someone remember "best of the best" for snes / super famicom?? the first game (afaik) where you could change your characters moves. so you were able to use other kicks and punches to make the fighter match your fightingstyle. was really cool to customize it all

Could we think realistically for a minute? How on Earth could Mortal Kombat have a Kreate-A-Kharacter? It would make no sense whatsoever.

NoObSaIbOt777 Wrote: Could we think realistically for a minute? How on Earth could Mortal Kombat have a Kreate-A-Kharacter? It would make no sense whatsoever.

Why not?

Because it would make no sense if you had to choose your own costume, special moves, fatalities, etc. it would just mess everything up.
Although a KAK is a good idea, i just can't see it happening in an MK game.

NoObSaIbOt777 Wrote: Because it would make no sense if you had to choose your own costume, special moves, fatalities, etc. it would just mess everything up. Although a KAK is a good idea, i just can't see it happening in an MK game.

Explain the little kid in konquest then. Is he not a create acharacter?

no, thats shujinko

The difference is that a regular create a character mode would be generic, like in a wrestling game. Like the character is there just because.

In Konquest you are actually living the characters life and you are learning how to fight as you age.

It has a lot more Soul and feels a lot more MKish with the story factor in it.


Also another thing to keep in mind is that a create a character mode would cause bad characters. Too cheap, crappy looking fights too weak.....

I think the best thing to alter would be the costumes, not the moves themselves.

It would be best if that part of the game was left to the developers. Unless it's not totally free, and you can maybe just choose what style you want, choose what projectiles you want and the costume design.

For you to choose what special moves you have, maybe you can just choose the element instead, then choose from a list of moves that use that specific element.

Fire
Ice
Wind
Telekinesis
Speed
Souls
Teleportation
Lightning
energy

For more generic moves like Energy, you can choose the color you want.

some moves that can be combined like Weather related powers you could choose from wind, water, lightning....

You get the idea.

This way, you don't have some weird characters with powers that don't match.

He's comprised of all the other characters!

He is a create a character.

colguile Wrote: He's comprised of all the other characters! He is a create a character.

I agree that's basically a create a character, but a create a character for most people is that you can customize their moves, appearance, name, stats, etc. instead of choosing only three styles.

colguile Wrote: He's comprised of all the other characters! He is a create a character.

Yes it is a create a character, but it's done in such a way that it doesn't really feel like it is what it is.


Basically, the only thing you can do with him is Make his arsenal, so he is like Dural from Virtua fighter basically a character made by combining all the others.

But you can't make Sonya, reptile, Rain, Human smoke.......from him, all you can do is make Shujinko.

It's hard to explain.

I'm not sure if you can edit shujinko's special moves, did they say if you could do that?

Man, this thread amazes me. The ups and downs, the repitition, the new ideas, the new people that come on and flame, the snootiness of some people, the knowledge imparted, the ignorance displayed, the arguing, the agreeing and disagreeing. I swear, this is, without a doubt, one of the most intelligent threads I've ever seen on a board. Honestly guys, I've learned a lot here.

Versatile: You're right, messing up your name on purpose was an asshole thing to do. I thought I was being a bit funny, but it didn't come off as harmless little rib poke. Which was the way I intended. Looking back though, it didn't come off that way. I apologize man, that was wrong of me.

I'll also ignore the fact that you called me stupid about ten times in your post to me, without actually coming out and saying it. I liked MK:DA, I still do. Yes, I have brain activity as well.

As far as my "I've mastered many games" comment, I guess it's just a relative term to me. If I know all the moves in a game, and can do them at any time from memory, I usually say I've mastered it. No, I've never been in a competition, I've never played anyone on this board, and I'll admit that one or two of the things talked about on this thread have gone over my head. But I do know fighting games. Maybe not as well as you or some other people on this board. But it's my passion for this series that brings me to this site, just like you.

I do respect your opinion Versatile, but I tend to get a little angry when I think that you're talking down to people. I liked MK:DA, so when you say that only a moron would like this game (which is basically what you say), I get insulted.

Still, I need to grow some thicker skin here, because I know that you're not attacking me personally. At least not until I was an ass to you. I just feel the need to defend a game that I like, and I believe that I have the sense and intellect not to break into yeh butt I donz thank y0 eeevn playd MKDyEt suh donz bEEE hAtIn!!11!!1! In order to defend MK:DA.

Here is my opinion, you can dislike it, you can disregard it, but no one can disprove it:

-I liked MK:DA because the battles, to me, were fun. I liked the combo system (branch style combos, pop up combos etc). I liked the projectiles. I liked the nonstop action.

-That said, I agree that there is room for improvement. Moves could be more useful. Animation could be cleaned up. I have agreed with many other ideas that have been suggested on this thread.

-I still maintain the fact that MK does not have to incorporate as many aspects from other fighting games as some people think. Rather than falling into the philosophical black hole of "is anything original anymore?" I'd rather simply say what I don't want. I'm not interested in a deep throwing system. I'm just not. Not for MK. A game that's had one throw per character for the duration of the series cannot be considered to have a deep throw stystem. Versatile, or anyone else for that matter. Why specifically does MK:D or MK7 etc NEED a better throw system? Beyond the fact that other 3D fighters do that.

That's the difference between myself and a lot of people on this thread. Core beliefs. I don't believe that a 3D fighter absolutely must have this or must have that. Sure, there are traits shared by the best ones, but I don't automatically jump to the conclusion that something must be put into a game, otherwise it will fail miserably. Sure, enough bad decisions and a game will most likely be inferior, but even then, inferiority is up to the person playing the game.

I'm curious. To everyone: If you could implement one new idea that has never been done in a fighting game. One that would improve a fighting game anywhere from just a little bit to a lot. What would it be?


Lastly, Versatile, I hope you don't think I was rippin on ya. I've read your posts, and you definitely know your shit. I'll try to be a bit more mature here, especially since that's what I hope for and want from other people in this thread.

Oh, one small thing. The kreate a kombatant idea. I thought of that and posted something about it less than a week before the new konquest mode was revealed. It's amazing that back then, my idea was totally shouted down. I thought it'd be cool to have real useful parts and clothing bits etc. You picked your own race (black, white, asian, shokan, etc etc etc) and got a regular karate gi.

You then had to earn anything and everything through konquest mode. Traveling around, playing against fighters and earning parts. Whether it be different types of eyes, ninja garb, sashes, belts, shoes, boots, shoulder pads etc etc. The goal being that by the end you could create a completely unique fighter, or someone from past MK games.

I know, that's a very rough idea, but everyone seemed to think that the mere idea of having kreate a kombatant was awful, and something that sould be saved for wrestling games.

Crazy.

I still like the idea.

baraka407 Wrote: I'm curious. To everyone: If you could implement one new idea that has never been done in a fighting game. One that would improve a fighting game anywhere from just a little bit to a lot. What would it be?

It's almost impossible to come up with something 100% new that is not a variation of something else, or that has never been done before.

Everything in life is based on something else.

I posted that same question like 2 pages back in this thread.

What we can do for the most part is make use of basic concepts and mold them to what you want it to be.

Like Air throws for example in DOA3, SC2, and Tekken5, some characters can grab an opponent out of the air and throw them.

To use this same concept in MK, you could have the special moves incorporated in to the throw.
This would be new and pretty original, but it's still a variation of an older concept.

You can add more to the concept be adding more details or properties to the air throws.

For example An idea I posted earlier.

Sub zero's air throw would be that when the opponent is in the air, he can grab them by the feet, and swing them around half a circle and throw them the opposite direction.

But the new properties would be that when he grabs the opponent's feet, he freezes them and the opponent will not be able to do a tec. roll.

They will have a harder time getting up, which would give Sub-Zero time to get in a couple extra ground attacks.

---------------------------------

Another idea is to have a new way to elongate juggles.

Bounce your opponent off the wall with a soccer ball style kick when they are on the ground.

You would have to be 4-6 feet away from a wall for this to work.

When you kick the opponent, they would fly back, and bounce of the wall, they would then stumble back towards you giving you the chance to get in a another combo.

There is something similar to it in Tekken 4 and VF4 with the wall bounce combos but you have to hit the opponent when they are standing up.

The most original part of this idea is the fact that you would be doing this to a grounded opponent. This has never been done this way as far as I know. But it's still a variation of an already used concept.

I hope that answers your question.

If not, I can give more examples.

Another thing I've never seen in a fighting game is pressure sensitive buttons.

They have pressure sensitive stuff in adventure games, but not in Fighting games.

(Correct me if I'm wrong)


How to use this in MK.

A pressure sensitive attack could be used to create custom combos.

If you press the button hard, you will do a strong attack that will knock the opponent down, if you press the button lightly, you will make the opponent stumble and you could recover faster than normal. This would give you the chance to make a custom combo that could cause a lot more damage.


Like if Sub-Zero did his Dragon Stance combo.

1,2,4 hard tap= knock down.

or he could do.

1,2,4 light tap= opponent stumbles.

You recover faster from the last attack and then you can follow it up with anything you want.



Is this original, I think so yes to fighting games, but not to adventure games.


A variation of this idea would be that instead of pressure sensitive attacks, they could be frame sensitive instead.

The same combo again.

1,2,4 tap time 1 to 3 frames = opponent stumbles

1,2,4 hold for 4 frames or longer = opponent falls down.

A variation of this has already been done= just frame moves, but they haven't been used this way, I don't think.



This is how you can take already used concepts and make them original for MK.

Basically, you take a basic idea and just think of ways to make it original to you. Or how to make this concept better, or how to make it work within your plan for it's use.


It's like when making MK fakes, we all use the same MK sprites, but we all come up with totally different results. All those different results come from the same basic concept.

Ok the stage weapons, death traps, and interactive stages will enhance the experience and add more technic hopefully, but there is a chance that more cheapness will comeout of these new features if they are not implemented correctly... or it could add some depth into the game as you have said... but I really would like a decent fighting system before that other stuff...

Yeah, everything would need to be thoroughly tested to make sure there aren't any major problems.

You can have a good fighting game without a lot of the extra fancy stuff.

But still even if you just have the basics, everything needs to work good.

Some things are just common sense, even with the basics.

Something like the unbreakable combos in MKDA is just a bad idea. There should have been a way to get out of those combos.

And now we have that in MKD, but it's something so obvious and basic that it should have been in MKDA.

I find fighting games a lot more enjoyable when the developers pay close attention to the little details, to make everything work smoothly.

I also love to have a Ton of options. That's why I tend to like 3D fighters better than 2D ones.

I still play my 2D games all the time though.

Bleed Wrote: Another thing I've never seen in a fighting game is pressure sensitive buttons. They have pressure sensitive stuff in adventure games, but not in Fighting games. (Correct me if I'm wrong)

The original Street Fighter (1987) came out with pressure sensitive buttons. The harder you pressed, the stronger the attack. It was changed to the 6-button layout because, during bonus games, players would get on top of the machine and jump down and kick the button as hard as possible, since the harder you hit it the more you'd score. Pretty much would damage the living hell out of the machine, which is why Campcom scrapped it.

Wanderer: I totally agree with your core buttons and combinations of those and everything else on the topic. I too dislike the Attack 1, Attack 2, Attack 3, and Attack 4. This really needs to be addressed as a whole and really needs to be applied to every stance, but I fear that MK cannot keep it's stance combat if it wants to do this. Actually I would prefer it wouldn't keep its stance combat and allow a hybrid of moves from all stances to be available at all times, otherwise to actually flesh out all the movelists for individual stances to the point that they're like individual characters is only a dream we can hope for :P but realistically cannot come to expect even though that is what Midway was aiming for that before in MKDA I assume. Anyhow, I really liked your ideas on the mechanics and don't feel that your ideas are even not read and taken into deep consideration because they are.

Bleed: I think pressure sensitive stuff wouldn't be too great. Charging and holding works, but pressure stuff in general just brings up a lot of problems. Especially when you look at it from the perspective of overseas play. While MK is definately not an arcade game anymore, I'll just pull the arcade example. Over in the US, we have a tendency to like joysticks that return to the center faster and I think everyone is in favor of convex buttons over concave ones now. Most arcades are opting out for Perfect 360's (which are a dream to do motions like F, DF, D, DF, F, UF + S in Guilty Gear for my Baiken) which optically reads and is a perfect circle. However even then some people still use competitions which reads with a square touching four switches at the bottom because 3d fighter players in generally like the clicking and knowing that they've hit X direction. However in Japan, they use EXTREMELY loose sticks and their concave buttons, unlike ours, is HIGHLY sensitive. If you've ever used one, you know what I'm talking about, that shit feels like it's almost broken. Anyways, in an environment such as this one, adding pressure sensitive stuff would only make it a mess to play for everyone I think. Especially when you consider how different Xbox and playstation controllers, just puts more strain on a player. (and for the few that uses sticks for MK nowadays) Airthrowing would be good shit provided they do decent damage. This would allow new players who can't deal with manual juggles to be able to compete rather than giving them extended strings to compete with.

As for Create a Character, I really dislike the entire idea of being able to use them against players. The biggest problem with the current MK select screen is that it doesn't show what the character stances and capabilities are when 2 people are in. For example, when you face Shujinko in another person's game, you're not really fighting with skill or understanding of the game and character capabilities, but with randomness. A previous tournament topic was created by Versatile awhile back to about whether to use created characters or not.

Here is the case: Without being able to see all of their special moves and stances listed. You are fighting your opponent and he stays completely in his first stance which is say Judo or something. The opponent constantly uses special throws and mixups that you are familiar with. However near the end of the round, they pull out some random special move that you couldn't expect, they pull out Reptile's MKDA ground roll and win the match. Next round they are still using Judo and you have no idea what their other two stances are. Since you know that their current stance has really bad low capabilities and centers around mid play, you intentionally focus on blocking mid and eating a few lows (since MK doesn't have frame advantage), and you're about to win (you have 15% of your life left, your opponent has 2%), you know that your opponent cannot hope to kill you in his stance unless hi does a mid or high option to get that last 15%. INSTEAD your opponent now switches to his second stance TKD and does a loop from the low repeating kicks to the weapon CS for 15%.

Did you lose because you were not good? Nope. Did you lose because you did not understand the capabilities and options the player currently had? Nope. Did you lose to randomness and the fact that HE knew all the options of your character, but you didn't know any of his besides the one he wanted to show? Yes entirely.

You can get out of the combos in da if you understand all,when the person presses L1 too change the fighting style during the combo hit him an that's how you break the combos but deception really need a fast fighting engine that's all I need.

The thing with DA is that there are no move properties and their combos are canned with no real timing needed. Here is what you need to play DA:

- Find your best low.
- Find your strongest combo and spam and can that stuff with mixing low attack in for good measure.
- Backdash Cancel.
- Universal Tracking so that sidestepping is worthless and your pokes become unavoidable.

Without move properties, there isn't a reason to use 80% of the movelist as I said before. Since you get no frame advantage or disadvantage, the only difference in pokes is a damage/speed/delay ratio which in turns, yields to other moves being entirely dominant over others. Since you can make all moves track, sidestepping moves and tracking moves become worthless as well.

Scorpion15, read my little spiel on page 12 of this thread: http://www.mortalkombatonline.com/content/forum/showmessage.cds?name=mk6&message;=85840&page;=12

Not sure if anyone wants to continue talking about Create a Character, but I wanted to talk about counters/parries/reversals as a whole.

How effective do you guys think it should be?

In DoA and Soul Calibur, their systems make them very effective because they allow you to break out of stun animations if you do them, but you get punished harder generally if you mess up. In DoA, it's generally damage, but for some characters/moves you gain frame advantage. In Soul Calibur its entirely frame advantage, which is why I think people don't try it as much as DoA. It's also extremely effective in DoA since checklists are chock full of chains (which is why people think it's for mashers), even though top level DoA is all juggles (they look pretty cool if you've ever seen Europeans play em, even though Bass is so broke with floating [circular punch, circular kick.. not sure what the buttons are, but they let Bass keep guys up in Tag combos hella long]) since ground chains are easily countered.

In Tekken it has moderate use although certain characters like Jin can whore up his parry easily since he can easily spam it and get decent results as well as not have a big risk. Both frame advantage and damage are rewards for it.

In Virtua Fighter, for many characters, it's not used at all. For some, Jacky and Vanessa you have this neutral punch catch. You have that for Lei Fei when he is in the stance where only one leg is on the ground as well. For Aoi, who is probably the biggest one of all, she gets the Ying Yang stance where she can catch/slide any high or mid almost. But actual parrys/counters done on reaction is used very few, mainly on Aoi since her elbow/shoulder/punches/kick for say mid attack is the same command.

In MKDA, it's entirely a stop animation and gives a guaranteed combo. Generally characters that have reversals want to do a full-style branch.

Baraka, even if you don't want an expanded system(a LOGICAL throw system, defensive properties, move variety, and other basic things) you cannot deny the simple fact that Midway should atleast have the decency to fix the things in it's buggy ass system. Even if Ed Boon and friends decided not to add the eons of intellectual things found in this topic, there is no excuse for simple infinites,back dash cancels, universal tracking, unescapeable combos, horrible hit detections, useless moves and useless combos. These things, whether you would like to admit or not, are bad. 90% of them were not even meant to be in the game. Ed had no intention of putting in the universal track or the infinites or the back dash cancel.

The funny thing is, if/when you realize that these glitches must be taken out, you will look at the rest of the system and realize that without these glitches MKDA is nothing but a side step and punish game. Do something safe, wait for them to retaliate, sidestep and punish. So in reality, the glitches in MKDA were both a gift and a curse, for with them, MKDA had some sort of depth, but without them MKDA has absolutely nothing. So if you agree with us and realize MKD needs to lack glitches, you will also have to realize that without them MKD will be nothing, which is why you NEED things like a throw game,frame advantage,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc,etc! Read through this post a couple of times..please! It's very simple to understand.

It saddens me to have to agree with most of you. I was once in the camp of "MK is a different style game, so appreciate it". After reading all of this, I did some gameplay comparisons again, removing what biases I could. I must admit that yes, MK in 3d is SORELY lacking in some areas of gameplay.
Which really, really saddens me. I love MK, and love the universe it is in. I DO really love the detail and extras being put into MKD...to me that all seems incredible. But after watching the videos, I can see that the actual fighting engine is hardly being touched.
After playing SC2, Tekken, etc, it seems the fighting in MKDA looks rather stiff and, at times, unimaginative when it comes to moves. Which saddens me, bc of my love for MK.
Here is what I would change:

Speed. For the love of all things decent, please, PLEASE, speed it up MORE. These guys look like they are on ridilin or something.

More use for the moves given. Lots of moves per character? Great. Now give me a reason to USE them.

Better throws and air throws. Please..no more sub zero surfing...please... something more along the lines of SC2 and tekkens throws.

Forward flips. Ok, this is just aesthetics maybe, but the way they jump forwards in MKDA and MKD just looks...well...dumb and very VERY uncoordinated for fantasy martial arts.

More air fighting. I would love to see the air game return to MK.

Combo breakers. Duh.

I am VERY pleased with all of the extras that are being put into MKD (finally, extras you can PLAY instead of just LOOK at). On the surface, to me, it looked like THE MK game to end ALL MK games..the perfect MK game I have been waiting for. If, however, the fighting dynamic is unchanged (which it looks like it is going to be, sadly) then those who want fighting advancements may be in for a slight dissapointment yet again.

The time for showing favoritism is over. I was guilty of it myself. If we want a better MK game, if we want it to be king of all fighters, then we HAVE to point out the weak spots and let Midway know SOMEHOW. No more favoritism.

To me, if they added all of the above suggestions to MKD, I would be in MK bliss. We will see what happens come fall. Either way, I am going to buy it because it has Sindel in it heh heh.

Skaven13 Wrote: It saddens me to have to agree with most of you. I was once in the camp of "MK is a different style game, so appreciate it". After reading all of this, I did some gameplay comparisons again, removing what biases I could. I must admit that yes, MK in 3d is SORELY lacking in some areas of gameplay. Which really, really saddens me. I love MK, and love the universe it is in. I DO really love the detail and extras being put into MKD...to me that all seems incredible. But after watching the videos, I can see that the actual fighting engine is hardly being touched. After playing SC2, Tekken, etc, it seems the fighting in MKDA looks rather stiff and, at times, unimaginative when it comes to moves. Which saddens me, bc of my love for MK. Here is what I would change: Speed. For the love of all things decent, please, PLEASE, speed it up MORE. These guys look like they are on ridilin or something. More use for the moves given. Lots of moves per character? Great. Now give me a reason to USE them. Better throws and air throws. Please..no more sub zero surfing...please... something more along the lines of SC2 and tekkens throws. Forward flips. Ok, this is just aesthetics maybe, but the way they jump forwards in MKDA and MKD just looks...well...dumb and very VERY uncoordinated for fantasy martial arts. More air fighting. I would love to see the air game return to MK. Combo breakers. Duh. I am VERY pleased with all of the extras that are being put into MKD (finally, extras you can PLAY instead of just LOOK at). On the surface, to me, it looked like THE MK game to end ALL MK games..the perfect MK game I have been waiting for. If, however, the fighting dynamic is unchanged (which it looks like it is going to be, sadly) then those who want fighting advancements may be in for a slight dissapointment yet again. The time for showing favoritism is over. I was guilty of it myself. If we want a better MK game, if we want it to be king of all fighters, then we HAVE to point out the weak spots and let Midway know SOMEHOW. No more favoritism. To me, if they added all of the above suggestions to MKD, I would be in MK bliss. We will see what happens come fall. Either way, I am going to buy it because it has Sindel in it heh heh.

Sucks doesnt it? The initial blow..realizing that MK as a game is bad. I've been through it too. The only hope now is that if Ed Boon can go through it too. haha..lol at Sindel comment.

The whole idea of favouritism and buying MK because it's MK no matter what is in the game will give Boon + Co the impression that all fans like what they are seeing, so more effort goes into presentation, graphics and fluff.

I still hate the idea of the extra modes with the exception of Konquest, they are MK themed rip-offs of Super puzzle fighter and chess.

I like the idea of konquest because it allows you to pick the most useful movelists and use them for one character, instead of having to wish your favourite character had a style that someone else uses.