As every mk3 character, Ermac 's popularity pales compared to the Cages, Jaxes, Sonyas, Liu Kangs, Goros and Kung Laos. (and I am willingly omitting the BFGs of popularity Scorpion, Sub-zero, Raiden, Kitana and Mileena).
And Ermac's popularity is a couple of googleplexes greater than any MK Deception characters.

As a fighting game, MKX needs first and foremost to appeal the casual audience. Ask who Scorpion is, and you'll get an answer. Ask who Dairou is without googling it, and no one will answer. Simple as that.

Secondly, it needs to appeal the competitive scene. And trust me, most competitive players wants their mains back.

Lastly, come the MK nerds like us.

As you can see we are the least important ring of the chain.
Ed Boon and his team have priorities, they know how to do their job.

PS: most fan creations suck, the fanfiction and fan redesign of Drahmin that I saw and am aware of really suck, imo.
So again, it is just a matter of opinions.

PPS: MK Deception sold 1,6 million copies in the first year, less than Deadly Alliance which sold 2,2 million. MK 9 sold 3 million. MK VS DC sold 1,8 million. Shaolin Monks 1,5 and Armageddon 1 million.

Deception is not even the best selling 3D game.

Deception actually sold over 2 million copies worldwide, according to reporting news outlets from October-November 2005, putting it fourth on the list of best selling MK games (soon to be fifth, from the looks of it).

My point with Ermac is a character's merit is based almost entirely on the amount of work the developers are willing to put in, while its popularity is entirely subjective.

Scorpion maintained very little development between 1995 and 2002, and yet his popularity steadily rose. Contrarily, Sub-Zero's development increased drastically, with a new look and subplot in MK3, and his own video game in 1997, and a new side character added to his story plot in 2002's Deadly Alliance. Yet, his popularity hardly increased compared to Scorpion's.

Nonetheless, Sub-Zero remains one of the most well developed characters in the series. I've always preferred Sub-Zero to Scorpion for this very reason. As you can clearly see, merit and popularity are NOT the same.


I'm not asking for hardcore MK nerds to be pleased. I'm asking for consistency. I'm tired of hearing Boon mention how terrible certain characters are while doing nothing to change it. I'm tired of seeing the same 14 characters in every game, despite there being over 70 characters in the series. I'm tired of NRS throwing away half of their new characters - if not more - the day after they are made.

They wouldn't have so many terrible or forgettable characters if they actually worked on them. Now you tell me that isn't a truth.

I compared the sales for the first year, and in that time span it sold almost half a million copies less than Deadly Alliance and barely 100.000 more than Shaolin Monks.
Deception was definitely the best 3D game quality wise, but its sales were slightly less good than the previous game.

What I am trying to explain is that popularity is also a merit.
There are various kinds of merit, popularity is one of them.
You say that Sub-zero has the better story and character development, I'd say that this is true just for the original story. In the rewritten story, Subby went an unnecessary cyberization, a unnecessary revenantization (yeah, I know, the word doesn't exist) and once human again all he did was kill Sektor (something out of character, as Sub-Zero is one of the few characters that usually spares the life of defeated opponents), make peace with Scorpion in the most anticlimactic way, kick some rookies asses and then compliment to them after they begun an unnecessary interrealm war.
You know why Subby has been turned into a Cyborg and into a Revenant?
To appeal the casual audience. It's been countless years that people who never played a MK game after the arcade era asked for a cyber version of Scorpion and Sub-Zero and Reptile.
You know why? Because the casual audience is what sells the most.

About making bad characters look good, it is an almost impossible task, that requires the double amount of time, money and effort.
You say that Ermac was improved in MK Deception.
That is not true.
Ermac has been turned into a totally different character.
Compare his mk3 palette swap with his Deception model.
Hadn't the latter been called Ermac, I bet nobody would have recognized him as the former.
Transforming a bad character design into a good one is definitely a harder job than improving a good starting point.
Yes, you can have your Drahmin, but it will happen in a way that the new design will share almost nothing with the original concept. You can't pretend that Meat with a mace and a Mask is a good character or a concept with potential.
At this point it is more convenient to create something totally new from scratch and leave the old Drahmin as a cameo or a comic book appearance.

Deception was not the best selling MK game and it sold so high because of the Dragon King hype and roaming story mode. I would like to remind everybody that Sub zero is the only character to appear in every single numbered mortal kombat game. There is nothing wrong with new characters as MK3 had a huge amount of new characters and they were all amazing. Sektor, cyrax sindel, nightwolf, kabal motoro etc. After that you got a bunch of dead beat characters. MK4 just has Quan Chi, Reiko and Fujin. MK5 has Kenshi, MK6 has Havik and Onaga, MK7 doesnt count has everybody. MK10 has a good roster of new characters since mk3 with Kotal khan, erron black, dvorah, ferraT, (i could do without the earthrealm kids). I have faith in the MK11 new characters and Im hoping Onaga merges with shao khan as host.

I do feel like the newer games will start focusing a little bit more on the new characters inevitable; however I do think there will always be a place for the classic characters. Sure there might be a game or two where some of the lesser-tier classics (Baraka, Cyrax, Kano) might sit out. But you are always going to have your Liu Kangs and Scorpions and Sub-Zeros.

I think MKX gave them the opportunity to let a few characters (Johnny Cage, Sonya, and Jax) ride off into the sunset and leave their roles to the newer generation. That would make sense story-wise. But these characters are so popular, I feel like we might keep seeing them anyways.

Even if they did allow those characters to go live happily ever after, there are still characters like Liu Kang, Kung Lao, and Kitana, who still seem to have character arcs to complete, being corrupted and ruling the NetherRealm. That's a good amount of classics still having some spotlight.

I'm not really worried about the future. Mortal Kombat can bring back any character, any time they want. All else fails, they can write in a new timeline and rebuild the story just how they want.

NRS has never been great at developing their characters, most of them aside from the original trilogy were one and done save a few. You should actually be happy since there's been a lot of games with most or all classic characters involved (3 out of roughly 10!). And it looks highly likely that this game will be another heavy MK trilogy cast, so not sure what your worry is. They've even made up a bit with some characters who started off as just colour swaps like Mileena, Ermac and Reptile. This gives hope that they could bring back some classics like Nightwolf, Baraka, Kabal, Noob, Smoke, Jade and make them great.

NRS has always been bold in terms of adding new characters actually, but also trying to find ways to bring others back. It's actually people holding on to the past so much that it's hard for NRS to move completely past the likes of Johnny Cage, Sonya, Jax, Kano etc. I actually don't mind that, but wish NRS would be a bit more bold in leaving out those MK trilogy characters and actually develop new ones and bring back some of the one-and-done characters like Fujin, Havik, Hotaru, Sareena, Ashrah, Li Mei, Moloch etc.

You know they will have a collection game at some point - including most if not all again of the trilogy so that's why those mentioned from the 3D era and people who love them should be more worried. They might actually never see the light of day again. Some of the funniest comments are that a character is dead though...NRS storyline is inconsistent and lacks creativity to say the least, I mean MK9 and now this one with the whole timeline shifting. They can easily bring back whoever they want, they don't need a story, but seems like they want to appear like they are doing something that makes sense. So you shouldn't be worried, within the next 2 games, every trilogy character will have been in a game. Only Motaro maybe not.

I actually wish NRS would understand balance regards to old characters (trilogy), 3D era and new, but also what kind of characters. That's my biggest beef and I think a lot of people can agree. Looking at MKX in particular, according how I see it, they had 5 kinds of characters:
- Human / human like: Cassie Cage, Erron Black, Jacqui Briggs. Jax, Johnny Cage, Kano, Kenshi, Kitana, Sonya Blade, Takeda, Kung Jin, Kung Lao, Liu Kang, Tanya (14)
Ninja / robots: Scorpion, Sub-Zero, Reptile, Tremor, Triborg (5)
Animal / Monsters / evil: D’Vorah, Ferra/Torr, Goro, Mileena (4)
Sorcerers / magic / fantasy: Ermac, Kotal Kahn, Quan Chi, Raiden, Shinnok, Bo' Rai Cho (6)

You can disagree with the exact categories and where I put them, but it's obvious that humans dominated and that's putting it lightly. There is too much overlap between them as well. Where it clearly lacks is in the monsters, the ominous, the evil and just unique characters and general creativity in my opinion. So many characters are alike and it's like they don't even realise how much they can do with some of their old trilogy characters and 3d era ones who were actually quite poorly designed and or played terribly in my opinion. Havik is one of them. Has so much potential, looked really silly, fighting was odd, but there's so much there. Story wise and design wise, look at LoR movie at the half-dead army with green skeletons for inspiration. Think how cool you can make him look.

If they can do wonders with the likes of Ermac and Mileena, they can do it with the likes of Havik. Kittelsen at least has proven he can tell a great story with Havik, so how much in a game they somehow do not have the inspiration to do something with him I wonder. Also a character like Baraka, who had a great design in MKX. Really wonder why they left him out. That's my worry, that the Goro, Baraka, Havik, Moloch type characters will most likely never make it back unless it's a collection game and then when they do, it's just one.

I personally hope they rework old characters, especially 3D era ones, instead of a bunch of new characters, but still have a few new ones per game.

I also think they need to make Reptile cooler or have more impact on the story, as hes from MK1 yet hes pretty boring character wise. I don't like playing as him but would be nice seeing him be more impactful.

This. This here.

I wish more folks would be honest about this. Mortal Kombat has SO many bad and underdeveloped characters. Fans need to be open about this and list it as an issue so NRS can take it seriously and address it. It may not be always, but every so often they do listen to the fans.

I am very much hoping the majority of new characters from MKX return. It would be the first time since MK2. Literally.

But sadly, most fans enable it. NRS takes a chance and creates new characters and then the fans crap all over them and then they are cast aside and forgotten about and the cycle repeats. I mean you already have a ton of people angry at the idea that the Kombat Kids may be back...even though they sorta have to otherwise the narrative would be sloppy as fuck. But as long as they get their Johnny Cages and Sonya Blades nothing else matters.

I really try to, but do not get the gist of it.

If newer characters are forsaken into oblivion and forgetfulness of one hit wonders, there is a reason.


Every one has their own tastes, there are favorite and least favorite characters, ranging into openly antagonized ones (Mokap, Kobra, etc).


Just have people ask want they want and want they like more, not what a noisy minority (mistakenly) believe is the best for MK.

Let Ed Boon do his job. Majority of people want their classics back, I am among the majority, you and others are not. Just accept it and stop pretending you are following a greater good or what is better for the franchise because, Again, Ed and his team know what to do.

Mk has never been in a safest place ever. WB and Ed Boon (with high budget) are the safest hands, safer than mine or yours.

If a character is abandoned, there is a reason. Let Hsu Hao or Hotar die for God's sake.

Nice job trivializing my viewpoint into me simply arguing for the return of Hsu Hao. Yeah, no, that's not what I'm getting at.

What we are saying is that it's pointless to keep creating new characters if you're not going to develop them further. Obviously, Ed and his team don't know what to do if they keep creating new characters that obviously don't have any staying power if judging by what you're saying. Characters like Kotal, D'Vorah, and The Kombat Kids are INTREGAL to the current plot of the series and yet you still have people outraged over the fact that Sonya, Johnny, or Jax may sit out a game. I mean would that really kill some of you, just to have one or two of your popular sit out for a game while an awesome character like Sareena or Li Mei or Fujin get a little bit of time in the spotlight?

I mean is that really asking for too much? I'm not saying have a roster full of 3D era characters, not at all, but I don't think it's asking to much for a little diversity. The first leaked roster was great- It had popular characters, fan favorites, 3D era returnees, MKX returnees, and a few new faces. Is that really that horrible for us to want? A well balanced roster? And if they want to keep playing it safe- then stop making new characters then.

There are people at NRS that are paid to study and analyze the reception of new characters.

Usually, the characters that you name "poorly developed" are also characters that failed to reach a good, widespread reception in their debuting game. So, there is no point in developing a character that was unsuccessful. Yeah, MK really gives just ONE (key word) chance to newer characters, it is either hit or miss. If you miss, you are gone for good. I am in no position to judge if this is right or wrong, but considering how successful has been MKX by being the most sold fighting game of this generation, I would say that nobody could blame NRS if this is the case.

Sareena, Havik and Fujin, for instance, are three characters that I like a lot and I really want them back, but what about the rest of the fan base? It is just an opinion, a fact or neither of them?

How can you "develop" a character that majority of the fanbase hates or worse, doesn't care at all? (remember, it is better to be hated than ihnored, Johnny Cage is the perfect example of this).

Up to this point, we do not know for sure the reception of the newer characters. That's the mistake that, in my humble opinion, you're doing. You are giving as a matter of fact that the newer characters are worthy of returning or should be considered worthy of returning.

My idea is that nobody cares for Ferra/Torr (despite being two favorites of Ed Boon), Jacqueline Briggs is considered overall a failure and the same goes for Kung Jin, excluding his brief media exposure due to him being the first openly homosexual MK character.
Cassie Cage became the feminist icon of MK, but other than that she is rather forgettable.
Kotal is considered a Tekken's Ogre wannabe.
D'Vorah has been ostracized by the long time fans due to causing the death of two fan favorites and stealing Tanya's role in the story.
The only two characters that seem to have had a shared good reception/consensus by both long time fans and new ones as well competitive scene are Erron Black and Takeda.

So, on paper, the only characters truly deserving a second chance by a business standpoint are a ninja junior and Billy the Kid. Basically another ninja and another stereotype, woah, MK never ever had those /s.


Of course, this is just me explaining what I found out by digging all the various MK forums in various languages (I also speak Spanish, Italian and Russian), various fighting games communities, reddits, etc. I may be wrong, of course, but I wouldn't be surprised if some new comers would wind up being forgotten as Hsu Hao or Hotaru, hence the example in my previous post that really pet peeved you.

And that happens with every new batch judging by this post of yours where you go even as far as to break down why even the most recent MKX characters are not working. So, we're back to where my last post left off "Stop making new characters then". You're not saying anything new or groundbreaking.

That still doesn't change the fact that some of us want a few curveballs. That's it. End of story. Obviously we don't control what NRS or WB or what anyone with higher power choose to do- but we can voice our opinion and that opinion will be voiced.

And if NRS listens to that opinion and makes some of us very happy, then I'll be willing to know what your answer will be for that.

How is Kung Jin a failure if he was more played than Kung Lao? Kung Jin was in the top 10 most played characters in MKX.
Cassie Cage was the main character of the MKX story and the story was a passing of the torch to her. She was not forgettable.
Even if Kotal resembles Ogre, how is that a bad thing?
I think most fans do not care if D'Vorah killed two fan favourites or in fact if any character kills their character. Was Kitana ostracised when she killed Mileena? Was Shang Tsung ostracised when he killed Liu Kang?

Most of the new characters were mostly well received by the fan base in my opinion, especially Takeda, Cassie, Kotal Kahn, Kung Jin and Erron Black.

They are going to have new characters every new game to:
A) shaking things up
B) finding the new Kenshi, Bo Rai Cho and Tanya, the only three 3D era characters that could be defined as "recurring".

The point I tried to make was that if a character works he will return, even if he/she belongs to the 3D era.
If Ashrah is missing since Deception maybe is because she blown her chance in that game.

So, why should NRS take some useless risk by benching some proved fan favorite and replace them with less fortunate characters?


I bet my ass that Erron and Takeda will be recurring characters, imo.

Time will tell.
Scorpion was Mk2 most picked character and still he skipped 3.
Stryker was top 5 (top 3 according to some) tiered in UMK3, but he never came back excluding the obvious compilation/remakes games.

And there are a lot of similar examples.

When I called Kung Jin a failure I was referring not only gameplay wise, but also design and story wise.
So what's Kung Jin's story? Heck, he is a thief and the only thing he stole was a heirloom with Raiden consent (which is not theft, therefore). He is homosexual but shows no attraction or even admiration toward any male character (Jacqui at least thinks that Johnny is hot, Jacqui and Takeda love each other, Cassie dates boys, etc), heck Liu Kang seems to despise him due to his "proclivities".
His archery is straight taken from green arrow, so it has no originality. His Fatalities are stupid, his Brutalities are ok, his costumes are meh.
If mkx was supposed to be the great breakthrough of Kung Jin, then it was a failure. He has some solid gameplay and is a decent tier character, that's why he is picked over Kung Lao. This reason alone doesn't make Kung Jin better than Kung Lao.


Look, I'm not even a fan of Kung Lao, but he has maybe the most iconic weapon of the MK franchise and one of the most popular Fatalities ever. His design is adequate and his story is good and well centered in the Mk lore. These facts alone make him better than Kung Jin.


I am not even against Kung Jin returning, but not at the expense of Kung Lao (a character that I don't care for, but I know he has a huge fanbase).

Just stop. Stop. You're repeating yourself and as I said before- you're not saying anything new- neither are you saying anything that isn't OPINION.

We agree to disagree. You're only taking bits of what I'm saying and responding to it.

Well, that some character did not return after their first game is not an opinion but a fact.

Ok?

Scorpion probably skipped 3 because his story was practically complete after 2. He was returned in UMK3. I am not talking about tiers. I am talking about how much a character was used by all MKX players with an internet connection. Kung Jin was one of the most used characters in MKX, so that means he was liked a lot because most people pick characters who are their favourite.

I do not care about Kung Jin or Kung Lao. Neither of them are interesting characters to me and I think I only used them to unlock their arcade endings but that does not mean other people did not care either.

You are welcome to your opinions about Kung Jin or any other character but like you said NRS studies which characters did well and the fact is Kung Jin did well. He was used more than most of the characters in the game. Nobody cares about tiers. Scorpion is the most used character in the game and is nowhere near top tier. People mostly play with their favourites no matter how good that character is. Scorpion is used the most because he is liked by a lot of fans not because he fights well. If you think Kung Jin was a failure then that is your opinion but it is clear looking at the numbers that most players of the game disagree.

Wrong. Just because a player picks a character, it does not mean that they like said characters. Competitive players picks characters for their play style not for the look or the story. Heck, I doubt that SonicFox or Hayate know much of the MK lore.
For sure liking a character plays a role in this, but again Stryker was one of the most picked characters in umk3 (above Scorpion, lol) and he is not very well liked at all. Yes, usually high tiers are also the most likely to be chosen by players. It's not a perfect equation, but comes closer than what you think.
Also, Scorpion did not came back in mk3 for several reasons, more relying on the wish of shaking things up. Remember, MK story is not molded after character, but for the characters. If Ed and his team wanted Scorpion in mk3, they would make a fitting story for him.
Also, you keep saying that nobody cares for tier list.

Wait a sec, nobody cares for t......

Ahahah, no please, Ahahah

So why tier lists are made every game and every patch?
Go over Test your Might and write that nobody cares about tier lists... For sure man, that would be embarrassing.
Maybe casual players would not care. But competitive players?

Scorpion has been a decent tiered character in almost every game (excluding the first) he was in, he has iconic moves and Fatalities, he is the icon of MK and its most popular character. He is picked BOTH for his game play and character design.

This would be true, if even popular characters like Fujin and Jade weren't consistently neglected.

If it weren't for MK9, we likely still wouldn't have seen Sindel, Kabal, Nightwolf, Jade, or even Smoke. It took over a decade for fans to see Tanya again, despite asking for her constantly. Fans wanted Fujin and Baraka for DLC, and we got Alien and Leatherface instead.

The issue is the characters of MK1 & 2 are explicitly prioritized, regardless of actual fan request. NRS sticks with those 14 characters because it's easier to handle. Very few of those characters are actually have peak popularity.

I know the difference between opinion and fact. The fact is NRS has always neglected the development of their characters. You'd have to be in denial to say otherwise.

The kast of MK1-3 is the essence of MK. Only a few 3rd characters merit existence next to them (Kenshi and Quan Chi).

And yes, Stryker is more valuable than Havik.

Unpopular opinion: Some MK fans are still stuck in the 90's thinking only the original characters and some good (read: in their minds) 3D era characters should be in there. I think now some 3D era characters will be in the story as cameos and that's all we'll see with them unfortunately. I never really got half the hate for the 3D era games. But in regards to characters, it's all subjective..

Fujin is not a popular character.
He is a great character for concept, design, game play, powers and badassery. But not popular.
Scorpion is popular. Not Fujin.

I copy-paste the definition of "popular" because we're discussing semantics now:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/popular

None of the definitions above fit Fujin in any way.

In YouTube videos called "Top ten MK characters" you will not find Fujin. On Death Battle! The MK characters used are Shang Tsung, Raiden, Scorpion, Sub-zero, Shao Kahn, Sektor, Sonya. Fujin never appeared in any MK media, excluding a couple of comic books.
If you ask who Fujin is to the average player he won't be able to answer. Not a single person that knows at least tangentially the MK lore would make Fujin their first call.
So yeah, I seriously doubt you know the difference between opinions and facts.

Jade is one of the most recurring characters, she just skipped MK X, a game that teased a bigger role for her. Also, her presence in MK 11 is a given.
Tanya appeared in almost every game since her creation, with the sole exception of MK VS DC (a game where fan favorites like Kung Lao, Mileena, Reptile and Cage were missing too) and MK9 (a game focused on Trilogy characters).

So, if you wanted to use two examples, you choose poorly.

Guest characters are a necessary evil (rumors say that it is WB forcing them to Ed Boon, but I am not sure of this one), so I would not speak of them, as they basically confirm my theory, that characters are chosen by popularity, not by niche fan demand.