Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei? Sub-Zero himself proved his worth.

Unlike Sub-Zero, Sektor, Cyrax, and Smoke have not been given much exploration. Sub-Zero has far more prominence than all three of them.

Obviously when people think of the Shirai Ryu and Lin Kuei, Scorpion and Sub-Zero come to mind, but that's not good reasoning for Scorpion to become leader of the Shirai Ryu. Sub-Zero's ascension to Lin Kuei Grandmaster had a solid development. Scorpion's ascension to becoming the leader of the Shirai Ryu is very random and forced.

You say that Scorpion's story has been nothing more than him running around, seeking revenge, and things like that, which is what I've been saying the whole time, yet you still like his story? Why? And please, no Apple Jacks type answer.

How can a character that lacks valor, wisdom, discipline, skill and intelligence make for a worthy leader? His blind rage is EXACTLY the kind of stuff that the Bansenshukai warns about.

I disagree when you say that BOTH make sense enough to work with as leaders of their clans. Like I said, Sub-Zero's ascension to becoming the Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei had a solid development. It had a smooth flow to it all that made sense for the character. Scorpion does not even have the characteristics of a Ninja, so for him to be the leader of a Ninja clan is ridiculous.

Yes, in his (atrocious) ending, his family and clan are resurrected. You say that naturally, there has to be a new leader, but what about the leader of the Shirai Ryu? Was his resurrection simply denied? Why couldn't he just resume his position? You're asking me who besides Scorpion would make a better leader for his old clan? The answer is anyone OTHER THAN Scorpion.

If you feel that Scorpion is the best candidate to become the new leader as opposed to any other member of the Shirai Ryu, including the leader himself, please explain why. Stop beating around the bushes, because you still haven't explained to me what qualities Scorpion has that make him worthy of becoming the leader of the Shirai Ryu.

Also, if you really do feel that Scorpion is the best candidate, then that would likely mean that the other Ninja of the Shirai Ryu are far more incompetent than he is, which would make me wonder how and why they were not wiped out centuries ago.

I just don't understand how you can like such a lackluster story. It just seems to me that you like it, "just because".

Scorpion may be very popular, but if his various aspects are closely looked at, including overall presentation, I feel that he is not really one of the best MK characters ever made.
Avatar
Sharpeye
06/29/2007 03:31 PM (UTC)
0
I agree with you 95%.Kai was not a Lui-Kang wanna be, he was another member of the white lotus scociety(whitch makes him my favorate MK4 character) and an important part to the story.wink
Avatar
Sub-Zero_7th
06/29/2007 06:26 PM (UTC)
0
Sharpeye Wrote:
I agree with you 95%.Kai was not a Lui-Kang wanna be, he was another member of the white lotus scociety(whitch makes him my favorate MK4 character) and an important part to the story.wink


I don't see how Kai was all that important to the story, especially if you compare him to Sonya, Johnny Cage, and the other heroes.
Avatar
mkflegend
06/29/2007 09:11 PM (UTC)
0
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
Yes, Quan Chi did appear and confess the truth. However, before his appearance, Sub-Zero told Scorpion that he and the Lin Kuei weren't responsible for the deaths of his family and clan and Scorpion actually believed him and NOT the older Sub-Zero. What the hell is up with that?

Yes, I know you said you're not saying it's the best in MK nor it's the worst, but you haven't explained what makes his story good. You said you like it, so you must think it's good, right? So please explain to me what makes Scorpion's story good.

You say that you've followed the MK storyline just as much or even more than anyone else on this entire site yet the way you talk about Sub-Zero and Scorpion proves otherwise.

What's so great about Sub-Zero? He's actually progressed as a character and doesn't have the stagnation that Scorpion's story has.

He starts off as somewhat of a carbon copy of his older brother except that he is revealed to have some semblance of mercy and compassion. In MK3, he finds himself fighting alongside the other Chosen Ones and starts to become something of a hero. We see a sign of his patience and perseverance in Smoke's bio, which states that Sub-Zero believes Smoke still has his soul, meaning that even though Smoke is hunting his friend down, Sub-Zero has not given up on trying to save him. This patience and perseverance also applies to Frost and Noob Saibot. Patience and perserverance are important aspects to the Ninja, something that Scorpion greatly lacks.

In MK4, he is definitely a hero and an ally to the other heroes and seems to be valuable ally to them given his knowledge of Shinnok's weaknesses. We can see that Sub-Zero has been forging his own destiny by choosing to become a hero and fight for something noble, which is fitting given his persona.

In MKDA, he takes another step in forging his destiny by defeating Sektor and taking the Dragon Medallion, hence wielding its power and becoming the new Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei. Just to make a correction, Sektor killed the Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei at that time and was about to take the Dragon Medallion for himself until Sub-Zero intervened and battled Sektor for control of the clan.

Surely Sub-Zero's skill and victory over Sektor along with having the strength and discipline to wield the Dragon Medallion's powers shows that Sub-Zero is worthy of becoming a Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei. So you know who died? The old Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei died. Who said that Sub-Zero could be the new Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei? Sub-Zero himself proved his worth.

Unlike Sub-Zero, Sektor, Cyrax, and Smoke have not been given much exploration. Sub-Zero has far more prominence than all three of them.

Obviously when people think of the Shirai Ryu and Lin Kuei, Scorpion and Sub-Zero come to mind, but that's not good reasoning for Scorpion to become leader of the Shirai Ryu. Sub-Zero's ascension to Lin Kuei Grandmaster had a solid development. Scorpion's ascension to becoming the leader of the Shirai Ryu is very random and forced.

You say that Scorpion's story has been nothing more than him running around, seeking revenge, and things like that, which is what I've been saying the whole time, yet you still like his story? Why? And please, no Apple Jacks type answer.

How can a character that lacks valor, wisdom, discipline, skill and intelligence make for a worthy leader? His blind rage is EXACTLY the kind of stuff that the Bansenshukai warns about.

I disagree when you say that BOTH make sense enough to work with as leaders of their clans. Like I said, Sub-Zero's ascension to becoming the Grandmaster of the Lin Kuei had a solid development. It had a smooth flow to it all that made sense for the character. Scorpion does not even have the characteristics of a Ninja, so for him to be the leader of a Ninja clan is ridiculous.

Yes, in his (atrocious) ending, his family and clan are resurrected. You say that naturally, there has to be a new leader, but what about the leader of the Shirai Ryu? Was his resurrection simply denied? Why couldn't he just resume his position? You're asking me who besides Scorpion would make a better leader for his old clan? The answer is anyone OTHER THAN Scorpion.

If you feel that Scorpion is the best candidate to become the new leader as opposed to any other member of the Shirai Ryu, including the leader himself, please explain why. Stop beating around the bushes, because you still haven't explained to me what qualities Scorpion has that make him worthy of becoming the leader of the Shirai Ryu.

Also, if you really do feel that Scorpion is the best candidate, then that would likely mean that the other Ninja of the Shirai Ryu are far more incompetent than he is, which would make me wonder how and why they were not wiped out centuries ago.

I just don't understand how you can like such a lackluster story. It just seems to me that you like it, "just because".

Scorpion may be very popular, but if his various aspects are closely looked at, including overall presentation, I feel that he is not really one of the best MK characters ever made.



I'm well aware of that actually, I just didn't feel like going into "every little detail" with the Medallion, how he became a great leader, mentor etc, etc.

The basic concept of my point was said.

It sounds to me man like you're honestly just another Subby fan that hates Scorpion. That's the vibe I get honestly overall. So you don't like Scorpion anymore, you hate the character and what he's become. Ok, so let me get this straight man. Because you feel this way everyone else should? Some how I think Midway would have decided to off the character by now if that was the case.

Yeah, I've read some people disappointed with his current storyline but not nearly to the degree that you're trying to say about him.

So, the revenge concept fails to intrigue you. Ok, well then I'd say to each his own in that case man. Not everyone likes Superman, yet we do among many others right? To some he's the dumbest comic character ever created....do I agree? Hell no but point is, nobody will always be satisified with REASONS for liking or disliking a particular character. You either like the character or not. Now in the case of Scorpion thru out the years til now, you can't honestly tell me that his storyline is more negative then positive despite his MKA ending of late. Scorpion despite the whole fact of him and Sub being pawns of Quan-Chi overall are indeed rivals and enemies because of the clan rivalry.

I mean the hilarious thing is that more people on here liked his MK:DA and MK:D endings over his MKA one which I felt was interesting because considering the fact that his MKA ending(should it be canon) has lots of potential to become something good and big as oppose to "getting beat up by two oni" or being a pawn for the Elder Gods? come on...how is his MKA worse then those two seriously?

Whatever...

As for why Scorpion and why should he be the new leader? Well, I explained why in my previous post now tell me something. Why should he not? Again, who would at this point in the MK timeline make a better leader/candidate for the Shirai Ryu? Afterall, he's a very respectable member of the clan no doubt, he's pretty powerful, he's a great fighter and they never really went into the leader of his clan. Well, despite the fact whether there was or not now there will be.

Besides, they've done this idea with other clans anyway and worked out well.

Kabal:-Newer Leader of the Black Dragon, his Rival clan, the Red Dragon with Mavado as their leader.

Mavado:-Leader of the Red Dragon Clan, rival Kabal and the Black Dragon clan.

Sektor:founded his own clan of the Tekunin, rivals the Lin Kuei in a way and the Special Forces...

So, even if this happens with Scorpion's ending, how is this a bad thing? If anything it'll add more flavor to the ancient clan rivalry. Perhaps even become allies down the line? You never know...although I doubt that will happen.



Not to mention I can't remember meeting anyone on here or of late that likes the both of them since there's that rivalry going on there...

But anyway, lol I don't know what to tell you at this point. You just appear to not be satisfied no matter what I type. I told you in this post and previous ones why Scorpion's story is good, interesting and remember for a while there where would Sub-Zero be this whole time without his yellow counterpart? Did you think of that? On some level, Scorpion made who Sub-Zero is today and Sub-Zero made who Scorpion is today. From the start til now, only thing is now their stories seem to be going in different directions finally.

Scorpion's story thru MK:DA was arguably one of the best ones that people on here, in general talked about besides Sub, Kang, Shang etc all the other popular favorites.

As I've said I can say the same about Sub-Zero what makes his story so good?

Yes, the newer Subby has an interesting story however...if you think about it, it was a free pass to him. A quick NEW way for MK to replace the original Sub-Zero that was corrupted and became Noob-Saibot.

Funny how the first few MK's they didn't even go into detail with anymore siblings of the original Sub-Zero. I would have liked if his story told more about his brother(new and current Sub-Zero) as oppose to a "BTW this is a new Sub-Zero replacing the old one" more or less....that's what it comes down to.

In a nutshell, interesting story between the two brothers but should have had more build up, more details about the second sub in the orginal Sub's bio IMO.

Avatar
Sub-Zero_7th
06/30/2007 12:12 AM (UTC)
0
I just don't see how his story is good and interesting. He's not really worth caring about yet I want to see him turn around for the better.

His constant revenge and lack of development is what bothers me. Scorpion's storyline IS more negative than positive even without his MKA ending. The reason for this is because he's been greatly changed into the type of Scorpion that is portrayed in the MK movies and shows, a 1-dimensional villain who caters to fanboys.

Scorpion and Sub-Zero are not enemies of each other anymore.

Like I said, his MKA ending sets up for even more revenge, something that Scorpion's story doesn't need. Also, the way his story has been retconned, for him to just become the leader of the Shirai Ryu, just like that, comes out of nowhere and feels very forced. With Sub-Zero's story, we get a natural progression of the character into that role.

I already explained why Scorpion should not be the new leader of the Shirai Ryu. He simply does not have leadership qualities as he lacks discipline, valor, wisdom, skill, and intelligence. We're talking about a character who doesn't use good strategy but is instead blinded by anger, hatred, and vengeance. Why should someone like that be made into a leader?

Had they not retconned his story by shoving this garbage down our throats and actually kept the Scorpion I liked, his progression to becoming the new leader of the Shirai Ryu would have been more acceptable. And besides, we've had enough clans like this, especially the Ninja-ish ones. Why have another one? And like I said, any one OTHER THAN Scorpion would be a much better candidate. We don't know how we was perceived by the others in the Shirai Ryu nor do we know his rank.

How is Scorpion's ascension to leader status a bad thing? Like I said, it's very forced, very illogical, and very redundant. You haven't explained to me what qualities he has that would make him worthy of becoming his own leader.

It was Quan Chi who made Scorpion who he is. Scorpion could've just died and been a wandering spirit in the Netherrealm.

Scorpion's story through MKDA was retconned because of MKDA, MKSM, and probably even MK4. It's been changed into an overly redundant, 1-dimensional story about a constantly vengeful ninja specter dressed in spandex who keeps going after the wrong person, which lasts for many years.

I've already explained what makes Sub-Zero's story so good. He has a very solid story and his character has grown and evolved. His story doesn't have the stagnation Scorpion's story does. Sub-Zero is a character who has gone from someone trying to fill his brother's shoes to someone who became a hero and forged his own destiny. He has become wiser and stronger over the years.

Scorpion used to begin to have the potential to become something more until MK4 made things confusing and MKDA cemented on things, changing Scorpion for the worse. Then we have MKSM, in which everything wrong with what Scorpion has become was proudly broadcasted.

What would be the purpose and relevance by having the older Sub-Zero's bio mention about his younger brother when his story in MK1 was about the assassination of Shang Tsung?

As for your explanation as to why you like Scorpion's story, it still seems to me that you like it just because you do. You said in one post that you enjoy the fact that he's taken more of "new dark path" kind of a wild card in the MK storyline, but he's always been a wild card prior to MK4. But then again, given the retconning with MKSM, he's evil. He's become nothing more than a jackass. Why should I sympathize with someone like that? You just kept saying you disagree with me without properly explaining some things.

One problem I see is that you keep bringing up Scorpion's fanbase, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's a good quality character. Like I said, he's become just a very shallow, very gimmicky character catered for the fanboys. I'm not saying that he shouldn't cater to the fanboys, but I want him to also cater to those who care about the story and who the characters are.

I just want Scorpion to stop acting like a child and grow up. He's supposed to a Ninja yet he does not have the qualities of one, so how can he even be the leader of a Ninja clan?
Avatar
Frosty_Man
06/30/2007 04:29 PM (UTC)
0
Like: Everyone except hsu hao and mokap
Avatar
sheeva_man702
07/01/2007 06:31 AM (UTC)
0
BEST
1.sheeva
2.nitara
3.sindel
4.raiden
5.ashrah
6.mileena
7.tanya
8.noob
9.kira
10.jade
11.havik
12.baraka
13.sektor
14.reptile
15.khameleon
16.frost
17.cyrax
18.smoke
19.johnny

MIDDLE
20.sonya
21.kung lao
22.ermac
23.kenshi
24.kobra
25.nightwolf
26.kai
27.kintaro
28.scorpion
29.sareena
30.mavado
31.liu kang
32.goro
33.kano
34.quan chi
35.sub-zero
36.reiko
37.rain
38.chameleon
39.taven
40.daegon
41.li mei
42.darrius
43.shinnok

WORST
44.fujin
45.jax
46.motaro
47.stryker
48.hotaru
49.shao kahn
50.shang tsung
51.kitana
52.jarek
53.kabal
54.blaze
55.drahmin
56.dairou
57.meat
58.moloch
59.onaga
60.hsu-hao
61.mokap
62. I DONT WHO IS WORSE (SHUJINKO or BO'RAI'CHO)



Avatar
mkflegend
07/02/2007 01:03 AM (UTC)
0
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
I just don't see how his story is good and interesting. He's not really worth caring about yet I want to see him turn around for the better.

His constant revenge and lack of development is what bothers me. Scorpion's storyline IS more negative than positive even without his MKA ending. The reason for this is because he's been greatly changed into the type of Scorpion that is portrayed in the MK movies and shows, a 1-dimensional villain who caters to fanboys.

Scorpion and Sub-Zero are not enemies of each other anymore.

Like I said, his MKA ending sets up for even more revenge, something that Scorpion's story doesn't need. Also, the way his story has been retconned, for him to just become the leader of the Shirai Ryu, just like that, comes out of nowhere and feels very forced. With Sub-Zero's story, we get a natural progression of the character into that role.

I already explained why Scorpion should not be the new leader of the Shirai Ryu. He simply does not have leadership qualities as he lacks discipline, valor, wisdom, skill, and intelligence. We're talking about a character who doesn't use good strategy but is instead blinded by anger, hatred, and vengeance. Why should someone like that be made into a leader?

Had they not retconned his story by shoving this garbage down our throats and actually kept the Scorpion I liked, his progression to becoming the new leader of the Shirai Ryu would have been more acceptable. And besides, we've had enough clans like this, especially the Ninja-ish ones. Why have another one? And like I said, any one OTHER THAN Scorpion would be a much better candidate. We don't know how we was perceived by the others in the Shirai Ryu nor do we know his rank.

How is Scorpion's ascension to leader status a bad thing? Like I said, it's very forced, very illogical, and very redundant. You haven't explained to me what qualities he has that would make him worthy of becoming his own leader.

It was Quan Chi who made Scorpion who he is. Scorpion could've just died and been a wandering spirit in the Netherrealm.

Scorpion's story through MKDA was retconned because of MKDA, MKSM, and probably even MK4. It's been changed into an overly redundant, 1-dimensional story about a constantly vengeful ninja specter dressed in spandex who keeps going after the wrong person, which lasts for many years.

I've already explained what makes Sub-Zero's story so good. He has a very solid story and his character has grown and evolved. His story doesn't have the stagnation Scorpion's story does. Sub-Zero is a character who has gone from someone trying to fill his brother's shoes to someone who became a hero and forged his own destiny. He has become wiser and stronger over the years.

Scorpion used to begin to have the potential to become something more until MK4 made things confusing and MKDA cemented on things, changing Scorpion for the worse. Then we have MKSM, in which everything wrong with what Scorpion has become was proudly broadcasted.

What would be the purpose and relevance by having the older Sub-Zero's bio mention about his younger brother when his story in MK1 was about the assassination of Shang Tsung?

As for your explanation as to why you like Scorpion's story, it still seems to me that you like it just because you do. You said in one post that you enjoy the fact that he's taken more of "new dark path" kind of a wild card in the MK storyline, but he's always been a wild card prior to MK4. But then again, given the retconning with MKSM, he's evil. He's become nothing more than a jackass. Why should I sympathize with someone like that? You just kept saying you disagree with me without properly explaining some things.

One problem I see is that you keep bringing up Scorpion's fanbase, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he's a good quality character. Like I said, he's become just a very shallow, very gimmicky character catered for the fanboys. I'm not saying that he shouldn't cater to the fanboys, but I want him to also cater to those who care about the story and who the characters are.

I just want Scorpion to stop acting like a child and grow up. He's supposed to a Ninja yet he does not have the qualities of one, so how can he even be the leader of a Ninja clan?



Well, you know what they say dude. Majority rules right? Which brings me back to my point concerning when a series, character or whatever is complained about "enough" usually something is done.

Example, let's take American Idol for a second. Sanjaya....kept some how getting voted back every week until fans realized that he sucked and had no talent, majority felt that way therefore he was booted finally.

I feel that if honestly man, if you really think about it despite who loves Scorpion and who hates him. If majority of MK fans, I won't say Scorpion fans but MK fans hated him I seriously believe he would not be still apart of the series.

My honest opinion.

Yet, he's a fan fav, always been pretty popular for the most part like his counterpart sub-zero and he's an orignal. I mean even Kano and Sonya still have a descent fanbase and they're not THAT important in the storyline of late. Agreed? Characters like Raiden, Fujin, Ermac, Sub have a much more important role yet Sonya and Kano are still pretty darn popular. Kano lost some I'll admit but Sonya still has it.

I think the fact that Scorpion is also an original is also a concept that can't be ignored despite how you feel avbout the character right now man.

That's fine as I've said that you don't like him, I don't see how he's childlike but hey to each his own man. To me, he's simply lashing out at people who threaten him, his clan or his family.

His MKA ending, I give him every reason to want revenge and his son rescued. I mean Quan-Chi only kidnapped his son, what would you do man?

You're telling me let's just say for the hell of it, if Sub's clan members or let's say Cyrax(if his ending is canon) gets kidnapped, Sub would do nothing?
I don't think so, he would because Cyrax is Lin Kuei. Now I'm just saying, of course we don't know yet if Cyrax's ending is canon but if it is, that's a good example equvilant to Scorpion's case right now except it's his son. Now he MIGHT not kill whoever kidnapped Cyrax, but he'll definitely want to get him back and Sub is a good guy but he's no liu kang, he can be dark also at times(not nearly like his brother but still) Sub isn't one of those guys you mess with if you piss him off.


Still, the concept is similar as a clan is like family in this case.

I think his story has good potential right now, much more then his MK:DA, MKD bio IMO.

Avatar
Sub-Zero_7th
07/02/2007 02:17 AM (UTC)
0
Scorpion being a fan favorite does not make him a good quality character. What do you mean when you say Scorpion is an original and the concept can't be ignored?

Regarding his MKA ending, let me say this again. It only makes his story about revenge, again. Yes, it makes sense for Scorpion to want to get his son back. However, it's not a good story direction for Quan Chi to kidnap Scorpion's son and for Scorpion to continue his revenge on Quan Chi as it does nothing to develop Scorpion's character and instead, it only makes his story even more redundant. Instead, his story should be taking on a different direction, something that gets him OUT OF revenge, not a story that leads to more revenge. This way, we can get some actual progression with him.

To you, Scorpion is simply lashing out at people who threaten him, his clan or his family. What the fuck do characters like Liu Kang, Kung Lao, and Taven have to do with that? They didn't threaten him, his clan, or his family. In fact, Scorpion was the one who threatened them for no good reason. Also, Scorpion either seems to have a hard time telling which Sub-Zero is which or he's just being ignorant about the younger Sub-Zero. What kind of Ninja is this? He's childlike, because he constantly whines about his family and clan, and guess what? Revenge will do nothing to have him be reunited with his family and clan. He hasn't matured as a person and does not cultivate the proper heart and mind, therefore, he is both childish and not Ninja-like.

Take a look at Johnny Cage's story. Before MKA, his storyline was relatively redundant and 1-dimensional like Scorpion's, save for the MK3 story, which was of course retconned by his MKDA story. But with MKA, he actually grows as a character and his story actually begins to mean something. His ending is one of the only few I liked, and this is coming from someone who hated his story in the old days. Unfortunately for him, his progression was a bit too late, and I wish it would've happened earlier.

Scorpion becoming leader of the Shirai Ryu is a bad idea. Let me ask you again. How can someone who doesn't act like much of a Ninja be worthy of becoming the leader of a Ninja clan? We also have to think of his rank. He was likely a Genin, which is a low-level Ninja. How and why would he just have his rank go all the way up to Jonin, especially if the Jonin of the Shirai Ryu would likely be resurrected in Scorpion's MKA ending?

It's not that Scorpion needs to have an important role. It's just that he needs to have real story and character development, not the kind of garbage we're getting with his MKA story and ending. His Champion of the Elder Gods role has much more potential as it takes him in a new direction, one that's out of revenge, and gives him some prominence in the story. It can actually go somewhere good as opposed to the constantly revenge-driven ninja specter, who doesn't act like a Ninja, leading a clan of ninja specters.

Anyway, if we're gonna continue discussing about Scorpion, we should really take it over to that other thread.

sheeva_man702: Chrome would have a ball with you. tongue
Avatar
mkflegend
07/02/2007 10:20 PM (UTC)
0
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
Scorpion being a fan favorite does not make him a good quality character. What do you mean when you say Scorpion is an original and the concept can't be ignored?

Regarding his MKA ending, let me say this again. It only makes his story about revenge, again. Yes, it makes sense for Scorpion to want to get his son back. However, it's not a good story direction for Quan Chi to kidnap Scorpion's son and for Scorpion to continue his revenge on Quan Chi as it does nothing to develop Scorpion's character and instead, it only makes his story even more redundant. Instead, his story should be taking on a different direction, something that gets him OUT OF revenge, not a story that leads to more revenge. This way, we can get some actual progression with him.

To you, Scorpion is simply lashing out at people who threaten him, his clan or his family. What the fuck do characters like Liu Kang, Kung Lao, and Taven have to do with that? They didn't threaten him, his clan, or his family. In fact, Scorpion was the one who threatened them for no good reason. Also, Scorpion either seems to have a hard time telling which Sub-Zero is which or he's just being ignorant about the younger Sub-Zero. What kind of Ninja is this? He's childlike, because he constantly whines about his family and clan, and guess what? Revenge will do nothing to have him be reunited with his family and clan. He hasn't matured as a person and does not cultivate the proper heart and mind, therefore, he is both childish and not Ninja-like.

Take a look at Johnny Cage's story. Before MKA, his storyline was relatively redundant and 1-dimensional like Scorpion's, save for the MK3 story, which was of course retconned by his MKDA story. But with MKA, he actually grows as a character and his story actually begins to mean something. His ending is one of the only few I liked, and this is coming from someone who hated his story in the old days. Unfortunately for him, his progression was a bit too late, and I wish it would've happened earlier.

Scorpion becoming leader of the Shirai Ryu is a bad idea. Let me ask you again. How can someone who doesn't act like much of a Ninja be worthy of becoming the leader of a Ninja clan? We also have to think of his rank. He was likely a Genin, which is a low-level Ninja. How and why would he just have his rank go all the way up to Jonin, especially if the Jonin of the Shirai Ryu would likely be resurrected in Scorpion's MKA ending?

It's not that Scorpion needs to have an important role. It's just that he needs to have real story and character development, not the kind of garbage we're getting with his MKA story and ending. His Champion of the Elder Gods role has much more potential as it takes him in a new direction, one that's out of revenge, and gives him some prominence in the story. It can actually go somewhere good as opposed to the constantly revenge-driven ninja specter, who doesn't act like a Ninja, leading a clan of ninja specters.

Anyway, if we're gonna continue discussing about Scorpion, we should really take it over to that other thread.

sheeva_man702: Chrome would have a ball with you. tongue


No, I mean when I say original Scorpion is an "original character" part of the first few MK's(mainly the first) and those characters will ALWAYS have a fanbase around them or general fans that say hey I liked Scorpion, I liked Sub-Zero. That's what I'm referring to.


As for Scorpion getting involved with the other guys, well like you said before in MK:SM he fights them but they tweaked with the original storyline and as for the Konquest well, I got the vibe that they got in his way and since Scorpion is a badass you don't get in his way. He's not a good guy, nor evil guy(just a neutral for himself guy) meaning he takes no sides, therefore he'll fight a good guy or an evil guy. When Scorpion mingled with those guys, he had no intentions of doing so. Remember, Liu Kang/Kung were in Neatherrealm when they fought Scorpion. I'd say they're on his turf(despite the fact that he didn't stay there obviously) at the time, Scorpion was there first. They on the other hand were on a different mission chasing down Shang and all that.

Did you notice that they put the neutral characters on the side of the baddies in the MKA intro? Scorpion, Dairou are neutral characters going into that.

Concerning the sub-zero gig, well I don't believe it's childlike more like ignorance on Scorpion's part. He wasn't aware as we've seen that the second Sub-Zero at first was the original's brother, how would scorpion know that? He assumed, yes we all know the saying but can you blame him? Aside from the whole Quan-Chi playing the both of them, Scorpion wasn't aware of Sub's brother, the second good Sub-Zero now was he?

That brings me back to my other point earlier on why they should have let in some more insight on Sub's brother, because it even fooled the fans before learning that is was another Sub-Zero all together.

I see what you're saying concerning the "ninja factor" but I do believe Scorpion has the ninja skills. It's your opinion that he's not a ninja or acts like one but he is none the less, they even say this in MK:M :Sub-Zero. Is he an ninja with pure honor? Nope, is he a goody, goody ninja?Nope but he's one none the less.

The undead ninja spectre, he won't have a superman like attitude man. He's undead, killed and seeks revenge.

As for his MKA ending, well I disagree personally. I feel it's much better then being a pawn for the Elder Gods or getting owned by two retarded oni...

His new storyline direction can bring lots of potential and as I've said earlier there's really no better candidates to lead the Shirai Ryu at this point.


Anyway, yeah just post the link to your other thread again lol. But yeah does anyone have anymore best or worst characters, some new ones?
Avatar
Sub-Zero_7th
07/02/2007 11:31 PM (UTC)
0
This will (hopefully) be my last post in this thread regarding the whole Scorpion thing. The thread I'm talking about can be found here.

Since I was the last one to post in that thread, I'll leave it up to you to respond in that thread.

Yes, I know what you're talking about regarding the fanbase.

Yes, the storyline in MKSM really changed a lot, but it's still considered canon. How did Taven get in Scorpion's way? It still doesn't make sense for Scorpion to just want to kill Liu Kang and Kung Lao, especially since they have nothing to do with him. He seems to have acted more like a villain, much like his MK media counterparts, which is really out of character.

I'm not taking the beginning of the MKA intro into account here.

What Scorpion had assumed, for many years I might add, is that Sub-Zero killed his family and clan. The MK2 comic book, as well as Scorpion's UMK3/MKT ending, makes the implication that Scorpion DOES indeed know that the current Sub-Zero is the younger brother of the Sub-Zero he killed in Shang Tsung's Mortal Kombat tournament. However, MK4 and MKDA pretty much retcon this.

I don't know how much insight you need. Sub-Zero's MK2 ending, as well as the MK2 comic book, reveal that he is in fact the younger brother of the Sub-Zero killed in the previous tournament.

If you do believe Scorpion has the "ninja skills", why doesn't he use them at all? Ninjutsu isn't just about stealth. It's also about espionage and unconventional tactics of warfare, NONE of which include blindly rushing in with vengeance in your heart.

You may think that it's my opinion that Scorpion doesn't act like a Ninja, but considering the very little I do know, it doesn't seem so subjective. I am fully aware that none of the Ninja-type characters are really meant to be accurate portrayals of the Shinobi Mono. However, there should at least be some accuracy. Even with the "stereotypical Ninja" character, he/she tends to have some form of discipline and skill.

The reason why I don't consider Scorpion to act like much of a Ninja is because of the historical Ninjutsu texts from the 17th century, namely the Bansenshukai, Ninpiden, and Shoninki. The Bansenshukai states that the essence of "nin" is valor. It mentions how anger gives temporary strength and is not true power. It also mentions an importance of cultivating Seishin (correct heart/mind), and without it, Ninjutsu cannot be properly used. It has to be used without evil intentions. If Scorpion has used Ninjutsu in the MK storyline, it seems to have not been of valorious intentions, hence many failures.

The Shoninki talks a bit about various types of information gatherers employed in the use of Ninjutsu. One type of information gatherer is the Nusubito, who has no moral standards, and the term itself is rather pejorative.

The point is that because Scorpion fails to cultivate the right heart and mind and fails to use Ninjutsu properly, he is not much of a Ninja at all. In truth, because of Sub-Zero's characteristics displaying endurance, patience, and perseverance as well as cultivating the proper mind and heart, he is more of a Ninja than Scorpion is.

In MKM: Sub-Zero, the older Sub-Zero does not like to be called a Ninja and refers to himself as a Lin Kuei warrior. This is actually accurate as Ninja is a Japanese term while Lin Kuei is a Mandarin Chinese term. The concept of the Ninja in the MK storyline was started by Takeda, who left the Lin Kuei and started the Shirai Ryu, as well as created Ninjutsu. So although Scorpion is supposed to be the actual Ninja in the MK storyline, the irony is that he doesn't act much like one, not even when it comes to the stereotypical Ninja standards.

Again, how can someone who doesn't act like much of a Ninja be worthy of becoming the leader of a Ninja clan, especially if his rank were most likely that of a Genin? Why can't the leader of the Shirai Ryu assume his leadership once more? Why does it have to be Scorpion? How are there no better candidates?

The only way I'd accept Scorpion becoming the leader of the Shirai Ryu, and this is a stretch, is if he's developed in a way that makes him worthy of that role. Right now, he's definitely not worthy as he lacks valor, discipline, wisdom, and competence. He won't be much of a leader without qualities like that.

The way you're making out his Elder Gods' Champion role as if he has no free will or something. Yes, he'll be carrying out tasks for them, but at least he'd be in a different direction and one that'll give him prominence in the story. For him to lead the Shirai Ryu would lead to redundancy, not unlike the redundancy of his revenge-based storyline. There would be yet ANOTHER character becoming leader of their clan, something we don't really need.

As for the "two retarded Oni", I can agree on Moloch, but I disagree on Drahmin. Drahmin is far from retarded, and he's worth more than the very gimmicky Baraka, who is nothing more than a 1-dimensional villain.

Now, as for other best/worst characters, I'll bring up Bo' Rai Cho and Baraka.

Bo' Rai Cho is a character generally hated by fans while Baraka is a character generally liked by fans. However, I prefer Bo' Rai Cho over Baraka in terms of character and story as he has quite a bit going for him. There really is more to him than his appearance and demeanor. Many will only see and care about the surface things with Bo' Rai Cho, so they clearly miss the entirety of the character, which is something that I'm sure Bo' Rai Cho would want in his opponents.

So yeah, to those who see only the surface stuff, Bo' Rai Cho will be seen as nothing more than a fat, drunken slob who barfs, farts, and does other silly and disgusting things. However, if really take a look at who he is and what he's really about, it turns out he's this truly skilled and noble martial arts master who simply wants his home realm of Outworld to be free from tyrannical oppression, hence training various Earthrealm warriors. He's kind of like Raiden in the sense that they both go beyond the mentor role and actually take part in battles themselves. Overall, he's a pretty solid character who has been nicely established into the story. If it weren't for him, Liu Kang wouldn't have learned the Flying Kick, the move that was used to defeat Shang Tsung.

Then we have Baraka, who I said is generally liked by people. I'm sure he has his fanbase. The thing with Baraka is that he's about gimmicks. This isn't to say that I exactly hate the character nor am I saying he doesn't have any good or appealing qualities. It's just that he's pretty much just about his surface qualities, namely his look and the fact that he's a bloodthirsty monstorous warrior who has long, sharp metal blades that come out of his arms.

As a character, there really isn't that much going for him. Sure, people such as QueenSindel(TheBitch) argue that they could always do more for his story. Perhaps she is right, to a certain extent. However, why should I care either way? Even if we look beyond the bios and endings and look into the media as well as MKD's Konquest and stuff, what really is there to him, as well as the Tarkatan race? They seem rather simple-minded to me. Basically, they follow the Tarkatan tradition of serving a powerful master. That's it. Sure, some of Baraka's endings have him turning against whoever he's serving. However, he's never really gone and done that, and no I'm not counting the whole switching to Onaga thing either.

His story pretty much comes down to him going from master to master like a cheap 99 cent whore. He of course loves the thrill of battle and to destroy his enemies with viciousness and brutality. Now, Baraka's MKD ending makes it seem like Baraka has some intelligence and cunning, which is great, but it's not really enough to make his character compelling.

In terms of overall presentation, I'd say Bo' Rai Cho is the more unique and more wholesome of the two. Baraka could've been something more had he not been the 1-dimensional, stereotypically loyal and vicious henchman type character. What makes Bo' Rai Cho one of the best is that he has an archetypical base with the elements of his character concept being a nice and unique blend, especially given his appearance, which is something that is not quite common for that of a martial arts master.
Avatar
skillz
07/03/2007 12:55 PM (UTC)
0
my favs and why they stood out;

Sub Zero (mk1,2) - Really liked the fact that he was a ice cold killer. His fatalities were one of the best. His special powers were wicked and makes him unique.

Scorpion (mk1,2 & ultimate) - Looked the same as sub and vice versa, but still with his background story, a ressurected ninja, and his spear move makes him a killer character.

Lui Kang ( Mk2) - I'm saying Mk2 because his dragon fatality, bicycle kick were the things that made him. Also his look improved.I think they did a really good job with him, because he was kinda lacking.

Kung Lao(mk2) - just his look makes him a great character. His hat throw and slice fatality..wicked. Really underrated character imo

Rayden (mk1,2) - An 16th century average japanese villager, but in fact really the god of thunder..protector of earth..can u see the lighbolts in his eyes. Nuff said.

Kitana (mk2) - The look was nice, but her special moves & weapon really made Kitana. Crazy combo's btw

Jax (mk2) - Too bad they messed him up with the rapper look. His look and story was the perfect combo. His moves are simple but still fun 2 play with.

Baraka(mk2,mk4G) - His look was very brute & well designed. His scissor move and lift fatality was perfect.

Kabal (mk3) - Look reminded me of the Mad Max movie, best addition in MK3. His moves & combo's were wicked and his scare fatality..even if I'm not a fan of funny fatalities..was plain dope!

Cyrax (mk3) - great fighting stance, his look & fishnet move was cool. His fatality's were also quality. I'm a fan of predator so maybe that is also the reason why he is in my list.

Fujin - The mythic asian character I missed in MK3. One of the best designs I've seen in MK. Cool Powers...Perfect follow up for raiden.

Kenshi - His look and story was perfect. His telekenetic powers were also a good addition. Best character since MKDA.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This list is from the top of my head. A Lot of other characters are also GOOD, like Mileena, Kano, Reptile, Asrah...all of them were also really fun to play with. But the ones I mentioned are the ones that pop in my head....

The worst chracters?...don't feel to get into them, but Kobra, Striker, etc belong to them.




Avatar
mkflegend
07/03/2007 07:11 PM (UTC)
0
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
This will (hopefully) be my last post in this thread regarding the whole Scorpion thing. The thread I'm talking about can be found here.

Since I was the last one to post in that thread, I'll leave it up to you to respond in that thread.

Yes, I know what you're talking about regarding the fanbase.

Yes, the storyline in MKSM really changed a lot, but it's still considered canon. How did Taven get in Scorpion's way? It still doesn't make sense for Scorpion to just want to kill Liu Kang and Kung Lao, especially since they have nothing to do with him. He seems to have acted more like a villain, much like his MK media counterparts, which is really out of character.

I'm not taking the beginning of the MKA intro into account here.

What Scorpion had assumed, for many years I might add, is that Sub-Zero killed his family and clan. The MK2 comic book, as well as Scorpion's UMK3/MKT ending, makes the implication that Scorpion DOES indeed know that the current Sub-Zero is the younger brother of the Sub-Zero he killed in Shang Tsung's Mortal Kombat tournament. However, MK4 and MKDA pretty much retcon this.

I don't know how much insight you need. Sub-Zero's MK2 ending, as well as the MK2 comic book, reveal that he is in fact the younger brother of the Sub-Zero killed in the previous tournament.

If you do believe Scorpion has the "ninja skills", why doesn't he use them at all? Ninjutsu isn't just about stealth. It's also about espionage and unconventional tactics of warfare, NONE of which include blindly rushing in with vengeance in your heart.

You may think that it's my opinion that Scorpion doesn't act like a Ninja, but considering the very little I do know, it doesn't seem so subjective. I am fully aware that none of the Ninja-type characters are really meant to be accurate portrayals of the Shinobi Mono. However, there should at least be some accuracy. Even with the "stereotypical Ninja" character, he/she tends to have some form of discipline and skill.

The reason why I don't consider Scorpion to act like much of a Ninja is because of the historical Ninjutsu texts from the 17th century, namely the Bansenshukai, Ninpiden, and Shoninki. The Bansenshukai states that the essence of "nin" is valor. It mentions how anger gives temporary strength and is not true power. It also mentions an importance of cultivating Seishin (correct heart/mind), and without it, Ninjutsu cannot be properly used. It has to be used without evil intentions. If Scorpion has used Ninjutsu in the MK storyline, it seems to have not been of valorious intentions, hence many failures.

The Shoninki talks a bit about various types of information gatherers employed in the use of Ninjutsu. One type of information gatherer is the Nusubito, who has no moral standards, and the term itself is rather pejorative.

The point is that because Scorpion fails to cultivate the right heart and mind and fails to use Ninjutsu properly, he is not much of a Ninja at all. In truth, because of Sub-Zero's characteristics displaying endurance, patience, and perseverance as well as cultivating the proper mind and heart, he is more of a Ninja than Scorpion is.

In MKM: Sub-Zero, the older Sub-Zero does not like to be called a Ninja and refers to himself as a Lin Kuei warrior. This is actually accurate as Ninja is a Japanese term while Lin Kuei is a Mandarin Chinese term. The concept of the Ninja in the MK storyline was started by Takeda, who left the Lin Kuei and started the Shirai Ryu, as well as created Ninjutsu. So although Scorpion is supposed to be the actual Ninja in the MK storyline, the irony is that he doesn't act much like one, not even when it comes to the stereotypical Ninja standards.

Again, how can someone who doesn't act like much of a Ninja be worthy of becoming the leader of a Ninja clan, especially if his rank were most likely that of a Genin? Why can't the leader of the Shirai Ryu assume his leadership once more? Why does it have to be Scorpion? How are there no better candidates?

The only way I'd accept Scorpion becoming the leader of the Shirai Ryu, and this is a stretch, is if he's developed in a way that makes him worthy of that role. Right now, he's definitely not worthy as he lacks valor, discipline, wisdom, and competence. He won't be much of a leader without qualities like that.

The way you're making out his Elder Gods' Champion role as if he has no free will or something. Yes, he'll be carrying out tasks for them, but at least he'd be in a different direction and one that'll give him prominence in the story. For him to lead the Shirai Ryu would lead to redundancy, not unlike the redundancy of his revenge-based storyline. There would be yet ANOTHER character becoming leader of their clan, something we don't really need.

As for the "two retarded Oni", I can agree on Moloch, but I disagree on Drahmin. Drahmin is far from retarded, and he's worth more than the very gimmicky Baraka, who is nothing more than a 1-dimensional villain.

Now, as for other best/worst characters, I'll bring up Bo' Rai Cho and Baraka.

Bo' Rai Cho is a character generally hated by fans while Baraka is a character generally liked by fans. However, I prefer Bo' Rai Cho over Baraka in terms of character and story as he has quite a bit going for him. There really is more to him than his appearance and demeanor. Many will only see and care about the surface things with Bo' Rai Cho, so they clearly miss the entirety of the character, which is something that I'm sure Bo' Rai Cho would want in his opponents.

So yeah, to those who see only the surface stuff, Bo' Rai Cho will be seen as nothing more than a fat, drunken slob who barfs, farts, and does other silly and disgusting things. However, if really take a look at who he is and what he's really about, it turns out he's this truly skilled and noble martial arts master who simply wants his home realm of Outworld to be free from tyrannical oppression, hence training various Earthrealm warriors. He's kind of like Raiden in the sense that they both go beyond the mentor role and actually take part in battles themselves. Overall, he's a pretty solid character who has been nicely established into the story. If it weren't for him, Liu Kang wouldn't have learned the Flying Kick, the move that was used to defeat Shang Tsung.

Then we have Baraka, who I said is generally liked by people. I'm sure he has his fanbase. The thing with Baraka is that he's about gimmicks. This isn't to say that I exactly hate the character nor am I saying he doesn't have any good or appealing qualities. It's just that he's pretty much just about his surface qualities, namely his look and the fact that he's a bloodthirsty monstorous warrior who has long, sharp metal blades that come out of his arms.

As a character, there really isn't that much going for him. Sure, people such as QueenSindel(TheBitch) argue that they could always do more for his story. Perhaps she is right, to a certain extent. However, why should I care either way? Even if we look beyond the bios and endings and look into the media as well as MKD's Konquest and stuff, what really is there to him, as well as the Tarkatan race? They seem rather simple-minded to me. Basically, they follow the Tarkatan tradition of serving a powerful master. That's it. Sure, some of Baraka's endings have him turning against whoever he's serving. However, he's never really gone and done that, and no I'm not counting the whole switching to Onaga thing either.

His story pretty much comes down to him going from master to master like a cheap 99 cent whore. He of course loves the thrill of battle and to destroy his enemies with viciousness and brutality. Now, Baraka's MKD ending makes it seem like Baraka has some intelligence and cunning, which is great, but it's not really enough to make his character compelling.

In terms of overall presentation, I'd say Bo' Rai Cho is the more unique and more wholesome of the two. Baraka could've been something more had he not been the 1-dimensional, stereotypically loyal and vicious henchman type character. What makes Bo' Rai Cho one of the best is that he has an archetypical base with the elements of his character concept being a nice and unique blend, especially given his appearance, which is something that is not quite common for that of a martial arts master.


Ok, so yeah what it comes down to is you don't like him which is fine at this point and I do just to save time lol. I'll say a few things but I'll check out your thread man, Scorpion is good for the leader role because I believe his character is changing which I forgot to mention before, yeah he has his warriors on a Quan-Chi chase but his son is kidnapped, personally I think it was silly to have Quan-Chi kidnap his son lol. It's like the Joker telling Batman ha, ha, ha I'm still here and I'm still going to cause trouble. So I don't mind scorpion sending his clan after him.


As for the honor thing, I believe he has his own honor. I mean afterall he didn't kill Subby in MK4 once he found out the truth, that was honorable he could have said I still don't like you and fight or even kill him since Sub was down thanks to Quan-Chi beating him up but he didn't. So I do believe he has some honor, not as much as Subby, Kang, Lao etc but he does have some.


Baraka's ending seemed, too predictable IMO. It wasn't bad but could have been better IMO. Be my queen or die...what a compelling choice lol more or less I liked it. I saw that coming for some reason lol.





Avatar
Sub-Zero_7th
07/03/2007 11:13 PM (UTC)
0
What character change are you talking about? If anything, he's becoming more of a raging imbecile than before, which is very sad.

Quan Chi kidnapping son is part of why I don't like Scorpion's MKA ending. It's silly and leads to more revenge in Scorpion's story.

About the honor thing, I had not really brought up honor. I was talking about other things. Please do not confuse valor with honor. Scorpion has not cultivated the right mind and heart thus fails to properly use Ninjutsu. He didn't even know who his enemy was, which is really sad.

About him not killing Sub-Zero in MK4 once he told him that he and the Lin Kuei weren't responsible for the deaths of Scorpion's family and clan, why did Scorpion not listen to the older Sub-Zero then, especially since he told Scorpion the truth?

Baraka himself is rather predictable. Ultimately, he hasn't really done anything new. There are more interesting and more complex villains that I would prefer to see explored.

Please make your next response about Scorpion in that thread I linked you to.
Avatar
mkflegend
07/04/2007 06:06 PM (UTC)
0
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
What character change are you talking about? If anything, he's becoming more of a raging imbecile than before, which is very sad.

Quan Chi kidnapping son is part of why I don't like Scorpion's MKA ending. It's silly and leads to more revenge in Scorpion's story.

About the honor thing, I had not really brought up honor. I was talking about other things. Please do not confuse valor with honor. Scorpion has not cultivated the right mind and heart thus fails to properly use Ninjutsu. He didn't even know who his enemy was, which is really sad.

About him not killing Sub-Zero in MK4 once he told him that he and the Lin Kuei weren't responsible for the deaths of Scorpion's family and clan, why did Scorpion not listen to the older Sub-Zero then, especially since he told Scorpion the truth?

Baraka himself is rather predictable. Ultimately, he hasn't really done anything new. There are more interesting and more complex villains that I would prefer to see explored.

Please make your next response about Scorpion in that thread I linked you to.


Well, then you should have a beef with Quan-Chi since he apparently seems bent on torchering scorpion constantly after what Scorpion did to him back in Neatherealm.

Scorpion and the original sub were as you know bitter rivals, besides their clans at the time. He wasn't aware that Quan set him up and of course he's not going to believe the old subby.

You mentioned honor with ninja's honor a few posts back that's why I addressed that issue. His storyline is changing is what I mean with his MKA ending, of course he's pissed because Quan kidnapped his son after they were just resurrected. This would piss of almost anyone, in fact you wouldn't be normal if you didn't... lol just think your family is killed years ago, you've lost them. Have a chance to resurrect them, it happens and then the second you get them back before you can even hug them or tell them you love them, one of your worst enemies comes in and kidnaps your son. I don't blame scorpion wanting him dead, I would too. I don't see how wanting the kidnapper of your son dead and have your son rescued a raging imbecile.
Avatar
Sub-Zero_7th
07/04/2007 11:15 PM (UTC)
0
Let me say this again. Please make your next response about Scorpion in the thread I linked you to, not this one.

I don't have a beef with Quan Chi as Quan Chi has a good, solid story and makes for a great villain.

Scorpion and the younger Sub-Zero were rivals too, and Scorpion had been after the younger Sub-Zero in MK2 and MK3. I'm sure he hates him just as much as he hates the older Sub-Zero, so why would he believe the younger Sub-Zero?

I really don't recall mentioning about honor. The essence of Ninjutsu is about valor and cultivating the right mind and heart (Seishin). Please put in some quotes or something that shows that I've talked about honor so that I can clarify that for you.

Again, I'm not saying that Scorpion being mad doesn't make sense.

You said that his storyline is changing with his MKA ending, which, in a way, it is. However, the theme is pretty much the same damn thing, revenge, and this is what pisses me off about it.

Scorpion is a raging imbecile for reasons and examples I have given before. Without knowing who he is really dealing with, he makes many mistakes out of great ignorance. A person who does not have the qualities of valor, wisdom, discipline, skill, and competence should don't make for a good leader. Scorpion has not been properly built up into the role as leader of the Shirai Ryu and for him to truly become the new leader would further ruin him as a character, unless he can greatly change for the better and make him worthy of a leadership role.

So the point you were trying to make was with his MKA story changing and not really referring to his character?
Avatar
Cyber_EV1L
07/05/2007 12:11 AM (UTC)
0
Best:Everyone except...

Worst:Kobra(Some other people have said my reasons),Jax(If Midway gives him better moves,I might have second thoughts),andBo' rai cho(Eh,I just don't feel MK)
Avatar
mkflegend
07/05/2007 08:19 PM (UTC)
0
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
Let me say this again. Please make your next response about Scorpion in the thread I linked you to, not this one.

I don't have a beef with Quan Chi as Quan Chi has a good, solid story and makes for a great villain.

Scorpion and the younger Sub-Zero were rivals too, and Scorpion had been after the younger Sub-Zero in MK2 and MK3. I'm sure he hates him just as much as he hates the older Sub-Zero, so why would he believe the younger Sub-Zero?

I really don't recall mentioning about honor. The essence of Ninjutsu is about valor and cultivating the right mind and heart (Seishin). Please put in some quotes or something that shows that I've talked about honor so that I can clarify that for you.

Again, I'm not saying that Scorpion being mad doesn't make sense.

You said that his storyline is changing with his MKA ending, which, in a way, it is. However, the theme is pretty much the same damn thing, revenge, and this is what pisses me off about it.

Scorpion is a raging imbecile for reasons and examples I have given before. Without knowing who he is really dealing with, he makes many mistakes out of great ignorance. A person who does not have the qualities of valor, wisdom, discipline, skill, and competence should don't make for a good leader. Scorpion has not been properly built up into the role as leader of the Shirai Ryu and for him to truly become the new leader would further ruin him as a character, unless he can greatly change for the better and make him worthy of a leadership role.

So the point you were trying to make was with his MKA story changing and not really referring to his character?


I see what you're saying about the revenge plot but again, I think in this case Scorpion really has a good reason. As I've said, he kidnapped his son and wants him back obviously. Well, I think Scorpion not knowing what he's dealing with goes for a lot of warriors in MK personally but then again in his case he's an undead spectre. He CAN'T die and keeps coming back, he's already technically dead so I don't see how or why he should be careful. I mean how many times have we seen him get killed now? Yet he keeps coming back again and again lol.

Well, his MKA story obviously effects the character but in MKD and MK:DA his character his character wasn't about revenge really. In one, he was defeated by two oni that worked for Quan-Chi to give him protection from Scorpion then hurled him into the soulnado, then he winded up in the void of the elder gods. Then he becomes their puppet more or less, yes he had free will etc, etc but he's still doing their bidding in the MKD storyline and failed as we all know now since Jinko apparently got the job done. IN MKD he was on a mission and it wasn't to destroy or go after Quan-Chi, it was to destroy Onaga.

Now, he fights blaze like everyone else and then afterwards his family/clan gets resurrected then Quan-Chi comes in and takes his kid. Scorpion at this point probably forgot or didn't give a crap about revenge or Quan, yet Quan-Chi comes in out of nowhere...which makes no sense IMO given his own situation lol and takes Scorpion's kid. I don't see that as a raging imbecile.

The honor thing you mentioned it a few posts back besides the valor.

I believe in this stage, Scorpion should be the new leader. I believe his family and clan will give him a better perspective in MK8 on.
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