Dairou killed one person in a an impulsive bout of vegeance, one that anyone could experience.

Scorpion, however, has racked up four revenge rampages. One for Bi-Han, who didn't even do it. One for Kuai Lang, even after killing Bi-Han. One for Quan Chi, who actually did do it, and one for the Elder Gods, and with this one Scorpion was just being a whiny litttle bitch.

It really does seem that Scorpion merely searches for people to be angry with. Much like Nightwolf stated, he needs some serious peace.

If I had to choose between having Scorpion return and having Dairou return, I would definitely choose Dairou. However, since this is for Dairou only, I still say no.

Ya know.

I feel like having mixed feelings about bringing back Dairou or no Dairou. That is the question.

Either yes or no.

Tough decision.

I mean he would've had so much potential. Heh. Guess boring.

No.

That's certainly one way to interpret the story of a cop chasing down his family's killer and murdering him instead of bringing him in...
My interpretation would involve the word "premeditated" on account of manhunts take a little time.



Bi-Han wasn't innocent, you forget that he's the one who killed Scorpion himself.

Also, the whole reason Quan Chi killed the Shirai Ryu was to pay Bi-Han for completing a mission.



Doesn't count. Abandoned both times it was attempted due to mistaken identity or trickery, and didn't even occur in the new timeline.



Again, Quan Chi is equivalent to Darrius, who hired the assassin that killed Dairou's family, in order to manipulate him into going to jail and then working for the rebellion. Dairou just hasn't learned yet.



Well, no one likes how he was written in Armageddon.

All the same, you're trying to make a point that Scorpion and Dairou's stories aren't the same because their personalities are different, but personality and narrative are two different things. Dairou doesn't have Scorpion's short-sighted rage and what happens to them in the sequels branches a bit because Scorpion has been in a thousand times more things than Dairou has, but they still have identical origin stories.

I decided to end Dariou's turn a bit early. 7-2 with a NO. Now it's time for Darrius:

Just like with Dairou, I see no reason for any Orderrealm characters to come back for the next game unless for some mysterious reason, Orderrealm is to have a purpose in the story. But if this character is to make a return, he needs a definite makeover pronto. I did not like anything about this character at ALL, from the moves to the appearance... It's a no from me but if he was to return in future games, he definitely needs to have something done with him... I mean just look at his Armageddon ending.

Like with Dairou, I say no for the next game, for future games, only if they go back to the previous concept of him as the new Red Dragon field leader after Kabal iced Mavado.

No for Darrius.

Like his moves, but I don't see him being in MK10.

No for Darrius.

Darrius is my second least favorite, after Dairou.

I can't figure out what his character is even supposed to BE.

I THINK Vogel was trying to create a guy that plays to the slick, cool, badass black guy stereotype like Blade, or Morpheus from the Matrix, or Samuel L. Jackson. The problem is, that would only work if Darrius, y'know, had a lot of dialogue to show what a slick-talkin' smooth operator he is or something.

Or maybe, given the alt costume based on Jim Kelly in Enter the Dragon, he's supposed to be more of a 70's style blaxploitation jive-talker like Shaft? I mean, that's almost the same thing, just less modern and more of an homage to the era of old kung fu movies like MK1 did. (Deception was weird that way where they had a couple characters be made in the MK1 "based on old movies" style, like Shujinko and Kobra too, but it didn't fit with the rest of the game's tone at all so it just came off as awkward.)

So theoretically, I mean, IF he were a relatively important character in a modern MK game with a story mode and intro quotes and shit, he MIGHT be way better, because he'd have a chance to show off that personality he's supposed to have.

But still he has problems. His moves, like Dairou's, have no theme and are just a Kreate-a-Kharacter random assortment. And what is up with those goofy-lookin' wristblade weapons? He's wearing them in all his pictures, as though they're not just another weaponstyle for gameplay purposes, they're actually his main canon way to fight? Isn't that kinda aping Baraka's shtick?

Then you have the problem of, the dude's story is COMPLETELY about Orderrealm. He doesn't even leave Seido to fight the important characters like Hotaru did by being in Outworld, or Dairou could by being a merc for hire. Darrius ONLY cares about his little rebellion against order...
...which raises some serious questions about how exactly do people in Orderrealm and Chaosrealm work? These realms aren't "plain old normal planets" like Earth, they're psychological extremes given form, they're more like how Hell is a place of pure Evil and Heaven is a place of pure Good, just minus the "the souls of the dead go there" part. So are the citizens there influenced by the ambient alignment of the realm where everyone in Seido must act Lawful and everyone in CR is Chaotic? Because we never meet any lawfully minded rebels in CR, it's like the whole race that lives on that planet is magically enchanted to have the same alignment...but apparently some people on Seido are like Hotaru, order-fanatics...but others have true free will and don't LIKE Order even though they were born in the dimension of purest Order? That doesn't quite make sense.

Darrius only caring about his rebellion also means he can never be important to any plot ever because no one cares about Seido. I mean, what's the latest conflict between Outworld or Netherealm and Earth got to do with him? The fact that Johnny Cage might train on Seido? Darrius is...what, going to try and recruit Johnny for the rebels? Or become his enemy because Johnny's an ally of the guards? That wouldn't pull Darrius into the plot, it'd pull Cage away from it. That's a problem.

There is, of course, one possible way to save him: as has been mentioned already, in the Deception Krypt, his concept art mentions that he was originally planned to be a Red Dragon member to replace Mavado. I think that would be way better for him. His story could be that the Red Dragons PLACED him in Seido to create the rebellion, so that when the rebels, led by him, took over the realm, then the Red Dragons would secretly be in charge of the whole realm of Seido...which fits them because they're huge on discipline and order.

Aaaand since I said I want to see the Red Dragons involved in Shinnok's invasion...and since this way he could actually somehow be involved with Johnny without pulling Johnny away from the plot...I could actually see Darrius working in MK10.

But after all that rambling, I'm still going to vote NO anyway. I don't really want to, but I think there's an obvious problem with trying to do too many characters in one game.

The ideal roster for the next MK game is somewhere between 25 and 40 characters. We know most of the characters who were in MK9 are coming back because the dead guys will be Shinnok's army. And the very first picks for any new slots should go to characters who were in MK4 or are from the Netherealm, like Reiko, Tanya, Fujin, Kai, and Sareena, because they have the most to do with Shinnok.

So that doesn't really leave room for any third stringers from Seido to join the party. IF Johnny trains there, and that's by no means written in stone, but if he does...I could MAYBE see ONE character from Seido being added to the roster as a result, but more likely just being an NPC cameo, with a chance to become DLC later.

That's actually a really good idea for Darrius. However, I don't think that NRS's story writers will go that far. I don't hate Darrius, but he is oddly put together, and he wouldn't really fit well into the likely story of the next game with the way his character is currently. I'm not against his gauntlet blades, but they could use a redesign. They should be made smaller and sleeker, and his special moves need a revamp. Still, I have to vote no for Darrius.

EDIT: To make it easier to tally I voted NO.
Orderrealm and Chaosrealm were horribly realized and all related characters suffer for it. Darrius, Hotaru, Havik, and Dairou are just shallow C list characters. They're fluff, extraneous, and would likely be better off forgotten or completely re-done. It's a definite no for Darrius from me. It's like NRS contracted out the Seido plot to a middle school Language Arts class.

As with Dairou, I say no for Darrius.

What if...

...NRS completely abandoned the idea of Orderrealm and Chaosrealm as separate realms and merged them into one plot for one realm? Seido could exist like Edenia...a realm with it's own politics and history that is largely totalitarian and based on uniformity and the ideology of order to the point were individuality and expression becomes oppressed. That way the plot lends itself to religious fanatics, revolutionaries, and traitors without trying to establish something as asinine as a literal physical realm devoted to order and chaos. A civil war plot would then become more believable and could easily tie in to the more prominent threads of the overarching series.

This sort of plot isn't original by any streatch as it's common in dystopic future societal sci-fi (like The Matrix, Demolition Man, Equilibrium, Vulcan society in Star Trek etc.) but it's at least a little more cohesive. In that context the crux of the Seidan characters Darrius (the revolutionary), Hotaru (the devout follower of Seido dogma), Havik (the extreme fanatic and anarchist), and Dairou (the turncoat) could play out with better character arcs.

I'd rather they didn't.

The separation of the two is what makes the concept significant. Instead of one world containing polar views (as usual), there are two completely separate worlds with polar views.

To be honest, I would still very much rather the Seido story arc be shifted to a spinoff series, one entirely split from Mortal Kombat, but still containing minor elements of it, such as cameos and vocal acknowledgement.

While the story really doesn't have anything to do with Mortal Kombat in general, it is still a very good concept and deserves to be invested in.

I'd disagree. The seperation of the two (or more specifically, the lazy approach of pitting superficially opposing things against one another as rivaling factions) is what makes the concept comical, two-dimensional, and boring. Or rather, "I'm from Ketchuprealm so fuck everybody from Mustardrealm!"

Razor already pointed out the problems in trying to realize as physical existence the concept of Order and Chaos. It goes well beyond the concept of "abiding the law" and "anarchy" despite NRS failing to execute on that.

What makes having two seperate worlds more interesting than having a more believable more coherent unified realm? Orderrealm and Chaosrealm are philosophical ideas, why do they need to be (poorly realized) opposing realms of existence?
EDIT: This conversation made me remember some action-figures from my childhood called Battle Beasts so thanks for that. My favorite was this guy because he was a DEER WITH A DRILL FOR AN ARM.

Actually, I'd prefer them to remain separate, I just want them to be explained and fleshed out better. I don't want the question of whether or not the citizens are magically forced to be lawful or chaotic to go away, I want it answered. I want it answered in the affirmative, "yes, all Seidans are normally like Hotaru and all Chaosrealmers are normally like Havik...and so here's the reason why Darrius and his rebels are different..."
That's way more interesting conceptually than having another Earth or Edenia-like place where everyone just thinks and behaves like humans, because Edenia is ALREADY fucking extraneous and difficult to deal with for the very reason that the series doesn't need two Earths, which is why it always gets wasted by being the damsel-in-distress planet, the world the bad guys attack first so Earthrealm knows they're coming.

Like I said, Seido and CR are somewhat equivalent to Heaven and Hell, in that their very existence is supernatural. I LIKE that about them. I like that the MK cosmos isn't a collection of planets, it's a collection of supernatural kingdoms like the Norse World Tree or the cosmology of Dungeons and Dragons which is shaped like a big wheel, with a supernatural realm for each of the 9 alignments on the spokes and Earth in the middle.

In fact, acknowledging that idea in MK, that Earth is Midgard, that it's in "the middle" of every other realm, connected to the others as if by spokes on a wheel, with Heaven across from Hell and Seido across from Chaosrealm, would do a LOT to finally explain why Earth is so special that everyone fucking wants to conquer it so badly, why Earth alone would have given Shinnok the power to rule all other realms.

They had hints of that concept in the early days, Kahn would refer to Earth as "the mother realm", or bits of lore with dubious canonicity would claim that normally, opening portals is hard, but Earth has more naturally occurring portals to other realms than anywhere else, making it a cosmic waystation, the perfect place to stage invasions from.

Besides, the most interesting thing about Chaosrealm is the lore and the look of the environment. It used to be a normal place until the God of Chaos (a character I'd very much like to see introduced as a villain) claimed it and made it the way it is. It's not a planet, it's built like Limbo, everything's chunks of rock floating in weirdly colored air, orbiting a giant tornado of glowing energy. You can't lose that without making the realm just another boring Earth-like place, and you can't have that happening to only half of a planet and have the other half of the planet be whole and normal looking and order-y. It wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Another thing to consider is this: The realms are all parts of the One Being, right? Well then why wouldn't there be a whole realm devoted to one personality trait or philosophy, and a whole realm devoted to another, and so on, to represent the fact that his mind is fragmented and the universe is built from those fragments?

What's to stop them from iterating Neo Seido as including supernatural elements of the One Being or whatever other supernatural aspects you'd like to see though? I know this is Mortal Kombat but approaching the whole Chaos vs Order thing from a very superficial "Saturday morning cartoon" perspective just leaves a shit taste in my mouth. Besides, a true Chaosrealm wouldn't just be a "spooky place where bad things live" it'd break every established rule in science, magic, and the very definition of existence at a sub-atomic molecular level.Chaos is often used in fantasy/fiction to the point where it's implied to be analagous with "Dark, Evil" and that's a gross simplification. EDIT: Also, I looked up the God of Chaos and let's be serious here...this sounds like another "We didn't really think this through" type of continuity moment. Not everything introduced has to be reincorporated into the modern MK story exactly as it was. Kochal sounds more like some sort of demon lord of Netherrealm than an actual God of Chaos (again playing to the trope that Chaos is equivalent to "Dark and Evil"). If anything, the true God of Chaos would be the One Being itself as it's very existence is the fabric of reality across the known realms and it's sole desire is to unmake everything. It doesn't get more chaotic than that.

It already DOES that! Look at the place! Gravity is subjective there and people don't die when the skin on their faces is missing.

I already pointed out that it's not a round planet, it's chunks of rock orbiting a magic tornado where there's somehow breathable air in space.



Kochal is not the God of Chaos. Kochal was a statue in the Netherealm with a portal in it that the demons worshipped as a god because demons are stupid and think inanimate objects that do magical things must be alive. Did you actually play that part of Konquest? I don't know WHO on mkwiki thinks that there's a connection between the "Awaken Kochal" mission and the God of Chaos, but no one ever says anything of the sort in Deception. That's why you can't trust that site, it's full of fan fiction that people just made up off the top of their goddamn heads.
Also, it's too late to retcon Seido and Chaosrealm into being the same place, they were both mentioned in MK9. And I vehemently disagree with the idea that "not everything has to be reintroduced as it was" when MK9's universe is NOT a fresh break from the original canon, it's a version of the Armageddon universe where history has been changed.

I mean fair enough. I know wiki's aren't infallable resources.



Yeah I did...close to a decade ago though probably.



Then where is the God of Chaos mentioned? Is releasing 'The Tempest' even canon?



I mean that's fine, I'm not that attached to the idea of merging Seido/Chaosrealm as it was more a discussion point. However, you might not want MK9 and the subsequent games to be breaks from the original canon but they've already re-written plot points and character arcs. It stands to reason that they'll continue this trend for the looser/weaker aspects of MK lore continuity or to meet whatever overarching story they're trying to tell. And why is that such a bad thing?

I think it would have been safe for you to assume that Kochal is only mentioned in the Netherealm, and the God of Chaos is only talked about in Chaosrealm.

But since I happen to have a word file of all the Konquest dialogue, I'll be nice and copypaste anyway.

Kochal:

"When a sorcerer from another realm has need of a demon or oni, the three-headed god Kochal transports us there."

There's an actual location in the Netherealm where a statue of three heads stands and Kabal, Kobra, and Kira are just standing there as a training challenge. If you fight and beat all three, lava pours out of the mouths of the statue and a portal opens that sends you back to the center of town where a treasure chest sits with a koin reward. This is Kochal, short for "Koin Challenge". The demons THINK it's a god.

In Chaosrealm:

"The Tempest at the center of this realm keeps it from obeying the rules of nature."

"It is said that this realm existed much like any other realm until the god of Chaos unleashed the Tempest!"

Aaand that's pretty much it.



I don't think "Orderrealm and Chaosrealm exist" would be considered to be a looser or weaker aspect of the lore. In fact, it sounds to me a little bit to me like you're suggesting "anything that came after MK3" is looser and weaker, and frankly, that's ridiculous. DA and Deception may have had holes, but they were still the two most detailed and intricately plotted games in the entire series. The new characters are severely underdeveloped due to a lack of dialogue, sure, but MK1 thru 3's characters would be just as terrible if it weren't for the fact that outside media like a movie and a cartoon were made, because that's where Liu, Johnny, Sonya, etc. got their personalities, not from the games. As far as worldbuilding and level of plot detail, the new timeline would be damned lucky to reach the bar set by the Onaga era.



Well for one thing, it makes the timeline not make sense. For another, every time they did it in MK9, like Mileena's origin, it's made the characters involved more shallow and two-dimensional.

No to Darrius, he looks weird.

Why would I be suggesting that anything post-Mk3 is in it's entirety "loose or weak"? Because I mentioned how I'm not a huge fan of those era of games? I readily acknowledge that story mode emphasis and world building didn't really start happening in-game until that era. I like the overall plot to Deception and Dark Alliance as well as multiple characters introduced from those games. MK4 I honestly don't remember well and probably didn't play like I did MK 1 - 3 for a variety of reasons but probably because it felt like a strict departure from the series. I remember it being pretty bad though.

Well there's that.

There's also the fact that you're endorsing willy-nilly retconning of any part of canon that hasn't yet reappeared in the MK9 timeline. And obviously, the only stuff that hasn't happened yet is stuff from post-MK3.

I firmly believe that when they started their reboot with the premise of "this universe is the same as the Armageddon universe, but Raiden is changing history", they locked themselves into HAVING to use every single part of the old canon that Raiden didn't change, and every time they change something and Raiden's visions CAN'T be the reason why, like Kano being the USSF mole instead of Hsu Hao, or the Lin Kuei at the tournament being hired by Shang instead of hired to kill him, or Mileena's new birthday, it makes no god damned sense how that's possible, it's a big fat plothole. There's no explanation given in the actual game for why things are different even before Raiden gets his visions. You can't just start a sequel to a story with "Here's how the last one ended and this one is a continuation of it" and then all of a sudden say "Here's a bunch of stuff that's true now that wasn't true in the last one", how is that possible?
And like I said, every one of these changes they've done so far made the characters involved and overall story worse, so I don't have any faith that future retcons will do good instead of harm either. The only way to handle the timeline they've stuck themselves with that makes any sense is to either A) put an actual explanation, cheap though it may be, into MK10 where they admit something like "Raiden's time message was sent to a parallel universe, not his own past self but a similar version of him from a world where little things are different here and there", or B) avoid making any more dumb retcons, and hopefully find a way to close the plotholes that have already been inflicted...though in most cases, the damage is already done. You unfortunately can't go back and say "Oh yeah, our bad, Kitana actually did grow up together with Mileena and was tricked into thinking she was her sister for a while" once you've shown their first meeting in realtime...unless you do yet another plot about a character magically dicking with history...which I wouldn't be opposed to, personally. I'm totally excited by Jade's arcade ending about the mysterious new chick going "no, this isn't how Kahn's supposed to die, we have to fix it". But I bet a lot of other people would hate to see another story about changing the past and would rather move on with stories about a new future.
That's why every time I suggest a change to a character like Darrius or Dairou's backstory, I ALSO point out how their OLD story is still true in my version, I'm just adding details.

And that's where we fundamentally differ on the direction of future MK games. I'm fine with retcons even if they're outside the realm of "being a direct result of psychic Ray Ray" although I agree that hopefully, the retcons will be used more wisely and to create a stronger narrative.

They're not poorly realized at all, just not very elaborated and poorly received.

The two realms are not budding heads. One realm is trying to "deliver" the other." The Chaosrealm has no quarrel with anyone. The inhabitants are far too busy being free and content to worry about anyone else. The only inhabitant to find business outside of the realm is Havik.

This is what makes the concept unique. The Chaosrealm is full of disorder, and everyone is happy. Seido is full of structure, and everyone is pissed off. And yet, the Seidan government thinks the Chaosrealm is in disarray. This concept forces people to think deeper into what anarchy really means.

Overall, the Seido story arc doesn't even have that much to do with the Chaosrealm, anyway. Most of the issues occur in-house.

Time's up for Darrius, you don't want him to return. Next up for debate is Ermac:

So, the last time we see him in the latest game, he was defeated by Cyborg Sub-Zero in the Belltower, along with Kano who is frozen, and two defeated Shokan... His fate is unknown at this time. Since I highly doubt he was killed in the attack, I could possibly see him return for the next game that is if he's not announced "dead." Could we see him serve the evil side? Could we see him do an alliance change? I'm unsure where I see this character, but I don't think we've seen the last of him. So it's a yes for me.


And here's so far our next Mortal Kombat roster: