That has got to be the best post I've read in this entire thread..EXCELLENT job Bleed. I truly hope if you get on the team you can do more than be a modeler...truly excellent bro.

One thing that is going to be difficult for Midway is to make custom combos with a system like this. I really dont have a problem with simple stance change and branch combos, but I believe there should be other combo options as well. I'm not going to bother putting ideas up since I think bleed pretty much covered that, but Id like to talk about a few other things.

I really don't like how Sub-Zero uses Shotokan in MKDA. He seems stiff and robotic. I think he should be a lot looser and a lot more..Shotokan like. Quicker movement and more "WOW" in his attacks.

Jeet Kune Do was done VERY WELL stance form wise, but I believe the attacks should be more forceish. Maybe it's the sound effects or something, but I always thought of JKD being something more like Jann lee in DOA3 or Marshall Law in Tekken 4. A flashy, damagine stance with a balnce of everything. Perhaps I just wasn't seeing it in MKDA.

Tae Kwon Do in MKDA...far too simple. Look at Sarah in VF4 or Hwoarang in T4...look how much DEPTH is put into their movement and attacks. Sonya felt stiff and her TKD was way too basic. I hope in MK6 a character like Sub-Zero or perhaps Li Mei has TKD..it just seems to suit them better. I think Sonya should have simpler stances.

Muay Thai is really weird in MKDA to me. I always thought that Muay Thai was not about combos, but about single..POWERFUL strikes that take off chunks of your bar. I hope in MK6 Jax's damage comes from these power strikes and not from 50 hit broken combos.

As someone else stated earlier in this topic..every stance in MK6 should have a meaning. I believe when serious developement time rolls around for MK6 that everyone should sit down and discuss each stance indivisually and come up with a basic goal. I am pretty sure in MKDA everyone just made some stances and gave them some combos because if you really look at it besides they way they move all the characters play the same way. The only difference is whether their stuff is fast enough,powerful enough and safe enough. No character has something that sets them apart from everyone else. I believe this should be worked on for MK6. Also, the team should work on balancing the stances out so everything has a use unlike in MKDA.

Other than stances I also believe every character should have a theme. Whether it's reversals,parries,throws,movement,mix ups,etc....Jax should be the polar opposite of say Scorpion or Johnny Cage. This way diversity is at it's max.

Im gonna talk a bit about SOME of the stuff I put in the “essay” on pages 3+4. I feel some things need to be added.



“The reversal animation in MKDA was very unpolished. When the person successfully connected with a reversal the character would lock onto the opponent, but the hand didn’t really have contact with the body part, making it looked rushed and silly. When the reversal connects the character should automatically go into the animation of that particular character reversal.”

Examples:

Sub-Zero


1. Sub-Zero locks onto opponents leg/arm and immediately freezes it. The opponent falls to the ground and roll in pain, giving Sub-Zero an oki opportunity.
2. Special Just Frame Version of reversal example number 1, if you a special command when Sub clinches onto the opponent’s body part sub will freeze their body part, but this time as the opponent begins to fall to the ground the frozen arm/leg spreads to their whole body, causing them to be frozen and giving you a free combo.

Scorpion

1. When scorpion locks onto the opponent’s arm/leg flips behind the opponent with Ninja like grace and cracks their neck.
2. Special Just Frame Version of reversal example number 1, if you input a special command when scorp is about to crack the opponent’s neck scorpion’s neck crack will do extra damage. As they fall to the ground Scorpion will put his hands together as if he were focusing energy. His whole body would become engulfed in flames for 2 seconds and Scorpion’s aggressor meter would boost by 2 blocks.

Johnny Cage

1. When Cage locks onto the opponent’s arm/leg he would say something(can’t think of anything, but something..Johnny Cagey) and then he should launch them high into the air(think Jeet Kune Do’s back+1 attack, but it launches them much higher). As they are in the air Cage puts on his Shades, as they are coming down Johnny charges up and unleashes a green shadow kick.
2. Special Just Frame Version of reversal example number 1, if you input a special command when Cage launches them into the air Cage will do a red shadow kick instead of a green one. No matter what stage or you are on this will ALWAYS cause a wall hit, as they hit the hall you hear a crunching noise, cage then puts on his shades and is suorrunded by a sparkly aura. His aggressor is now full.

Obviously from the examples you can tell that I believe Cage should have some of the deadliest Just Frames in the game. To counter this they should also be EXTREMELY hard to do of course. Harder than other Just Frames.


“Weapon Throws should be included in this game. Each character should have one, and they all do over at least 30 damage. They should have difficult commands and look very flashy. Everyone’s weapon throw should have a different escape, forcing players who want to become good to find out the escape for all of them. Naturally characters who depend more on their weapons than others like Quan Chi and Drahmin should have the best weapon throws.”

Examples

Johnny Cage

Johnny Cage does a 6 or 7 hit combo that’s is fast and ends it with a whack that sends them flying back

Sub-Zero

Sub-Zero swings his kori blade upwards and launchers the opponent into the air. Sub Draws his sword upward and the water particles in the air slows begin to surround the Kori Blade, giving it an aura sort of look. Think Nightmare’s winning taunt in SC2 where he raises his sword, but instead of it being souls or whatever that surrounds it there would be ice particles. As they hit the ground Sub-Zero immediately slam the sword hard into the ground, doing a good amount of damage to the opponent.

Quan Chi

Quan chi puts his two broadswords together and a bring light surround them. The Broadswords unify and turn into the living weapon. Quan Chi then points the living weapon at the dizzy opponent and unleashes a swarm of fly that slowy drain away their health. This would do great damage.



“Ground throws should be exclusive to big time grapplers like Jax and Kano. Ground throws are for when the opponent is on the ground. These throws are normally some sort of or leg wrench or something like that. They should do solid damage but be very escapeable.”

EXAMPLES

Jax

Jax grabs onto both of the opponents legs and swings them upward and slams them into the ground

Kano

Kano kneels down and grabs onto the opponent’s head. He then says in a heavy Australian accent “are you ok” and bashes your head into the ground. Some of the tile shatters.

“I think every character in MKDA should have the ability to utilize the different arena structures and perform a throw. Whether be against the cactus on Edenia Dessert or on the icicles of The Lin Kuei Temple. Each throw for each character should look the same so there are no arenas advantages.”

1. Character grabs onto opponent’s head and smashes it into a cactus, causing blood to squirt out.
2. Character grabs icicles off of the walls. They storye it somewhere, and by tapping a shoulder button the characters tosses them all out at once.



4. Character Specific Movement

“One thing missing from MKDA was character specific movement. Characters should have certain ways of maneuvering around the arena that no other character has. Of course everyone would have the standard walk,dash,duck and side step, but every character should have other alternatives for advanced play. A couple of examples

Raiden – Teleportation..simple as that. It should now be packed to the brim with options unlike the simple d,u in the past games. Besides the d,u, raiden should also have a teleport that takes him straight to the opponents face as well as an air teleport that goes over specials such as the spear and freeze. While the teleporting the opponent should also be able to buffer in attacks. So for example..suppose the teleportation to face command is qcf+2 and his shock till you drop throw is b,f,f+2+4, while teleporting the player can input the STYD throw so as soon as raiden is in their face he will grab them and perform the throw. Since this can easily become unbalanced raiden should have some of the biggest throw escape windows in the game. The teleport should also be able to take raiden to either side and he should have a teleport that takes him near the closest useable item on an arena.

Nitara – why flight of course. It should be a little like sindel’s flight in MK Trilogy. Only she should have an air throw and a lot more attack opitions. Flight mode should be more like a stance than just a movement. I can’t really give you advice as to how to go about doing this, but I have faith in midway.

These are just two examples. This is what would make MK unique compared to other fighters. Since no other fighter has this kind of stuff, Hardcore players will be attracted to the in depth throw game, the interesting plot and gameplay AND the brand spanking new character specific movement stuff in mk6.”

Well, I think I should add that besides character-esque movement that ALL CHARACTERS should also have professionally looking, martial art based movement. Since I don’t know much about martial arts, I’ll just give a few examples from the fighting games I play. I play Hwoarang in Tekken 4, so expect a few examples from him.
1. The Angel Step – The movement for Cassandra in Soul Calibur 2. She crouch dashes in then side steps. So this movements zones in AND side steps at the same time making it very versatile.

2. The Triple Side Step – One of Hwoarang’s many movements from tekken 4. When you do f+3 with Hwoarang in any Tekken he goes into flamingo stances, but when this happens he also does a slight side step. Also, the side step flamingo is bigger than the normal side steps, so if you sidestep,press f+3 and then side step again while in flamingo it will produce the largest side step in the whole game. If you do this when a opponent does a vertical attack it may very well take hwoarang all the way to their back guaranteeing him some stuff.

3. The Mist Step – Lee’s movement in Tekken 4. By tapping forward lee does a dash that goes under all high attacks and sometimes a couple mid attacks! The beauty of this technique is the fact that Lee can link things into his miststep ! The mist step command is forward~neutral. 1,2 is Lee’s jab combo can can be linked into his Mist Step. So for example something like 1,2~forward~neutral~1,2~forward~neutral is very possible and is used by all high level lee players. It looks very cool in juggles as well.

4. The BT Run – A movement that me and my friends came up with in Bloody Roar: Primal Fury. NOTE if anyone came up with this before me please don’t flame me ..heh. So anyway, there are certain moves in BR that when done makes the opponent turn arrounds. So now the controls are reversed. Forward is back and back is forward. So by tapping back once and then tapping it again by holding on, the character begins to basically run away in the other direction. This is good for when time is running out and you have the lead. Of course faster characters like Bakyru have more uses with this than slow characters like Basuzima. Perhaps in MK6 this can become something that only a select amount of characters have.

5. The Hussle – This is something that many Hwoarang players do without even realizing. Hwoarang has many stances, but easiest ones to access are his back turned stance and his right foot forward stance. To get into back turned you simple have to press 1+2 and to get into right foot forward you simply have to press 3+4. Pressing either one again takes him back to facing front and left foot forward. So by quickly mashing 1+2~1+2~3+4~3+4 Hwoarang can do some pretty crazy looking stuff. This is one of the reasons why Hwoarang is known as “crazy legs” for his various movement. This really has no SERIOUS, but it’s a psyche out. You can also quickly stop doing this and throw out a low punch or even a throw, so it really messes with their head.

6. The Hayashadia Dash – This works for Paul,Bryan and Nina in Tekken 4. Basically what this does Is the character does a sway back(a back dash that cover more range basically) then quickly does a side step. Command for this is d,d/b,b,u. So basically you swing your stick/pad from down all the way to up really fast. If you continue to do this the character will quick backdash and side step. This gets the character away quickly and also sidesteps so you can punish those who try to retaliate. Any Tekken experts can correct some of the stuff because not only do I not play Paul,Nina or Bryan, but Im also not the brightest of Tekken 4 players. Im sure Saty can correct some of my errors, but I think I am on the right track with this.

Those are just a few examples .I can’t really think of any more, but you get the point. Movement like this would give players more options and make for looser gameplay so the characters no longer feel stiff.

I have nothing to quote from the Return of The Agressor idea from my “essay” but here are a few ideas as to what some character’s aggressor could look like

Johnny Cage put his shades on and is surrounded by a sparkly aura. Like all other characters, Cage’s aggressor would boost his speed,power,frame advantage, throw damage and reduce wall damage. Cage’s special aggressor attribute would be that he cannot be reversed or parried for the 10 seconds that his aggressor lasts.

Kenhi’s sword would glow red with the souls of his ancestors, and his whole body would be surrounded by a red aura. Like I just said(and I won’t refer to this anymore) all character’s aggressor would give them extra speed,power,range advantage,throw damage and reduce wall damage. Kenshi’s special aggressor attriubute would be that all moves involving telekinesis all have more range and cause guard stun if blocked.

Sub-Zero’s muscles would bulk up and the ice on his body would thicken. He would of course be surrounded by a blew aura and his eyes would now be ENTIRELY bright blue. Sub Zero’s reversals now do more damage, and all damage done to Sub-Zero is cut in half.

Quan Chi would have the good old blur effect. When in this state when you input the command of ANY of your opponent’s moves you can now use it. You can only do this for 3 of your opponent’s moves per aggressor. If you’d like to steal more moves when you’re in aggressor again and you already have 3 moves stolen you must press both of your shoulder buttons to RANDOMLY get rid of one the specials you stole. The moves you stole are your to keep for the rest of the match if you like whether you are in aggressor or not. You’re opponent can still use the specials you stole. Each time you do one of the stolen specials you lose 10% health.

Scorpion would become engulfed in fire and take off his mask. When Scorpion is in Aggressor EVERYTHING he does is consider to be a counter hit. However, everything done to Scorpion is also a counter hit. Because counter hits already increase damage Scorpion would not have the power increase that all the other characters get from the aggressor. Each time your opponent reverses Scorpion they take 10% health. The spear is now unsidesteppable.

These are just a couple of my ideas.


“ Come on guys..these are punches and kicks. I believe if someone sweeped me and my fell on my ass it’d hurt..a lot. My point is that low attacks should do a lot more damage.”

Examples

1. Shang Tsung and Sub-Zero’s sweeps should now do ATLEAST 15% instead of the measly 8 % they do in MKDA.
2. Li Mei’s many sweeps should also do more damage.
3. The low pokes that do absolutely no damage should now do a little bit more to give them some sort of use.



“Delayable attacks would throw off timing, add frame advantage and power to moves and would simply add depth to an already deep game. For example. Each punch of Jax’s Piston punch could be delayable. So instead of being just d,f+1 like in MKDA it could be qcf+1,1,1,1,1. Each punch can be delayed or sped up however you like. If you delay each punch would do more damage,etc. Some throws should also be delayable. Lastly, when you delay something it should cause the character to charge up kind of like in SC2. When I say charge I basically mean they have cool sparks and stuff ya know the drill.”

EXAMPLES

1.Sub-Zero’s Ice Shaker. If you hold onto 2 when you do b,d+2 he will pause and not do the ice shaker until you let go. The longer your hold on the longer they will be frozen if the ice shaker connects.

2.Sub-Zero’s freeze. Holding onto 1 when you do d,f+1 will cause sub to charge up sort of like Goku’s Kamehameha attack in Dragon Ball. The longer you hold on the longer the opponent will be frozen if it connects.

3.Delaying Raiden’s thunder rush(f,f+4 I think is the command) would give it guard stun and make it to do more damage.\

4.Scorpion’s pop up in Ninja Sword(press 3) if delayed would cause a guard stun and would do more damage.



“Wall teching should be a lot harder in MK6. in MKDA if you are hit against a wall you could simply tap up or down to wall tech and there was no timing to it at all. In MK6 when someone is near a wall they should piss their pizants. It should be the core of damage the OWNAGE spot. Because frankly, with all the character specific movement and deeper gameplay there really should be no reason for you to be against a wall.. The wall techning should need to be timed perfectly.”

Imagine Jax OWNING YA UP against a wall because you cant tech..ouch .nasty.


“Taking a page out of Soul Calibur 2 you guys shoul’d make certain move’s cancelable. For example the ice shaker is b,d+2 in MKDA, but by doing b,d+2~block sub will start the animation but go straight back to blocking. This would throw off opponent’s timing big time. Throws should be cancelable as well.”

CANCELABLE ATTACK EXAMPLES

1. Scorpion’s Summon Hell Fire
2. Jax’s Piston Punch
3. Sub-Zero Ice Shaker
4. Cage’s Johnny Uppercut
5. Kitana’s Fan Wave
6. Drahmin’s Ground Pound
7. Throw attacks
8. Some basic attacks(punches,kicks,weapon attacks)




“Keep in mind that MK is now a 3D game. Tell me what 3D game has block damage these days. It just doesn’t work midway. In the old school MKs and in other 2D games like MVC2 and CVS2 it’s a necessity, but in MKDA it just makes it harder for defensive characters to .well .defense.”

I still stick by this comment strongly. No 3D fighter that is out has chip damage. This would slightly help out damage. Pressure character like Bo Rai Cho,Jax, Kung Lao and Reptile wouldn’t be quiet as good if it weren’t for chip.




“Im not sure how to explain this, but putting frame advantage into MK6 would be kind of difficult with the blocking system in MKDA. Here’s why. Sonya’s Tae Kwon Do: 3 is safe on block because it knocks the opponent back a considerable amount of distance. However, if Sonya does TKD:3 and I let go of block as soon as 3 is over I will not move back and I will be comfortable In front of Sonya, ready to punish with my 50% combo. So im not trying to go all tekken on you, but maybe you should use their blocking system. Where to block you hold back. This way there would be no way to cheat blocking. But honestly I don’t know how else this would work. I am not trying to make MK tekken , but im not sure how to make frame advantage work with the current blocking system. Ask MKL, he plays DOA and if I remember correctly you block the same way in DOA as you do in MKDA. Dunno ”

Can someone in DOA tell me how their block system works? It’s the only fighter I can think of off the top of my head that uses the same block system as DOA, and also, does DOA have frame advantage? I someone how doubt FA are possible with that type of block.



“First and foremost no more “everything is guaranteed combos”. This simply cannot happen. There is absolutely nothing wrong with branch combos, but they should not be guaranteed on hit under any circum stance.
2 . Counter Hit system needs to be put in MK6. Im sure you know what counter hitting is, but just in case. I’ll use Tekken 4 as an example, though many games has this system. Ok Im using Kazuya Mashima, possibly the most CH dependant character in Tekken 4, and you are using Paul. Now Kazuya has a move called the Demon God Fist(while rising+2) it’s a hook punch that does ok damage. However, if paul did his Phoenix Smasher when Kazuya does his while rising+2 and Kazuya’s move wr+2 hits first, it will cause a counter hit. Unlike the regular wr+2, on counter hit paul would hold onto his gut and crumble down a bit. Now you are in Kazuya’s world. From here on you can do 1,2,TGF while he is crumpling for a total of like 70% damage. This is how the combo system should be done in MK6. So for example, Sub Zero’s 1,2,b+2 should not be guaranteed on hit. 1,2 should, but the b+2 should only be guaranteed if the 1,2 hit on CH. Another example would be Scorpion’s Pi Gua 4. On regular hit it does a little damage and DOES NOT cause stun on hit(it does in MKDA, but fix this for MK6), however, if 4 hits on CH it does much more damage and guarantees a Ninja Sword: 4,1,1,3. I have no problem with massive combos, but players should have to work for it. If you don’t like my counter hitting idea because it’s too Tekken/Soul Calibur/Bloody Roar for your liking then find out another way to stop guaranteed combos off the first hit”

I don’t have any examples right now..except maybe one. In MKDA’s Scorpion’s Pi Gua: 4 was way too good because it was safe and on hit guaranteed a hell fire. It also stunned the opponent..allowing to mix up some more. I believe the stun and guaranteed hell fire should only work if it hits on counter hit. Unless it does I think it should a lot less damage and shouldn’t stun at all.

Note that these are just a FEW things that I thought needed to be added. There is a lot more stuff that I typed, and I hope you check it out when you get on the team, Ray.

A couple of things that I don’t think I put that needs to be said.

For the most part low attacks should not be safe at all. If you look at MKDA one of the reasons why the game was extremely broken was because the top characters all had low attacks that were 100% safe. Bo’s d+4, Scorpion’s 4, Reptile’s b+3 and Drahmin’s b+3 are just a few examples. Now a lot of those attacks were only safe because of the back dash cancel, so since you guys are hopefully taking that out those won’t be safe anymore, and the lows that were safe regardless of a BDC or not(rep’s b+3 and bo’s d+4) should be VERY punishable if blocked.

One thing that made low attacks hard to punish in MKDA is the fact that there were no while standing attacks. For example, suppose Bo’s d+4 was not safe in DA. I would still need to stand up and attack you, giving you time to recover. From playing SC2 you know exactly what I mean Ray. When I block low and avoid your low attack I can let go of block and down, and as I rise up I can quickly press a buton to do an attack called a while rising attack. This makes punishing low attacks a lot easier and adds a lot more moves to the game automatically.

Another set of moves that are far too safe are pop up attacks. No attack that launches the opponent into the air should be safe..PERIOD. Crab b+2 = 100% safe, Bo’s u+4 and b+4 in Mi Zong = near 100% safe and there are a punch of other examples. Pop ups should be for punishing unsafe attacks. You shouldn’t have the ability of throwing them out whenever you want. Now I can see if the pop up combo you are doing is a JUST FRAME version of a regular pop up I can see that being safe and even causing guard stun, but not a regular pop up.

One thing I thought that every MK(with the exception of UMK3 with run jabs) doesn’t have is something that EVERYONE in the game has that balances the engine out. Like in SF 3rd Strike everyone has a parry like Bleed exaplined. Soul Calibur has guard impact. Hell, even Bloody Roar has a unique “counter” attack that everyone has, but in MK that “thing” doesn’t really exist, and I hope this changes. Reversal,parries,movement and all that stuff will help out a lot, and most importantly frame advantage, but there should also be something is unique to MK6.

One thing that has me REALLY,REALLY,REALLY excited is the fact that Ed Boon hinted that Midway is going to take Level interaction to a whole new level. Running up walls and flipping off, swinging off poles..omg. I just can’t imagine a fighter with awesome characters,stories,secrets a deep core engine AND level interaction. And to put the icing on the cake..online play. I just REALLY hope Midway gives the MK team time to perfect it. MKDA was far too rushed. I wouldn’t mind waiting till 2005 to play a finely crafted game.

That’s all for now.

Awesome ideas. I've only read half of what you typed, I'm reading the other half right now.

nice ideas.. but i wouldn't agree intiredly on the mk:da was rushed.. they did delayed it.. and everyone got all winy.. so they relased it as soon as they can.. so it was the peoples fault kinda... anyway... the only rushed thing i'v seen was that there was no pit fatal.. thats it... but mk:d should expand on the gameplay only in the devision of combos... the reversals are really not needed.. since you can block and counter attack your enemy already..

anyway.. thats my 2 cents..

MK team, are you guys listening?

seriously, this information is important.

I think there should be more fighting styles...




...[http://home.comcast.net/~sdiabm/]

lol

i think for mk:D they should just take away dat 3 style fighting engine and make a whole new one..cuz their not even doin it rite.. i mean in MK:da most of the fighting stlyes had 8-12 moves..i mean wtf!! thats like an insult to the fighting style..i mean how the hell r u gonna sum up a whole fighting style by just offering 8-12 moves..dats like showing disgrace to it.. (ha..and there were sum wit a lower amount of moves)...lookin at other fighting games on the ps2 and even ps1 there are fighters in other games wit 70-150 moves set..and here in mk:da/mk:d u got fighters wit 8-12 moves per style..thats like usin lower then a quater of wat the style can really do..plus on top of all dat the fighters moved blocky n stiff...they werent flexable at all...and well dat my friends is way im still dissapointed cuz..mk:d seems to have the same shit as mk:da..jesus man the mk crew is so lazy...i wish john tobias (i think dat was his name) would join the crew again..the orginal creator..sigh

I honestly think there doing a good job maybe you guys should make your own games then see how hard it is and how much room you have on a cd all those features can't be added becuz they have the fatalities and all the other stuff etc... they only have so much room to work with be4 the game will run slow they'll need a new system to get that much stuff in the game. Maybe the systems better this time we'll have to wait and see ??

I don't think they are lazy at all. I mean, look at all the work they did for MKD.

I think they just want to keep the game more like a party game, like power stone or something, so it's easy for everybody.

They don't care to make it realistic.

That's what blows.

It's frustrating

Bleed Wrote: I don't think they are lazy at all. I mean, look at all the work they did for MKD. ... It's frustrating

Yeah, they have done a lot of work. The only problem is it's gone into all the fluff, not substance... Hence the thread by the poster formerly known as Neurotransmitter.

Right

Ok I'm a little late to the topic so I apologize. I also apologize if my post fires up another 3 page arguement but it's just some things that I think need to be said.

1) I'm an old school MK fan. Meaning I am 21 and can clearly remember when a little game called Mortal Kombat was released in the arcades, and I was instantly hooked.

2) I in no way ever say that a game sucks and call that a "fact" that is my opinion and my opinion alone.

Now, with those two things out of the way I have to ask those who bash MK:D's fighting engine to please do somehting for me. Define "A deep fighting system".

Let us look at Soul Calibur...

Is that what a deep fighting system is? 3 attack buttons, preset combos, a pick up and play abaility? I invested quite a bit of time learning my favorite characters moves, combos, and defensive strategy.. Only to go up against someone who had never played before did nothing but button mash and was able to pull off 4-5 hit combo's and take me out like I had never played before. Point in fact anybody who can button mash has a good chance of winning. Is that a deep fighting game? If so you can keep it.

Tekken perhaps? Tekken has used the same fighting system since part 1. Very little tweaks have been made at all. As a matter of fact most characters remained reletivly unchanged throughout the whole series. And it appears that part 5 will be no different. Is this a deep fighting game as well?

Maybe even street fighter? Don't make me laugh they have used the same system for well over 10 years only adding little tweaks in with each new game.

MK:DA has 4 attack buttons, preset combos, style changes, style branch combos, faster than tekken's gameplay, and I have/will not ever be beaten by a button masher. While it may not have as many combos as Tekken does per character... come on really it was the first time they had ever used the fighting engine and you are comparing it to games that have used and built upon the same fighting engines they have had for years. Cut Boon some friggin slack. If 5 years from now the system hasn't evolved, then please by all means bash all you want. But don't compar it to games that have had years and years of experience behind one fighting engine. That's just not fair.

And Menthol, sorry if you say a game sucks it is not fact, it is opinion. I for one enjoyed MK:DA much more than I did SC:II or Tekken 4.

OK,

A deep engine has already been explained several times.

The most obvious difference is OPTIONS, then the technical stuff which just makes the game play the best it can be---AKA---(refinement).


Deep games have a ton of options for combat, while MK has very little.

That's just a generalization of the problem.


Let's use the Reversal for example.

In MK what options do you have, you grab a limb High, med or low with the same command.

What can you do after, any regular attack.

That's it, it's the same thing for every fighter that has a reversal.



Now in the other games, you have more refined options like these.

What character are you using

What height is the attack High, med, or low.

What limb did you grab

right arm

Left arm

Right leg

left leg

They all have different animations and properties.

Some of the options are

Throw

Chain throw starter

Combo

Stun hit

juggle hit

And they all depend on what style your fighter has.

See? In just that one area the options are very different.
The DOA Tekken, and VF system are much better.

---------------------------------------------

The Tekken series has changed a lot actually, play Tekken 1, then play tekken 4 and see if you don't see a big change.

Now that the Tekken system is very good, it only needs small tweaks here and there to perfect it.

It doesn't need a huge change because it's already great.

You see now?
------------------------------------------------

The more options you have in a game, the easier it will be for a masher to do better, but there isn't much that can be done about that.


Actually, the fact that it's hard to do anything by mashing in MK is evidence that the system is lacking in options.


I find mashers easy to beat in these games.

They keep doing the same thing over and over, so you just know how to deal with them.

It's not so hard, you just have to know what to do.

Bleed Wrote: Deep games have a ton of options for combat, while MK has very little. That's just a generalization of the problem.

It's only a problem if there aren't a metric ton of people around the world who like it as it is.

Keep MK simple and approachable, that's it's market, that's it's purpose.

-F.

Tomb Raider sells a whole bunch. Enter The Matrix sold a whole bunch. The Hulk sold a whole bunch. What do these games have in common? They're less than triple A titles and yet sold a whole bunch. The casual gamer is perfectly happy playing games their familiar with even if they may not exactly be the best. If money is all that matters to Midway then yeah, MK is perfect. DA was perfect and Deception is better than perfect. But any one of those games I mentioned above could be a triple A title with more effort put into the engine. A solid engine combined with name recognition and you can have your cake and eat it too. It sells millions based on the name and even those who don't care about the name will buy it because it's bliss to play. I don't own any Tomb Raider game, Enter the Matrix, or The Hulk because I don't care about the name. If they were solid games though you can be damn sure I'd own them all. MK is a simple game. Fine. Let it be simple. But that's no excuse for it to stay shallow.

I just watched the new video at gamespot of gameplay.

This game looks just like MKII in 3D, you can tell a tremendous diference in the graphics.

It was cool. You get to see Baraka vs. Baraka in a chess match in the courtyard. Baraka has a realy cool win thisthingisdisabled(Not the crossing of his blades)


We also see scorpions new fighting style Moifah, it looks great also

And you get to see some awsome anmation in puzzle Kombat.

I do believe that this will be one of the greatest games of all time period.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: Tomb Raider sells a whole bunch. Enter The Matrix sold a whole bunch. The Hulk sold a whole bunch. What do these games have in common? They're less than triple A titles and yet sold a whole bunch. The casual gamer is perfectly happy playing games their familiar with even if they may not exactly be the best. If money is all that matters to Midway then yeah, MK is perfect. DA was perfect and Deception is better than perfect. But any one of those games I mentioned above could be a triple A title with more effort put into the engine. A solid engine combined with name recognition and you can have your cake and eat it too. It sells millions based on the name and even those who don't care about the name will buy it because it's bliss to play. I don't own any Tomb Raider game, Enter the Matrix, or The Hulk because I don't care about the name. If they were solid games though you can be damn sure I'd own them all. MK is a simple game. Fine. Let it be simple. But that's no excuse for it to stay shallow.

I was going to leave it alone, but I just couldn't.

There is a signifigant difference between a game that is garbage and sells on name recognition, and a game that succeeds but fails to satisfy a particular market.

Games that suck, don't sell, regardless of what they're called. You chose some pretty poor examples, considering all three of those games were dismal financial failures. TR and ETM so much, that they actually had their development houses yanked of the sequel projects. Is the crappy harry potter platformer flying off the shelves just because people are buying happy meals? I think not.

Mortal Kombat DA is NOT garbage, and it does not suck. Yes, it's not what you want, yes it could be a lot more, but it doesn't NEED to be. I'm sure several hundred maybe even thousand people who bought MK returned it after 3 months because they wanted the things you all post about, but 2 million people do not support a product that is garbage, regardless of name, or prehistory.

Now, Mortal Kombat 4 / Gold. That game, is ass. Utter, utter ass. By your rationale, that game should've been one of the best goddamned purchases on DC simply because it was called MK, and in fact, it wasn't, because plenty of far superior titles (soul cali, namely) were also prthisthingisdisabledent.

Look at MK3, another failure of a Mortal Kombat. How many MK2 players turned their noses up at MK3 and walked out, and didn't walk back until MK5? This board is full of them, because that game sucks. Hell, even Tobias walked out because he had no faith in the product. So you're gonna tell me MK:DA's entire fanbase and popularity is based on the fact that it happens to be called Mortal Kombat, not because it is in fact a good worth playing / buying game? If that is the case, I suggest you investigate the sales figures of Mortal Kombat Advance.

So, I say, yes. Go ahead and talk about features you think MK wants / needs / whatever. Suggest them to the man upstairs, and get the discussions going. If Boon wants to put some of that stuff in, I'm certainly not going to stop him, or even complain (I'd love to see some of those features) but the fact is, DA didn't need it, and De (thus far) doesn't need it to be an enjoyable game.

If MK:DA was just garbage, You wouldn't get a booth full of people at E3 to play a 20% complete build of a sequel, and reviewers on a multitude of sites rating it game of the show. You don't get a forum full of people drooling over themselves to find out insignifigant details like wether Sub Zero has a how many skulls scorpion is wearing on his new outfit. You don't get just as many people fighting to keep the game simple as they're are people fighting to make it complex if it's garbage.

You certainly don't see a devoted group of fans begging for a new CRITICOM do you? How many people still have Tao Feng?

-F.

And actually, I wouldn't be surprised if a complex MK actually turned OFF a lot of fans, because they can no longer just hop on and fuck around and do cool stuff.

How many people hate VF because of overcomplication?

-F.

No offense but that last statement just proves you don't really know what you're talking about. If anything MK:DA is less accessible to people. You have to know the combos and how to set them up in order to do well. That's the only way to successfully play the game. Do you call that accessible? I'm going to take the throw system into context here. Forward, special move button. That's the throw command. Throws are blockable. They're higher risk moves than basic jabs and pokes. Tell me why someone should use the throw in MK:DA? Seriously, can you come up with a use? Basically, your definition of accessibility is an engine where half the moves are useless so people are restricted to four, maybe five moves. Sorry but that's a pretty lame way of defining accessibility. How about defining accessibility as people being able to play with completely differing styles using different moves than their opponent. How about not having to input long string combos if one does not choose to because there are other ways to win the fight? Which definition sounds better? I can bet you really won't answer any question I've asked. You'll come back with another question or rant about something else. Not being able to answer honestly in a debate is evidence against you.

great points tony. tekken and sc2 are what accessibility is all about. for they can be used as button mashers and they have the depth to please the hardcore crowd. mkda, you HAD to learn the moves if you're just a noob who doesn't care and it didn't have the depth to please any of the hardcore crowd. so where is the accessibility you speak of?

Tony hit the nail right on the head with that one.


MK is not very accessible because you can't play well at all unless you take the time to learn the dial combos.


I notice that whenever I play someone that has never played the game before.

They mash the buttons like crazy, but all they get is a max of 1 or a 2 hit combo 90% of the time.

And they can hardly ever even touch me.
I just throw a fireball at them, or wait till they throw an attack, then I hit them.


In Tekken and SC it's the same at first, but you figure out more combos a lot faster than in MK.

Mashers are harder to beat in Tekken and SC it seems to me because the basic attacks are more useful and there are a lot more possible combos, so you can do more just by luck.

But most of the time they still don't really stand a chance against a good player.


I have an easier time learning how to play with a new fighter in the Complex games than in Mk.

In MK I have to be looking up the moves list and in the other games, I can just figure out the combos just by playing the game a lot easier.


That's one of the reasons why I find the other systems more fun.

Why hasn't anybody said any thing about the "Kung Fu Master, Donald Rumsfeld" picture I posted?!

I think it's because people are really concentrating on the subject here.

And there are also a ton of different styles in MKD already.

Bleed Wrote: I think it's because people are really concentrating on the subject here. And there are also a ton of different styles in MKD already.

Lion Claw Technique and Hidden Monkey Hands look the funniest.

Bo Rai Cho should get Coffee Palm and Drunken Temple Boxing