illu§ion Wrote: rayrokka Wrote: I dont agree with that at all...Moloch is a Boss...Bosses are strong. yea but you should at least make it more detailed on the moves, other than some cheap shots. =/. Sorry to make you mad.

I'm not mad...Moloch only has four moves...they needed to be good.

Heh, Ray, that problem with the movement you say you have is quite the dilemma. I can't see how to fix that without losing the jump game. It may require a change with the jump controls. Perhaps holding the block button in order to jump and duck like it is in Soul Calibur. But the jump game in Soul Calibur is very different and far less exaggerated as it is in MK it's not so easy to visualize. If the block button is released during the jump animation then an attack button could be pressed to do an air attack. It may also address the issue of not being able to jump straight up. Whatever is done with that though, make sure the jump game is looked into.
I'm not entirely sure about the universal tracking deal, since it wasn't too long ago that Versatile introduced me to it but from what I gather, if everything goes smoothly with that list you printed and all those basic gameplay mechanics will indeed be worked into the next game, then the universal tracking may not be needed. DA was way too linear in move design which without universal tracking would have made it sidestep, punish, sidestep, punish. If the movement and move properties are improved and otherwise dealt with accordingly then universal tracking probably will not be needed. It may even break the game.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: Heh, Ray, that problem with the movement you say you have is quite the dilemma. I can't see how to fix that without losing the jump game. It may require a change with the jump controls. Perhaps holding the block button in order to jump and duck like it is in Soul Calibur. But the jump game in Soul Calibur is very different and far less exaggerated as it is in MK it's not so easy to visualize. If the block button is released during the jump animation then an attack button could be pressed to do an air attack. It may also address the issue of not being able to jump straight up. Whatever is done with that though, make sure the jump game is looked into. I'm not entirely sure about the universal tracking deal, since it wasn't too long ago that Versatile introduced me to it but from what I gather, if everything goes smoothly with that list you printed and all those basic gameplay mechanics will indeed be worked into the next game, then the universal tracking may not be needed. DA was way too linear in move design which without universal tracking would have made it sidestep, punish, sidestep, punish. If the movement and move properties are improved and otherwise dealt with accordingly then universal tracking probably will not be needed. It may even break the game.

I already know what to do with MK6 ;)

obstacle 1: I have to actually get on the MK team
obstacle 2: convince Ed to prototype my ideas and put them in the game.

I think both of those goals are attainable...I just need to do a good job whne I talk to Ed.

I think if Ed realises how awesome Drahmin turned out he would be willing to hear me out on my ideas. Drahmin used to be horrible but damn,he turned out awesome.

I agree alot with what some of the other guys are saying and also try not to throw in last minute stuff. I loved Blaze but the fact that he didn't have his own move set or fatality pissed me off. Also don't put in crappy characters taht have no real relevance (Mokap)

1wyst Wrote: I agree alot with what some of the other guys are saying and also try not to throw in last minute stuff. I loved Blaze but the fact that he didn't have his own move set or fatality pissed me off. Also don't put in crappy characters taht have no real relevance (Mokap)

Mokap does have relevance...

Mokap was a tribute to Carlos Pesina.

Animator and motion capture guy for MK

One of the first members of the original MK team.

He was Raiden in MK2.

If Carlos doesn't deserve to have an MK character nobody does.

I wish more people understood how important to MK he really is.

MrSchpfmut Wrote: Goddamn where did this thread come from?? I NEED INTERNET AT MY APARTMENT! Screw you Comcast! Ok, so anyways... Saty, you were commenting on the frame data, if any, in DA. I'm not sure if there is or isn't any, but if I recall correctly Ray mentioned to me during our haul back from Philly that Ed has always used 'spheres' around the model's extremities for hit detection. Personally, I would be more interested to see the 'spheres' worked into the game and possibly affect it than a huge frame database. While I do agree frame counts have been a good way of mathematically balancing other games, it would be great to see a game take into consideration - who is actually hitting who! The spheres are of various sizes (Sonya's TKD 3 is HUGE) depending on the ferocity of the attack or the current insanity level of Ed. Maybe frame data is somewhat used with the sphere idea. I don't know everything, but maybe it can be used to effect certain properties like the strength of an attack, or reaction by opponent rather than just having an 'Impact Frame' so to say. For example: if your opponent tries to evade an attack and gets hit before the attack’s full strength, it will have a different outcome. Characters’ reaction times could be affected, less damage inflicted, or maybe even cause you to stumble somewhat.

Funny you mention hit detection. The past few months I've been pretty interested in hit detection, how the boxes are set up and how their scaling is actually determined. Speaking of scaling, I loved it in TT how you could do tag electrics and the hit box would get like twice the normal size, lol. "WTF!! I was like halfway across the f*&king screen!!! Since when did Jin get a ninja teleporing ewgf!?!"

Spheres? WTF? That's interesting, indeed. Most articles and algorithms I've read - or rather, tried to read - regarding hit detection revolve around the idea of "that hit box" being of a cubic nature and simply - hah - trying to reduce the consumption of resources being consumed to calculate that hit area.

I find this sphere idea interesting. A sphere is esentialy the perfect geometric shape. Which means that the hit box/area is always the same, always consistant - aside from it's actual position in space - no matter where the player is in relation to their opponent. Unless, the developers spcecifically choose to alter that sphere whenever or wherever they see deamed fit.

A hit "box", on the other hand, can alter an area simply on how it's rotated. It's volume, size, whatever doens't need to change in order to affect that area. So in application or actual play, the player can flip the oppenent or hit them from an arbitrary angle, and because of the nature of a geometric cube, the "hit box" and it's area has been altered. This can be be seen clearly in juggles. Take T4 Kaz as an example. An electric connects differently, spacing wise, on a fliped opponent than it does on a standard floating opponent.

Anywho, this assumption is taking into account that the hit box is actually part of the character, rotating itself acordingly to that character. If my assumption is true, then a sphere system of hit detection allows the designers to control more precisely what the player(s) can and cannot connect in a given situation. Where as a "box" allows the players to "choose" what they want to connect, or it creates less linearity as far as move properties go. It seams more open ended. Know what I'm getting at 0_o?

Anywho, it's just my ass thinking right now. If I am completely off base in my assumption, then please, let me know just how retarded I realy am.

Also, Ray or Mr.S could you let me know just how Ed sets up the spheres, theoreticaly? Are they infact true, perfect spheres or more elipticle? Also, are these spheres alligned along the characters individual limbs and body? Say, there is a seperate sphere for the foot, tibia, torso etc? Finnaly, do the spheres change shape, simply not volume? For instance, a perfect sphere morphing into an elips, depending on a defined situation?

BTW, Mr.S, my roomate and I had Cumcast for our pipe...it suxorz hardcore. That shizzle was down like half the time the fist three months we got it. Plus, they don't have any news groups! How the hell am I supposed to download spam free, quality, hardcore asian porno for free!? Funny, though, we got another roomie, so then we could get a business line costing like $100 and service magically got better. Grr...

I for one, would love to see more believable Fatalitys, no more head streches, or arms being pulled off, or head pops as the case maybe.

Yeah, I know its hard to think of believable fatalitys when you've got characters who breech realism, Ie: Reptile, and the Lizard King.. but come on now, for the ones that are believable, say Cyrax, I'd expect something Cybernetic.


As for the Martial Arts, fantastic job. I for one would like to see a Martial Arts library that is true and devoted to the real style of the kombat, not an inventive style.

Weapons, needs to be improved as said before, they did feel very much like a part of the characters body, not as an additional thing. One suggestion I have is to make the weapons visible at all times because I have no idea ( and I'm not sure I want to know ) where Reptile kept that blade. I mean yeah, maybe Sub-Zero can conjure his at will, after all he can make an "operational" boat out of ice.. so he could conjure a huge sword, but we'd have to see him take the time to conjure it. I don't expect a weapon to appear out of absolutely no where. That for me was the biggest flaw.

Enviromental interaction, Yeah, the randomly placed things like the ice stalagtites on the floor added a nice touch, but if your going to do them, make them work.. don't just place them in random spots and hope characters do combos off of them, because they feel just.. placed in there. Maybe if a character uses an object to their advantage, they can get a bit of a bonus damage amplification.. I know when I'm slammed up against a wall or something it hurts, and it hurts even more when someone hits me into that wall at full force.

I would love to see FMV's, for the characters, and a back history Biography for Konquest. I enjoyed Konquest, but damn did it get hard!

Koffins- Totally a keeper. I loved unlocking some of the stuff, but what was with the empty ones, or the ones that were useless? I want more functional things.. maybe for the most expensive ones you could unlock MK1, MK2, and MK3, or UMK3. Emulation is a wonderful thing and it could revive Midway's classics, I know that I still am on the look out for an MK2 arcade cabnet to install into my apartment. :].

I would love to see the original plans to have damage skins and body tearing back as EGM originally reported that DA would have. Over all, MK DA is probably my second favorite Mortal Kombat.

Keep up the good work Ray, and Ed. I hope to hear more.

i'm actually suprised at the intelligent replies that this thread has recieved. lots of good stuff mentioned in this thread. but overall MKDA doesnt really need frame adv it just needs frames lol. i mean i know its got frames but what i mean is just enough frames adv not really for adv but just enough to make moves safe so that u dont need to bdc of stuff to make it safe so that if it does hit u can follow up rather then having to walk across the screen again to pressure after bd. another HUGE fucking problem with DA is that the characters keep the animations of blocking moves even if no moves r connecting which makes certian moves inescapeable/unpunishable. for example: if u r say shang and i am nitara and u r across the screen and r blocking and i do my branch your chatacter will go through the hand movements of blocking the branch as if i were doing it right next to u but i am actually doing it across the screen and the moves arent even making contact!! this makes moves like drahmins and jaxs pound inescapeable if u r blocking when i am doing the move. also, if i am doing an impale from a range where it just BARELY wiffs u cant punish it cuz u go through the block animation right there as if u actually blocked it close thus making impale attempts safe if done right. another thing that can be considered a problem with DA(but not really as i am about to explain) is high hits hitting u in transition to low block. now this isnt actually a problem in DA cuz there r a lack of mid moves that actually do damage. i mean, there r a few moves that do 18-20% but those moves u can count on 1 hand. because of this it actually works out good that a branch will hit u as u transend from high to low block but wont hit if u r aleady crouching. because of all the characters can punish with decent damage for attempting a low block. in Mk6, if u take out the high hits hit u on the way down stuff then there needs to be more mid moves worth using. another problem is the poking. for example, JAX: his best poke is mauy thai 2(his jab) its fast, got great range, and leads to 60%. HOWEVER, dont even think of doing 2 jabs cuz if u do then u r raped!!! u will be interrupted. if u continue with the branch(on block)u will be interrupted, if u do 2 hits and block u will still be hit. there is nothing u can do after poking with 2 hits but die in DA. u can even interrupt drahmins ff+2 clock hand move on the 3rd hit!!! u need to atleast allow people to poke with more then single hits that u cant even react to if they hit to finish your damage. the tech system is actually fine. some moves can be teched, others cant, some can only be teched by a side roll, others can be teched by a side roll or a safe getaway back roll unlike tekken where if someone has esp they can actually hit u no matter how u roll and u cant block it. i also think the wall/wall tech system is good but instead of barriers make acatual walls. and now that i think of it, a way to run forward would be nice too. also, the block damage is great. its MK. u gotta keep that.





please excuse the grammer as i just slapped this together and i suck at typing so theres probably a billion type-o's

_NE0_ Wrote: i'm actually suprised at the intelligent replies that this thread has recieved. lots of good stuff mentioned in this thread. but overall MKDA doesnt really need frame adv it just needs frames lol. i mean i know its got frames but what i mean is just enough frames adv not really for adv but just enough to make moves safe so that u dont need to bdc of stuff to make it safe so that if it does hit u can follow up rather then having to walk across the screen again to pressure after bd. another HUGE fucking problem with DA is that the characters keep the animations of blocking moves even if no moves r connecting which makes certian moves inescapeable/unpunishable. for example: if u r say shang and i am nitara and u r across the screen and r blocking and i do my branch your chatacter will go through the hand movements of blocking the branch as if i were doing it right next to u but i am actually doing it across the screen and the moves arent even making contact!! this makes moves like drahmins and jaxs pound inescapeable if u r blocking when i am doing the move. also, if i am doing an impale from a range where it just BARELY wiffs u cant punish it cuz u go through the block animation right there as if u actually blocked it close thus making impale attempts safe if done right. another thing that can be considered a problem with DA(but not really as i am about to explain) is high hits hitting u in transition to low block. now this isnt actually a problem in DA cuz there r a lack of mid moves that actually do damage. i mean, there r a few moves that do 18-20% but those moves u can count on 1 hand. because of this it actually works out good that a branch will hit u as u transend from high to low block but wont hit if u r aleady crouching. because of all the characters can punish with decent damage for attempting a low block. in Mk6, if u take out the high hits hit u on the way down stuff then there needs to be more mid moves worth using. another problem is the poking. for example, JAX: his best poke is mauy thai 2(his jab) its fast, got great range, and leads to 60%. HOWEVER, dont even think of doing 2 jabs cuz if u do then u r raped!!! u will be interrupted. if u continue with the branch(on block)u will be interrupted, if u do 2 hits and block u will still be hit. there is nothing u can do after poking with 2 hits but die in DA. u can even interrupt drahmins ff+2 clock hand move on the 3rd hit!!! u need to atleast allow people to poke with more then single hits that u cant even react to if they hit to finish your damage. the tech system is actually fine. some moves can be teched, others cant, some can only be teched by a side roll, others can be teched by a side roll or a safe getaway back roll unlike tekken where if someone has esp they can actually hit u no matter how u roll and u cant block it. i also think the wall/wall tech system is good but instead of barriers make acatual walls. and now that i think of it, a way to run forward would be nice too. also, the block damage is great. its MK. u gotta keep that. please excuse the grammer as i just slapped this together and i suck at typing so theres probably a billion type-o's

I know we already talked about this stuff, but it's nice to have it here so I can just copy and paste.

_NE0_ Wrote: i'm actually suprised at the intelligent replies that this thread has recieved.

This is something that bothers me. Not that _NE0_ said it but that it seems like a trend to me. Here's the deal, there's tons of video games out there that have a stereotypical fan. The fan that pops into the heads of many people when a certain game is mentioned. And often times, it's a negative one. Before I say anything I just want to say I'm not trying to offend anybody but rather just make a point. I'm actually a big fan of all the games I'm about to mention.

Of course this is all a generalization on my part based on trends I've seen in my community and on message boards so don't take it as etched in stone. But when you ask someone about the stereotypical Final Fantasy fan you're often going to get something along the lines of a hermit-like graphics whore. When you ask about the stereotypical Virtua Fighter fan you may end up with something like a stuck up "I play Virtua Fighter therefore I > You." As for MK, it's that the stereotypical MK fan is stupid and just doesn't know any better. I've seen first hand accurate representations of all three of them but what bothers me is that so many people seem to take those few individual accounts and apply that as a basis for the whole fanbase. I like all three of those series and I don't think I fit into any of those categories.

What I'm trying to say is that MK needs to shake that stereotype. I don't know if it exists everywhere. I'd like to know if it doesn't. I hope it doesn't actually and my sense of the situation is off base making all this a moot point. I don't want to put any unneccessary pressure on anybody but MK's technical revisions also need to be accompanied by image revisions. I think we all can agree that the MK name was whored out a little too much back in the day. It was everywhere and on everything. Some of those things it didn't need because it kind of hurt the game's integrity. The Sunday morning cartoon Defenders of the Realm for example did more harm than good I think. By putting MK on Sunday morning is like Todd McFarlane making a Saturday morning Spawn cartoon. The second film did the same thing. Not to mention the hordes of stuff like lunch boxes, Halloween costumes, and kids pajamas. It strips the feeling and emotion that the original art is supposed to give and turns it into a circus.

Marketing is a good thing, don't get me wrong, but it seemed like the franchise was going to far out of it's place. There's a reason you don't see Pokemon advertised during Late Night with Conan O'Brien. Things are much better now but I think that's one of the reasons MK gets slammed a lot. People who are doing the slamming remember all to well the saturation of the market with MK and don't have many fond memories of it.

Hey Ray,

Glad you could take the time to get input for MK6.

I'll like to go back to more special moves, especially transports. Maybe Less Combos. With more special moves, more causal fighters will probably buy the game. Make them spectacular, but not tacky.

Better Jumps. Seemed like gravity was kinda heavy.


While you are at it, why don't you ask about the "Final Secret." If it is the version code, then so be it. But there needs to be more of a hint. I think people have exhausted themselves trying to figure it out.

Thanks.

Satyagraha Wrote: My roomate and I had Cumcast...

LOL! Cumcast! I had cable internet at my parents through them, and I actually never had a problem. And they hooked me up with free cable, so I won't complain to much. It's better than dial-up. Fuck that! I'm not getting DSL either cuz i'm not getting a phone line.

---

Anyways...

I could be wrong, but it would seem to me that “hit box” was a term used in 2d games because the sprites were “box” shaped. I do like the spinning cube idea you were talking about, but would the difference in calculation time between a sphere and a cube really be that big of a concern anymore bearing in mind the processing power we have? I mean, depending on the scale of the character model, I can’t imagine these objects to be that large.

I would also believe (with no ACTUAL knowledge of how they really programmed it) that the detection objects could be formed at the time of a specific attack. Logically thinking, all of the movement data is in memory when the match begins, so maybe the objects are linked to the movement of the respective attacks, yet independent of each other and the character model. They would also have different “function calls” when they intersect with another model giving you different reactions from different types of attacks.

I’ve also seen footage of Scorpion using Shotokan, Sub using Tae Kwon Doe, and a few other character/style swaps. Only because of this, it makes me think that Midway is able to apply animations to other characters. Oh and I’m sure you noticed that some characters share victory poses. Sorry I’m going OT a little

But let me say one thing I’m not 100% sure if they are actually spheres or not. I’m just recalling from a conversation Ray and I had previously. They could be of various shapes and sizes for all I know. Plus, I wouldn’t be surprised if Sc2 used some sort of planar geometry for hit detection with it’s Vertical / Horizontal attacking system.

But really, did you ever question a hit in DA? I can think of very very few times where I’ve been like o_O WTF? The only ones I’ve questioned usually came when trying to jump kick and someone side-steps and it still connects. Other than that, DA has pissed me off the least out of most of the fighting games I’ve ever played, in the hit-detection area.

---

Shit, i have a couple more ideas to talk about, but I have too much to do at work right now. I'll be back later to tell yous guys bout em.

They are called collision spheres

they are literally balls surrounding areas of the characters skeleton.

thanks for all the info guys...I finished up my report on MKDA last night.

Although I was aware of alot of these issues, it's nice to have them confirmed by the people that actually play the game.

thanks again

rayrokka Wrote: They are called collision spheres they are literally balls surrounding areas of the characters skeleton. thanks for all the info guys...I finished up my report on MKDA last night. Although I was aware of alot of these issues, it's nice to have them confirmed by the people that actually play the game. thanks again

So that's it huh? Damn! Sorry ray. I wish I could have put more in time. I just want you guys to put the right fighting styles for the right characters and such and you did that with some of them. And I'm sure you guys are researching more on the different fighting styles, the ones used in MK: DA as well as some others. I do have some suggestions and you are interested, I can PM them to you...or something like that..

damn too late! why did i have to go away?

Well, it's late, but I'll say something anyway.

Have Wall combos like in VF4 and Tekken4.

Also have throws change if you are near a wall again like in VF4, and DOA3.

Throw escapes should be as complex looking as the throws themselves. I'm thinking like VF4, also throw reversals which are done in real life a lot.

The command for a throw reversal could be to tap Reversal when thrown.


Like in Tekken tag a reversal is < 1+3, you would be able to reverse a throw with the same thing.

Or do it like the VF4 throw escapes. Input the last command of the throw.


Everything else I can think of right now has already been stated.

------------------------------------------

Good luck Ray, I hope you get the job.

Another thing to keep in mind is while you are paying so much attention to the game play, don't forget about eye candy and style.

Lot's of flashy things are a must.

The Wow effect is what I'm talking about.

All i want is more and worthy secret fighters. blaze and mokap had the same moves as others. create one that is special and has koo moves and fatality too.

I feel there is only one thing wrong with MK:DA

THERE IS NO PC PORT
WHY???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

quite simple.

no money to be made in the PC market. with online piracy at an all time high, Midway would either lose money or make a small amount of money that wouldn't affect sales numbers.

u think about that everytime u use kazza , ok kids?

I don't use Kazaa. With a 56kbps Modem it would be quite stupid.
BUT
A lot of people would buy it. This game has its history on PC and the fith episode needs to take its place on my shelf.

I know it's probably a bit too late, but Special Moves have been fazed out because they lacked the one thing that made them good - they were powerful/useful for distractions/setup for other moves.

Hardly any of the special moves pack as much a punch as a combo does. Scorpions Spear was actually feared because it was generally followed-up with the all-powerful uppercut. Now, it seems kind of pointless, despite being his signature. And Summon Hellfire? The trade-off was TERRIBLE. It was real hard to hit with, and left you wide open, but when it did hit, it was weak.

If you're worried about moves being too strong, make the button combo's real hard to pull off. Dexterity should be a big bonus. I'd be willing to pull off ->+HP for 3 flaming skulls/fireballs just like I always was.

Shang Tsung's shapeshifting ability has been removed for obvious reasons. Perhaps, in that case, it should be more focused on he steals an enemy's ability temporarily?

FOR GODS-SAKE EXPAND ON THE POWER-UP/Reversal/Taunt/Escape. Some of these could be incorperated as Defense-up as opposed to Power-Up, and power/defense down for usage against enemies. Sure, it's a little Pokemon-esque, but it adds a whole new level to the game. How about parrying with weapons? A counter system. EG: Quan Chi (Tang Soo Do) throws a Punch at Mavado (Long Fist). Mavado counters by grabbing the fist, ducking under and performing a pop-up attack.

More interactive scenery! I felt that the jump and crouch buttons were unessecary unless coupled with block. How about a stage with a rotating blade in the middle, that you had to duck/jump over occasionaly? Or a stairwell! Imagine the possibilities of a dining hall, like jumping on tables and stuff!

Items as weapons. Ehrgeiz worked with this a little. For example, a dining hall, you can throw a chair at someone or something. Perhaps slide down the banister of a stairwell to attack a person?

Give Konquest a bit more depth, or possibly change it into a Return of the King/Ehrgeiz/ Streets of Rage/Tekken Force style game. We hear about these armies all the time, how about we FIGHT them for a change?

everything

Wow I cant believe I completely forgot about this thread, but I have a real good idea on the next game, and I hope it makes it. The run button is so annoying, so please lets not include it this time, but here is what needs to be done about the issue. There needs to be a button so that when it is touched, he walks faster, kinda like speed walking. That would make the game alot more interesting. That way, players have the choice of reverting back and forth from fast paced walking to regular walking.

Okay, I'm gonna try and make this as simple as possible.
Flaws:
-Barriers. Ditch those. Make them as interactive as DOA, or be ambitious and go beyond that!
-Style Branch Combos. Too freakin' hard. They're the only reason I haven't beat Konquest yet. Aside from I lost my memory card.
I'll post more later. School for me.