Ok, first off the "casual gamer" gig and your first post I'll address as I'm sure you know by now the world is full of casual gamers (most likely more then hardcore gamers) personally, I'm a bit of both depending on the franchise and game. But most people are usually one or the other.

Obviously you're the hardcore player, which is fine but just trying to point out to you that Tekken being one of the more advanced 3D fighting games being it'll take much longer to adjust to the casual player or most player as oppose to SF, MK, DOA to name a few others. For this reason among the others I listed, are why you'll find the players not too fond of Tekken.

I'm not saying it's a shitty series or horrible in gameplay, that would be false and ignorant but notice I didn't say that. I just say that Tekken has always been a 3D fighter, always had that unique style that's hardly been changed until of late with Tekken 6(added some newer things you gave me that I checked out) so in that aspect, the casual gamer may see it and say ohh ok Tekken 4, drastically different then Tekken 3 or Tekken 5? Not to much, still good gameplay, same characters, ok storyline and no online...

I'm just saying Dave, these are reasons why non-tekken fans or casual gamers won't be interested as much. Or it can just not be their cup of tea. Like me, I've tried them, played them. I just can't get into Tekken. I've always been an MK and SF guy honestly. Call me a 2D oldschool guy if you will lol.

MKA compared to other fighters you see that's where the personal preference and opinion come into play, obviously from a "3D fightin game" perspective MK is implementing key elements recently and not 7 years ago like they should have in MK:DA. But you must realize, considering they're newer to the 3D world and that they took a 5 year drought after MK4, MK:DA was a damn good game. It sold well, regained the fanbase and newer fans and I'm sure you'd at least agree that it did much better then SF's 3D attempt or GG games. EX just failed horribly, worse then MK4 and MKD did in gameplay department just to give you an idea(not sure if you're aware of that game or not thats' why I'm saying that)

But I do like the fact that Midway tried to improve it with implementing such elements, if MKD had the parries and wake up it would have turned out better....but we all know how that turned out.

On the online element, you're right lag sucks sometimes if not all the time especially in fighters. And I agree with you in the sense of it sucking to feel lag messing up your game, juggles, combos, safeness, recovery etc

However, despite which fighting game you're a fan of Dave, would you rather play your friends or the machine all the time or actually play other potentically good players much like yourself in a Tekken game?

I think a lot of people feel that way, including me but in the end online expands and offers more competition, ability to play your friends as well so overall we sacrifice the "lag risk" in exchange for competition.



I understand your view clearly on the storyline, characters etc being the basic, cool fundamentals etc appealing to the casual gamer and I remember you saying that you don't care about a character, storyline etc.

That's fine, it's just a bit rare from what I've seen. Perhaps Tekken fans in majority feel that way, but just saying in other fighters MK, SF, DOA etc most fans even the hardcore gamers get into the storyline, characters as much as the gameplay. But that's fine man, nobody's forcing you to love the storyline. It's one thing that was never big in Tekken anyway honestly.

I wouldn't say it's a laughing stock...like I said, if that were true Midway would be totally bankrupt, making no more MK's period and like I said before MK:SM brought in lots of money and was factually a great MK game. They've survived their financial problems thus far and are still kicking.

In fact most companies struggle you know, Capcom got sued over Dead Rising, EA has had problems....licenses, sued etc, Konami, Atari, Namco, Acclaim etc. Not just Midway....this is just another example of Midway haters ignorance, not saying you just a general fact I've noticed on this site the past few years....

Most of the time, they all survive it unless something drastic happens like look at Acclaim...they're dead now and look what Rare did to KI...dead. Midway and MK, NOT dead...

One other thing I want you to know, did you know that Namco is taking cues from Midway now? SC4 will have "fatalities/finishers" of their own to try to revamp that series, SC3 wasn't good and took lots of heat not sure if you know that or not but putting in Star Wars characters, finishing moves and online play finally. Can't say Namco isn't struggling a little bit or trying to make up for SC3's mistakes...

That's what I mean by "altering the style" Tekken will never have a finishing move, cool character, good storyline or good side modes......now that I think about it, it might be because of the Tekken bowling attempt as to why they just stick to the fighting game alone.

Everyone has their own preference, no fighting game however is perfect.

Great post m2dave. Nice to read something like this. MK is trailing behind other fighters. I've always heard that MK players get laughed at but I wanted to find out for myself. So I picked up Virtua Fighter 5 to see what a "great" fighter is like and I was very impressed. The game engine is amazing. Here are a few things I noticed:

They understand Highs, mids, lows, and there importance. EVERY character has a ton of mids (can you say, Kai?). They also stress the importance of frames!
In practice mode, when you do a combo it tells you what each hit does (hits high, mid, low) so you can actually know what moves are worth doing.

They have a ton of complex combos that involve lows and mids in the middle of them. Like, high, low, high high mid. As long as one of them hits, the rest of the combo hits as well. So if you block the high but hit the low, the high high mid wil hit.

They also have throw escapes, which make free throws basically non-existent, and a better counter system. Instead of a bullshit parry, the counter automatically does a move. Its called a Reversal in VF5. So if I parry and go to hit in mk, it can be blocked (connection based). If I counter in VF5, it will grab your hand and automatically bitch slap you. Plus there are reversals for highs, lows, and mids. Not just a random "throw out a parry and maybe it will hit" kinda thing.

Safeness actually has a name in VF5. Its called advantage/disadvantage. So if you block an entire combo, it takes a sec for the opponent to regain stance (disadvantage) giving you a chance to counter (advantage). Safe moves and moves that use less frames are encouraged. They can still be punished though with the reversals.

They also have a better wake up system. If you lay there and they get near you, you can hit them low and mid (like MK). BUT if your opponent is just laying there waiting to hit you, you can jump on them to punish a wake up attempt. You can roll out of the wake up to if you see you're going to get punished.

Also they have Quick Recovery which is the same as MK auto recovery. The only difference is that its in the friggin instructional manual. I've only had it for a little while so I dont know if they have infinites, free grabs, etc. but I will probably find out with time. I dont see how there could be with reversals, throw escapes, etc.

They dont have kak but they do have a customization mode. You can take any character and change there hair, top, bottom, shoes, etc. So you can have 4 different costumes per character. Its like MK where you earn money and can then spend it on stuff to add or change to the character. There moveset doesnt change though. Its a beautiful thing.

There is a lot more I didnt talk about as well. I'm sure m2dave knows. I hope the next MK provides a bit more depth.

Don't get me wrong, I love MK. I love the unique characters and gritty feel. I NEED guys like Scorpion to punish fools. MK blows everyone else out of the water when it come to originality of characters (and there specials). I just want an above average game engine/mechanics.

MK:DA had reversals too before MKA had the parries(which worked better), the problem was with the reversals were they were done in a rushed fashion and only certain characters had them, plus you couldn't reverse weapon styles.

The parries worked good in MKA as far as "countering" the problem was the recovery time on a missed parry(leaves ya wide open for a second or so) all they have to do is tighten that up, smooth out the wake up and add a throw escape and MK8 will be fine.

I agree with you completely, but not all MK games are bad at high level play UMK3 being the prime example of this, its the only MK game that 100% balanced (while some others would be REALLY close to 100%, especially MKDA, MKA and most of the 2D ones)

Its even one of the more balanced fighting games in general, even if the gameplay does not live up to deep fighting games like Virtua Fighter, comparing it to games like MKA and MKD, it would destroy them at a competitive level.

That's true, also MK2 even as well has a pretty good fanbase of high level players.

Personally, I feel any fighting game can be played seriously....in the MK series as well except MKD...I'll still believe to this day and always will that Bo, Dai and N/S own the whole game....these characters just rape everyone else.

MKA and MK:DA at least there's characters to counter with overall.

So yeah I agree with ya there. Also, I know MK:SM isn't a fighting game but that mechanic is awesome and very balanced too. The fighting mode is pretty good in that game.

MKSM IS a fighting game, just more free roaming.

Ok, first off the "casual gamer" gig and your first post I'll address as I'm sure you know by now the world is full of casual gamers (most likely more then hardcore gamers) personally, I'm a bit of both depending on the franchise and game. But most people are usually one or the other.

True. Most are casual gamers. I agree.

Obviously you're the hardcore player, which is fine but just trying to point out to you that Tekken being one of the more advanced 3D fighting games being it'll take much longer to adjust to the casual player or most player as oppose to SF, MK, DOA to name a few others. For this reason among the others I listed, are why you'll find the players not too fond of Tekken.

Possibly. Tekken games sell well. They also do well in arcades. Casual gamers may enjoy Tekken's story line, character designs, and extra modes. I, myself, do not care about any of these things. I play fighting games for the fighting.

I'm not saying it's a shitty series or horrible in gameplay, that would be false and ignorant but notice I didn't say that. I just say that Tekken has always been a 3D fighter, always had that unique style that's hardly been changed until of late with Tekken 6(added some newer things you gave me that I checked out) so in that aspect, the casual gamer may see it and say ohh ok Tekken 4, drastically different then Tekken 3 or Tekken 5? Not to much, still good gameplay, same characters, ok storyline and no online...

I do not care what casual gamers think. It is Namco's job to add, what are in my opinion, "useless features that have nothing to do with the fighting". Though some characters DO play the same every Tekken (just like Dairou's game in MK:D is almost the same as it is now in MK:A - keep away), each Tekken's engine is very different. Compare Tekken 4 and Tekken Tag. A casual gamer may not recognize the differences but that does not mean that there are none.

As for Tekken 6, I enjoy trashing that game on Tekken forums. I just love doing it. I refuse to let those morons at Namco fuck up the series to dumb down the gameplay in order to appeal to scrubs. I am boycotting Tekken 6 if the game remains the way it is now in arcades. You can laugh but Tekken's gameplay needs to remain deep and technical.

I'm just saying Dave, these are reasons why non-tekken fans or casual gamers won't be interested as much. Or it can just not be their cup of tea. Like me, I've tried them, played them. I just can't get into Tekken. I've always been an MK and SF guy honestly. Call me a 2D oldschool guy if you will lol.

Play whatever you want. That is entirely up to you. It is not up to me to tell you what to enjoy. However, do not make false and inaccurate statements about other fighting games. Let it go.

MKA compared to other fighters you see that's where the personal preference and opinion come into play, obviously from a "3D fightin game" perspective MK is implementing key elements recently and not 7 years ago like they should have in MK:DA. But you must realize, considering they're newer to the 3D world and that they took a 5 year drought after MK4, MK:DA was a damn good game. It sold well, regained the fanbase and newer fans and I'm sure you'd at least agree that it did much better then SF's 3D attempt or GG games. EX just failed horribly, worse then MK4 and MKD did in gameplay department just to give you an idea(not sure if you're aware of that game or not thats' why I'm saying that)

We can agree on that. But MK:DA is no classic. UMK:3 is a classic. It is still played today. Why? Because the damn game is tested well and can be enjoyed at a high level play. All the 3D MK fighting games are trash to me.

However, despite which fighting game you're a fan of Dave, would you rather play your friends or the machine all the time or actually play other potentically good players much like yourself in a Tekken game?

If I cannot escape throws, do my juggles, punish moves, low parry low attacks, etc. What is the point, man? I'd rather not play at all. Check had seen online's weaknesses way before anyone else did. He rarely plays online because he knew all along that it was crap. You might as well just play off-line and test what you need to test so you know how the game is REALLY played. Just ask Check.

I wouldn't say it's a laughing stock...like I said, if that were true Midway would be totally bankrupt, making no more MK's period and like I said before MK:SM brought in lots of money and was factually a great MK game. They've survived their financial problems thus far and are still kicking.

MK depends on casual gamers now, and NOT the UMK:3 crowd that has made MK the successful game that it is today. Boon turned his back on competitive MK gamers a long time ago which is why I trash his games now.

Everyone has their own preference, no fighting game however is perfect.

True. However, there are better games. You can like MK. So do I. But games like Tekken and Virtua fighter are better competitively than MK is now. They have better engines. Better options. That is a fact.

I don't know much about high or primitive level of play but you guys have actually made this argument a pretty good high level read level for folks like myself without resulting to cheap shots. Way to go dudes!


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BTW, I love MK over any other fight games because MK is just more fun overall. I like Soul Caliber too but it ain't half as fun as MK. DOA4 is another game that's cool, but again I still prefer MK.

Trax

Why must y'all type such long posts?

I don't mind long posts so long as they're not off tangent or muddled with crap.

From a 3D point of view, I agree with that last statement but there are MK's that are also played competitively MK2, MK3, UMK3, MK4 and MK:DA(more then MKD and MKA) that's also a fact. Just want to point that out, the main ones however are UMK3, MK2 and MK4(yes, it's one of the worst but does have a little competitive crowd) or had anyway lol and MK:DA is overall out of the 3D games because of the least amount of glitches, infinites as oppose to MKD and MKA obviously, plus it's more balanced out of the 3D MK's.

MK, SF and DOA have always appealed to the casual or hardcore crowd if you ask me. Or, to be fair "certain games" of those series have made games for the more advanced, high level player if not every game. Currently, DOA4 is the only game played CGI(MLG) professionally played fighting game right now in the USA. This is also a fact, so far SF, MK, Tekken, SC, KI nothing are eligable...for now it's only DOA4.

Ok, on the online factor I guess that's just your preference NOT to play due to lag potentically and at times messing up combos, safeness, recovery, frame rates etc. I can understand that, but I'd still rather have the "comp available at will" because not sure about you dude, but I'm not going to travel all around the country just to play other good players. To me that's not only a waste of time but simply not doable to most gamers(casual or hardcore) unless you have lots of money and literally no life lol. But in closing, that's one thing we'll have to agree to disagree with I suppose. Some people like online play, others not so much.

MK:DA IMO will be a classic 10 years from now because it was the game that factually saved the MK series after the hugely disappointing MK4. This nobody can deny even though I kind of liked MK4 a little bit, it didn't do that well compared to even the recent MKs as well as the 2D MK's before MK4.

That's fine to enjoy whatever fighting games we like, I only ask likewise with the MK series. I'll admit although I follow all fighters good enough to like or discuss, MK I follow the most however. This I'm sure everyone knows by now.

For Tekken 6, ok well since you know Tekken like I know MK I'll take your word for it but I will admit some of the changes sound interesting to me because Tekken is changing a little bit in the gameplay department, I'm curious I'll admit but am no scrub. Just a casual player here and there with the Tekken series. Just want to establish that.

I won't laugh, everyone has the right to their own opinion including on gameplay just as much as someones bio, storyline etc. Do you get flamed for trashing on it on that site? That's the tekken site correct? I see your point though, that's why I'm always saying the gameplay needs to be addressed FIRST on the MK8 forums on here as oppose to the other fans that care more about "storyline, bio or someones costume" to me that's trivial compared to gameplay IMO, but worry about that shit as an afterthought. I like MK because of "everything" within in, most fans of this series I've noticed there's like different kinds of MK fans. The "fatality" obsessed ones...storyline fans, gameplay fans, character fans, extra modes etc, etc

Surely you see my point lol. I'm guessing Tekken is similar but since there's not blood, fatalities etc it's other things I guess like characters, gameplay whether or not T6 is as good as past ones etc. You'd know more then I would but you know what I'm saying.

Ok, later


@Roge, actually dude MK:SM is just a side MK adventure game. The fighting mode is a bonus, it's not "an actual fighting game" just want to establish that.

I'm not bashing the fighting mode, just pointing out that that MK game isn't "a fighting MK game" it's a mini game vs mode within MK:SM that's all.

Goddamn, I can't believe I just read all of that....

O.k I got questions for you (non of them involve your lovely typing skills either)

When you give all of these little "facts" do you actually clarify it before you go on and say that "Its a fact"? I mean, you say everything you say is indeed a fact and I need to know if you're just getting it fan wise, or real poles or something? Only asking because the thing you said about DOA4 seemed a little strange to me.

Devil, are you asking for proof of facts around here? lol

Everyone's got their own fact... He's one... I'm a Martian... FACT!

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You guys seriously throw the word 'fact' around a little bit too much though. Before you can truly claim something is a fact, you have to back it up with some reference, otherwise it becomes a self-opinion based fact.


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Yes, when it comes to MK games that sold well, played well and which ones are more competitive yes....

speaking as how I've played those particular MK's on a competitive level....

Perhaps it's a little strange because you're not aware of it, that doesn't mean it's not true....If you're referring to DOA4 I can link you to youtube vids, with that friend I mentioned knowing personally named "Swoozie" on youtube his name is swoozie06, he's a pro player and like I said the only current fighting game played professionally GCI/MLG that's covered by direct tv.

People can think whatever they wish, look it up man it's a fact. Which is why I said they need more fighting games in general, the best from each franchise would be cool.

Hahaha you didn't know? One of MKF's favorite sayings are "IMO it is fact" without any substance behind the matter.

Hey looky, it's Groy with once again nothing good to say. Pity : (

And if you actually READ something for once, I never said "IMO that's fact" but hey believe what you wish. The mind works in interesting ways.

I actually have vids, sites to back my shit up thanks anyway. Would you like to see?

Fellas, let's not turn this into some crazy argument again... But I think it's important to differentiate between 'facts' and 'opinions'. I think most of the stuff all of you have stated are mostly opinions rather than facts. Even saying one game is better than the other is not a fact, it is just an opinion. I don't believe VF is definitely better than MKA for example (overall), but that's my opinion not a fact. Fact is scientific and constant, opinion is relative and varies!

Trax

ok

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Even if i were to buy a next-gen console, i wouldn't get MK vs DCU.

So you dont own a next gen AND you wont buy the next MK. How did you end up here again?

Shit! What's with this whole Tekken discussion? Ok we all know Tekken's fight engine is superior to MK's. Ok? Fine. Let's move on.

As for MK vs. DC. I highly doubt I'll get it. I'll watch for someone to break it down piece by piece like Check did to MKA then I'll see what it's really about.

Oh and Dave:

my Lili > your Devil Jin

*NAKM*

see mkf u should never say something is dead, cause one day it just might become resurrected. DEATH DOOM AND DESTRUCTION

call it a rumor, remember what came to be about the last rumor.

Nice sig Red. Did you make that yourself?

yes i just got photoshop finally, its the front page of my site for the new game, converted to a sig

Nice, it's actually original unlike most MKDC sigs.