Psycho,do you live in america,then you can see my point,i hope bro,USA all the way man.You either back us or not....don't rworry Psycho,he can say all he wants too now,because i'll leave for good on this topic anyway.I have a lot of friends on xbox live forum that require my undivided attention.Thats just funny how you asked that question so bluntly psycho.LOL see ya.!!!!!

Wow you like to change the subject alot all i asked is if you where leaving no need to get over dramatic pal this isnt the lifetime channel.

Thank god...

And god bless America!

ROFL yea.

Lets not all cry at once now.LOL

Just a side note: The best/worst character or aspect in any game is subjective. It's all a matter of opinion. If those opinions offend you, then one must reconsider if they should be posting here. And do I really need to restate that no one here should be flaming ANYONE'S nationality?

Anyway, please stay on topic.

There is a single best character in UMK3, and it is Kabal. I'm not saying this for my health, it cannot be argued, these people can like other characters the best, but the most powerful, in terms of high level competition, as in top tier character, it's Kabal, far and beyond, it's not a matter of opinion. If someone thinks Kabal sucks cause they can't win with Kabal, THEY suck, not Kabal. Call it elitest, but that's the way it is.

Matt

MKFLegend and Nafa do not know enough about all the characters in the game, nor the game in general to make a statement as to who the most powerful character in the game is. By asking "Who do you think is..." you are opening a can of worms because this allows any Joe Schmo to say who they think is the best for any reason, then the thread in general is unnecessary and has been covered time and time again.

By Matt posting and explaining who actually is the strongest character, through the sum of knowledge from the best UMK3 players in the world, he is relieving everyone else from having to determine it through their opinions, which do not count because this is not an opinion topic, it's only worded that way.

I know it sounds ridiculous that someone can know that much about the gameplay in UMK3, but it's true...he does.

Matt , winning with human smoke is as easy as winning with kabal (if not easier). Do what I have suggested you and you will see that Kabal won't win more matches than h.smoke , and I use that turn of phrase to be sure of not being wrong.

Konqrr you're so far from the truth about me. I know a lot about umk3 game, and probably much more than you and than many other players. I'm not a " just good " mk player. My skills definitely allow me to talk about the most effective character in the game(or should I say characterS).
Mk2kung is not the only umk3 player who is sufficiently good to be thrusted.
and what can be said about the possibilities of the characters will always remain an explanation and not a prove. therefore far from a fact.


pierre

I'm going to be blunt.

Nafa, you are talking out of your ass.

You are an average player. You have gotten lucky wins against me, and that is all, you know a few tactics over the span of 3 characters. You have only included our last two encounters but I have played you many other times and schooled you before them. And MikeJ119 owns you for free and even he will say he's not as good as I am.

You have no clue as to what you're talking about and I really wish you would just stop talking. You bring up no valid points, you only talk about personal abilities between isolated players. I'm talking about the big picture here. You DO realize there is a big picture when it comes to gaming? It's not just between the two people playing, it also includes the game itself and the characters.

There are plenty of other games that have a "best" character, it's like you have some kind of phobia or inability to accept it. Get over it, I'm tired of talking to a wall.

Why is no one arguing about Tanya being the best character in MK4? Cause you don't know JACK about MK4. TANYA IS THE KABAL OF MK4, get over it. Understand that you also don't know as much about UMK3 as you think you do.

Let me explain one more time why Kabal is better than Human Smoke and the rest of the cast. You can play super defensive fireball keep away with Kabal against just about anyone, but rush down is more effective. Against the teleport punchers, they can hit Kabal out of the air. If you jump back with Kabal, and do an air fireball as close to the ground as possible, Human Smoke's teleport punch cannot hit him. That alone is enough to put him over Human Smoke and that's all there is to it, tack on being able to spin him out of the TP mobility checks, and you have a winner. You wouldn't know this because you haven't played against good enough people during the large chunk of UMK3's competitive era, or have Lex's knowledge at your disposal (he lived it), you have played against some guys online and people in Europe. You need to play MORE people. The more the better because that is the only thing that can get you to understand it. If you played against one Kabal player who could beat you, that's not enough, you need to find more and more. Your experience limits you, as is tragically obvious from how you talk about the game. It's not always about the two players, it's about the whole game, the whole community, what is discovered through experience and application. I'm not talking from my own personal experience, I represent a collective consciousness here. I am trying to bring order to chaos.

Otherwise, you cannot rush down Kabal, it's just not feasible. The spin is too fast, too available (as in no waiting), and leads to deadliness all across the spectrum. You're never safe from it, he can spin through sweeps, standard attacks, projectiles can be outstretched and they'll miss him, the cross up spinning nonsense is too good, the hit box for the spin is GIFUCKINGGANTIC. You don't know about any of this, you never use it, and you don't discuss it. The only way to fight Kabal is to kara jab constantly until he goes for a spin. A good Kabal player will then NEVER use the spin when you're on the ground when you have the ability to block it because a good player on the counter will do just that, and since you're kara jabbing, you aren't doing damage and Kabal can play the keep away game. Things are ALWAYS in his favor, even if he's on danger and you've got 50% or more you still have to be SUPER careful against him.

This is a true story. In SFA3, you have a guy who plays in major tournys as Balrog, who is an underdog character, and another who plays as Dan. They are phenomonal players, probably the most skill there are to be able to do what they do. What they do is go up against some generic V-Sakuras and fuck them up, gets really far, but he don't win. If they used the cheesey Kabal characters of the game like V Sak and V Akuma, they would easily beat anyone who plays, but they are beyond that. However they come across players who are just so good with the cheesey bread and butter combos and tactics for the good characters, it doesn't matter. There's nothing they can do to win, just make the other person earn their win. This is when the game comes down to its OWN limitations. Developing a strategy that works to a certain degree is possible, and often works against the large precentage of players, but when you get to the finals of a tournament, you see what's up and who's on top for what reason.

Matt

Temporary user name ,i agree with you,and konquer,you never played me,so please dont judge me based on a few words i have siad here,you know on the xbox forums that a lot of people doubted my skill,and now they know that i'm the real deal,if they ever make UMK3 for the xbox,i shall prove so once again if i must,only this time,it will be UMK3 instead of deception.And by the way i don't believe i have ever faced you in Deception yet have i???I have faced just about everyone else on there.

I read and answer to your ineptitudes:

"I'm going to be blunt. Nafa, you are talking out of your ass. You are an average player."

that's huge indeed, I kick your ass, I rules in all the European servers and in England and however I'm an average player...well I guess it's the heart that speak, and not the brains.


"You have gotten lucky wins against me, and that is all, you know a few tactics over the span of 3 characters. "

lucky wins? that's what bad losers say, and you even haven't explained why you say that crap. Here is a french proverb for you but since I guess you don't understand a single french word, I translate it for you:
[Luck is the merit of the others]
and I play with all the characters since I'm a die hard MK fan , so you're completely wrong this time.


"You have only included our last two encounters but I have played you many other times and schooled you before them. "

we have met three times exactly until now. on our first encounter I still was using the keyboard that's why you have beaten me quite easily ... and our friend konqr, very pleased, had even put these "great " matches on the site, with very relevant comments like "incredible...sin performs the Lao infinity with 1/4s of delay " , but the truth is you were about 25 ms however, and I was completely owned cause I'm simply unable to play with the keyboard. after that, I have decided to buy an USB adaptator to play properly against players like you.
on our second encounter, we have played together at electronic dojo, where I have won 12/8, and right after these matches you have complained about "my outrageous lucky wins", but of course your opinion was "checked as a fact " by guess who guys? our dear friend Konqr ....
the third encounter was at your own "dark addictz" server, where we have won more or less the same number of matches, although I had a huge handicap (100 ms for me and 25 ms for you, just remember). by the way, have you also some complains about that?
so you never have schooled me, I just couldn't pull off my moves before, because of the keyboard. but don't worry, as soon as I meet someone really stronger than me (I mean someone who has really something to teach me), I will let you know.


"And MikeJ119 owns you for free and even he will say he's not as good as I am. "

you're joking or what? I repeat for you : I didn't have my USB adaptator yet against him, you don't understand that some people can't play with the keyboard or what? ... I have enough of your little stupidities.


"You have no clue as to what you're talking about ..."

man, I have almost 12 years of experience with that serie, you're ridiculous.


"....and I really wish you would just stop talking. You bring up no valid points, you only talk about personal abilities between isolated players. I'm talking about the big picture here. You DO realize there is a big picture when it comes to gaming? It's not just between the two people playing, it also includes the game itself and the characters. "

you don't read me carefully so it's your fault if you don't understand, not mine...indeed I never have said that there are not some best characters in the game, all I'm saying is : when one wants to win, he picks human smoke, so maybe European players have a different way to play than the Americans, but that's what I can see all the time. I just have noticed that human smoke is not less strong than kabal .... by the way you're completely scared at the idea of checking it with your friends or what? since I ask you for that from the start and you always do like you haven't heard...


"There are plenty of other games that have a "best" character, it's like you have some kind of phobia or inability to accept it. Get over it, I'm tired of talking to a wall. "

as far as umk3 is concerned, I would rather talk about "best characters".
yes I also think I'm talking to the wall, and probably still right now.


"Why is no one arguing about Tanya being the best character in MK4? "

probably because no one gives a shit, since mk4 is total crap


"Cause you don't know JACK about MK4. TANYA IS THE KABAL OF MK4, get over it. Understand that you also don't know as much about UMK3 as you think you do."

if you want to know why I didn't take part in that topic "which is the best mk4character ", it's not cause I don't know the game or cause I agree with you, it's just because I don't give any importance to that episode of the MK saga, so I don't feel like explaining my points, unlike I have done with umk3. to be clear, I'm talking only about what I know very well or about what interests me.


"Let me explain one more time why Kabal is better than Human Smoke and the rest of the cast. You can play super defensive fireball keep away with Kabal against just about anyone, but rush down is more effective. Against the teleport punchers, they can hit Kabal out of the air. If you jump back with Kabal, and do an air fireball as close to the ground as possible, Human Smoke's teleport punch cannot hit him. That alone is enough to put him over Human Smoke and that's all there is to it, tack on being able to spin him out of the TP mobility checks, and you have a winner."

I already have played against players who did what you're talking about : abusing very defensive fireballs, but teleport punches are your friend in that case. Moreover, if you do the teleport punch move right after jumping, you are completely safe from his spin, and you're not in danger neither of being blocked and countered by his "hp's, jump kick, fireball" punisher combo since you will land ahead and close to him. you can play really easily with the distance when you're human smoke, and even newbies can feel it . one another point : the basic h.smoke combo is 50% damage, (indeed: LK,LP close, jump kick, teleport punch, spear, LK,LP close, run in, HP,HP,HK) so if you can do it twice, it's already over ... and when combined with the runjabbing method , it becomes just too much effective to stay decent. Deadly, even for Kabal's ass.
at least, what I'm talking about here is not just theorical "impossible to pull off "stuff like you did with your kabal's combo where he has to do 3 groups of jumpkicks and fireballs against the wall. now the basic kabal combo is only 39% damage (9hits: spin, high punch starter,HK,LK,HP,HP,bas + HP,jump kick, fireball) so less than the human smoke's one.
(when I say "basic" I mean not in the corners)
but for the sake of God, play with your friends to check it by yourself, because you certainly haven't played yet in the purpose to determine who is the best between those 2 characters.


"You need to play MORE people. The more the better because that is the only thing that can get you to understand it. If you played against one Kabal player who could beat you, that's not enough, you need to find more and more. Your experience limits you, as is tragically obvious from how you talk about the game."

of course I need to play more people to improve, but the same thing applies for you. if you could play with me ( "in real" I mean, enough of these pings), I'm sure you would better understand what I'm talking about with human smoke. if you're sure you're right, let me tell you that it's just because you haven't seen yet a sufficiently good human smoke against you. but I won't do the same mistake than you, until I can meet you or anyone really good with kabal, I won't say "human smoke is the best " even if I think that way, I will rather say "hsmoke is not less strong than kabal".


"Otherwise, you cannot rush down Kabal, it's just not feasible. The spin is too fast, too available (as in no waiting), and leads to deadliness all across the spectrum. You're never safe from it, he can spin through sweeps, standard attacks, projectiles can be outstretched and they'll miss him, the cross up spinning nonsense is too good, the hit box for the spin is GIFUCKINGGANTIC."

very good players don't try to sweep kabal on the ground anyway, and human smoke has no projectile move (the spear move doesn't work exactly like a fireball or like an energy wave) so kabal's effectiveness related to these moves is no big deal in our case ... the only valid point of your mess is the fact that Kabal can catch his opponent by doing his spin if the opponent tries to jump over his head, but it's finally like an airthrow that only would work when you're just above him. but human smoke ,him, has an airthrow that works in any circumstances, and it's insanely fast, you even can perform it when the opponent is already almost on the ground.


"A good Kabal player will then NEVER use the spin when you're on the ground when you have the ability to block it because a good player on the counter will do just that, and since you're kara jabbing, you aren't doing damage and Kabal can play the keep away game. "

hey I already have talked to you about that, but I'm afraid you're a bit late. indeed here is an excerpt from one of my previous posts :

[between high level players I already have noticed then we use the kabal's spin mainly (only ?) to catch the opponent in the air, when he does a jump kick forward you, since if your spin is blocked, you will have to face a painful punisher...] posted the 03/31/2005

one last thing related to your sfa3 ending story :
when you're talking about the game's own limitations, you have to keep in mind that these limitations are discovered and used by high level players to win tourneys, but that in no way means that there is an optimal strategy that can make them win all the time, to be clear you're just allowed to say "until now,no one has found a way to counter that way of playing"...it's pretty much the same when you're playing against a boss controlled by the cpu ; until you discover a special method that allow you to win all the time, you can have the feeling sometimes that the CPU can't be defeated.
the point is, in the case of the video games (unlike some mathematical games like the "Marienbad") and especially between human players,each strategy has a weakness, and unless of course some "bugs" are involved (like the one in mk1 on snes where if you do an uppercut on your opponent against the wall, you can hit him indefinitely with high/low punches before he can touches the ground), none played character is invincible.
Therefore, if the limitations of a game mean for you the discovery of its bugs, then you can talk about a best character in a game (he will be for example the one who can use the best these bugs) otherwise you're wrong. Indeed if there are no "gameplay" bugs, each strategy can be countered, and therefore each character can be defeated..so the important thing is to find how to respond to an new attack, no matter with which character we can find that counter. so the best character in a fighting game is just the one with which we have found the solution of the last still unresolved problem (the problem being to face a very good and very used technique).
to be clear : if we could find later that sheeva for example, even if she is not that good against the other characters, is the alone because of some of her particularities in the game, who is really effective against the last found and commonly used kabal's technique, what hierarchy will you do then?


pierre

The game is 10 years old. The only things that have been discovered in the past year have been minor, minor things that haven't changed the tier list at all. Your counter strategy with Human Smoke does not work.

You can't test a generalization out between two people. There's a cause an effect here. What I am explaining to you is something that has been defined by a large number of player over years, not one set of matches.

You're European friends are quite frankly, not good enough competition for you to make those kinds of judgements. It's not "amazing" Smoke players, it's not good enough Kabal players, and there's not enough players to make even a theory. Even Venezuela players will tell you Kabal is #1.

Also, let me explain something to you about netplay. I love it, I love being able to play anyone at anytime anywhere, regardless of the lag I get, because it's all we have left for this game. Once someone starts saying how they beat me and it obviously makes them a good player when I know I'm not playing to my full level, that's when I have to put a reality check on the situation. You must have some serious lag on US servers and can say the same thing when people beat you barely and you cannot react to on sight reaction situations where you know the person is going to do something but the only way to take advantage of it is to do it within that split second.

What I'm saying is, when you play, you take unnecessary risks constantly, which is part of your look on MK and at the same time is a very bad thing. Creating critical points in game play is something you want to avoid, not make a part of the system. Even though there's a small window of vulnerability, it's still not worth it because if you do this in person, you're going to pay for it. It's why I wish I didn't have inherent lag against you, (I'm not the only person who says it either). There are some situations where you just can't not have lag, regardless of your ping, which is merely a snap shot of a to and from ping pong, and it increases and decreases constantly as you play, and depending upon the other person's actual connection, not their ping itself, can effect netplay. I have noticed that this is always the case with people from Europe. There was a guy with 95 ms named Akuma who played the Vs games and he thought he was really good cause he could beat me by the skin of his teeth every now and then, and would boast about it, but he wasn't really that good, he had a lot of netplay working to his advantage. If he never said anything about it, I wouldn't bring it up. Playing you on a US server doesn't feel much differently from playing on a European server, it's better, but not as good as playing say DreemerNJ.

If you played someone like Moe in a tourny, you would get knocked down and be very disappointed so quickly you wouldn't know what happened. I don't want to lead you into a false sense of security, but you're already doing that. Which is why when I get wins against Moe I take it with a grain of salt. I know this guy's one of the best, I can tell when there are situations that allow me to win because of obvious netplay issues, we both know when we get lucky, we're both rational. You however post the exact number of wins, which by the way you have to include the one match we did on the US server before we went over to the European servers making our official totals with you on your pad 20-20, plus the matches I won in our "first encounter" that you don't count because you were keyboard.

Based on the few characters you use, the tactics you know, combos you do, and counter juggles, you are an average player. I will play you again sometime, but I'm not playing you on a European server again, you don't deserve that luxury anymore, so take it or leave it, your European buddies aren't going to help you get better.

Matt

when I said 12 years of experience, I was talking also about the previous episodes mk1 and mk2 of course.
about the counter strategy with human smoke, I can tell you it works, you just have to abuse his teleport punch, on the ground as well as in the air.
some European players are quite good , but anyway that's all I can have if I wish to play with a decent ping, and at least , as far as I'm concerned, I try to make the other people better.
about the netplay, you're talking about the fluctuations of the ping when we are playing, but you must know that these fluctuations don't make your current ping change a lot...I mean if you can read 20 on the kaillera screen, it can fluctuate a bit yes, but it will keep in a little intervall around 20. Therefore, you never have had around 250 ms like konqr was saying.
that would just be unplayable for anyone.

my MK way of playing can also be very defensive, so when you say I take unnecessary risks, it depends on my mood. and having a very offensive game is not necessary a bad thing, for example Thrower is quite effective against most of the mk players when he does his pitbull/runjabbing stuff. however I think a good technique must be build on a defensive technique.

about the lagg, all you have said about you applies also to me, I mean if 100 ms prevent you from performing your combos, 100 ms prevent me from doing my combos as well. and if you're even not happy when we play at American servers, I don't know what else I can do. anyway, we can't have better for you than these US servers. but I can tell you that there, I'm really in a worse position than you.
about Moe, since I will have the same ping problems than with you, it doesn't interest me so much to play with him in fact.

about our results, the match you mention has already been counted in the 12/8. if you still have the record you can check it. but no matter if it's 20/19 for me or 20/20 at the end.

I'm a very fair guy when I'm playing, you can ask a lot of people I play with for that...but after having played with you for the very first time, I have seen that Konqrr had put the results of these crap matches on this site (crap matches indeed, imagine yourself put in my position, playing with the keyboard and in an American server with 100 ms, while the other has around 25ms, there was nothing I could do) with false and unpleasant comments, that you have not denied besides, and all of that gave me a feeling of unfairness. that's why I have decided to post the results of our following matches. usually I'm definitely not the kind of player who,after having won, will go like "hey do you know I have beaten that guy?" that mess was just because of konqrr's lies and the fact that you didn't deny anything from what he had said. no matter now....I just wanted to prove I was better than you, and from our results I will just say I'm not less strong than you (20/20). usually I play just for fun and I don't post anything after the matches, and now I think that's what I will do again.

"Based on the few characters you use, the tactics you know, combos you do, and counter juggles, you are an average player. "

you're always ridiculous when you say that. if I'm an average player, then so you are, since our results. by the way, here is something for you :
[errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum est]

"I will play you again sometimes, but I'm not playing you on an European server again, you don't deserve that luxury anymore"

if you don't want to play me on European servers no more, then I guess we won't meet each other anymore, since I also have decided to play only with a good ping , because I don't want to see any more "falsified" results on this site.
one last thing : who doesn't deserve who? don't forget that the beginning of that mess is because of konqr ; your guys have begun to be unpleasant and vain with me, so now deal with the ashes.


pierre

You are far, FAR from my level, from Konqrr, from the Prophet, from MikeJ119, and even further from Moe, and Lex, etc.

"Konqrr's lies" "My anti Kabal - Human Smoke strategy works" "I'm not less strong than you are" "I use all the characters"

It sickens my heart to hear you say these things.

konqrr lies, because there is a difference between 25ms and 250ms.

my strategy works since that's what I can see all the time when I'm playing.

"I'm not less strong than you are" indeed I kick your ass with a handicap.
in fact I was trying to be reconciling, but I should have written "I'm better than you".

I use all the characters yes, and I usually do random.

if you can't stand the truth, don't read my posts anymore.


pierre

I don't like reading your posts because it's just a bunch of gibberish to talk and talk and talk and never really say anything. And it's usually a couple minutes of my life I will never get back.

Matt

I think we need some online matches recorded to settle this once and for all

I have them saved, I'll send you the inps if you want so you can see the tragedy unfold, you will be AMAZED at some of the matches he wins that clearly are at the hands of netplay.

Matt

Pierre, I'm not attacking you by saying what I said...or that I am friends with Matt, so I defend him and must prove you wrong. I saw what I saw in the matches you guys had and that's that.

As for the ping thing...logically, 250ms is 1/4th of a second latency (delay), BUT, when playing against someone with a greater ping from Europe or even closer, the latency fluctuates constantly. I've had games with over 100ms where I had virtually no delay at all, and at times it would be so bad that I couldn't even play...like 2-3 seconds of delay! There are many more factors that determine latency than just what the Kaillera server window is telling you. I am NOT a liar, please do not be so rude. We are not attacking you, only trying to get you and others to see the light, when all you see is darkness.

Peace,
Konqrr

And, not to mention a lot of peanut M&M's.

Matt

yes send them please

Konqrr, if you were sincere, then you're not a liar, but you're just wrong. The "ping" thing is a number that indicates you the time needed to send you back the information that you send by pushing on your buttons, but that delay of course varies at each second with variables like the number of players in the server, the number of playing games etc...but however, that number stay in the more or less same values. the lag is a different phenomenon than the delay, lag is when the game is really slowed down from times to times , it can occur (but not necessary) if 2 players with really different pings play each other, or if a player with a hacked dll.file enters a playing game, but we can have a game with a lot of lag and no delay, as well as a game with no lag and delay. But yes, there are many factors that determine latency... however if your kaillera screen tells you 20ms , in no way you can reach 250ms “in real”, I mean of course there are fluctuations, but these are limited around the initial value.
I think it’s maybe because you’re confusing lag and delay that you can have that feeling, indeed :

"I've had games with over 100ms where I had virtually no delay at all "

don't take it bad, but it really sounds impossible/weird to me. are you sure you don't confuse lag and delay?

About MK, my first matches with our friend Matt were in an American server, you remember? anti3D I think, it's no use then to mention that I was in a really worse position than him, but if you had been impartial, you would have certainly mentioned the fact that I had a really worse ping than him, and that I was using the keyboard....because just with what you have posted, it definitely seemed like “a praise to the great sin, who has kicked a new cheap ass" post , and therefore hugely far from the truth, as shown in the following matches.
I don't think I'm rude just because I thought you were insincere, but if it was unpleasant for you, I apologize...but understand that I really haven't appreciated your commenting related to that post .

“We are not attacking you, only trying to get you and others to see the light, when all you see is darkness. “

the problem is we don't agree about who is the light.

Ah, and Matt, if you show our matches to the MK fans, it’s a great idea of course, but I just hope you won’t show them the ones where I was using the keyboard, otherwise their opinions will be skewed.


pierre

The actual latency in a kaillera game constantly fluctuates. It spikes and recedes throughout the game. The ping next to your name in the channel is from when you enter and the ping next to your name in a game is when you first join the game, and once everything starts, everything can change.

I know for the past 5 nights my connection has been hell to play UT2K4 on because of packet loss, I can only assume because Comcast has been having some 'difficulties.' Nobody has any reason to believe that if I say it in game because my ping was still great and even the p/l was registering a small number, but, nonetheless, half my button hits were lost. Its just how the internet is.

I had an activity monitoring program a while ago, I used to use it when I tried to play Kaillera just to see what I was really getting. I'll try and track it down. I remember matches where my ping would spike from 35 to 120 mid round and then fall back again. Usually, at the end of rounds or the end of games it would die down since the button activity had calmed down.

an activity monitoring program?
interesting, but these fluctuations can't stay a sufficiently long time on a far number from the initial value to really influence your game, and that's why I say it's bounded to that initial ping value. Delay increase and decrease while playing of course, but you can't get an unplayable game if your kaillera sreen indicates you have a good ping.

pierre