Versatile, you are a complete fuckin' tool. Nobody OWES you an explanation why they liked MKDA. Have you ever heard of an OPINION? It sure as hell doesn't look like it. You seem to think that if YOU'RE right, then everybody else is automatically wrong, wrong, wrong. Which simply isn't the case. The major majority of people (unfortunately for you) liked MKDA, and thusly will like MKD. Sorry, THAT'S the fact. So you don't like the MKDA fighting engine. Fine, we fucking get it. But stop being a fucking asshole, trying to make people "admit" they didn't like MKDA. It's simply NOT true. That's how you seem to win your little whiney tirades. You beat something so wrong in so much that nobody gives a fuck anymore.

MKDemon Wrote: Versatile, you are a complete fuckin' tool. Nobody OWES you an explanation why they liked MKDA. Have you ever heard of an OPINION? It sure as hell doesn't look like it. You seem to think that if YOU'RE right, then everybody else is automatically wrong, wrong, wrong. Which simply isn't the case. The major majority of people (unfortunately for you) liked MKDA, and thusly will like MKD. Sorry, THAT'S the fact. So you don't like the MKDA fighting engine. Fine, we fucking get it. But stop being a fucking asshole, trying to make people "admit" they didn't like MKDA. It's simply NOT true. That's how you seem to win your little whiney tirades. You beat something so wrong in so much that nobody gives a fuck anymore.

Nope, you can't give a reason why you liked MKDA because there is no reason to like it. I am not asking you to admit anything..I am asking you why you liked MKDA, that is all. None of what I say is really opinion, maybe a bit of it, but a lot of it is fact. There really isn't any need for insults to be honest. I would just like to see what you have to say. So tell me MKDemon..why did you like MKDA? You don't owe me an explanation, yes, but if you don't give me one then I'll believe what I believe right now, that you like MKDA because of it's fluff and not because of it's substance, like the creator of that topic stated oh so well.

"Wah wah wah. I'm so sick of people's negative opinion. Normally, I'm all for respecting someone elses opinion even if you don't like it, but this just doesn't make sense anymore."

You hypocrite. You respect people opinions but yet you're calling me a fucking tool and such for stating mine, which is heavily drenched with facts? It doesn't make sense? It should make sense, because if MKD fixed the problems that plauged MKDA then I wouldn't be "wah wah wah"ing right now.

OMG so much ignorance.

1) we're not arrogant. just speaking facts. we used to be like you. but we sucked up that we were wrong and started learning what the right way was. you can do the same or you can continue being ignorant.

2) mkda offered NOTHING other fighting games didn't. gore? who gives a shit? i'm seeing enough of that in our daily news. and it's REAL. it doesn't help the fighting game any either so how does it make it a good fighter? so tell us why we should be excited for mk deception as a fighting game when problems from mkda exist in mkd? i realize there's time to fix them. but why are they in there AGAIN to begin with? did they just copy and paste mkda to mkd? that's our main worry. and no, depth isn't just vf4 with 60 billion moves. depth is balance. not just balance between characters. but balance in the moves, specials, combos, etc. i don't want a game where 90% of the moves are worthless, combos are worthless, and specials are worthless. i want each and every move to balance out a character so fights aren't one dimensional where every fight looks the same because you only need three over powered moves to win.

3) what good is going to come out of jocking mk and pretending nothing's wrong with it? how is that going to progress the series in anyway? people like you aren't helping it out. people who recognize mistakes and speak loudly about them are the people who make a difference (not to mention jobs as play testers but that's a different subject all together).

in the end, it doesn't matter what you play it for. guess what? i love mk and probably always will. but i love fighting games and games in general to compete and as it stands, there's no reason to compete in mortal kombat. absolutely no reason. until they fix that, expect people like me to continue to complain about it. we complain because we like the series and roll our eyes at the sight of it being thrown away. they have one of the most interesting game series in their hands and they continue to blow it away everytime because fans want things that don't improve the main aspect in the game in anyway. while it irks you watching me speaking facts and acting arrogant, it irks me even more that you call yourself a mortal kombat fan and don't care how bad the fighting is in it. this is the only fanbase i can think of that just bends over and takes anything with "mk" on it. not caring how bad it really is because hey! it's mk! and mk is kewl! screw if it isn't any good! it's mk! even the smash brothers board recognizes what is and isn't good fighting. the mk community doesn't and don't want to learn. just read this thread again to see that. you people have the nerve to say "mk isn't like other fighters so back off!" when neither is smash brothers. yet that series does things EVERY fighter should and does them well. so quit pretending mk is some different genre all together. it's not. it's just insanely bad at the genre it's trying to be. that's what seperates it. not blood and gore. just really bad fighting. the fighting is so bad you people are actually starting to believe it can't be compared to other fighters LOL. wow. the only other game i can think of where it's so bad that people think it's good is shaq-fu. yes, mortal kombat fans are on par with shaq-fu fans. feel proud. i know i'm not. but it's not my responsibility either to open your eyes. that's your own decision.

way too much rambling. but i didn't think people could be any more ignorant than what's shown in this thread.

Versatile wrote :

"See this is the part where you prove 100% that you have no idea what you're talking about. Only about 8 characters in MKDA could compete consistantly. While in VF4 you can win with EVERYBODY with a good chance. VF4 matters more about your skill with a char than how good the char is. This is why Pai(who I think is low tier) can spank Akira(who I remembered to be the best in game) any given day."

This is the part where YOU prove to be 100% arrogant and ignorant as many if not most others accurately and correctly pointed out.

In VF4 you CAN NOT win with everybody with a good chance, the reason : You have NO CHANCE of mastering more than 1 or 2 characters. I thought you knew your stuff, perhaps you just misread my post or are so wrapped up in your own self righteousness and perceived importance that you can no longer see past the end of your nose. In MK you have a chance to be competitive with any character as they can all be learnt relatively easilly. So I'll stand by my opinion that VF's strength is also it's weakness. MK's supposed weakness is also IT's strength.

Infinites aside, tiers only become a factor when 2 players of fairly equal ability clash.

No matter how much you criticise this game I am fairly certain you will be out there online when the game comes out like the rest of us. Will we see the name "Versatile" dominating tournaments online?

Time will tell.
Not interested in an internet war with you BTW. I will see you on the field.

sumixam Wrote: In VF4 you CAN NOT win with everybody with a good chance, the reason : You have NO CHANCE of mastering more than 1 or 2 characters. I thought you knew your stuff, perhaps you just misread my post or are so wrapped up in your own self righteousness and perceived importance that you can no longer see past the end of your nose. In MK you have a chance to be competitive with any character as they can all be learnt relatively easilly. So I'll stand by my opinion that VF's strength is also it's weakness. MK's supposed weakness is also IT's strength.

That's not what Versatile was talking about. He was talking about how the roster is balanced and that a skilled user of one character has a decent shot of beating another character. He wasn't talking about learning a whole cast.

All things considered though, Versatile, I think maybe this has gone on too long. I keep seeing these threads and you, Tony the Tiger, Saty, and Menth all provide proof to back up your statements and only get crap thrown back in your face. Maybe people just don't want MK to be a good fighting game... God, I'm almost disgusted to type that but I'm starting to think it's true.

And that's basically all I'm going to say, I don't feel like getting caught up in this. There are way too many threads like this on this board as it is and nothing is ever gained.

"That's not what Versatile was talking about. He was talking about how the roster is balanced and that a skilled user of one character has a decent shot of beating another character. He wasn't talking about learning a whole cast."

I do realise that as well. How ever to begin with he wasn't addressing in his reply what I was trying to say either. He tried to deflect my point, one I feel is valid, by saying I don't know what I am talking about. Being able to learn the entire MK cast is a positive for the game, not a negative. It beats VF and other fighters in this regard. That's what I was trying to say.

I don't think either side is getting anywhere. We all have our beliefs and opinions and that's fine. At the end of the day, sales is what really matters to the MK team and like I said before, they already have a guaranteed winner. If that's my fault because I like the game then hopefully guilty as charged. Who is more guilty though, those that buy it because they like it or those that don't like it but buy it anyway?

Ironically both sides want the same thing, ie. a great game.

It's what's seen as good, even great that is what's being argued here.

Poor MK... Classify is as Puzzle/Board Game/RPG(I guess Konquest resembles)/(fighter)... I thought MKDA was fun at first but now it kinda just irks me... because that 80% of the moves are worthless... now MK4 was a pretty uninspired 3-D fighter, but I guess that wouldn't be a true 3-D fighter... I mean I really want MKD to be a good game... I really really do... it has everything it needs, but a even/fair/decent/unique(lets forget the 3 styles, because if you take the useful moves per person its a full style) fighting engine... maybe they should take the useful moves per person and make two styles per person... hmm??? Oh well I guess if thats what they want... that's what they'll get... a bad fighter with an excellent storyline/puzzle game/board game/cool fatalities and a deep voiced announcer and their favorite characters... but no way to use them all anytime they want, because only ten fighters will be usable in tournament/vs. human situations... later

"SoulEdge316 Wrote:
Looks like MENTHOL the pimp gave his working girls a break so they could come out and repeat & repost his stupid, arrogant, nonsense."

Why the hell do I have to write anything when he has explained it all?

"And scrubs? please, I've mastered and learned to enjoy every fighting game I've ever played, from Karate Champ, to the Street Fighters, the Fatal Furys, Fighter's History, Tekken 1-4, Killer Instinct etc., so before you start judging people and generalizing, make sure you know you are talking about."

If you're a master I would like to ask you to a game of street fighter (one of the games you have mastered) on kaillera. Your version of street figher. I'll let you choose. Heck, I'll even take you in any mortal kombat or king of fighters. I want to make sure you know what you are talking about. If you are a "master" as you say post up your aim and lets get this shit done.

"If there's anything worst than scrubs, it's arrogant fighting game assholes who think are above everybody else because they just play certain "elite" games."

listen crybaby, I would like a good fighter from midway. A good mortal kombat fighter. A good fighter. MKDA was horrible. From what I have seen this will be a improvement but a small one. Also, I am looking at the online factor. i would like to play the game using a wide range of fighters. More than 1/3 of the total roster in my playing time. I would like to win with more than 1/3 of the roster in high level play.

"Some of you sound so jaded, like you envy or you just can't swallow having Mortal Kombat fans be happy with the games." I am a mortal kombat fan. I was not happy with MKDA. As were many who played it. All we want is to make sure that the mistakes made in the first are not translated into the second. From what I have seen on this site it is up to the 'elite' posters you write about to bring them to light becuase more than 1/2 of you don't know what they are.


"As soon as there's a thread of people talking about how they like Deadly Alliance or can't wait for Deception, or saying how they(in their opinion) think MK Deception will be a great game, a siren sounds in the "Elite Hall of H@rk0rez Fighting Game Fans" and out comes someone with the usual rambling about how uncomparably deep VF4 is or the greatness of red parrys in Street Fighter III, and claiming how MK sucks and their fans are all scrubs."

MK is not a respected tournament fighter. The last Mk to get get a good tourny round was UMK3...in the US. Maybe MK4 but I did not follow that too much. It is important to point out the flaws in games like MK to make sure when YOU buy the product, it is top notch and not some broken piece of trash that cannot be played online becuase everyone will pick sonya and win with sonya because only can beat anyone. I don't want that shit and neither should anyone else here.

You all look funny for fighting so much about a video game. Keep it up. This is the most exciting thing on MK:O right now.

I would assume people would like to spend whatever money this game costs and get absloutely everything they can and also please the fans of both sides. the ones who want "entertainment" and the ones who want a good, national/online worthy tourny fighter.

Thi is supposed to be a fighting game if I remember correctly. Not a RPG.

The Truth Speaks The Truth. You're right. I am sick of being put down for saying there's something wrong with the franchise I love much. What the hell ever. I hope that when the time comes me and the rest of the players who know what the hell is going on can enjoy this game together and make whatever we can out of the shallow gameplay.

Colguile I'd like to set up some MK/SF games, what's your aim?

And for the record, I could fully understand you not wanting to put your AIM here. So you can just pm me it if you want.

You're sick of being put down? Well, you know what I'M sick of? Same thing, except with me I got pompous assholes trying to tell me what I like or don't like. That if I like something that they so arrogantly deem crap, there must be something fuckin' wrong with me. When you do that, you show just how much of a pathetic fucking slave you are to your own pride and you're "opinion" ends up amounting to that of a pile of shit, and consequently not worth my time.

MKDemon stfu.

99.999999999999% of you fans of the MK series are jokes.

What the fuck?! how can y'all say stupid shit like:
"there is NOTHING wrong with the fighting system"
or
"how is it bad when THAT's how the fighting engine is supposed to be"

HAHAHAHAHA
WHACK, just whack. These other people on here ACTUAL gamers I might add, have some common sense in the way that they WANT the game to be better for EVERYONE's enjoyment. They don't want the developers to just pump out the same game with a few characters & take their & your money.

THAT is garbage.

and you all are morons, this IS a fighting game, look it up, it falls under that genre. So you CAN & HAVE to compare it to other fighters.

It all has a circle of life effect.... yea maybe a few thousand of y'all pee brain idoits will waste your money on the new MKD but once the developers go bankrupt, then what y'all gonnna do?

MK series is no where even in the BALLPARK close to the Tekken/Soul Calibur/Street Fighter/KOF series man, NOT EVEN CLOSE.... that garbage doesn't even compare to Powerstone for dreamcast.... and that's sad.


Dial-a-combos
STIFF play, which is SO HORRIBLE.

I think y'alls heads would blow right the fuck up if you played a decent game like PIT FIGHTER! BAHAHAHAHAHA

on the realest, you should all stop sucking dick & bitch more, to get changes and HELP your community the DEVELOPERS you worship, all y'all need to write an e-mail to them and say you push that shit back & make a decent game that COMPETES and is even ARCADE WORTHY...... OMG

bums

MKDemon Wrote: You're sick of being put down? Well, you know what I'M sick of? Same thing, except with me I got pompous assholes trying to tell me what I like or don't like. That if I like something that they so arrogantly deem crap, there must be something fuckin' wrong with me. When you do that, you show just how much of a pathetic fucking slave you are to your own pride and you're "opinion" ends up amounting to that of a pile of shit, and consequently not worth my time.

Nah im worth your time since you made that sweet little paragraph all for me. Thanks, it's nice knowing I'm worth atleast a paragraph :)

B00gieman Wrote: MKDemon stfu. 99.999999999999% of you fans of the MK series are jokes. What the fuck?! how can y'all say stupid shit like: "there is NOTHING wrong with the fighting system" or "how is it bad when THAT's how the fighting engine is supposed to be" HAHAHAHAHA WHACK, just whack. These other people on here ACTUAL gamers I might add, have some common sense in the way that they WANT the game to be better for EVERYONE's enjoyment. They don't want the developers to just pump out the same game with a few characters & take their & your money. THAT is garbage. and you all are morons, this IS a fighting game, look it up, it falls under that genre. So you CAN & HAVE to compare it to other fighters. It all has a circle of life effect.... yea maybe a few thousand of y'all pee brain idoits will waste your money on the new MKD but once the developers go bankrupt, then what y'all gonnna do? MK series is no where even in the BALLPARK close to the Tekken/Soul Calibur/Street Fighter/KOF series man, NOT EVEN CLOSE.... that garbage doesn't even compare to Powerstone for dreamcast.... and that's sad. Dial-a-combos STIFF play, which is SO HORRIBLE. I think y'alls heads would blow right the fuck up if you played a decent game like PIT FIGHTER! BAHAHAHAHAHA on the realest, you should all stop sucking dick & bitch more, to get changes and HELP your community the DEVELOPERS you worship, all y'all need to write an e-mail to them and say you push that shit back & make a decent game that COMPETES and is even ARCADE WORTHY...... OMG bums

Man and I thought I had a brash delievery. Hey, guess it had to be said.

Ok, I 'll get in here and express my opinion too.

First of all, the main reason why I like MK is because of the fluff.
The characters, fireballs, blood, fatalities ect.....

Now as much as I love MK, I can't say that it's a great fighter.

Reason being the large lack of options when fighting.

MK is a simple fighter that is supposed to be just for fun. That's the way I see it anyway.

What I wish is that it would have a LOT more options for the actual fighting.

When I think of a fighting game, what I think of is all the things that the game should be incorporating.

My idea of a great fighting game is.

Great graphics

Cool characters

Cool stages

Very deep fighting engine = Deep doesn't mean hard or unplayable.

Actually a deep engine makes things a lot easier because you have so many options and are not as limited.

Freedom is a big plus for me.



The way I see it, MK has all but the main one IMO.


The game is going to be much better with the new movement and combo breakers, but it's still not enough for what I would expect from a good fighting game.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Things I would have to make a good fighting game for me. This is just my opinion.

(The fluff)

Amazing graphics

Cool characters

Dynamic camera work, like in the movies

Awesome interactive stages

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Basic game play)

Easy and effective movement

Smooth animation

Useful attacks, and moves like rolls etc.

A Ton of attacks

Realistic looking reversals, sways and parries.

Escapable combos

lots of variations for combos. High, med, low, side step, throw, counter stance, all that kind of stuff could be used to make combos more exiting and more fun.

Attack while in different positions

Crouching
Laying down face up or face down
Standing with back to the opponent
side step attacks


Tec. roll

Wall Tec. roll



(Then the things to bring it over the top or Depth)

Throw escapes

Throw reversals

Reversal reversals

throw chain combos

Attack combos link to throw

counter or auto parry stance

buffering

good frame data to control the effectiveness of the attacks.

Timed attacks or combos Sort of like just frame moves, or the combos in Tao Feng for more powerful attacks.

Harder commands give the player the feeling of accomplishment when the execute them. You could call them "show off moves"

Feints

change up moves = An attack that is a fake and is interrupted with another.

Delayable combos = You can control the speed of the combo to make it harder for your opponent to break.

Counter hits and different effects if a move connects as such. For example if you do a med kick to the gut.

A normal hit will push the opponent back.
Counter hit can stun them, or make them fall.

Down attacks = like in Tekken and VF, you can hit characters when they are on the floor.

Off wall attacks or jumps

Wall throws like in DOA3 and VF4


Extra flashy moves and special attacks

Chargeable moves and special attacks

Button hold time dependent moves. Like if you tap kick, you can do a high kick, but if you hold it, you will kick and go into another stance, The Flamingo or something.

If you hold punch, you will throw 2 punches instead of one

If you hold punch, the effect of the attack will be different on the opponent.

Many stances, and easy switching between them.


there are a ton of other things, but I'm tired of typing.



Not all these things need to be in a fighting game, but a lot of them yes, that is if the game play is intended to be something special.


My point is that if MK can have all that other stuff, it can also have a lot more options for the game play. Why improve on one thing, and not the other, when it could be so much better, fun and exiting.


That is what I want from MK. They don't need to make a whole new engine, they just need to add a lot more to it for it to be impressive in my eyes.


I still love to play MK, I just get a feeling of emptiness when I imagine all the things that I think should be in it.


Again, this is just how I feel, and my way of thinking.


Also, when I read posts about all the eye candy that has been put in this game, and the characters etc... I'm all for that stuff and I think it's a must for MK, but I can't help but wonder why we should be left out in the cold so to speak.

I think MK could be so much better if they really improved on that one area called "Game play"

I don't want another SC or VF, I want a better playing MK.


See what I mean?



Maybe in the future, I hope.

hmmm, thanx Bleed. that's just what i was looking for; an actual definition of the word "deep". i suppose it would be nice if MK did have all of that but, as i said before, MK is a simple fighter...and that's what i like about it. leave all of that technical mumbo-jumbo to the RPG's and other fighters.

Cool, No problem.



The thing about such a design for a fight engine is that you don't need to know all that extra mumbo Jumbo.

A casual player can just do the basics, if that's all they are interested in.

In other words, you would basically still be able to play MKD just the way it is now.

If you don't want to learn all the extras, then you don't have to.


It works out for everybody because the Casual as well as the Hard core players are kept happy.

The choice of how to play is left up to the player, so there is no need to keep the system to the basics.

At least, none that I can think of.

that's the thing. there's a lot of fighters out there that is just as simple as mk. but they're deeper for reasons already mentioned. street fighter, smash brothers, etc are all fairly simple to get into if not simpler. but mk doesn't go beyond simple. there's no depth. thast's what we're complaining about. so what gives mk the right to be simple and nothing else while games as simple or simpler like smash brothers are 50x deeper? there is no reason. it's a lame reason to use. mk SHOULD be as deep as them.

The way I think it, is choice. You want a deep fighter with lots of moves and variety? Go play Virtual Fighter or Tekken 4 OR Soul Calibur 2. Want to be a casual gamer who's not in the mood for all those complicated combos? Go play some classic Mortal Kombat.

On another note, MKDA is the demo for Deception. I mean, once I unlocked everything in the game I just got bored of it and the replay value just disingreated.

Combos in VF, SC, or Tekken are for the most part of the same complexity as the combos in MKDA.

Actually, some of the combos in MK are pretty tricky and the casual player has trouble with them.

The style branchers

I also don't see the point in telling people to play the other games if they want complexity...........We already do, that's why we are asking for it from MK. A lot of people see it as better, and these people want MK to be better.


And I can use the same argument in the other direction. If casual players don't want to do all the more complex things.............Don't.

If you want to stay with the bare basics, well there is nothing holding anybody back from that. If you want to use the same 2 or 3 combos over and over, just do.


What's the problem?


It just doesn't make any sense to me at all.


1= If we have all those options for game play then the people that want to keep it simple can, and the ones that want more complexity have it too.



2= But if all we have is the basics, then the people who want the basics have it, but the ones that want more have what.......dissatisfaction.



Which one sounds better 1 or 2?


I say 1.

I used to say I want MK to be simple, but thanks to Bleed's explanation I'd be happy either way

It would be awesome if MK was very deep. Fans of the simple gameplay can still have fun while fans of deep gameplay can have fun too. I'm still gonna buy MK:Deception because I don't need deep gameplay but if MK did have deep gameplay everybody would be happy.

Like I have said. Calling yourself a master automatically makes you a scrub.

When did I call myself a master?

There's a big difference between learning and mastering a game or games, and claiming to be an unbeatable master player, which is something I never said.

Show me a single paragraph where I claim or boast that I'm better than anybody or a master as you put it. There is always going to be someone better than me and mostly better than everybody else.

My point was that I played those games, practiced, learned every character, and every technique there is to them until I perfected them, be it timing, combos etc., but that doesn't make me a master, it just makes me a player who can go into any of those games and use any character effectively, way beyond the average scrub that doesn't know what they're doing and thinks they can play a game just cause he/she learned how to press the buttons, and memorized from some magazine or guide how to pull off a few special moves.

Maybe I chose the wrong way to phrase, but don't put words in my mouth or insinuate something that it's not. Hope my point was understood.

And before things go farther and the argument gets more heated, let me make clear that I've never claimed MK DA(or the MK franchise as a whole) do not have any problems or flaws. I love the games but they clearly have issues that should be addressed in order to have a smoother gameplay, like one example I gave in another thread is strong moves that aren't prone to leaving the attacker open for a counter attack. In MK DA you throw a roundhouse kick or any strong moves that inflicts major damage and the attacker recovers too quickly, unlike say Tekken or Soul Calibur, where you just can't go throwing attacks in the air without getting pummeled.

The reason I entered this thread is because of a lot of MENTHOL's comments that gave me an arrogant vibe. It's one thing to put out your opinions or points, and talk about the flaws or how they could be fixed, but when you start pushing up opinions into people, generalizing and sounding like you have a higher than thou, "I'm better or above you because I play certain games" attitude, then there's a problem. And it's something that I've seen in a lot of forums and places, and it's sad.

On the other hand I can see what triggers that sort of attitude, when you have a large group of blind fans that will get rabid whenever you say something negative about their game and at times they end up sounding like infants. But the door swings both ways.

*person talks about the flaws of a Mortal Kombat game, then moments later gets jumped by rabid MK fans*

*person talks about liking Mortal Kombat and thinking how great the games are, then moments later gets jumped by other fighting games fans and a huge MK sucks/doesn't suck argument breaks out*

Either way I hope there aren't any hard feelings or judgement is passed because of the things said in this thread. In the end we're all fighting game fans and the only thing that separates us is the way we play each game and the reasons we play them.

Last but not least to the person that challenged me to a game, I would love to take you up on that challenge, but I'm on 56k, and the last time I ever played on Kaillera was Street Fighter Alpha 3 and it was a slow and laggy hell. If God allows I'll be making the switch to broadband by the time MK Deception and Halo 2 come out so if I ever spot you around these forums or others(I also post on TNL.com and Gamefaqs) I'll gladly accept.