I have something to say. Yeah, the MK3 fatalities were cool and all, but they overdid the gore. Two skulls, six legs, four arms and 5 rib cages with a fatality done on Kabal? Please. And so what if most of the MKII fatalities were uppercuts? At least it made sense. And about the ninjas taking up half of the MKII roster, there are 3 ninjas and twelve characters. Use your brain.

LKM, I'm not sure you fully got the picture from this thread, but in any event, in MK3 they made fun of Fatalties with what they did.

Sub-Zero
Reptile
Scorpion
Human Smoke
Noob Saibot
Jade
Kitana
Mileena

8 out of 15.

8 out of 17.

its really annoying to see all threads like this to become into discussion which mk game is better. its simple:

1. play for fun and prefer 2 or 3 or any other MK Game
2. play competetive and you have to prefer UMK3, there just no other way

Thats one of my favorites as well.

Whatever... Nearly half.

Jax's Head Squash and Arm Rip are among my favorites (also Kang's Arcade Box and Scorpion's Gang Attack)

Just becasue you do not like something it does not mean it is over rated. Whilst I respect that you might not like MKII everyone has different reasons for liking things and they are certainly just as valid as yours.
For me

1 MK2
2 MKD close behind
3 MK3 and its many spin offs
4 MK4
5 MK
6 MKDA

Why do I like MK2?

1) It is the most atmospheric of all the titles... there was sooo much attention to detail. I think what you are forgetting is that this aspect made the game TOTALLY immersive... MK was a world onto itself... and you really got a sence of that world in this title. Best backgrounds of all the games (most of MK3's were hideous at best with a few exceptions).

2) It also had one of the best most thought out rosters out of all of the games (probably the best , most directional list of any fighting game I have played). The character concepts were so strong and recognisable without the cheese factor that crept into further titles. They all had strong individual storylines. All the characters in MK2 have become the classic, loved charaters of today. After MK2 they seemed to lose this attention to character detail and created obviously rushed and somewhat embarrasing character concepts and storylines (eg Stryker, Jarek, Kai, Hsu Hao, Kobra etc)

3) MK2 was totally groundbreaking... It was one of the first games of its time to introduce numerous secret chatacters... not to meantion all the other secrets.

4) Great fatality list, couples with fun friendships and weird babalities.

5) All characters had distinct and well thought out move list and the game overall plays quite well for the majority of players. The combos, jugglers etc felt much more organic and somehow more satisfying then the dial a combos which came later.

I think the thing you forget is the majority of people dont want to spend their life playing games for money... some do it just for enjoyment. Perhaps you are taking this a little too serious.

It's funny how everything you listed is exactly what I've said is the typical MKII fan, whether it be here, or any other MK site for this particular topic. Just about everything you said can be completely debated with, or preferred somewhere else in MK due to taste and that is what it is a matter of, taste. This brings it back to the point of, MKII's popularity is incredibly shallow.

Besides all of the apparent lovey-dovey emotional attachment involved with watch-playing 2DMK games, the most important thing to remember is how outdated the graphics, storyline, characters, etc are. None of this stuff matters anymore.

What does matter today for these old games, is the gameplay. Gameplay is comparable and measurable on a quantitative level. The only thing interesting left to these games is playing them for money. If you play it at home, and have fun doing it, that's great, but in all seriousness, no one truly cares. This, and anything that has to do with it is so completely trivial. We know everyone plays them, and it's NOT interesting. Why can't anyone understand that? Gameplay can be preferred elsewhere in MK, but not due to taste, due to personal limits that do not speak for more than 1% of fighting game players.

All the threads constantly made in this forum "Favorite this" "Coolest that" are closed immediately. These games are OLD and these threads have been made for over a decade on countless websites. I understand there are newcomers to the games all the time, but I mean, seriously in the year 2006, who can really put up with "Have you memorized all the fatalities for MK1"? The only thing that remains fresh is the gameplay and the fact that UMK3's is still evolving, while the others are not. The main reason why is say MKII is overrated is because a terrible game. There are FAQs and other things all over the web anyone can publish because it's all so limited when it comes to what moves are what, and what codes do what.

I don't know about you, but I would much rather listen to people talk about their experiences playing people in arcades in any of the classic games, than hear about who their favorite characters are. I use to care a decade ago, but not anymore. If you think we take competitive MK seriously, that's too bad, because competition is the only thing you can take seriously when it comes to fighting games. I've even met a few people on the internet in my day who have thought that meeting and playing people in person is a bad thing.

And thanks for the generalized, but personal attacks.

You said
"Just about everything you said can be completely debated with, or preferred somewhere else in MK due to taste and that is what it is a matter of, taste."

Same goes for every point you have said... just becasue you play for money does not make you the guru of Mortal Kombat greatness. Yet time and time again you seem to agressively imply that your opinion is the one that counts. Maybe at the level you play at UMK3 is incredible... but to the vast majority of others it simply is not. I do not understand why you cant just accept this.

"Besides all of the apparent lovey-dovey emotional attachment involved with watch-playing 2DMK games, the most important thing to remember is how outdated the graphics, storyline, characters, etc are. None of this stuff matters anymore."

None of this matters to whom??? You??? Well apparently, to the vast majority of people it DOES matter. Personally, I have just recently started playing all the previous versions of the game... MK2 is still seeing the highest play rate out of all the pre deception games followed by MK4 then UMK3. I do actually prefer the mechanics of MK2 to those of 3... however... that is totally personal prefference... and unlike you... I respect your right to that.

"Gameplay is comparable and measurable on a quantitative level."

No it is once again totally opinion based


"The only thing interesting left to these games is playing them for money. If you play it at home, and have fun doing it, that's great, but in all seriousness, no one truly cares. "

Interesting in whose mind??? Yours ! Once again you are telling us all how we are supposed to feel. I personally dont care at all that you play for money (except for mild amusement)... and I think the majority couldnt eithe In all seriousness... I hate to burst your bubble but not many people truely care that you play for money..


" but I mean, seriously in the year 2006, who can really put up with "Have you memorized all the fatalities for MK1"? "

The thing I dont understand is why do you feel the need to poop on other people's breakfast??? Why do you care so much if others want to know others favorite characters in games you aren't interested in??? You are seriously acting like the fun police... You are not that important that you can veto what other people are interested in. It is easier just to not open these threads you are not interested in... or maybe start a forum where people can pray to the gods of UMK3.


"If you think we take competitive MK seriously, that's too bad, because competition is the only thing you can take seriously when it comes to fighting games. "

I dont care how seriously you take a video game... however... what I do think is questionable is your lack of understanding that other people are just as entitled to thier opinions as you. Personally... I think mortal kombat is just some fun... but it doesnt make my opinion less valid then yours

I don't think you really, fully, understand the context of my post, also, you need look at the thread subject. It becomes tiresome to explain the difference between fact and opinion to one or two people on every single MK website, but to break it down, people who like hot dogs, generally like to eat them cooked, and with the bun. In a hot dog eating contest, you have to eat the bun. The bun was added in recent history to enhance the presentation and enjoyment of hotdogs, much like run was in MK3. Run = bun. It is widely accepted that this is an improvement to the previous version. I MKII had the most replay value under Deception, there would still be tournaments for it, and there isn't. UMK3 is still played to this day. When MKA comes out, people will forget about MKD.

What the hell is MKD?

I'm getting Armageddon for UMK3 on PS2.

"It becomes tiresome to explain the difference between fact and opinion to one or two people on every single MK website"

I think what you call fact... to me and to many others is infact still opinion. An example of a fact is the sentance "Australia is a place on earth" ... you really cannot argue with it much ... an example of opinion (which may feel like fact to some people but it is not) is "George Bush is a bad man" whilst I can sprout many reasons to support this notion... at the end of the day... it is totally dependant on your veiws on life, where you live etc etc. I think what you are forgetting is that you are viewing this game from a different vantagepoint... that does not make what you say fact... it mearly makes it your opinion from where you are looking from.


". Run = bun. It is widely accepted that this is an improvement to the previous version."

I think you are looking at this way to simplisticly. Personally... I found run a bit cheesy, sloppy and a bit gimicky and I know alot of people feel like that too. Did it make UMK3 better for you... sure it did! Thats great... but for me, on top of the fact that I like the less contrived , more organic gameplay in MK2 (I found deception good like this too) ... many others like me think that MK3 (and its add ons) totally lost the imersive element that is JUST as important to the success of the game as the gameplay. If you wanted to play a fighting game with the best game mechanics... I am suprised you are playing MK to be honest... there are a few others out there that have much better mechanics then MK... however, they usually dont have the strong characters, fantastic feel and atmosphere that is intrinsically important to the success of MK. Once again this is not fact... this is just opinion from my vantage point.

"I MKII had the most replay value under Deception, there would still be tournaments for it, and there isn't."

No... that is not correct. UMK3 might just be great for tournaments... but like you say... who cares??? The massive majority of people in this world dont play in tounaments and arent at all interested in them. Why do you seem to think that tournaments are the yardstick for measuring what people should like? If your posts were about UMK3 being better then MK2 for tournament play... perhaps you would have an argument... however... you are arguing that it is a "fact" that UMK3 is a better game full stop... that is not only arrogant it also is not very accurate and is terribly simplistic. For me and many like me MK2 does have good replay value, not only becasue of its imersive elements and attention to detail that were sorely lacking in some of the subsequent releases, but also becasue it couples this with organic, thoroughly enjoyable gameplay..

"I think what you call fact... to me and to many others is infact still opinion."

The problem here is, MK fans generally don't attend tournaments to play MK games. Why do you think at last year's NEC there was no MKD tournament? MK fans are entirely different than fighting game fans. A huge percentage of people who avidly play fighting games try and make it to tournaments. A small building in NJ on one weekend can host a few hundred people in and out for 5 games.

"An example of a fact is the sentance "Australia is a place on earth" ... you really cannot argue with it much ... an example of opinion (which may feel like fact to some people but it is not) is "George Bush is a bad man" whilst I can sprout many reasons to support this notion... at the end of the day... it is totally dependant on your veiws on life, where you live etc etc."

This is my point when it comes to fighting games and the differences between the mechanics. You can mathematically explain why things are better, or more intuitive, pratical, etc. Experts can tell you what is a fact and what isn't. There are people who don't count. Just because remaining MKII fans don't like the added features in MK3 and UMK3, doesn't mean that their MKII is in any way better, or more playable. What proves that something are playable or not is the actual examples of people playing it. UMK3 is not popular with the whole fighting game community, but it has more respect than any other MK game since it has experts who can back it up and explain why. Most classic MK fans play all the games casually, but there is a percentage of them who are competitive. Just imagine if MK games still game out in the arcades, I don't think there would be a whole lot more to discuss about them than that. When MK games came out the internet was weak. The number of current competitive MKII players is incalculably small. There is a reason for that. MKII is NOT a good game, and that is a fact because if it were a fun game, people would still play it. Why do people still play SSF2T? Because it's a good game with replay value. Most MKII fans hang on to it for reasons other than the gameplay. You can enjoy parts of it while suffering through its gameplay, but you aren't playing the BGs, the sounds, the characters, etc. You are moving the characters around in order to play it. MKII is a limited game compared to everything made after it and even some before it, and that is a fact. It doesn't matter what your degree of preference is. 99% of the fighting game community prefers rush down based gameplay. MKII is the complete opposite of that.

"I think what you are forgetting is that you are viewing this game from a different vantagepoint... that does not make what you say fact... it mearly makes it your opinion from where you are looking from."

I can say the backgrounds in MKII are stupid because they look phony. This is an opinion because it's a baseless/pointless comment since you can argue what is phony or not. I can say that MKII's gameplay is weak, and limited and give you reasons why the entire fighting game community would tell you that very same thing. Go to shoryuken.com, you will have 30-40,000 people who will tell you the same things I do, and it's not just MKII, SF2 is in the same boat, except SF2 is way more popular than MKII right now.

"I think you are looking at this way to simplisticly. Personally... I found run a bit cheesy, sloppy and a bit gimicky and I know alot of people feel like that too."

I have explained why run was made that way it was in other threads, if it isn't good enough for you that's too bad, but run was in MK3, UMK3, MKT and MK4, and not in MK1 or MKII. There is a reason for this. Players wanted faster gameplay, and a way to advance on turtling opponents that littered MKII. If they made a dash, like a F-F that would be a direct copy of SF, or other games, but MK has a block button, so a run button, that works 100times better than dash in virtually any 2D fighting game, was pure genius. If you don't know how to utilize it, that is your personal limitation and goes back to my example of people who get cut off from "public opinion" once they stop evolving as a gamer. It's also funny how you throw the words "cheesy sloppy and gimmicky" out there like it's something new to MK. MK is the sloppiest, cheesiest, gimmickiest popular fighting game there is, and always has been. This is nothing new. The run button first off, as it is in MK3-MKT, was not sloppy at all mechanics wise. It cannot work any better than it does.

"Did it make UMK3 better for you... sure it did! Thats great... but for me, on top of the fact that I like the less contrived , more organic gameplay in MK2"

Terrible. It didn't make UMK3 better for just anyone person, it made Mortal Kombat better for the world. Whether you accepted it or not was your problem. It was the next logical step, seeing as that MK1, II, and 3 were all glorified betas leading up to UMK3. Organic? MKII is an undeveloped version of UMK3.

"(I found deception good like this too) ... many others like me think that MK3 (and its add ons) totally lost the imersive element that is JUST as important to the success of the game as the gameplay."

It's interesting though, since this part of the MK player psyche comes out most often in their defense to their favorite games. I don't like Mortal Kombat as a whole. I like what is good, which is why I usually don't like an entire genre of fighting games, I like what are considered good fighting games not because others like them, but because I like them, and they should be liked for their value, and if UMK3 was never made I probably wouldn't even post on any MK forums. I did like MK1, and MKII, but I realized when other fighting game genres moved their gameplay onward, and new games came out that were better than the originals other fighting games, that MKII and MK1 are best left under a glass case in a collector's museum. Again, all the emotional attachment, the feeling, the concept, the atmoshpere, this is all very intimate and when it comes down to it, they are fighting games, and old ones at that. Deception is pound for pound the worst MK game ever made, sure it has amazing graphics sounds and music, but other than that, it's worthless, and will be buried by MKA. When people are still posting threads about the 2D classics constantly and a few MKD threads trickle in once in a while, you'll see what I mean. It's neat the MK brings out so much emotion in people, because other fighting games don't. No one really talks about SF like this, specifically on a board that deals with the games.

"If you wanted to play a fighting game with the best game mechanics... I am suprised you are playing MK to be honest... there are a few others out there that have much better mechanics then MK... however, they usually dont have the strong characters, fantastic feel and atmosphere that is intrinsically important to the success of MK. Once again this is not fact... this is just opinion from my vantage point."

You are still looking at MK as if it were something other than a fighting game. It's tough to talk to someone about fighting games. As you see in my last response, I don't play MK, I play UMK3, and to a lesser extent MKT. I like games such as SFA3, SF3, and meddle in the vs series, but I know the vs series is terrible, even though I find it fun. That's another thing, games can be fun, and not be good. UMK3 is the best game in the series, and this coming from a fighting game player, not an MK fan. I can look at MK objectively, where most people on this site, and others, cannot. Take Konqrr for example, he LOVES MKII and MKD, but he can tell you the exact same reasons I can as to why they are terrible fighting games, and he loves all of MK, but he's also an all around fighting game player. So is DreemerNJ.

"No... that is not correct. UMK3 might just be great for tournaments... but like you say... who cares??? The massive majority of people in this world dont play in tounaments and arent at all interested in them."

It is true that UMK3 is the only tournament worthy MK game in existence, but it doesn't change the fact that MKII is no longer played by anyone except people in the privacy of their own homes.

"Why do you seem to think that tournaments are the yardstick for measuring what people should like?"

Because there is a great big world of fighting game tournaments out there, not just in the US, but everywhere. In Japan, playing fighting games competitively is just as common as kids in America playing little league sports.

"If your posts were about UMK3 being better then MK2 for tournament play... perhaps you would have an argument..."

Honestly, that's always what it's been about. You should go to gamefaqs and search for the "MK is a rip off of MK" threads and see the 1500 posts about that exact topic.

"however... you are arguing that it is a "fact" that UMK3 is a better game full stop..."

It is.

"that is not only arrogant it also is not very accurate and is terribly simplistic."

No it is, and you don't like it.

"For me and many like me MK2 does have good replay value, not only becasue of its imersive elements and attention to detail that were sorely lacking in some of the subsequent releases, but also becasue it couples this with organic, thoroughly enjoyable gameplay.."

The proof is in the pudding. Tournament/arcade play is a representation of the general public. MK games are rarely found because MK is unpopular in the fighting game community. If fighting games fans didn't give up after MKII failed to meet their standards, they might have given MK3, and UMK3 a try. The gameplay is thoroughly UNenjoyable to everyone outside the MK community, and that's a lot of people. UMK3 has the highest replay value of any MK game, past and present. It has survived the test of time. Can you name anything specific about MKII that you prefer in terms of the actual gameplay, and when I say this, I mean, pressing a button or direction and making something happen, not "It makes me feel good". Also don't forget, I just released the biggest MKII combo video ever a couple weeks ago, and put a lot of effort and hours into it, and I don't even like the game anymore.

UMK3 is the best...

it makes me feel happy just thinking about that game.... makes me wan't to say it's name... (ULTIMATE MORTAL KOMBAT 3) mmm makes me wan't to play it right now and get owned by the CPU.




The truth is... and always has been in my head...

1. UMK3 Was the best installment in the series.
2. The story wasn't really deep in this game... we'll considering it's "ULTIMATE" same goes for TEKKEN TAG TOURNAMENT (Adding back the characters) but if you wan't story play Mortal Kombat 2 don't forget you can't be agressive (You have to turn into a turtle, you can't be a wild animal like in UMK3!)
3. Ed Boon's favorite game was UMK3, I read it in his latest interview and maybe that could make you like UMK3?



We'll that's all of it.... you can still play MK2 though, but saying MK2 is better then UMK3 is pushing it...

there is nothing wrong to love mk2, i personaly love mk4 (arcade) and i'm sure not many people even like it, but from competetive point of view umk3 will always be the most balanced and best mk game (from the arcades).

I love to play MK games, all of them. But when I want to compete, to get serious about playing, I will play UMK3.

As I say in my sig..."MKII is a glorified RPG, turn based chip damage". That's what it boils down to. There is no rushdown, only turtling until you get an opening from a foolish opponent who is trying to play rushdown in a turtle game. Quite simply, if you jump or abuse certain special moves, you are toast. The game is slow, repetitive and extremely boring. It does hold quite a bit of nostalgia for me as I grew up with MK and MKII in particular. But once MK3 came out...my MKII days were OVER immediately.

Like MK2KB said, I do love MKD. But it is the most broken piece of garbage ever made. Every single character has at least one infinite combo. Some have several. Online is worse as you can abuse unsafe moves all day and not be punished. The round is over once you get knocked down pretty much as you are forced to guess which way to block and if you guess wrong, you eat another combo and are forced again to guess while getting up.

Due to our efforts, the elite players of MKD, Master Malone gave the MK team at E3 this year, a huge list of things that were wrong in Deception along with a CD with the movies that Danadbab and I made encompassing the problems visually. They took our compiled information and what you see in MKA is the result of this.

We all love MK, it's why we are here. But when it comes to competitive gameplay, there is no MK game that can hold a candle to UMK3. NONE.

UMK3 is the most balanced of them all.
If both players were playing at high level...

- In MK1, can Scorpion beat Sonya? No.
- In MK2, can Cage or Reptile beat Mileena? No.
- In MKDA, can Cyrax beat Scorpion? No.
- In MKD, can Kira beat Dairou? No.

Stop arguing.

Arguing that the nostalgia behind the games is as important as the gameplay is silly too. There's no way to say that MKII's storyline is better than MK3's or anything like that, as a method of comparison, because they are all one storyline. The graphics, sounds, bgs, characters, etc, are all open for interpretation and taste. As many of us have stated here, the gameplay is NOT open for debate unless you're talking about specifics within a certain game. Spanning game to game, you can in fact say which ones are better than others, just like you can define, mathematically, which characters are better than others, within a single game. There are many factors that cancel eachother out, and what you are left with is nearly frame data, gameplay, variety and tactics. All of this has to do with YOU the player, pressing buttons on your controller or stick and nothing to do with breathing in the game.

SFA3 is the most popular of the SFA series, a lot of people consider SFA2 to be the best and most balanced incarnation.

of the SF2 series, SSF2T is the most popular, but a lot of people consider SF2HF to be the most balanced.

Third Strike is the best, and most popular version of the SF3 series.

SF3 is considered the best SF game ever made, Chun Li and Yun dominate, but there are an enormous amount of specialist players.

Of all the Vs Series, MvSF is the most balanced, but it is the least popular due to lack of infinites. It has a very powerful top tier, in Omega Red and Wolverine, but not to the same level as Magneto and Storm in XvSF and MvC2. There is no best vs game, as they are all garbage, but I still play all of them.

In Tekken, many people consider Tekken 4 garbage, and Takken 5 is obviously quite popular because it is still new. Tekken Tag is also still played and accepted as one of the best.

UMK3 is like the SF3 of MK.

"MK fans generally don't attend tournaments to play MK games."

Yes... most MK fans dont attent tournaments and really could not care. This is not just about people who play in tounaments.. it is about the general populous. Whilst yes... amoungst peeps who attend tournements UMK3 might be the be all and end all... fine... I totally understand that... however... amoungst the vast majority it just simply is not... no amount of your made up "facts" really is going to change peoples minds... it just makes you look like an a$$

"You can mathematically explain why things are better, or more intuitive, pratical, etc."

No... you really cant... I can explain why ice cream tastes better then corn and make a damn convincing argument... but at the end of the day... it is an open subject. Your "facts" are laughable... they may help support your opinion, however... nothing about them is factual... everyone plays from a VERY different perspective... its a good idea to remember this.

"There are people who don't count."

Not so much in this case... we are not talking about brain surgery here... we are talking about a game... a game that we all chose to experience in different ways (none better or more valid then the other)... I think everyone is alowed to weigh in thier thoughts on the matter unrestricted.

"What proves that something are playable or not is the actual examples of people playing it."

Yes... MK2 is still fairly popular... whilst there are not tournaments for it... there are hundreds of thousands of people still dragging it out and playing it. The funny thing is... the only Mortal Kombat I ever still see in arcades these days is still MK2... and from the people I know at arcades it is still a relatively profitable title for how old the game is

" UMK3 is not popular with the whole fighting game community, but it has more respect than any other MK game since it has experts who can back it up and explain why."

yes... it is apparently great for tournament play :)

" but there is a percentage of them who are competitive."

albeit a very low percentage in the general populous of players

"There is a reason for that. MKII is NOT a good game, and that is a fact because if it were a fun game, people would still play it. "

People do still play it... whilst it does not get as much play as it did in its hey day (not many things do)... it is certainly played alot today and often seen as the peak of the series.

" Most MKII fans hang on to it for reasons other than the gameplay."

Also... I dont see why you have such a problem with this. A game is MUCH more then just mechanics... as I said, in the past there has been alot of fighters that had very good mechanics, but suffered lower sales due to the game lacking in other areas. If game play was the only important thing... there would be alot more stick figure fighters out there.

"You can enjoy parts of it while suffering through its gameplay, but you aren't playing the BGs, the sounds, the characters, etc.

No... but they contribute massively to the actual enjoyment of the game... you seem to seriously underestamate that. MK2 was totally immersive... unfortunately UMK3 was not. Im not saying UMK3 is bad... its a great game. It just is not mine nor many others favorite. Also I dont find its gameplay "sufferable" at all


"I can say that MKII's gameplay is weak, and limited and give you reasons why the entire fighting game community would tell you that very same thing."

Yes you can say that... that is your opinion... as I have stated.. you are entitled to that... so are all your tounament friends... however I am entitled to my opinion too and not to have it quashed by faux facts (which are just opinions from your perspective). I have no problem saying that from a tournament playing perspective... UMK3 is better... I have limited experience in the area (and no interest) so I trust your opinion in this area... however... for the broader community which you seemingly look down upon... I am sorry but you cant speak for them. People enjoy the games on all different levels... none are higher then the other.

"I like what is good, which is why I usually don't like an entire genre of fighting games, I like what are considered good fighting games not because others like them, but because I like them, and they should be liked for their value"

I, like you, like what I THINK is good... am I a MK freak??? well I liked MK2 UMK3 MKD ... I hated DA and am indifferent to the others. I also love alot of the SF series, Soul Calibur etc etc. You say that they should be liked on thier value... obviously you mean by your values. In actuality... different people respond differently to stimulus and thier likes and dislikes therefore are diverse. What is value?

"You are still looking at MK as if it were something other than a fighting game"

No... I am not... you are looking at this in one dimention which for you works... but for the majority it does not.

"It is true that UMK3 is the only tournament worthy MK game in existence, but it doesn't change the fact that MKII is no longer played by anyone except people in the privacy of their own homes."

Why is that any less worthy then how you choose to play UMK3? I think you may have a case of too much self importance in this case.

"Because there is a great big world of fighting game tournaments out there, not just in the US, but everywhere. "

There is a bigger world that does not... trust me.

""however... you are arguing that it is a "fact" that UMK3 is a better game full stop..."

It is."

No... its not... from your vantage point it is... that is fine... I accept that. The fact that you cant see that this is all opinion based is somewhat disturbing... you seem to have an overinflated opinion of yourself. I am sorry, but you cant dictate to people how they should feel.

""that is not only arrogant it also is not very accurate and is terribly simplistic."

No it is, and you don't like it"

No I just think you are a bit too serious about a GAME and disrespectful to others opinions because of it..

" Tournament/arcade play is a representation of the general public."

LOL... no it is not... it is a bunch of fanatics... it is in no way a representation of how the general populous feels/thinks. Its like saying people who go to "Paul Robbins" seminars or the contestants on "Big Brother" are an accurate representation of an american person.

"Can you name anything specific about MKII that you prefer in terms of the actual gameplay, and when I say this, I mean, pressing a button or direction and making something happen"

Yes I can... and I have... eg the combos were great and not as easy as they were in latter games. But me stating things like this that I prefer is a wasted effort... you seem unable to accept that peoples prefferances are different.

"We all love MK, it's why we are here. But when it comes to competitive gameplay, there is no MK game that can hold a candle to UMK3. NONE."

I agree... UMK3 sounds great for tournaments... that is not my area of expertise...and Im certainly not disputing this... however... the majority of people are not tournament players and those people are certainly alowed to like other titles more for thier own reasons

Your biggest problem here, is accepting that there are facts you cannot dismiss just by saying you don't agree with them. I've met others like you, but not as many who play fighting games because they are games.

Here are a bunch of instances where you are wrong.

You don't think that there are blatant differences in MK games that explain why one is better than another.

- I shouldn't have to explain why that is wrong. They are games based upon mathematics, and there is a community which represents a perspective that measures how good games are.

You think that all the hoopla surrounding a game still matters today in terms of judging that game.

- This concept fades with time.

You think MKII is relatively popular outside of people's homes.

- I haven't seen an MKII machine in years, can or would you say you visit arcades more frequently than I do? I know they are still around, but if I've seen say, 5 different UMK3 machines in the last 5 years, and 0 MKII machines, there is something to be deduced.

You think that the people who play the games casually regardless of content matter.

- They simply fund following releases, which content is determined by people who make the effort to communicate. They have no voice. Game creators know what kind of bells and whistles to put into games, but they don't always know how to make the gameplay good, so they hire experts.

You think there is a "world" of casual gamers out there who represent a collective perspective upon a game.

- This is actually a huge group of isolated individuals, some of which, share similar concepts, ideas, and preferences by coincidence or chance. These people don't determine which games are better than others because they don't care, or know enough about them, only what they like more based on their personal feelings. They are drones. I know plenty of people who tell me they play fighting games, but they don't really *play* them.

The Fighting Game world is different. There are reasons why a lot of them look at things the same way, not based on chance but because there is a psyche behind it. People go to websites to learn about the gameplay, and how to get better at it, it is a form of literature and education, with a concrete background. People come to other message boards to talk about what they like involving everything about the games, and that's fine, but you're not learning anything from it, or ascertaining anything of relevance. Most people who post in favorite character threads probably don't even read anyone else's responses. There is a significant portion of gamers who play fighting games, a huge portion of that plays competitively in some way, particularly anyone who played during the heavy arcade release era. The ones who said they liked a game for anything other than the gameplay, didn't win very often, so these people aren't playing it because it's a fighting game, they see something else, but in reality, it's still just a fighting game.

You said:

"There is more to a game than just the mechanics"

Really? I don't think so.

When you say that a casual gamer's opinions are as valid as a fighting game player's about a fighting game, you look foolish.

"I think a tomato is a delicious vegetable." Well, that's great you think it's delicious, but it's not a vegetable...but people use it like a vegetable and there was even a ruling made to delcare a vegetable just so people would have to pay an import tax on it over a century ago.

This is similar with MKII. MKII is a fighting game, but people talk about it like it's a movie, or some kind of uninteractive form of entertainment. "I think MKII has a great story line, its characters are awesome, the fatalities are so creative, the graphics are realistic, the atmosphere is inexplicable, it's a really great fighting game."

To me, that person didn't describe to me any context in which I would need to establish that they were talking about a fighting game. That could be ANY type of game. That's great that you like all that stuff...but...

MK was designed to be played against other people, this is why they AI is so terrible. Oh wait, I can't say terrible because someone else might think the AI is too difficult...when it in fact is not.

Surprisingly, the most amazing thing you said was that MKII combos were not as easy as in latter games, insinuating that somehow, the difficulty in performing what I assume are damaging combos makes it more challenging for you. Truly remarkable, and inaccurate. This statement alone tells me what kind of person I'm talking to. The fact that you think the combos (juggles) are difficult at all baffles me. Personal limitations skew results, but in this case, you might be confusing sloppy overall game controls for actual complexity, in which, that would support my apparent "opinion" that really is just a bunch of facts and examples.

Hey Mr. Universal Truth (aka Kung Broken)

You ́re so arrogant it ́s not even funny.

I gave all my reasons to like MK2 better than the others and yet you still try to change my opinion and most people ́s opinion here (and probably outside of here).

Who cares about tournaments? If you judge by today ́s standards MK2 is not competitive but WHO FUCKIN CARES?

It ́s not about competition, it ́s about fun. Movie? TV Show? This is ridiculous! I grew up playing MK since the first and I still like to play MK2 once in a while because it ́s FUCKING GREAT GAME! Every reason said here is enough to me, I won ́t say anything but MK2 owns any MK title, including UMK3, because sometimes LESS IS MORE.

Skulls are koming for you NIM.

Bum bum bum!...
Dun dun dun!...
Anyways, you guys, stop fighting! Why do you care if this guy likes mk2 and this guy likes mk3/umk3!?

If you try to change somebody's opinion, that's taking away originality from the world. Let people like what they like.

Deal with it.

I don't think I've ever told anyone to not like MKII, I've only stated that it's a terrible fighting game, and that UMK3 is the best MK game ever made. It's pretty clear that is what I'm talking about.