I have read your message entirely (no, I don't lie) and even if it was too much stuffed with repetitions, it was quite interesting, although already known or experienced...

I never have played with Moe, but unless he is much better than you, he is probably not better than me
Moreover I guess that when you have played with him, you didn't plan to check who from kabal or human smoke is the best...so I don't understand why you talk to me about your matches with him...it's not related to the point ...

the "Ed Boon" stuff was just to show you the difference between a fact and an opinion but I guess you haven't understand : indeed , Ed Boon doesn't need to have the biggest eyebrows in the world to let me say that he has big eyebrows. I was talking about that to give you an example of a "real" fact.

About the combos, even if the "63%" human smoke's corner combo is less powerful than the "68%" kabal's corner combo, it is in fact much easier to do, and if you plan to pull off the "13 hits" kabal's combo with the 3 groups of "jump kicks/fireballs"in the middle of a battle against a high level player, then you will have a really hard time ! (besides, when we have played together, you couldn't have pulled it off, even the short version) ... I mean it's mainly the effectiveness of a combo (easy or not to place for example) that is important, it's not only know if the combo is 63 or 68% damage. Moreover you can begin the combo for human smoke by a jump punch starter too (at least if you do after the "HK,LP" version of the little uppercut combo, not the "LK,LP" version) and in that case it will be a bit more powerful than 63% damage...anyway...

about the punisher and anti-air combos, even if kabal is more powerful in the corner , the kabal's midscreen punishers are less powerful than the h.smoke's one, so it simply depends on the place where the characters are ... but unlikely to kabal, human smoke can move quickly from left corner to right corner at the ground level as well as at the air level , and it's really useful when you are blocked against the wall and you want to escape ...
I mean h.smoke can perform his teleport punch in the air, but kabal can't do his spin in the air, so it's more convenient to escape the opponent and play with the distance when you're hsmoke.

it's not exactly true to say that Ermac is the king of damage, since I really can't imagine how he can have a more powerful combo than the 100% kung lao's infinite one...and even if a character had such a combo, it would be useless of course...

you really seem to think that kabal can be considered stronger than h.smoke cause he has "a kind of " airthrow too...but H.smoke (or scorpion or ermac besides) can easily escape his spin by teleporting in the middle of a jump...moreover, between high level players I already have noticed then we use the kabal's spin mainly (only ?) to catch the opponent in the air, when he does a jump kick forward you, since if your spin is blocked, you will have to face a painful punisher...so that spin move of course put a pressure on the opponent but unless you play a not very experienced mk player, it's quite dangerous in my opinion to use it often.

I think there can be a misunderstanding about this thread, cause do we talk about the effectiveness or the power of the characters? I can admit Kabal has a more powerful combo than H.smoke in the corner and maybe that makes of him the most powerful character in the game , but I really doubt he can outplay human smoke if both of them are in expert hands.


pierre

I honestly don't think you understood a word I said, even if you did read it, maybe it's the language barrier, I don't know, but my points are irrefutable as shown through your answers.

Matt

Listen, if like me, it's only the answer to the question "who is the best between human smoke and kabal" that interests you, please DO what I have suggested you in my previous mails....it will be much simple...play with your friend Moe (or thrower for example) about 20 matches, you will take Kabal (since you claim loud he rules) and the other guy will take human smoke and you will tell us about the results...and after that and not before I will change my mind if the result follow your opinion
but I really doubt it will ...

(one last word : I also have over ten years of regular experience with that serie so I really know what you're talking about )

pierre

Hard to say. Pretty much everything depends on momentary choices of what you make during a fight. there are several tactics, but I think Kabal has more damage-wise combos. God, I need to play MK3 again.

Honestly, it's not hard to say, Kabal is the best character.

Matt

Honestly if you think about it guys,no matter who you say is the best character,in the end not yours nor mine unfortunetley is a fact,because we don't work for midway,this is all opinions,i started this thread to see all of your different opinions on the topic at hand,so unless anyone here actually works for MIDWAY,then these are all mere opinions based on your own success with that individual character.Now if MIDWAY actually comes on here tomorrow lets just say for example,and says hey guys nice threads,but just so you all know, we are midway and and we made MK,so therefore we know who is the "BEST CHARACTER" is.So in a nutshell guys if MIDWAY says Kabal is the best character in UMK3,or Ermac is the best character in the game then guess what guys,Ermacs the best character in the game.We as the strongest MK fans in the world,can only think who is the best character in UMK3 or any MK game period,unless any of us in here has actually had a part in the making of UMK3,its just our opinions not FACTS,midway knows the facts,they made the game not us.
Think of it as a car manufacturer,GM creates the corvette,we just drive it.Or chevy if you want to be specific.

P.S.The creator always knows more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But i do love the drama in this topic,keep it up guys!!!!!!!!!!Its awesome

I don't think the creators would know better then the highest level tourny players personally. Also, I seriously doubt the creators were aware of even all the combos possible in the game. I say this half hoping one would step up and discuss it, but I doubt one will ever see this.

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m477
-Edit wow what the Hell is that? April Fools...Here is my original post translated from leet to funky english via a translation tool:
Yeah, I dephinitely know more about the system oph the gaem than ed boon, he has even stated yomselph cwhetehr anyone belleves the guy when he's even belng selph-deprikating) that he gets romped aphter the phirst kouple months for gaem is out. he's out to make for produkt and earn money, not to play it, wyokh is why phor the most mk gaems are broke as for joke when I say "kabal is the best kharakter in umke" I'm not saylng "i tyonk kabal is the best kharakter in the gaem" or even "most reasonable mk players would agree that kabal is the best kharakter in the gaem" no one has brought for single polnt that kan kounter the statement. list all the kharakters, and tell me why any one oph tehm is better than kabal, I kan see that most people who disagree do not have nearly enough experlenke with the gaem
matt

Kabal has way too many ways to do damage and is completely safe doing so. The spin is so completely broken, it's not even funny. It hits on even the slightest touch of an opponents hitbox. While airborne opponents are spun, you can kiss half your lifebar gone and it's done being on the defensive, not rushing in and attacking like H.Smoke has to do.

I can't explain it as good as some people can, but Kabal is definitely the best character in UMK3 and MKT hands down.

I can't stress it enough that Kabal has infinite advantages in the game, as Konqrr pretty much stated.

He has something that makes him better than each and every character no matter how well the other character is played, which is why he is the best.

If you aren't thinking objectively about this, you will never understand why. I'm not saying "Only use Kabal in tournaments and against your friends" that's silly. Use whoever you want because chances are you're not going to play against a Kabal player who is so good that you won't stand a chance, but at any tournament you are going to come across someone who will resort to Kabal to beat other characters, and most likely take it home.

Matt

Well i'll be more specific Dreem,when i say the creator,i should have mentioned this,my fault,i mean the programmers/testers for gliches,i know that boon even said that there were combos with kabal and MK2 kitana among a few others that he has not even seen before in his imagination,or even thought were possible.

Even though the testers look for gliches and so forth,im sure that a few of them clearly found out for themselves that Kabal or Ermac are the most powerful characters in the game.

I still think that its all about opinion,especially the way i'm asking it in my thread headline.I said specifically "Who in your opinion do you feel is the most powerful character.Although your saying all of this based on your opinions as you think are facts,but just because a few people say Kabals the most powerful doesn't mean that its a fact!!!!!!!

Unless you do three things,defeat all of the worlds best UMK3 players world wide with the ever mighty Kabal,two actually test it out programmer wise to the every nick and nack to actually prove this theory,and three pass it by MIDWAYS top combo programmers as well as their best testers to see if they agree,remember these guys play the game way before it comes out to the public and have no life except to come to work and play MK all day for all types of reasons,so to say that they have nothing to do with that decision would be arrogant.And no i didn't say Ed Boon,he doesn't play the game nearly as much,he just creates it.

I agree with you that I think who the best is depends a bit on opinion. If I was better and had more experience playing others I'd probably say otherwise, but for now thats how I feel.

And, we've talked to an UMK3 tester and his accolytes. They didn't believe our combo videos were possible. So, perhaps there was a lot of other things they didn't know. I can see not figuring out all the crazy stuff we did, but it seems like nobody knew about the relaunch infinites that so many characters have. Apparently everyone thought it was only Classic Sub. And that is sad.

I think they knew about Kabal's but only thought it was possible on the Robot ninjas.

Matt

yes, Ed Boon and his team did'nt probably know about the existence of all the discovered combos in the games ... in fact it reflects that it's hard to say
"I know all the possibilities with a character " and that shows again that it's as much "how you use a character " than " the inherent strenght of the characters" that prevail ...
I have decided to give up that thread , but since it seems to have some success and popularity I just want to add something :
trying to prove the superiority of a character by developping all his possible combos in every situations and studying the different damages without having in mind "easy or impossible to pull off" is stupid and useless...
I remind of the Matt's post where he compares kabal and human smoke's moves in different situations , but he is not consistent ,because with the same type of arguments, we also can prove to everyone that kung lao is by far the best character in the game, indeed : he has in the corner a 100% damage combo (better than kabal), in the middlescreen he also has a 100% damage combo (better than kabal), his punishers are 100% damage (better than kabal) and the pressure of his infinitie is much stronger than the pressure of the kabal's spin cause of that infinity combo !
that shows pretty well that it's the effectiveness that is important , like I repeat from the start , and not a study only based on the characters' damages and possibilities...
I'm also a bit disappointed to see that Matt is unable to make the difference between theorical knowledge and the effectiveness (our friend seems to be very proud of his "I teach you" post, even if it really doesn't impress me, since there was nothing new to me...he even made a mistake by saying kabal can avoid being hitted by the human smoke's teleport punch, by doing his fireball near the ground..indeed it 's just true in the case of an aerian teleport punch)... I would rather agree with what I have read before , from mklegend or dreemernj ...
the point is I definitely can imagine any character winning against any other character, even if there is a possible hierarchy, because that hierarchy can't be based in the same time on the effectiveness and on the "how much damage is that combo" stuff, and you can't see that probably because you always play against the same players ... if we were able to play each other in good conditions I would teach you modesty.
Chicago can maybe be proud of you since you're , like me, among the best umk3 players, but definitely not be proud of your way of thinking and arguing.


pierre
(the hidden MK boss from Belgium)

So now we have a few guys that think Kabal is the strongest,as well as kung lao now,seems interesting.......so now it's an argument or disagreement rather about comparing Kabal to Kung Lao......this is very interesting indeed.

It is about application. In order to determine top tier characters lots of people need to play the game for a long period of time. Kabal is the toppest of tier in UMK3 by far, there's no possible way to argue it, Human Smoke and Kung Lao aren't even close to him when he is played at the absolutely best he can be played. Even if Kabal couldn't do ground combos he's still be number 1, you can't get that through your heads. If Kabal had damage protection from his spin, he's still be number 1.

The greatest UMK3 player in the world once said somet to the effect of: "If you can't understand why Kabal is the best character in the game, you haven't played good enough players."

The bottom line is, all I really have to say to you guys is you aren't as good as you think you are, and your posts prove it because you don't know what you're talking about.

Nafa, you only know a handful of tactics with a couple characters, and even then you don't always win, that = you have a lot to learn. There are a lot of players who will agree with me on that.

MKflegend, you lack of knowledge is abounding when it comes to competitive play, I am still waiting for you to contact me about playing online but I don't think that's going to happen.

I know I am not the best player, but I'm the only good player who tries to get other people to play still. I am more than happy to play any of you guys, teach you what I know, but until you can acknowledge things like "There is a best character to play as if you want to win in games" you're not going to be able to learn the other characters to the level needed to even stand a chance against a professional Kabal player.

I'm now going to flame the thread by saying this:

Nobody cares who thinks who is the most powerful character, I can give you reasons why I might think Roll is the most powerful character in Marvel Vs Capcom, but no one truly cares. The only thing people who actually play the games care about it who actually IS good to use, and some of specialize in some characters here and there, but I guarantee it's not good enough to beat even average Kabal players.

Matt

I think your tune would change about my knowledge,once you play me believe me,i went through the same thing in Deception,a bunch of guys thought i was unworthy.They were wrong,i'm one of the best in Deception,i have no doubt in my mind that that applies to UMK3 as well,and yes i did answer your question MK2kung,you have to read buddie,either in this forum or the other one concerning MKT for both systems,i said,i have high speed internet DSL,i live right near a verizon antenna station so i get sweet service,i live on the east coast NYC,anything else you want to know???I have answered your question KUNG,now you answer mine how do i go about getting MKT online via PSX or N64?????

And one more thing,i don't believe that there is a "BEST PLAYER" in the world,especially in MK,way,way too much competition.Your either a good player or a bad one.Of course theres the average MK player as well.

Just because i may or may not be able to go online inUMK3,does not mean that i have no knowledge or suck,if you really believe that,no offense but thats an arrogant thing to say.

I have never ever played you so therefore in respect of my opponent,i won't and cannot judge you,i only ask you do the same for me,i hate it when people say oooh you suck or your not a worthy opponent,especially when you never played me.

The best UMK3 player in the world is Lex from Chicago.

The best character in UMK3 is Kabal.

No, being good at Deception has absolutely nothing to do with being good at UMK3 and vice versa, they are completely different games.

Matt

I was just reviewing the info on it and actually, as far as I can tell Kabal pretty much is the most powerful in UMK3. He has the combos, the damage, the Dash o' death, good regular moves like uppercut and roundhouse, good hit zones.

He is the best.

MKFLegend, did you take part in the Deception tourny here at the site?

"The greatest UMK3 player in the world once said somet to the effect of: "If you can't understand why Kabal is the best character in the game, you haven't played good enough players."

always that "kabal is the best player " stuff ... anyway I have an another idea to explain you better why that statement is false : if you want to do a hierarchy between the characters, you need to choose criteria (for example "does he have or not an airthrow ", "how much damage is his/her corner combo? ", etc....) , but if you wish to be very accurate in order to determinate who is the best one, you will have to choose and check a sufficiently high number of criteria, but after having done that, how will you balance the importance of each criterion to draw your conclusion?
you will soon see that it's impossible unless you arbitrary give to some criteria a higher importance than to some others, but in doing so, your conclusion will be skewed...so it's like I say from the start, it's nonsense to absolutely want to have a hierarchy between the characters of the game....in fact the only existing hierarchy is the one between the players, and not between the characters of the game.


" The bottom line is, all I really have to say to you guys is you aren't as good as you think you are, and your posts prove it because you don't know what you're talking about. "

ah? and what do you think I think ?


"Nafa, you only know a handful of tactics with a couple characters, and even then you don't always win, that = you have a lot to learn. There are a lot of players who will agree with me on that. "

hey that's false, I play with every characters but I just have my favourite ones (like everyone in my opinion)
I don't always win? well ... I guess it's pretty normal ... do you know someone who never lose? damn


"I know I am not the best player, but I'm the only good player who tries to get other people to play still. I am more than happy to play any of you guys, teach you what I know, ... "

that's the difference between us, and that's probably why I'm not in a very comfortable position ... you, you have the opportunity to play very good players in good conditions(=good pings) for both of you ( for example Moe, thrower, mikej119 etc.....) at your american servers like dark addictz or anti3D.... but as far as I'm concerned, I'm obliged to play with newbies all the day long and that's why I'm not happy ... I don't have fun, I just make the others better at that game but I don't progress myself ...


"....but until you can acknowledge things like "There is a best character to play as if you want to win in games" you're not going to be able to learn the other characters to the level needed to even stand a chance against a professional Kabal player. "

that best character is not the same for everyone, and what the hell does mean "a professional Kabal player"? ... is playing mk has become a kind of job or what? lol


"No being good at Deception has absolutely nothing to do with being good at UMK3 and vice versa, they are completely different games. "

yes, that's in fact the only truth in this desert of subjectivity


pierre

Your personal best character has no bearing on the fundamental properties of the game that make certain characters better than others because you are not even close to the best players in the game, which is why you don't understand, nor can you accept the concept that opinions don't matter when you're dealing with mathematics.

If you programmed two computers to play Kabal perfectly and any other character perfectly against eachother, Kabal will either always win, or both characters will duck and block and never move.

You guys need to play more people, Nafa, even if it means suffering in lag on US servers, you need to do multiplayer games and watch and see.

This thread should have ended many pages ago.

Lex's explanation of Kabal:

"Kabal

Strats:

Best guy in the game because hes got the flash move. Randomly change up any offense with it, cause its ridiculously fast. Its easy to guess when people aren't going to be blocking and catch them in a flash. If someone crosses you up (or land an AA flash), just do the flash backwards then juggle with this bread and butter combo. A rj offense combined with the flash move is just incredibly too good!

Hes also got mad mad zoning with his air fireball. Do it low enough to open a path for run jabs. If they ever block an air fireball, its a free ticket to run up and rj their face off. If they ever block a jumpkick, just shoot a late air fire, then land and flash/rj/jump again... whatever. Hes also got the corner trap that I wrote up in the corner section.

Combos:

off of a Flash: crossup jump to j.HP linker into ground combo launcher, JK, fireball.

off of an AAFlash: 2xHP, JK, Fireball

off of a deep JK: rj.LP, JK, Fireball

off of a Flash in any corner: push them out a sweep distance away from the corner, crossup j.HP linker into the SHORTER ground combo launcher into the corner (HP, HP, D+HP... it finishes quicker, allowing you to juggle them higher!) JK *short pause* fireball, JK *short pause* fireball, JK *short pause* fireball, HK.

risigley: that combo you are talking about works only vs. ninjas

off of a Flash: crossup jump to j.HP linker into ground combo launcher, jump but do a DEEP, LOW JK as they are waking up, rj.LP, JK, Fireball.

punishment combo: Hp, Flash, 2xHP, JK, Fireball


oh yah, this is for everyone, but Kabal takes advantage of this tactic the most.

Duck Moves

While you are ducking with say, KABAL heh, you can do DB, then DF and hit LK to do the Flash. This give the flash ducking collision on the first frame, which is good to do when someone is trying to cross you up or jumping at you. The same thing can be done with any move that has forward and back in any variation (F-F, F-B, B-B, etc.)"

Matt

Well i still believe that there is no quote on quote best player out there,your good or not,bottom line,i have to be spcific for you to understand MK2KUNG,no shit i know Deception and UMK3 are different games,wow,i meant it as a general statement,that im good in MK games in general ok.Now you claim to know the so called LEX guy,from chicago right???And clark kent is the best in MK2 player from NY,LOL......

And no i did not take part in the Deception tourney unfortunetely because i came to MK online too late,i just got the internet in november,the rest of my family checked out the internet before i could get a chance to,i was the last to get in on the action,then i became a member of MKONLINE the second i got to it.

The funny part is that the xbox live tournament winners 1,2 and 3 have beaten up pretty badly at times,they are good players,but if i could beat them then i definitely could have competed in a tournament,mabey next time.

I would love to take any of you guys on in an UMK3 tournament!!!!!!!

"If you programmed two computers to play Kabal perfectly and any other character perfectly against eachother, Kabal will either always win, or both characters will duck and block and never move. "

you really forget something important in the mk games : the chance.
when you play a mk game, you're obliged to take a risk by attacking for example, cause if the two characters just stand in front of each other without doing nothing, there will be no winners....ands that's probably what would happen if it was possible to program 2 characters to play perfectly

the perfection is a concept that just can be approached, indeed, if playing perfectly means having an optimal strategy that allow you to always win, than no one of them can lose.

from a strategical point of view, the mk games are really like games such as "stone, paper , scissors" (if you don't know that game, it's a game where each player has to show to each other simultaneously a figure from these three ones , and the rules to know who has win are the following : scissors cut the paper, paper wrap the stone, the stone blunts the scissors..so at each match, you have a probability of 1/3 of win, 1/3 of lose and 1/3 of draw...but you're obliged to take a risk by choosing one of these 3 figures, it's just a question of "what will he think I will think? " ), and between more or less high level mk players, that's pretty much what happen ... you have to take a risk when you decide to attack him, but if you can think of what the other can do to counter your attack, either it happens like you had imagined, or either not ... so at least when the difference of level is not huge between the players, it's also about chance, and you pretty much forget that ...

"playing perfectly " is just a concept , and it definitely can't be checked since the perfection can't take risks, even little risks.
and when you tell me : "opinions don't matter when you're dealing with mathematics", I'm sorry but you don't know what you're talking about, since mathematics can also be used to show what is and what is not mathematical ... indeed I can give you an example of a real "mathematical" game, that's in fact a game that has an optimal strategy ; a strategy that allow you to win at each match : " the marienbad " : ( you have on the table 4 rows of matches, the first row has one match, the second row has three matches, the third row has five matches and the fourth row has seven matches and each player, one after the other, take some matches ,as much as they wish but just from a single row at one time, the player who must take the last match has lost ).... well, if you play the second, you have a method of playing that allow you to win ALWAYS...that is a consequence of the graph's theory. that's what we call a mathematical game, since it works following some rules which once discovered, allow you to win all the time.

it's of course not the case of video games like Mortal Kombat, where the chance plays a part too, especially between high players, it's obvious.

to be clear, "Kabal being the best " is in no way a fact, even if it's the opinion of a very good umk3 player, and has nothing to do with mathematics since you can't use any theory to even try to prove it .

even if what you have written about Kabal's possibilities is right, it can't prove his superiority since no one can predict what will do his/her opponent ,so even if you have an idea about what to do in each case, you can't know which case you will face actually.

moreover, if you're so sure of the kabal's superiority, I don't see any reasons why you don't want to try to prove it "in the middle of a match", I mean , you still haven't done what I have suggested you ... I think I can have some idea about what it means...it's incredible that you claim loud and clear that kabal is the best umk3 player and you even haven't checked it out by yourself.
until you do this, I just see that all you can do is writing what you know about some of kabal's possibilities, but that can't be enough if you want to convince people. and don't believe that I don't understand what you're talking about , it's just that your "teacher" posts , even maybe useful (if not already known of course) when playing, definitely not prove that kabal is the best.
Besides, like I said in one of my previous posts, if we use the same kind of arguments than you, we easily can prove that kung lao is the best : indeed he has more powerful combos and punishers than kabal, therefore you can see that your demonstration is false, since Lao is not the best ...
( I mean , if one can demonstrate something false, it means that it's his demonstration that is false )

one last word , you have written :
"you are not even close to the best players in the game"
come on, I wish to remind you that I have beaten you 8 matches out of 19 when we had played in your "dark addictz" server, where I had a big handicap (100ms for me and 25ms for you) so if you don't admit I'm among the best players, you're ridiculous.


pierre

"Well i still believe that there is no quote on quote best player out there"
Bullshit

"the chance"
Irrelevant.

"you're obliged to take a risk by attacking for example"
Kabal is the safest character in the game = the best, low risk/high reward.

"if playing perfectly means having an optimal strategy that allow you to always win, than no one of them can lose."
Which proves once again you don't understand that mathematics has something to do with which character is better. It's about Kabal being able to force other characters into risk situations he can capitalize on faster and better than any other character. Not combo damage, not personal ability, it is the characters' usefulness in itself. Kabal has more winning potential than any other character in the game based on mathematics. Please start to look at the game objectively, because you are not.

"the mk games are really like games such as "stone, paper , scissors"
Woooooooah completely false.

"it's incredible that you claim loud and clear that kabal is the best umk3 player and you even haven't checked it out by yourself."
This doesn't happen in one match man, this is YEARS of experience against endless players, you have a fraction of the experience I have, I have a fraction of the experience Chicago players from 95 to 99 have. Everyone above your ability disagrees with you.

"come on, I wish to remind you that I have beaten you 8 matches out of 19 when we had played in your "dark addictz" server, where I had a big handicap (100ms for me and 25ms for you) so if you don't admit I'm among the best players, you're ridiculous."

You are not even close to the best players in the game, not even scratching the surface, you have gotten a lot of lucky outrageous wins against me, all verified by Konqrr as a matter of fact. I'm going to have you play some guys sometime who know they aren't as good as I am, and see how you do, over a long period of time. Two sets of matches is not enough for *you* to determine if you got it or if you need more practice, but I can tell you from my experience, which is greater than yours, that you are not the type of player who would make it past the first round of a real life tournament. If I could fly you out to NJ in the summer for ECCX, I would.

Matt

well, i feel that i should have a say in this so here it is. From playing nafa, the two top tier chicago players sinala and oc, and sinala himself, id have to say that nafa youd probably be dead last in the "whos better" category. Thing that seperates you from the "top tier" crowd is the fact that they can actually use EVERY character on the list to destroy even the most elite of umk3 players. Just my opinion though, nothing to twist ur panties about.