It is stated that Sub-Zero is not shoved down our throats because many of us believe that, unlike Scorpion, he earned the right to be an icon, due to his amazing development as a character over the years.

LMFAO...you do realize you just basically confirmed what I was accusing Scar Subby of, right?

Just like I said: you like Sub-Zero better, therefore you don't care that he's shoved down your throat too. Why not just say that? Why pretend there's any pretense of objectivity here? There's not.

Also, being chased by robots does not equal "amazing character development", hate to break it to you.

Again, I have to agree with ShadowPreacher about Sub-Zero being shoved down people's throats.

Literally every time you see Scorpion, Sub-Zero is right there. In every MK9 promo they were fighting against each other. Only thing is, every time Scorp and Sub fight, Scorpion kicks his ass. Is that why people feel Scorpion is shoved down their throats more? Because he beats Sub-Zero everytime?

I love how they don't even hide their double standard...just try to jump through hoops to justify it.

Like people saying Scorpion is overpushed because he's on the intro screen of MK vs DC. Like seriously, is this for real? Do people like this really exist? So if Sub-Zero was in the intro instead it's ok? This can't be life. LOL

Sue-Zero fans on MKO are outta control.

Anyone who knows me knows I am person of brute honesty.

If I actually felt Sub-Zero was being shoved, I would state it with a passion, like I do for Scorpion.

And for the record, Sub-Zero has had an amazing development, especially storywise. With each game, his story remains consistent and always furthering, without being retconned or contradicted by someone else's story.

His gameplay has also improved more and more throughout the series, from hand-to-hand combat (MK3 being my favorite) to his various special movies. I can honestly say with Sub-Zero, I've always enjoyed playing with him.

And the best thing about him, he's the only character who's ever physically aged!

My only gripe with him is that someone made him white, but he's Asian again, so it's okay.

While I do feel, as I have stated in many other threads, that it is time for MK to have a new icon, I have never denied Sub-Zero's deserving of being an icon. If you disagree, that's cool, but I have no reason to do a double standard.

Scorpion and Sub-Zero fans...
You guys seem to think that the other "ninja" character is shoved down our throats more, when it's equal. So what if they did little things in the games, like in MK4, Scorpion's bio was saved to be the last, even past Goro's, but that is just so meaningless. Or that Sub-Zero was in MK3 and Scorpion wasn't. He got in during UMK3 and ALL updates and ports. It doesn't matter.
Even though I do agree that Scorpion and Sub-Zero are pushed down our throats constantly, neither is more abuse as posterboy than the other.
That's what a lot of us hav been trying to say.

The difference between Sub-Zero and Scorpion is that the latter is a clear creator pet. Ed has admitted himself that Scorpion is his favorite. It's that perception I think that drives people to be more tolerant to Subby.

Lets take the abomination to creation that is Glee. Glee started off with three main characters. Rachel, Will (the creepy teacher) and Finn. At some point after the first 9 episodes Ryan Murphy the creator of the series decided that Kurt (the really effeminate gay kid) was his favorite character and suddenly everything was about Kurt. EVERYTHING. His father marrying Finn's mother was even about him. Any opportunity there was to give us more Kurt we got it. It only got worse when they introduced his boyfriend from another school who eventually transferred so we could see them take over together.

Frankly creator pets are annoying. They're like when you have a family with a few siblings and one is seemingly treated better than the others. Where as Sub-Zero just seems like a character that got popular amongst fans on his own and worked his way up to poster boy it feels like Scorpion was just thrown at us because Boon loves riding that hellspawn spectre dick.

Very well explained, oracle.

And fuck Glee.

I don't watch Glee, but this sounds a lot more like Sub-Zero than Scorpion to me. I haven't been calling him "Sue-Zero" for nothing, you know.

Also, how many people really even know (much less care) that Scorpion is Boon's favorite? Sure, MK nerds like us know, but normal people don't (and shouldn't) give a shit. Why the hell does it matter to people which ninja Ed Boon likes better? I can't think of too many things in this world I care less about.

I know the fanboys on MKO would have readers believe that "the people" chose Sue-Zero and old Scorpion is creator's pet who no one actually likes and we're just stuck with, but the reality is that BOTH ninjas are extremely popular with fans and BOTH have been pushed as the mascots of the series for years. The super fans here are a minority (fortunately) that is also very, VERY vocal (unfortunately) about their agenda for Kuai over Hanzo.

...or even over Bi-Han, who let's face it, is a major reason why the "Sub-Zero" moniker is so popular. It wasn't Kuai Liang who was ripping people's spines out back in MK1, and I seem to remember Sub-Zero being the most popular character (yes, even over Scorp) in those days...

I'm not a Sub-Zero fan (as in he's not my favorite character), but since I was the one who brought up that MKvsDC intro screen example (and many others) I will reply. Here's what I wrote and this time I'll point out some things by bold'ing them:

[copy-pasted text in yellow]

While both of them are poster-boys, Scorpion is still much more shoved down our throats than Sub-Zero. Here are some examples that eventually all piled up and made me sick of Scorpion:

- Mortal Kombat 4 [PC version]:

#1 You put the disk into the drive and the auto-run starts. The installation menu pops-up and in the background image you have Scorpion in the Living Forest. What? Why? Is he the main character of MK4?

#2 When you're in the main menu of the game and the game is idle, character bios start showing up. Scorpion's bio is the last one to show up. Now, I wouldn't have a problem with that, but when Goro's bio (secret character!) shows up after all the other characters' bios EXCEPT Scorpion's I do have a problem with that. What's so special about Scorpion in MK4? Why is his bio "saved" for the end, even after Goro's? Why wasn't Shinnok's bio showed last (final boss) or Goro's (secret character)?


- Mortal Kombat Shaolin Monks:

I might be wrong here, but if I remember well Scorpion is the only character in the game you actually have to kill twice before finally getting rid of him. Why? What's so special about Scorpion in Shaolin Monks? Why is he so important that you have to kill him twice when you only have to kill once everyone else, including Shao Kahn (the final boss)?


- Mortal Kombat Armageddon:

I really enjoyed the Konquest mode of this game. So, you finally reach the last level, Edenia, and you expect to meet Sindel (the queen of the realm), Kitana (princess of the realm, the most prominent character from the realm), Jade (general) or Tanya (villain from the realm). BUT NO! Guess who's waiting for you in Edenia- Scorpion! Yeeeeehaaaaa! You would have expected him in the Netherrealm or something like that, but no, all of the sudden he's in Edenia because he wants REVENGE on the Elder Gods and he wants to kill Taven (lol). Wow! He just had to be the last character you fight before Daegon (the evil brother of Taven) and Blaze (the final boss). If I remember well, he was also the final character you fought in MKSM before the (sub)boss fights, unless you decided not to skip the secret battle before you enter Kahn's arena.


- Mortal Kombat Deception, Mortal Kombat Armageddon, Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe, Mortal Kombat (2011):

In each of these games Scorpion is the default player one choice on the character select screen. Okay, okay, he's the "poster boy", fan favorite etc., but really? Why couldn't it have been Raiden as the default choice in MKvsDC and in MK(2011), after all he's the main character/protagonist in those games and he sure as hell is iconic enough to get that spot. But no, Scorpion doesn't agree!


- Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe:

Game's main menu- you see Scorpion fighting Batman even though it was Sub-Zero who was advertised as Batman's counterpart the whole time. Woooooooow! Even Sub-Zero is not good enough, you're shoving Scorpion down our throats even over Sub-Zero? Really?


- Mortal Kombat (2011):

Yet again you get Scorpion in the main menu animation. Okay, this time Sub-Zero was there too, but guess what, he got punched in the face lol. If it wasn't enough that Scorpion already defeated Sub-Zero in the Kratos reveal trailer...


- NRS logo:

Guess who? Scorpion! Again! ^_^

...

Okay, now some of these things aren't that big of a deal, but when they all pile up after a while, you can get the idea why some (like me, for example) got really sick of Scorpion. And all this was happening during the time when his character starting sinking down the ocean story-wise and really wasn't deserving of all the "extra love".

I do want to say, even with all these issues I have with the character, I still appreciate Scorpion and his "phenomena". I do think he's overall good (great) for MK, no doubt about that. But can you blame me (and others) for becoming sick of him?

I guess my feelings towards the character are bitter-sweet at this point. I still voted for him over Moloch. I voted for Noob Saibot in the 2nd round, simply because I like Noob Saibot more. I put my Scorpion sickness aside. Had he been up against some other characters that won in round 2, he might have gotten the vote from me. For example, I certainly would have voted for Scorpion over Kano, Shao Kahn, Liu Kang and Goro.

Now it could be a mistake in my perception, possibly partly influenced by the fact that I simply like Sub-Zero more, but would you guys agree that Scorpion does get a noticeably bigger part of the spotlight than Sub-Zero? When you take the overall quality of both characters, do you think he deserves it?

With all that said, I'm aware that these two are fan-favorites and thus deserve to be the poster characters more than anyone else, but I would appreciate if the gap between these two and the others was a bit smaller.

So as you see, it's not just one thing, but quite a few that all added up. So it's not fair to just mention one of those examples and laugh about it when my whole post was about all of those examples piling up. I don't know about you, but I haven't noticed Sub-Zero being pushed so hard in places where you don't quite expect him. With all that said, I openly said that I like Sub-Zero more and that it could be the reason why I have the impression which I have. I wasn't being a hypocrite about it, I nicely asked others if they feel the same way. Some agreed with me, some (including you) didn't.

Also, like I said there (in yellow), I'm aware that both are poster boys and they deserve it. I will say that I was wrong in saying "Scorpion gets shoved down our throats much more". That was too harsh from me, but I do think he gets shoved down our throats more than Sub-Zero, OR to put it even better, he gets pushed into the spotlight in wrong places. I mean, look at those examples, don't you agree? Did it really had to be him in Edenia in MKA's Konquest when there was a whole bunch of Edenian characters to put there instead. If Sub-Zero was advertized as Batman's counterpart then why did Scorpion end up fighting Batman in the MKvsDC intro? Batman was a logical choice considering the Batman mania emerging from Nolan films. Flash (Scorpion's counterpart, right?) isn't big enough in comparison to Batman or Superman, but Sub-Zero is big enough in comparison to Scorpion so he could and should have been there if they decided to go with Batman from the DC side. For your information, I would have preferred Raiden vs Superman for the main menu background as they were the leaders of both sides. Oh now I remembered... Even on the Special Edition cover, they merged Scorpion's face with Batman's, not Sub-Zero's.

I just feel sorry for scorpion. It's not his fault he's the favorite of Ed Boon. Poor scorpion.

I thinks it's equal.
MKO first thing you see Subs face when coming to login.

Where, there is Sub-Zero there is Scorpion.

Sub-Zero gets his ass kicked by Scorpion and we have to see that shit.

The Kratos release they could have had Raiden fighting Quan Chi in hell but no we gotta see Sub-Zero get raped.

Even, the little toys have Sub-Zero getting speared by Scorpio. I'm tired of seeing both of them TOGETHER.

Scorpion maybe a tad worse.

But when you get your own VIDEO GAME Sub-Zero Mythologies I think you've crossed the line. Just saying.

Now for my Scorpion rant.

Scorpion has no plot what so ever. Vengeance my ass bro go do something else.

Scorpion always manages to Flawless victory Subby in each commercial, hell even when you cut on the dam game.

Scorpion is the creators pet. Nuff said'

I hate seeing them both. Id rather see sparing between Johnny and Sonya on MK10 than Scorpion and Subs.

I don't understand why it matters who's 'shoved down our throats' the most.

Debating opinions isn't going to get much of anywhere because we all have our own, there's no 'facts' here. You think what you think. Personally, I like both of them even if they are 'shoved down our throats'. I just don't care.

No one's talking about Mileena being shoved down our throats, here, which is interesting. She was a poster character of MK9 and added absolutely nothing to the storyline at all rather than acting childish and dressing skimpily.

Either way, it doesn't matter, guys. Scorpion fans are obviously going to say that Sub-Zero is shoved down our throats, and Sub-Zero fans are going to say the same for Scorpion (in most cases, I guess.)

Just. They're both popular.

Moving on?

I don't think anyone is doubting or disputing either of their mascot statuses. It's more about how people perceive the handling of the characters. Scorpion is essentially the Pikachu of the MK franchise. Most Pokeman fans don't count Pikachu as their favorite Pokemon.

Sub-Zero is like the Charizard(or another red/blue/gold/silver favorite). Not only known to casual fans but also a hardcore fan favorite.

Mileena didn't get this bump until MKD though and then we didn't hear anything from her for two games (roughly three or four years) and then they piggy backed off of her MKD popularity again. Now if this continues for another 10 years or so then yeah that argument would be valid but right now it isn't.

I think it's perfectly valid, as you can tell, I'm pretty sick of her having so much popularity.

But to each their own, I suppose.

Really, I think what they're doing with Mileena is worse than both Sub-Zero and Scorpion.

This is a message board, we're supposed to discuss and share our opinions.

As for Mileena, she has never been shoved down our throats. Hell, she was only promoted for two games, Deception and MK2011, and they're seven years apart.

Not to mention she's only been in four principal games, three if you exclude Armageddon.

If you ask me, the woman doesn't get enough face time.

Nephrite, I'm glad you posted because I couldn't remember who it was I saw that from. But seriously...a loading screen in MK4? And the PC version which like 10 people played? Does this really matter at the end of the day to you?

As for your meatier points...regarding the Scorpion fight in Armageddon's konquest, you knew he was (and indeed, should've been) a boss fight eventually. Does it really matter though, that you fight him in Edenia? How is that being pushed down our throats when Sub-Zero gets a whole level to himself, a boss fight with him and the other members of his ninja soap opera (Frost, Noob, Smoke), and finally gets tacked on to the actual protagonist (Taven), because no one in MK can do anything without fighting either with or against Sue-Zero. (See also, Mavado's ending in DA and Kenshi's story in Deception.) So once again, if anyone is getting extra spotlight it's Subbie, not Scorpion. Now if you want to say Scorpion's motivation was silly in Armageddon I won't disagree with you. This was, after all, the story and game that was SO bad it resulted in the complete reboot of the franchise.
,
As for MKvsDC...since when are Sub-Zero and Batman "counterparts"?! (or Flash and Scorpion for that matter?) Because they appear together in a few promo ads? The 2 characters are absolutely nothing alike. People here read way, WAY too much into advertising on this site. Are Scorpion and Superman counterparts too?

Sub-Zero and Scorpion are the 2 most famous MK characters. Batman and Superman are the 2 most famous DC characters. Now what possible reason could they have had for unveiling those 4 first, and pairing them off against each other? Hmmm...

Now I realize that all the endings in that game had an MK and a DC character switching places, more or less, and I thought it was pretty cool. But you read way, way too much into it if you think Sub-Zero is some kind of crime-fighting vigilante, or Batman is an assassin. Anymore than Sonya and Green Lantern are counterparts, or Kano and Joker. I mean yeah, you can say stuff like Kano and Joker are both crooks, Sonya and Lantern are both in the military, and Sue and Bats are brooding assholes in masks. But these are all only "counterparts" in the loosest possible sense. If you're impressed by any of this, I don't know what to tell you. (and even then, the brooding asshole bit applies much more to Bi-Han than his goodie-goodie brother) EDIT: And I forgot, Deathstroke starts his own Lin Kuei equivalant so he could also have a claim to being Zero's counterpart if you want to read that much into endings, while Bats himself goes all Jax on us.

So, sorry for the tangent, but Batman appearing with Scorpion instead did not spoil the "symmetry" and Scorpion is not being pushed down our throats. Scorpion is THE most popular (and Zero is the close 2nd), just like Batman is THE most popular with Superman as DC's close 2nd. So push come to shove, they put the 2 MOST popular people in the intro screen, and Subbie and Supes get to stay home and polish their silver medals.

Nothing any more or less deep was going on there, seriously.

LOL this whole thing. In the end it just comes down to each individual's perception. I do like Sub-Zero more than Scorpion so that probably plays a part in the way I see things, but then again it's not like I'm crazy fanatical about Sub-Zero either. The ones that I'm a bit more "emotional" (
Well like I said, if you take one case out of the context, no it's not a big deal. But for me all those examples just piled up and that's why I eventually got sick of Scorpion. I think seeing the NRS logo for the first time was the point when the boiling pot just exploded lol. But like I said in the other thread, I didn't let that influence my voting. I still voted for Scorpion over Moloch even though I'm not sick of Moloch, I just don't care about him at all. Then when it came to Noob Saibot vs Scorpion, I simply voted for Noob Saibot cause I like him better. My feelings for Scorpion are kind of a mess, I appreciate him but I don't appreciate the way NRS are delivering him. *shrugs*

I thought every character in MKvsDC had their counterpart, just that some were harder to figure out. I definitely saw Raiden and Superman as counterparts since both were the leaders of their respective sides. Plus, there were those mash-up videos (not sure about the exact name) during the promotional period that featured 1 MK character going against 1 DC character and Raiden was going against Superman, while Sub-Zero was going against Batman. I remember there being a Sonya vs Catwoman video too.

My username is after Sub-Zero so obviously I am a fan of him and maybe you you see me as biased.

However, calling him Sue-Zero in every sentence makes me think you are just as biased in the opposite direction so really your whole argument is just moot to me.

Scorpion is on the logo for netherrealm studios. The friggin company that makes mortal kombat. The company was named after the realm Scorpion is from. Why not Outworld studios? Outworld is a popular realm in Mortal Kombat and was featured in the Mortal Kombat movie and is just as cool of a name as Netherrealm. Want to guess why they probably went with netherrealm studios though? So that they could plaster Scorpion's image on that logo that's why.

I never said that Sub-Zero wasn't overexposed at times. He is yes he is. Not as much as Scorpion though. You can keep arguing, but that's my opinion. Scorpion is on the logo that's all the ammunition I need for this argument.

You'd be mistaken, Scar Subby, to assume I'm biased against Sub-Zero. Although you and the other over the top fans have been doing your damndest to get me to hate him, I have to admit that MK9 was the first game where I actually really liked Kuai Liang (not the mantle of Sub-Zero because I always liked Bi-Han) as a character. I also voted for him over Ermac.

But he displayed some serious Sue tendancies all through Deadly Alliance, Deception and Armageddon. (Ah, 3d MK era, how I hate you so.) Don't blame me, blame Vogel. I don't make the news, I just report it.

At least Nephrite gave some well thought out counterarguments; you just come back with "u call him Sue-Zero so I'm not responding neiner neiner". You could just as easily pretend that I didn't and respond to my other points; you CHOOSE not to. Fine, but you won't be swaying my opinion any nor earning my respect.

And really...a logo? Something that has nothing to with the actual game and it offends you? But wait..let me guess...Sub-Zero on the logo would be ok for "some reason", right?

It's their company. They can call it whatever they want. I actually like Outworld Studios better myself. It's also not my call or yours to make.

Such is life.

Nope Sub-Zero on the Logo would have been just as bad actually. I wouldn't want that. No one single character deserved to be on the logo.

The whole argument though is that Scorpion is being shoved in our faces worse than Sub-Zero and I would say that him being on the NRS logo is being shoved in our faces more than Sub-Zero. That means we get to see a glimpse of Scorpion everytime we turn on any game from NRS even if it isn't related to MK. So yes, I would say Scorpion is definitely shoved down our throats more. I would go as far to say that Scorpion will be in Injustice. I can almost guarantee it in fact.

Also I don't like Bi-Han. I've made the argument before that he really didn't do sh** as Sub-Zero except for get killed and that just added to Scorpion's story. Then Kuai Liang came along and made the rest of the story. He is Sub-Zero. I'm tired of hearing Sub-Zero is a Mary-Sue esque character. He had his flaws, and his story grew progressively. He wasn't some stale crap character that your making him out to be. He was good, and too often people want to see bad characters lately because it's the cool thing to do. He went from being a murderous assassin to becoming a genuine force for good. Sorry you don't like it. That doesn't mean others don't.

Now, continue to bring up Mythologies to me and how Bi-Han murdered gods.

I think it's fairly obvious that the counterpart aspect of MKvsDCU was handled really badly. Jax and Lex Luthor? Really? It was more about how the characters played than anything else.

Well that seems like more a problem that you have with Mileena. Her status as poster girl is still new and really still arguable. It's not with Sub-Zero and Scorpion.

On Batman being equal to Sub-Zero. I can actually see the resemblence here.

Both abandoned their less than do good clans:

Batman: League of Shadows
Sub-Zero: Lin Kuei

Both grow up without parents one way or the other

Batman: Watches parents die in childhood
Sub-Zero: Abducted and raised by the Lin Kuei

Both are quiet and keep to themselves most of the time especially in regard to groups

Batman: Justice League
Sub-Zero: Forces of Light

Both have sidekicks

Batman: Robin
Sub-Zero: Smoke

I mean there are parallels between the two I just don't know if people look to see them. The others in MKvsDC I really can't see. Maybe just based on powers. I could see maybe Kitana and Wonder Woman being decent parallels as well.

Also If I remember correctly the Sub-Zero vignette released before MK9 shows Sub-Zero's parents being murdered. Although that's a retcon, it still gives more credit to Sub-Zero being Batman's counterpart. Hell, even Ed Boon himself said that Sub-Zero is the batman of Mortal Kombat. It's kind of obvious. That's why it made so little sense for Scorpion to be facing Batman. He was not Bats counterpart. Sub-Zero was.

A few of them make sense as far as canon representations go. Kitana and Wonder Woman being the main one that comes to mind. But mostly it seemed to be based off of gameplay.

Baraka and Deathstroke with their weapon stances. Sonya and Catwoman with their acrobatic kick heavy fighting styles. Jax and Lex with their technological doo dads etc. etc.

I've never imagined Sub-Zero as this constantly brooding character though. I always saw him as a Sonya type character in personality.
I actually think I've had this conversation with someone before lol Was it you?

Nah, I don't think so. I haven't ever had this conversation with anyone actually so I know it wasn't me.

If there was a character from DC that I see as a counterpart to Sub-Zero it would definitely be Batman.

I don't really see Sub-Zero being like Sonya. While it has been mentioned Sonya was one of the only earthrealm heroes who actually contacted subz in the old timeline I don't think that they are exactly alike. He is very much a quiet brooding character to me. Whereas Sonya is a more in your face b**ch that will not hesitate to put you in your place. The only likenesses I see in Sub-Zero and Sonya is that they are both good leaders. I take Sonya as this in your face character though, Sub-Zero is not.

Do you not see the resemblances from He and Batman though. I thought that if any of the matchups were obvious from MKvsDC that batman and sub-zero were fairly obvious.

Hell, I'll just list who I saw as counterparts in that game.
Sub-Zero/Batman
Liu Kang/ Superman
Kitana/ Wonderwoman
Raiden/Captain Marvel
Shang Tsung/Lex Luthor
Scorpion/Deathstroke
Shao Kahn/Darkseid
The rest of the cast didn't seem to have a true counterpart. That leaves out Kano, Joker, Jax, Flash, Baraka, and Green Lantern. They were just placed there on popularity I guess.