What ?? you're saying that you're a member of the Ed Boon's team ?? you're saying that you work for Midway in the production of the next MK game?? To me it seems like bullshit !! We want proof!

Heres just a few things wrong with MKDA;

Game was a little bit slow. I would like faster overall game play. Needs a dash run.

Throwing system needs to be reworked. I would like to see a different throw depending on the angle of your attack. Something like vf, tekken, sc. When you do a throw from behind it would do something different then when you do a throw facing them.

A wake up game IMO MKDA didn’t have one. I’ll probably get flamed for this but come on it was crap compared to other fighters.

The entire juggle system needs to be reworked.

Special moves there needs to be more. Bring back some classic ones like Cyrax’s net. I mean common Cyrax was a joke. Maybe if he had his net he might have been somewhat challenging to fight against. Kitana, Mavado, etc had jokes for special moves as well.

More in-depth moves for the weapon stance; each character had what, 5 moves and a few combos if that. Rework that maybe make some special moves that you can only do in weapon stance so that there is more reason to switch to the weapon stance.

Reversals; the entire thing needs to be revamped. Not sure how to fix it but it wasn’t very good in MKDA. Do something with it so that it’s not retarded like it is currently. The idea is good it just needs work.

The barriers were dumb and made no sense. Do something else for the edge of the stage, ring out, a wall, whatever I just don’t wanna be bouncing off force fields. I mean what was the explanation for those things anyway. Shang Tsung or Quan Chi curse all the stages so that when you start fighting with someone you’re trapped in that area until the fights over?

A better Konquest mode something like VF4’s quest mode, or SC2’s weapon master mode.

Thers the few things I can think of at the moment.

Nikodemus Wrote: Heres just a few things wrong with MKDA; Game was a little bit slow. I would like faster overall game play. Needs a dash run. Throwing system needs to be reworked. I would like to see a different throw depending on the angle of your attack. Something like vf, tekken, sc. When you do a throw from behind it would do something different then when you do a throw facing them. A wake up game IMO MKDA didn’t have one. I’ll probably get flamed for this but come on it was crap compared to other fighters. The entire juggle system needs to be reworked. Special moves there needs to be more. Bring back some classic ones like Cyrax’s net. I mean common Cyrax was a joke. Maybe if he had his net he might have been somewhat challenging to fight against. Kitana, Mavado, etc had jokes for special moves as well. More in-depth moves for the weapon stance; each character had what, 5 moves and a few combos if that. Rework that maybe make some special moves that you can only do in weapon stance so that there is more reason to switch to the weapon stance. Reversals; the entire thing needs to be revamped. Not sure how to fix it but it wasn’t very good in MKDA. Do something with it so that it’s not retarded like it is currently. The idea is good it just needs work. The barriers were dumb and made no sense. Do something else for the edge of the stage, ring out, a wall, whatever I just don’t wanna be bouncing off force fields. I mean what was the explanation for those things anyway. Shang Tsung or Quan Chi curse all the stages so that when you start fighting with someone you’re trapped in that area until the fights over? A better Konquest mode something like VF4’s quest mode, or SC2’s weapon master mode. Thers the few things I can think of at the moment.

very good...I concur

Thanks!

everyone knows Ray works for MIDWAY, i guess ur just slow on the uptake.

anyway.

the reversal system really pissed me off. they were too slow.

find some way to make it flow with the fight instead of a long pause once u do it.

the fighting styles need some work too. i hear that many of them weren't correct.

i cant think of anything else at the moment. if i do, u'll post it

keep up the good work Ray
i agree with the konquest mode comment. Nice to have a story mode, but make it more of a story mode and less of an actual training session. more like a mini-game of what the character does during his storyline and during that toss in the training

The-Mortal-God Wrote: What ?? you're saying that you're a member of the Ed Boon's team ?? you're saying that you work for Midway in the production of the next MK game?? To me it seems like bullshit !! We want proof!

No I'm not part of the MK team...I'm going to go pitch myself.

I was a balance tester for deadly alliance...because of my work ethic and performance on DA. The opportunity to work on Psi Ops came. I am a Level and Game Play Designer for Psi Ops.

Psi Ops will be done very soon and I am going to offer my services as a designer to ED.

By the way folks we are currently wrapping up the Psi Ops PS2 demo and the XBOx version will be submitted next month. Keep your eyes peeled and let me know what you think.

There are screen shots and Game Play videos on Game Spot so check it out and let me know.

Thanks again

oooh, maybe u can see if they can toss in some cool camera angles, not so much to confuse u and make u lose ur place, but enough to should the fight at more angles, kinda like a matrix fight without all the lame bullet time.

cause when i play MKDA it seems sorta dull having the camera at the same place. remeber that cool video of scorpion fighting quan chi? i know the games graphics cant be that good, but i'd like angles like that

mister_satan666 Wrote: everyone knows Ray works for MIDWAY, i guess ur just slow on the uptake. anyway. the reversal system really pissed me off. they were too slow. find some way to make it flow with the fight instead of a long pause once u do it. the fighting styles need some work too. i hear that many of them weren't correct. i cant think of anything else at the moment. if i do, u'll post it keep up the good work Ray i agree with the konquest mode comment. Nice to have a story mode, but make it more of a story mode and less of an actual training session. more like a mini-game of what the character does during his storyline and during that toss in the training

yeah I know what you mean...if I have any say about things...I will guarantee that the next MK will be the best fighter of all time.

Thats what I want to do...create nothing but AAA titles. Make good games...for you guys!

It wasn't that long ago that I was one of you. While the memory of being a fan from the outside is still with me...I think that I can do things to revolutionize whatever genre of game that I work on.

Psi Ops and certain aspects of DA are prime examples of my work.

My goal is to change the face of MK for the better and return MK to it's status of...

Greatest Fighter of All Time.

One thing really needs to be added once again my good friend Ray : the RUN BUTTON. For me, a big part of the fun in MK was to run at the enemy and unleash a good bunch of punches and kicks. Make the runner scream a violent roar like he's going to war and you have a good aggressive feeling that is so typical to MK. The run button is a must !!!!

ok, i got more.

the weapon mechanics. while it was a big improvement from mk4's weapons, it still felt like an extension of the hand.

toss in some sword fighting mechanics, u know the whole cling clang ninja kung fu movie shit.

and add some realism, like if someone is fighting axe vs sword, make it play like that rather than blade vs blade

What I like about MK is that the fighting is a lot more aggressive than all other fighters. We still want a lot of blood that stay on the ground. Make special moves that are a lot aggressive. For the weapons, one fighter could have a CHAINSAW !! With the loud roar of that chainsaw that would be aggressive. Some hard hitting moves and exciting techno music with the MK feel in it. Continue to further the difference between characters while all making them as balanced as possible to avoid getting a super character that would be stronger than all the others.

listen to me, heres what you really need

-1) enough coffins to keep fans busy for a year, ala at least 1500 coffins

-2) Dont skip the teleportations this time.

-3) Dont be shy on characters, bring more than mkda ever did.

-4) Send ed boon my regards, Im his biggest mk fan and it seems like I liked mkda more than any other game in histroy, and more than most people here. my name is outworld222

-5) Dont release any info no matter what, and ask him if you get kool stuff like keychains and stuff if you preorder.

-6) Find out if graphics will look like mkda. and player movements, or will the graphics be liek way different from mk4 to mk5

Thanks thats about it, but the most important thing is the coffins dude, if you had 3000 good coffins we cant get bored, because if they're good, than no body will have a problem. Hope you get this, this is Friday night, and update us on what happens.

hey rayrokka, youre the only one that gives a damn about us, and if you want mk to succeedd, please please take my advice,

and triple the amount of coffins( dont be shy on coffins)

(dont be shy about characters the more the marrier) Kinda like mk2

and dont be shy about making teleportations a more important part of the game. In the classic games, many had teleportations, I dont know what happened in mk5, I guess they were left out.

If this happens, I know mk6 will be a big success, but Im sure ed boon has ideas weve never heard of or thought of before, so we shall see and find out.

outworld222 Wrote: listen to me, heres what you really need -1) enough coffins to keep fans busy for a year, ala at least 1500 coffins -2) Dont skip the teleportations this time. -3) Dont be shy on characters, bring more than mkda ever did. -4) Send ed boon my regards, Im his biggest mk fan and it seems like I liked mkda more than any other game in histroy, and more than most people here. my name is outworld222 -5) Dont release any info no matter what, and ask him if you get kool stuff like keychains and stuff if you preorder. -6) Find out if graphics will look like mkda. and player movements, or will the graphics be liek way different from mk4 to mk5 Thanks thats about it, but the most important thing is the coffins dude, if you had 3000 good coffins we cant get bored, because if they're good, than no body will have a problem. Hope you get this, this is Friday night, and update us on what happens.

DOn't think in terms of MKDA...I would want MK X to be completely different if possible.

Also the question is....what is bad about MKDA.

this is not about MK X

there were obvious flaws in the game play of DA
I have heard comments like "Kids Stuff" and "Childish"

Like the power ups pissed people off, the reversals, Quan Chi's fatality, etc.

Hsu Hao's default costume (I like his alternate alot actually)

This is getting away from game play flaws.

So yeah try to keep the focus on game play flaws in DA

thanks.

wow there were hardly any gameflaws in mkda, the engine is very good. Sorry for getting off topic about coffins, but thats not gameplay. Im a little confused about what you mean about mkx I think I get it, from a tecqniqual standpoint, what is wrong with mkda is no teleportations, lack of them, it missing. Besides that its the next best thing to sliced bread and goldeneye.

1)Definately work on the throw system, I could picture MK having badass throws.

2)Fix the air moves, IMO they were horrible in MKDA, the jumpkicks suck.

3)I know you guys wont bring the old-school system back, but you should at least bring back uppercuts. roudhouses, sweeps, etc.

That's all I can think of right now...

1. THe game wasn't fast enough. The pace was good, but the characters could move a bit faster to make it more exciting. A dash button would be helpful.

2. Balance obviously was an issue. I think there should be something implimented into MK6 that every character has that balances the gameplay. in Street Fighter 3 3rd Strike it's the parry, and in Soul Calibur 2 it's the guard impact.

3. The characters weren't diverse enough. Everyone should play differently. Some chars should be all around balanced while some have EXCELLENT offense but no real defensive tools. While some chars could have the best defensive stuff but would be fairly weak on the defensive side. Some chars might depend on throws or some might depend on counter hitting,etc.

4. Not enough specials. Each char should have a big set of specials. Some defensive and some offensive.

thats it for now. im so tired im tearing up. later

Defenetly more special moves and a better 'story' mode. Story's always been the one thing about MK that I've always loved.

Also, I know we're talking gameplay here, but I really can't stress this enough- change the lighting around, fire the designers... just don't make the game so god damn cartoony. MKDA looked like a comedy game at times.

.........FMV endings.


(story mode cutscenes would be nice too)

WTF!!! That's all verse had to say?! I thought he'd been all over this like bukkake on an asian girl . j/k

Core gameplay, eh? Hmm, well, when peeps speak of "core" it can usually be broken down into "fundamental" gameplay. Now, fundamentals are not inherently simplistic. They are simply the foundation with which all other techniques are built from - duh. With that, lets analyze the fundamentals of DA and find out what exactly the foundation is.

I look at DA and not who, but what do I see dominating? Pokers, BDc, and genericly safe moves; with quick mix up opportunities off of pokes and while coming out of BDc. So, fundementally DA is about applying preasure with pokes and utilizing safe mix-ups.

Uh, okey, I've just described about 50% if the core gameplay of almost all fighters in history. Weather we know it or not, weather we are a scrub or a hardcore, that is the way we play, fundamentally. That is the foundation of most fighters, and all fighters that are worth a damn.

So, the question is, how did DA fail in expressing itself, fundamentally? It failed in implementing two concepts: proper movement and some, any, recognition towards move properties and their respective frame data.

Regarding linear movement, DA lacked about 1/2 of it. One can BD or BDc, but the other cannot dash or advance in a quickly and timely manner? One cannot give chase? Interesting how such a fundamental feature was left out, while its concept and implementation is "core" to almost all other fighters. Not only did this simply slow down the game, but it created a sense of one-dimensionality along an already linear plain that the player is playing on. Such can be very frustrating for certain players - myself included.

I really do find this apparent lack of a dash mind blowing. Dashing would not only allow a player to create/close space - esentially a basic zoning technique - but bring forth psycholgical aspects onto the playing field.

Yes, high/low move mix-ups may be important; but is not the controling of space in which to do that move just as important, if not more? DA simply did not allow for this kind of control and psychological battle between the players. At least not the way it should have.

Beyond linearity you have non-linearity, or more commonly refered to as, the sidestep. Theoretically, a sidestep is still linear, just on another axis. So what is it that, basically, tricks the player into thinking he/she is on a non-linear plane? Simply the "transition" from one linear axis, to another linear axis.

Yet another element which DA could have used work on. Again, funny enough, a simple, properly developed dash would have been very benificial to this transition. As most ssing in DA comes from a, seamingly, stand still. There isnt' any sense of transition to begin with,

Ok, so now we can move. We can rush-down that son of a bitch, we can run away from that son of a bitch. We can control his every action, his "gameplan" if you will, with our movement. He's guesing what we're going to do, we're guessing what he thinks we're going to do. We've earned that space. So, now we need the tools in order to lock this shit down and go for the W. Or, they've done the deeds and we're up crap creek, so we need a way to break through his shit in order to keep our win streak going.

Here in lies another DA failure; actual move properties. I wont even touch on frame data, as that is technical, requiring mass testing, and I'm afraid of numbers. The theory is adjustable either way and true to form, as the theory represents perfect frame data anyway. So we don't have to worry about it. That is, the subsequent frame data that would ensue in actual practice.

Move properties come in many forms. Let it be an other-wise non launching move that launches on counter hit. Or, a hit which will react differently depending on the angle in which you initiate contact. Even when the move doesn't connect, say an opponent blocks your move, something should happen, such as a guard stun. There should always be...a "be", for a move. There should be a uniqueness, an existance for that move. If not in a visual sense, but in a utilitarian sense, better if both.

Persoanlly, I think the lack of a true guard stun nurfed the game quite a bit, as did a piss "stun system" and the lack of axis dependent hits. In the end, it is these unique move properties which define the very nature of a character in game. It is these expansive traits which promote creativity with in the players playing style. Frame data simply balances the game, giving a mathmatical, scientific, and concrete analysis of the move and how it compares to other moves. DA, does not have this. It seams, anyways.

In the end, a fighting game comes down to playability. Within that realm, movement takes a large stance, and out of that stance we, the player, need tools to work with. These tools need to be diversified amongst the characters, they need to define the characters, and they need to be worth a damn. Even if the move is just situationally usefull. To get into that situation, though, you need to be able to, gasp, move into it. It's full circle. DA simply did not complete that circle.

Well, there's my essay. If you read it, thank you. I hope it enlightened someone, anyone. At the least I hope it was entertaining. I'd like to point out this is my view on what I thought DA was missing, and theory as to why DA was not a good, hardcore, fighter. Many more topics could be covered, which are just as relevent. Such as more advanced zoning, or more technicalities, but thus is not my place. Oh, and excuse my grammar, it always sucked. Especially on the fly.

Peace and love ya'll.

Air moves. Give Jax back his 'back-breaker' an Scorpion's 'air-toss'. Things like that. Also, like Mr. Satan said, when fighting with two different weapons, it shouldn't seem like you are both using the same thing. Detailed blocks would be nice.

rayrokka Wrote: OK guys it's time... I'm building my case for MK 6 and one of the topics I would like to point out to Ed is.... what was BAD about DA I'm not talking about fatalities or cosmetics. I'm talking about CORE game play. I have a meeting on Monday with Ed and I'm going to be working on this all weekend. Thanks.... Ray

Gameplay wise there is nothing wrong with MK: DA to me. I would like to have the run button back though to make the kombat faster and more hardcore :D.
PS I cant wait to see what you guys at Midway have done with the 50% new MK: DA engine :D

I would like to see the characters have a variety of the jump kicks. Instead of most of them jumping and kicking with both legs like in DA, each character should have their own way they prefer to do the jump kicks.

yea, i agree with the jump kick comment too.

also take into consideration a character's height and weight for their jump kicks, also i doubt all fighting stanced have the same jump kicks

Damn, Satygraph is 100% right man. Everything he said I agree full heartedly with. Couple more things.

1. I believe weapon combat should have had a different feel from the characters' other stances. Weapons should have certain advantages and just as much disadvantages in gameplay. It shouldn't just be a cooler looking third stance like it was in DA. Like firstly weapon throws should do more damage than regular throws. They should also be able to be dropped and picked up by your opponent, but with side effects. Some of these side effects could be bad and good. Like for example if Li Mei picked up a massive weapon like a Giant Axe, she would be slowed down dramatically, but obviously she'd do more damage with it then she would with her small Sais. Obviously juggle possibilities would be endless since weapons would alter what your character can do offensively, and possibly defensively iwf you guys decide to give weapons unique defensive features.

2. The arenas were cool looking, but they had no depth. The Arena should determine partly how you play your char. Take Sub-Zero example.Suppose Shotokan in MK6 was more powerful than Dragon and has more techniques that gets opponent near walls. You may use that more in SMALL arenas since it's congested and your opponent has very little room to get away. Then perhaps a HUGE arena like The Warzone(yes i made this up) would cater more to weapon styles since you can defend with backdashing in parrying techinque and still get damage in with your weapon because of it's massive range. Interactivity should also be at it's higest. Even better than DOA3.

3. Focus was lacking with the characters. I believe for each character you should look at EACH of their stances closely and ask yourself some very important questions.

Should this stance be offense oriented? If so, what tools and moves and unique movements would help this stance be as offensively great as possible?

Should this stance be defense oriented? If so, what type of tools and moves and unique movements would help this stance be as defensively sound as can be?

Will this stance be weak against certain things like pokes, throws or defensive/offensive stances? If so, how can I make sure the character's other stances help counter the weakness of this particular stance?

Is this stance too good or too mediocre? Are there a balance of safe moves and risk moves? Is this stance FUN to use? Will this stance help me win? What would be the point to using this stance? What advantages does this stance have other my two other stances or the other stances in the game period that would make me want to use it?

I feel this would help anyone out if they are developing a fighting game. Focus is key this time around.

4. Like Satygraph said earlier, EVERY move should have a use...period. Whether it's extremely situational or is a all around good move is up to you guys of course, but EVERY move should be useful and not just cool looking. Freeze? Useless. Spear? Basically useless as well? Other moves like the belly flop, flying kick with sonya, acid spit with Reptile are all useless. Characters have way too many low attacks that do less than 3% damage and are slow to top it off. Limit these moves. How about moves that scoop under high attacks? What about offensive moves that have built in side steps are other defensive abilities? What about moves that cause guard stun? Even moves that does damage to you in sacrifice to do more damage to your opponent!