I'd like to be able to freeze a person using his blade. Speaking oh which, a little more variance on weapon length would be nice. Kitana's are not as long as Kenshi's looks. It should be smaller, but quicker.

Look at a few of my old posts, you know I'm a huge fan of Scorpion having rope dart with his spear for his weapon.

Im am glad and surprised to see this thread so high on the boards.

I'm am glad too ...

Likewise. On another note, I just rented Dragonball Z: Budokai 3 and it made me think of something. Budokai 3, although a subpar fighting game, is indeed the best Dragonball game ever made. But the reason it's the best isn't exactly because it is far better than the garbage games released by Bandai over the years. It's the best because Dimps doesn't try to make it a legitimate fighting game. Play any of the Dragonball games on the SNES or PSX and you'll see that they're poor excuses for fighters even though they try to be like Capcom games. What Budokai does is carve its own style that less fits the fighting game genre but more aligns with the "feel" of the actual Dragonball universe. When's the last time a fighting game required both players to swirl the control sticks like mad to see who wins out when two attacks collide? Or what fighting game asks the players to blindly guess what button the other player pressed in order to stop a super attack? It's not a game I'd buy but for a weekend of mindless eye candy I'm game. My point is that MK doesn't have a home right now. It's stuck somewhere in between "legitimate fighter" and "different breed". I wouldn't like MK to go the Budokai route but if Boon and Co. doesn't want to conform to the standards of competing games then at least give the series some dignity by making it stand out on it's own like Budokai and Smash Bros. Although odd, the seventh grader who walks to the beat of his own drum is probably a lot better off than the kid who tries to fit in with the trendy group by mimicking them but failing at it.

The whole games trying to be somethin they're not is something that I've always thought about. Both MK and DBZ, two sets of games that are similiar in the fact that they'd never fit in completely with the Legit-Fighting games out there.

It's interesting to see which different paths they've both taken, DBZ: B3 has stayed away from becoming a legit fighting game, while Boon + Co have embraced it.

Despite the quality of both games being similiar, and the fact that MK:Deception will have sold a lot more worldwide than DBZ:B3, I have a feeling there's a lot more pleased DBZ fans than MK fans, or rather a lot more complaints for MK than DBZ.

Maybe its because that DBZ fans dont expect. anything.. while we unfortunately do.

DBZ fans got what they asked for. A game filled with eye candy and DBZ-esque fighting. Remember, making a good DBZ fighting game is harder than it sounds because the source material is so generic. Everyone fights exactly the same. Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Tien, Cell, Frieza, everyone uses the same stock punches and kicks with only slight variation in Ki waves. Mostly those variations are in color alone. It'd be really hard to make a game that is a genuinely good fighting game and honest to the source material at the same time.

With MK it's different. Boon and Co. aren't making a game based on a popular license. They're trying to sell it for what it is. A fighting game. So obviously the people playing MK are going to want to play a good fighting game whereas the people playing Budokai probably won't be expecting so much. I actually had more fun playing Budokai 3 than Deception not because it's necessarily better but because it markets itself to my shallow, wanna see bright lights and things blow up, side. MK tries to market itself to my fighting game fan side but it doesn't hold up.

On a side note, the episode of X-Men that aired tonight on Toon Disney was the one featuring Captain America. Sweet. Cap's coolness is challenged only by Superman and Batman.

I've never seen another thread last this long!


OK so here is some stuff that came to mind just now.

I love auto block attacks like attacks that automatically block a high med or low attack during the start up animation.

I'd love to see more of this done in MK to break combos while blocking and to stop jab traps if they are in the next MK.

The auto block moves could be normal moves like Feng Wei's 1+2 in Tekken 5. or they could work off a 2 part move. Like you tap BLK+f or any direction on the D. pad to do a special block animation. There could even be moves like d, df, f+BLK to do like a crouch dash that automatically blocks mids. Then you can press any attack button to do the second part of the move.


Some fighters could have a shove that works like a parry. You tap f+BLK and if you time it with the opponent's attack, you will block the move and push them back in 1 smooth motion.

That'd be nice to get you out of jab traps. I need something to give me some room.\

If you do the shove block with the opponent's back near the wall, you can get a free wall hit from a wall stun = Frame advantage.

Tapping BLK+b when you block an attack could cancel the normal or long block stun in to a back dash. Some fighters could even go in to a backwards crouch dash like Paul Phoenix d, db, b. BLK+d or BLK+u could cancel the block to a side step. Any of these escape moves could have pre set attack options linked to them. The same as with Tekken Side step attacks and Paul's crouching back dash.

You can see example of this move in the King of fighters games.

Holy crap. I had no clue so much was wrong with the engine. I mean, I knew it was weak compared to other fighters, but geez.

Excellent thread.

I'll still play the game,I'll still love it...but damn....

instead of simple counters (blk + fwrd) and just 3, it should be unlimited...

...and of course done via combo! So if you can insert the right block combo, you'll counter the guy. It should just work by movements though, just to make things interesting. You can truely make use of the vulenerability meter at the top. certain colors would signify certain movements.

Yeah, counters and reversals....... should be unlimited but designed to not be cheap or too over powering which is almost the same thing.

There has to be either really precise timing involved like just frame or have some punishment frames if you miss a reversal or parry.

Like with the punches.......

About juggle breakers.---------------------------------

The juggle escape is a good idea IMO, it just needs to be done MUCH better for it to feel more like a competent design not something slapped together at the last minute.


I could be wrong but about this but by the look and design of the juggle breaker in MKD, it seems like it came about by mistake.

Because they do a standing punch as the counter while being juggled.

I wouldn't be surprised if they designed it to break standing attacks and just by chance they forgot to limit it to standing attacks and it came out that you could break any attack including juggles. They probably thought is was pretty cool and left it in.

I just get that impression because it's so raw in design.

It's a cool idea yeah, but it needs to be designed much better.


Also-------------

I don't really understand what you mean with the counter idea. Could you explain it better with some examples of use in game?

There needs to be some type of air control system in MK, to stop endless juggling....

I feel you on that. What games have juggle systems that you like?

This is something I posted in the Tekkenzaibatsu forums. A thread about impressions of VF4 and T5 likes and dislikes.

I figured it could fit here too.............

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I guess I'll put some personal impressions in here....

My skill level is above average but not master or super technical. I can beat the best players at my arcade usually 2 out of 5 rounds. And I kill pretty much everybody else.

So knowing what kind of player I am, this is what I think about the games.


Things I like better in T5 or VF4E I haven't played VF4FT

Side walk = I liked it better in T5 because of the animation. In VF4 it looks like they are trying to hold a pencil between their cheeks. That always bothered me. All the other animations are cool, but when they walk it's like.

Crouch dash = I like it in both games but I like it in T5 better because it's more of a personal thing that gives the fighter a certain uniqueness and has special moves that link to them. It doesn't feel like such a generic move that's not really good or bad it's just how I look at it.

Wall game = VF4 Because it doesn't feel as overpowering. It's frustrating in T5.
I wish you could do tec. rolls or maybe tec. block against a wall.

Ground game or Okizeme = I like it in Tekken WAAAAAY better. Because I have a lot more options.

Throws = Both are good, I love the long range throw in T5 and I like how you can buffer throws in VF4. I don't like how it's overly hard to escape throws in VF4 though. I like the throw system in Tekken better for that reason.

Reversals = ummmm it's kind of hard to choose. I like how it's easier in Tekken5 but I like how it's a little more complex in VF4. Maybe moves like parries and weak reversals could be like in Tekken5 but More damaging reversals that could possibly go in to chains could be more complex like in VF4.

Character design = It's close but I have to go with Tekken5. I just think they look and fight cooler than the VF characters. Especially now with the dynamic animations they have.

Juggle system = I like it better in T5. I feel like I have more freedom with it. A combination of VF4 and T5 juggle systems could be good I think. Maybe different attacks will cause a Tekken bounce or a VF bounce. It could also work with skimming. I'd like a way to defend when being juggled.
Possible ideas that could be character specific.

Just frame air block that will let you block a juggle and make you land on your feet. = tap f like a parry in Stf3 just before you are hit by a juggle attack.

Extended bounce = makes you bounce further back making part of the opponent's juggle miss. = Tap b when hit with a launcher or juggle attack.

Go limp = Makes you bounce very low like in VF4 = Tap d when hit by a launcher or juggle attack.

Cat landing = Will make you land on your feet after a launcher or juggle hit. Like in SC2 and Street fighter alpla 3. = Tap u when hit by a launcher or juggle attack.

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Stages = Again T5, both games have beautiful stages but I don't like how every stage in VF is a closed in box or a platform. I like the realism of Tekken 5 stages much better. I like the music in T5 better also. It's more like something I could just listen to on it's own without having to play the game.

Just frame moves = I don't play as any fighters in T5 that have or used to have JF moves but I hear that they are easier now, like just special timing, not perfect timing. I like this better because while I could do the just frames in T4, I had a lot of misses on them. I hate to mess up with a just frame when I'm trying to win a match. Just careful timing is what I need, not 1 frame.

Side step = I like it in VF4 much better, it's a lot more useful and reliable. I like it better how you can do different side step attacks in T5 though.

Crush system = I don't understand this well enough to compare it with VF4. From what I understand it just means that some attacks have priority over others and will always beat the other attack. This sounds good to me, more like common sense. I like the idea though.

Blocking = It feels more natural in T5 but the block button adds more options in VF4. It's hard to choose but I'll go with T5 because while the block button can give you more options as far as movement, you are not restricted to blocking while walking away. But then again who says you have to walk, do a back dash and you aren't forced in to a block. Pretty much anything that can be done using a block button can be done with the D. pad. As far as the look goes, I wish they had some style related blocking for different fighting styles instead of the generic boxers block.

Something more like what Feng Wei does in his parry is what I wanna see. Like in a martial arts movie.

when you have your back to the wall then they could do the Boxer's block because there isn't room to do any fancy stuff.

Buffering = It feels a lot better in VF4E.


That's all I can think of for now. I love both games but T5 is more to my liking.

Okay let me explain my version of counters. I tried not to reference a game so it could be unique for MK. I'm trying to meet Boon half way. Give him something unique, but useful.

Counters: Quick
You can enter a quick two or three step button sequence and you will just do the high or low counter. Its good if you can assume the hit.

EX:
LIU KANG
Liu Kang's low foot block: Liu lifts his leg and crushes it downward on the other opponents leg, causing the person to fall to his knees. If Liu misses this, he falls forward for a second. vulnerable. If he does nail it, he does a side kick right after the block.
Liu's power jumping axe: This blocks high attacks, and can block jump attacks if done properly. Liu pulls his leg up and axe kicks downward. Landing the attack in the air, sends the person face down, and stunned on the gound for a bit ready for attack.
Liu's defensive hip toss: Blocks punches. Liu does a grabbing motion. If you time the grab just write, you take the punch with you and toss the person. Miss and your vulnerable as you bring your hand back.

Counters: Slow
The block button is held while an opponent releases a combo, hold and press back persay, and you will enter a defensive mode persay. then by hammering the right sequence of steps on the control pad, depending on the combo, you will eventually stop the opponent's combo with a devastating unreturnable counter move. Usually in defensive mode, you can start bobbing your character and take small sidesteps. Then depending on how long you stay into the sequence of blocking, bobbing, doing mini jumps etc, you can suddenly hit the action button. This would make the game a bit harder as it would require you to know your opponent's moves as well to some extent. To make it easier, the opponent's buttons would appear on screen and you would have to counter it with the proper movement. This basically takes the fight indictors in MKD and makes them usefull.

EX: Combo is sweep, uppercut, haymaker, front kick.
Defense combo is up, left, down, back

up would make you hop, left a slight slide step, down is a duck, back is just a quick hop back and forth.

land that, and your opponent will do some sort of special unique and very damaging counter offensive move.

Throws: Combos
Yes the combo would not be done into throws. You perform a grapple and then hold a button for a quick weak throw, or you can try to do a throw combo for more damaging and fancy mult part throws.

Death Trap Combo defense, escape freeze/dizzy:
About to fall into a trap. An abandoned MKD concept that would be nice. Start to hammer those buttons as fast as you can. If you're about to stumble you can regain your balance. About to fall off, hammer really fast and you may grab the ledge and continue the fight. Of course if you're life is low, it will be near impossible to do this. The same can work if knocked out from hard moves on the gound. Start mashing to wake your person up, as now you can attack people when they're on the ground. Don't want Liu Kang jumping on your back, twisting your spine.

If the fight is really close and its time to finish him, careful, the fighter might beable to come out of dizzyness ala mercy move, but can try to snicker a smallbit of health in one last desperation of a hit. I guess you can them DECEPTIONS.

www.dragon-road.net/vids/b3-combos.zip

Some of the crap in there is amazing.

The reversal / Defense ideas sound pretty cool. I don't think I'd be able to pull them off consistently since the opponent can change up their combo strings.

I'd be pretty hard to parry a string of attacks in a combo.

I'd be like parrying a super move in street fighter 3. The max I can do is like 2-3 parries in a row if I'm lucky.

The pay off would be good though.

I'd probably use the parry technique at the end of a combo or if there is a point that I know I can get away like during a med speed chain.

I might be able to tap Block+up, down, back or forward while blocking a combo to do this....

Blk + forward = does a power block or parry like in SC2 that would stop the opponent's string. If it's a parry, it won't stop the combo, but you can link a pre-set attack to it. Check out the Feng Wei Parry video at the Tekken 5 official site, in the character section.

Maybe, the more attacks you parry in a row increase the amount of damage your counter attack will do. = 5, 10, 15, 20......

Blk+ up or down = side step, you could do some side step attack after that like in Tekken5.

Blk + Back = back dash / hop = you can link some attacks to it like after Paul's back crouch dash.



That Dragon Ball vid is awesome!

Yeah, that is impressive. I didn't know so much could be linked like that.

Well my opinion on Budokai 3 just went up a notch, very nice indeed.

I have an idea on health recovery. Since you can regain some composure in a fight, have it where when you get hit, you loose a chunk of life, but then you that chunk replaced with another red chunk that is slowly moving down while your health slowly tries to catch up. Hitting someone in red would make the hit a tad bit more, and end any chance of recovery. Taunts could be used to speed up the recovery.

Unknown is kind of like that in Tekken Tag.

she automatically regains a bit of life with the red part like you said.

I'd like that, it would make the matches last longer.

I know this has nothing to do with the topic at hand and I appologize for that. The reason I'm posting this here is because I'd like Bleed, with his art talent, to analyze this and make sure it's legit. I don't want to get too excited if it's bogus.

I'm pretty sure it's a fake.

1 = the design is weak.

2 = for KI3 they are using KI 2 character renders.

3 = The font at the top doesn't look professional. It's too hard to read.

The juggling system I like most is the one in Soul Calibur.. Its deadly, but you can escape it if you are skilled enough.....

That stinks. A new KI would be nice. Too bad Rare doesn't seem interested. I could imagine the best route would be make a KI collection with the arcade perfect KI1 and KI2 since they've only reached consoles butchered and then release a third game. Hopefully they ditch the dial-a-combo system though.