As much as we want, MK will probably not change, as Colguile stated.

Like him, I'm splitting for good.

Your ideas are invane because Boon won't do a shit what you guys are saying.

mkda??: Hell yeah man, MK was pretty good, at least decent, back in the oldschool days.

starwinderbeta: damn dude, you'll be back when we tear apart the game on release though right? If the game doesn't change, it'll take us like a week to do every character, lol.

Siduu: Maybe, maybe not. Everyone complained about lack of fatalities, stage fatalities, movement, the cast of characters, etc. and now we have MKD addressing all of that. If everyone jumps onto this thread and just supports it or say yeah the system needs addressing, we'll see what happens. So maybe they will, maybe they won't. But it's better to try and see what the MK team will do in MK6 and MK7 than not try at all, right?

What's so amazing is that even the "mechanics" that were in DA, didn't even "work" correctly, lol. A lot of things would have changed had UT not been in there. I've often wondered if that was a feature meant to be in. Holy shit, UT, the final secret!!

Had UT not been in, SSc would actually be usefull. Auto SS does suck ass, but almost all 3d fighters utilize some sort of an auto SS. VF, especialy. MK's was just raped and in-efficient. Auto SS keeps peeps from whoring over prioritized movement. Which helps ballance; something MK has always had a problem with. I don't know if ballance was the idea behind auto SS being implemented in MK...or if it was just a half ass effort at making something "simple."

I personally don't have a problem with BDc, too. If a dash was implemented a lot of BDc whoring would be nurfed, anyways. A relatively loose dash and SSc could create great movement options, as well.

Give a dash or advancing movement of some sort, kill UT, get some properties in there and you could have a decent, at least appliable, game. It's not that difficult, lol. Then agian, there was a problem getting DA's limited mechanics to work in the first place. So maybe there are some issues that go beyond our comprehension.

Either way, it's tough dealing with this issue of gameplay. Being someone who's standard is VF, lol. Ray told me straight up that there realy isn't any intention to develop "deep" gameplay. You know, though, the dev team could at least get what is implemented, to work correctly. That really isn't to much to ask. It's their job, isn't it? To actualy DESIGN a game. To make it functional, yes? Bleh.

Well guys, it seems at the moment that our requests for a more intuitive gameplay system have fallen upon deaf ears. I'm by no means a religious man but I will begin to pray for the souls of the ones who will never truly know what it means to apply true skill and break your opponent down with a "rush-down" and mind games by using the knowledge of frames, properties ect.

(Forgive them game lord, for they know not what they play)...The previous statement about the lord was just a joke now, I'm not trying to offend anyone I'm just poking a little fun in this time of dispare to lighten the mood. The funny thing is that I know some of you including myself have a small ray of hope that MKD will have some of the important play mechanics to at least elevate it into "decent fighter" status. HDtran, FLSTYLE, Colgule, Saty, and the rest of the gameplay buffs, I applaud you and request that you all absorb this moment to take a bow, and congratulate yourselves.

Not only for bringing so many of the nay-sayers to the light of what a fighter truly should be, but by systematicaly breaking down the frames,and properties of each potential moveset. But also for remaining so mature and level headed while being attacked by some ruthless flames. At this point until further news is broken I will accept MKD for what it will be and I will continue to enjoy Cvs2, SF3: 3rd Strike, Tekken Tag, and VF Evo. I love MK's univers and stories but I want my gameplay too.

If I want a good story I can simply pick up a book, watch a movie or play a nice RPG. But when you think about a good story its just that, a story and once you've read it or seen the movie there's no real reason to read or watch the same book or movie continuosly. The story will not change. That is the way I feel about the way MKDA played. It has a nice story, but the real kicker is that MKDA's gameplay is just like a story, once you've done it you know what the outcome will be everytime, no change what-so-ever.

There was no reason for me to continue, enough said. Good night to all, and take care.

I hate to ruin the mood by saying something. That last post, mastermalone, made it sound like the curtain should come down and the end credits should role.

But, yeah, it's funny. I wonder how dedicated the designers would be if the majority did want deeper gameplay. It's easy to read that there weren't enough fatalities because that's easy to fix. But if the majority wanted a competent properties system would the team take it to heart? Basically, do they listen to things only when it's convienient to do so? I hate to have to lower my expectations for the series as a whole but I guess I need to accept that MK will always be in the back of the line when it comes to depth. I guess that's ok though. What's not ok, like Saty said, is when what they actually do implement works like crap anyway. If you're going to make something basic then at least make those basics work right. If I'm going to build a treehouse it's ok if I don't want to decorate it with a coffee table and curtains but the least I can do is make sure the damn thing doesn't fall.

Satyagraha Wrote: What's so amazing is that even the "mechanics" that were in DA, didn't even "work" correctly, lol. A lot of things would have changed had UT not been in there. I've often wondered if that was a feature meant to be in. Holy shit, UT, the final secret!!

Yes, I'm completely convinced that some things in the game were unintentional or results of sloppy work (eg. the hypertaunt, the infinites...).

But I think that MKD is going online, may yet salvage the series. They can't remain blind forever and see that everyone will be playing the same characters/styles over and over (which I hope will not be true). And like someone else noted, this time around the lame gamers will be complaining hardest. MK7 will be a decent game, or it will not be at all.

On a lighter note, although most of the criticism on MKDA (and possibly MKD) is very much justified, no gaming series is flawless. I remember the days of Tekken 2 & 3, or Soul Calibur, and I was pretty dismayed by the fact that many characters were reducable to a 'root character' to which they owed 70-100% of their moves. Also, VF is lost on most regular gamers.

Cheers,
VQ

T3 was pretty good, there were a lot of tools to use as well as the character balance being on the spot. I remember playing Jin, the least diverse of the T3 cast, and still using around 10 different things in a round.

T2 was just whorish, balance was so horrible due to EWGF. Everyone just kept playing Kazuya and EWGFing everything.

Soul Calibur 1 is interesting, it's weird because a lot of the great players at Soul Calibur 2 always say that 1 gave more freedom. The likes of Maxi, etc. are a lot less linear/restricted than they are in their Soul Calibur 2 counterparts. Soul Calibur is just a great game though, a lot of subtle fixes on the system as well as stages with walls and all created a great sequel.

I think all the underlying stuff once you remove the flaws of MKDA, there isn't anything left. The flaws of other games like T2, T3 and Soul Cal 1, once you remove some of the flaws and abusable things, there is still a great playable game left. Hard to really be objective about it.

Thanks for the support guys, I don't know about anyone else on this board and I don't know if we'll ever change anything, but it's been cool meeting you guys and seeing other people that care about MK enough to try to show people what's wrong instead of just calling it trash. (Although a lot of us are doing both already =))

Wow that's pretty fucking terrible Ray got kicked out for bringing the truth to them. Which basically answers Tony's and my question. Even if everyone screamed for better gameplay, would they really bother? Apparently not. They just listen to the fluff that people want added, add it, and say "ta da! we listen to fans! see!" while everyone applauds. Not by cheers. But by the slurping sounds of people bathing their tongues on the MK team's balls. It's fuckin' sickening.

Great thread, BTW.

MENTHOL Wrote: Wow that's pretty fucking terrible Ray got kicked out for bringing the truth to them. Which basically answers Tony's and my question. Even if everyone screamed for better gameplay, would they really bother? Apparently not. They just listen to the fluff that people want added, add it, and say "ta da! we listen to fans! see!" while everyone applauds. Not by cheers. But by the slurping sounds of people bathing their tongues on the MK team's balls. It's fuckin' sickening. Great thread, BTW.

LOL! LOL! LOL! LOL!, Now thats funny!

I've got kind of a weird question, so please bear with me, but what developer would you guys like to see take over MK? Midway/Boon will never(perhaps can't) improve gameplay, so who would be best fit for the job? I'd say Sega, on the basis that I'd love to see the MK style infused with VF-like play.

Your thoughts?

Sega or Konami as a developer. Sega, not only with their experience creating functional gameplay, but they also have a nice nest of artists; a good creativity pool. Eveything they do is clean, too. Like, many of their products are polished and well presented. Konami just has great resources.

Square also did a great job with the tobal series. They have excellent production values, as well.

hehe, Midway would never give up the game that saved them from going under so many times to count. If I had to pick a developer though, Satya is on the spot, Sega AM-2 is the most high quality team I've ever seen. Anything has been pushed out by them in the past is nothing short of flawless, as well as Sega overall always being innovative with gameplay at it's head at all times.

Anyways, has anyone seen footage of the supposedly touched up animation? Because those three profiles that were released a week ago still showed the same fighting engine to me.

There's only a few things so far that they changed that have been in the videos in terms of fighting engine.

- Dashing
- Universal Uppercut

I wanted to view the Raiden fighting movies again
because I thought I might have missed something. There was this one overhead punch from Raiden in Nan Chuan, b+2 if I recall right, that bounces the opponent off the ground. I think in the movie it pushed them far away though, bounces or pushes away only on counterhit maybe? Not sure, need to see that particular movie again.

Anything else I missed? Oh yeah, anyone have a clue as to what the colors of the state indicators mean?

Menthol: Yeah that was horrible, I REALLY do wonder what they would do if the masses asked for better gameplay.
Satya: VF4 being the standard for 3d fighters is crazy. =P

HDTran Wrote: Satya: VF4 being the standard for 3d fighters is crazy. =P

lol, yah, I know.

What vid was the dash in? I haven't seen it, I don't think. Was it Shinjuku who was dashing? I thought I saw a vid of him doing a dash, but it looked more like a quick first step as you'd do in DA. Meh.

I think it was in the video with Sub-Zero vs. Nightwolf. Yeah, it looks like the character takes a huge stride more than a real dash or run or anything.

Fight State Indicators:
The Red indicator is for attacking I'm pretty sure, or is it delay after an attack? I have no idea what the yellow one is for, the blue one seems to shine at random times too, but it always shine when someone jumps.

I have to say BRAVO to the thread creator...

Hopefully, if we keep throwing this in Midway's face, they will do all of this for Mortal Kombat 7.

But, I have an additional issue with MKDA/D.

I believe that there are also TOO many buttons...

As for another developer that could do MK? It may sound odd but I think Naughty Dog could do a fantastic job despite them not having any fighting game experience. They seem to know everything when it comes to function and presentation. And I have to disagree about Tobal, Saty. Though the grapple system is damn cool, I feel the overall game was pretty average to above average. And the quest modes in both games, mostly Tobal 2, were painful to play though. I think although Tobal 2 was Dream Factory's best work, they really don't do much beyond that.

If I had to choose a developer I would go old-school with Akklaim... are they even still in the maket?

ImmortalKombatant Wrote: I have to say BRAVO to the thread creator... Hopefully, if we keep throwing this in Midway's face, they will do all of this for Mortal Kombat 7. But, I have an additional issue with MKDA/D. I believe that there are also TOO many buttons...

I agree with that, must we have to use a whole shoulder button just to block, just press back instead, it's easier and requires less of your reaction time to get your finger to that button, so you have more time trying to find out what combos the dial-a-combo system will allow you to do.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: As for another developer that could do MK? It may sound odd but I think Naughty Dog could do a fantastic job despite them not having any fighting game experience. They seem to know everything when it comes to function and presentation. And I have to disagree about Tobal, Saty. Though the grapple system is damn cool, I feel the overall game was pretty average to above average. And the quest modes in both games, mostly Tobal 2, were painful to play though. I think although Tobal 2 was Dream Factory's best work, they really don't do much beyond that.

Hmm.I think if naughty dog would have worked on more fighters after 3do's way of the warrior....who knows.I don't post often,but when a good thread like this is made,I must post.Brilliant thread and I hope this wakes alot of people up.IMO when i go back to playing tekken tag or better yet MK2 after i've unlocked everything in MK:DA then yeah i would think there was a problem.When I read your points and facts on the reversal/counter/ground game intake.I was like this guy really nailed it down,because in all honesty,when you unlock the characters/levels/etc etc.What else is there after that?I know MK isn't like the rest of the fighters out there,but let's be realistic.Without a solid gameplay engine and so many other fighters out there competing...your 5 month old MK:D dvd is just gonna be used to show people fatalities that havent seen em before.Don't flame me for that.I just call it like i see it,nothing more.Truthfully,the majority of the public saw MK:D was coming out and decided to play MK:DA again.I tried that also.I started playing MK 2
instead after 2 days of playing MK:DA.I am looking forward to the release of MK:D,but i'm am very sceptical of it at the same time.I just don't want to get my hopes up again for a car that looks good on the outside,but under the hood you need a new engine.

I'm not a person to reply to negative posts as I'm a very optomisitc person but I do stress on occasions eg my Nightwolf thread a week ago. But what you've done is great. You've pointed out the negatives and tryed to give good reasons and ways and whys to fix them. This is a good thread.

*walks in after a brief disappearance*

My my. Outstanding. I only had time to read the topic post, and it was great. I'll breeze through the rest of it later.

ImmortalKombatant Wrote: I have to say BRAVO to the thread creator... Hopefully, if we keep throwing this in Midway's face, they will do all of this for Mortal Kombat 7. But, I have an additional issue with MKDA/D. I believe that there are also TOO many buttons...

On the buttons thing, this is how I think of it. This is the list of moves and how buttons are mapped with regard to stances.

Dead or Alive 3 - 60-90 moves at any single time per character with 3 buttons. Block, Punch, Kick, all mapped intuitively.

Soul Calibur 2 - 50-100 moves at any single time per character mapped on 4 buttons. Block, vertical, horizontal, kick; very intuitively designed.

Tekken 4 - 60-90 moves at any single time per character mapped with 4 buttons. Each signifying a different lim with accompanying motions that are mapped intuitively.

Virtua Fighter 4: Evolution - Again, 60-90 moves mapped at any single time per character with 3 buttons. Block, Punch, Kick. Very intuitive and direction motion intensive.

Mortal Kombat Deadly Alliance - At any time, in any stance, you have 20-30 moves at any given time. They need 7 buttons to map all of this. Block, Special Move, Attack 1, Attack 2, Attack 3, Attack 4, Change Stance. What's worse is that these buttons are designed with almost random selection of buttons and directions.

Honestly, I can go through every character's movelist in MK and design a control scheme with only Block, Punch, Kick that when players see something executed, they could guess close if not spot on, how to do the motion. I suppose the MK team has always been demeaning players in that respect, giving us less credit than we deserve when it comes to playing fighting games. They think we have problems hitting two buttons at the same time, thus no two buton combinations. They think we have problems doing half-circles and quarter circles, thus no motions for such and lastly, they assume that people that use chains are generally only smart enough if they're only worrying about button presses, but cannot worry about directions at the same time. Also have you noticed how there are NO diagonals?

But I think it's kinda obvious since the old MK days. I mean I remember looking at Sub-Zero's moves back in MK1 and instead of quartercircle forward for a freeze, it was down, forward so you could never miss it. The exection isn't any different, it's just more lenient and kinda a slap in the face to players saying that they need to dummy it down.

kamionero Wrote: If I had to choose a developer I would go old-school with Akklaim... are they even still in the maket?

Acclaim has always been just a publisher for the console versions back in the day, they don't really develop anything, hehe. But I wouldn't be surprised if Acclaim guys could do a better job. =P
Just wanted to say hi to everyone =P Anyways, I think I'm slowly cracking down what blue and yellow state indicators are.

hehehe.... no, but seriously, great stuff guys!

I think thats a little too much support for the thread, lol.