ha ha ha !
i remember now, he was looking for his mother and went to another country.....

aniways that's what happen when u mess with joker.

Batman is, more often than not, the motivation.

Of course, there have been plenty of other goals and catalysts throughout the years. It's very rare for there not to have some allusion to a logic for any of the Joker's crimes.

More like "Illusion of"

And sure, anything he does that directly affects the Bat-Family is for the sake of getting to Bruce, but look at most of his other crimes to see what I mean by illusion. Sure, he may, on occasion, give a reason why he's doing something, but rarely is that reason true.

I mean, as I said, even with "The Killing Joke" his whole "prove to Gordon that anyone could become him after one bad day" turns out to be nothing more than a farce since his reason for believing this (his "origin") is likely a lie.

Bats and Joker also are two rivals that IMO appear rather obsessed with one another a lot more then other "enemies"

Although, I'm sure Lex and Supes is up there as well.

Lex is borderline FoeYay for Superman

That just isn't true, for the most part.
It might not always be evident to people around him, but Joker almost always has an underlying logic.

Joker's motivations in the Killing Joke aren't at all undermined by the truth of his origin -- which was canonized a few years ago in Gotham Knights. His motivation is simply to push Gordon as hard to breaking point as he can, and whether or not his history is explanation or not, his motives follow a strict logic of challenging empathy and/or simple antagonism.

You mean in Pushback? Despite the fact that I doubt that will stay canon for long it still doesn't confirm his entire story, just that his wife was kidnapped and murdered to get him to do the crime, the whole suffering comedian thing isn't confirmed. Hell maybe he already was involved in crime and just didn't want to do THAT job.

Anyways, you're kind of missing my point. Driving Gordon insane isn't a motive, it's an action. He decided to break Gordon for the sake of breaking Gordon. Not so that, say, Gotham wouldn't have a police chief and would be more vulnerable. He committed an act for the sake of the act itself, which is what I've been saying he does.

He doesn't think "I'm going to do this in order for this to happen" he thinks "I'm going to do this".

Those additional details are incidental, but yes.


You yourself already mentioned his motive: he wanted to push Gordon, and prove that anyone could become him.

His failure doesn't dispel his intentions, and also doesn't undermine the associated malice he holds for Gordon, a chief rival to his varying goals.

EDIT: For the purposes of this thread; it's not like Havik is especially chaotic, either. For a guy who's supposedly completely out of control, most of his actions are pretty clean and focused.

There is a certain underlying ogic in the Jokers actions. As the new Red Hood implied he is not as insane as he shows himself to be.

As for Joker vs Havik? No. The Joker is an eccentric psychopath, Havik is a religious zealot: the difference is that Havik conciously chooses the action that lads to maximum entropy and disorder. The Joker acts upon whimsical but sometimes planned ideas.

-the Joker MAY let someone away just because he feels like it even if the situation demands otherwise. For example it is a choice of massacring a bureau.

-Havk would not. Havik would choose the massacre always as it would put an administration in high disorder. Havik has a set goal: entropy at all costs.

God, the things you people argue about...*shakes head*

Havik doesn't belong in the game. The end.

Quan Chi would make more sense. Both are fucking clowns.

Come on, you can't get all literal here, I mean this is MKVSDC and there are alot of differences between Sub and Batman and Superman and Scorp, as a matter of fact, Havik and the Joker fit better together. They both cause chaos, theres NO ONE else that I can imagine actually going well with the joker, point blank.

For you to sit there and accept the fact that Scorp and Superman are a good pairing but Joker and Havik are not, thats a shame. And it's cleary the fact that you don't want Havik in, just say you don't want him in instead of trying to act like he soooo different from the Joker AND REMEBER THEY'LL BE RIVALS, not best buds in the sandbox.

... I accept nothing. And if for a minute you would kindly read instead of see you would notice that there is no hint of antipathy from me towards Havik. As a matter of fact, he is one of the 3 or 5 characters that are actually worthwhile in MK.

Stop putting words in my mouth and stop trying to presume you know my intentions or thoughts, diminutive one.

No, Havik would chose what ever created the most Chaos. He intended to bring Shao Kahn back to life, remember?

It isn't about killing for him, it's about sowing the seeds of chaos, however that goal is best achieved, through life or death.

Yes that would hold merit. I just brought up one example. I do not necessarily see this as antonymic towards my example.

You stated that Joker may let someone live, while Havik would always choose the massacre, which isn't necessarily true of Havik.

I just don't understand why Chrome is really trying to break down how Joker VS. Havik is different but yet we have Sub-Zero vs Batman and Scorp vs Superman, It just astonishes me.

Well, SubZ and Bats have a few parallels drawn between them. Supes and Scorp have one or two things in common.

He is not really saying its impossible, just stating some differences from the two characters since Havik is one of his faves (probably the best new character along with the Hotaru storyline in MKD ).

Sure Bats and Sub and Scorp and Sub have their differences as well, but this is a Havik vs the Joker thread after all.

But hey, I do agree with you that Havik is a nice match for the Joker, probably the best, but like I said, I can see him against Mileena as well. She is chaotic in her own twisted way.

Yeah I was thinking he was saying that it was soooo impossible but I see. Mileena is sick, she's too obessed with Kitana.

yeah!

lmao

Lol, but Quan Chi is....well....he is crazy like the Joker, but Quan Chi comes off as a little more sane, while both the Joker and Havik are all out crazy.

Havik is far from a clown.

He means Quan and the joker I think.