Air combo breakers..

I can see it now.. quick jump aways.. foot smashes from mid air..

I just hope the combo breakers aren't cake to do..

Well for air combo breakers to be of some sort of use there would have to be legit air combos, and I don't see that working in a game where the arenas play such a major role.

I wonder if Midway is going to keep the old reversal system. We all know it sucked ass because it allowed you to get a free combo no matter what as long as it connects and the animation was sloppy. I'm hoping MKD's reversal system works a lot like Bloody Roars. That to me is one of the best reversal systems out there.

SETI1 Wrote:
I didn't say they musn't take ideas of other fighting games. If they don't they're dumb. I am saying that they do not need to copy those fighting games.

That's the thing. Versatile never stated that MKD should "copy" any games. Versaatile stated that MKD needed to incorporate basic elements from other 3D games into it's engine.

All fighting games have one thing in common, they all have pixels fighting pixels, but their own with their individual engine.

What i was trying to say is: Get ideas from others, yes. Living is just about that take it's not a copy. Copy things of others no.

Again, Versatile didn't state "copy".

People say if MK have core engine of bla bla, weapon mode of ble ble, etc, they are saying if we have this we have a perfect MK, So by that way MK didn't have his signature.

MK will not lose it's signature if it incorporates basic elements from other fighters. MK's only signature is it's fatalities, imo. MK was basically like Street Fighter, just with the realistic-looking characters and the fatalities. Street Fighter has the projectile attacks, as well as the martial arts attacks. Seems like they share a very similar engine, from a basic standpoint, to MK's, as well as most of the other 2D fighters of the time. This must mean MK didn't have much of a signature (besides fatalities) from the start.

However. I am pleased they take ideas from other games and incorporate them in MK. But only ideas. I like to play VF and i don't like to see in VF fireballs, deathtraps or other things.

As i can see people are arguing about if MK as this from ..., as that from ..., and that form ... I don't see people saying MK should take the idea and make their OWN concept of the things.

We do not want a VC SC clone. We want a MK with ideas from VC SC etc. Getting the picture?

*sighs*

P.S: This is IMO one of the best threads opened in this forum. We see how good the game is just put our ideas and these contributes more to MK development. Very good thread Versitile.

Versatile has a problem. I voice my he says " I wish I could punch you in the face" how weak is that? Then again I expected no less from a 16 year old. He expects he views to be praised with grace, he flames anyone that counter his.

sorry double post

z:o

Right, adding more basic elements of combat doesn't mean you are copying any other game.

Like someone else said, there is only so much to fighting, so some things need to be in every fighting game, just like punching and kicking.

Well that goes for serious fighters at least IMO. For example, the combo breakers in MKD are a great idea, now how it's done is the iffy part.
It can't be too hard, or too easy.

I'm guessing that MKD will have like 1 or 2 ways to do this, like most other games, but there can be multiple ways to get out of a combo.

Not just the typical reversal, or block.

This is how I would design a combo escape system to make it more original.

I would have special break points where you can do side steps, parries, or evasions like ducking, reversals and block.

For blocking, instead of just holding block like in other games, you would press it at the block point, just like the reversals, then you would be able to just hold it.

Then I would have attack specific breakers.

If you know the last hit, or the chain point = (L) of your opponents combo, you would press that button at the same time they do and you would do a specific attack.

Something like this can work before you are hit, or the second you are hit.

Examples.

Scorpion's style branch combo. 2,2,L,2,3 Pressing L is the same as pressing 2 in Pi-Gua. So you have 2 buttons that you can press to do the counter. L, or 2.

Scorpion taps (L or 2) to throw a straight jab. For a style branch.

You would press (L or 2) at the same time they do and you would duck the punch while throwing a scorpion kick, or some style specific attack that would counter the attack.

Another one is to throw an attack, the second you are hit.

If the (L or 2) punch, connects, you would press (L or 2) the second the hit connects and you would throw something like a straight side kick while stumbling back.





Another one is like what Jet Lee did in Fist of legend when his friend tripped him.

The second the sweep connects (Hapkido) Down+(4), you press (4) and you would do a flip and kick the opponent while falling down, or you might end up standing.

Here is the clip, The Guy sweeps Jet Lee, then Lee does the kick the second the sweep connects.
Hit counter

With these 2 breaker styles combined, you would have 4 optional ways to do a counter.

Tap (L or 2) the when the opponent does, or tap (L or 2) when the hit connects.
Timing for this would be kind of hard, almost like a just frame move in Tekken4 or VF4.

You would have 2-3 frames though, to make it easier to do, so it's not impossible.

Combine that with all the other ways to get out of a combo and you have something very nice and with an original twist.

Not too easy, not too hard, and offers a lot of variety.

I would love to see something like that.

starwinderbeta I never said that was Versitile who worte that. I am saying people in general. What i am trying to tell as there are people who think MK should be equal to others, as i saw in a thread that stated "If MK had the engine of SC ....". That's what i am referring to.

Ok you mentioned Versitile.
When Versitile wrote "There seems to be no hint of an inclusion of gameplay deepening things such as canceling,delaying, a reworked throw system and such", of course when he is saying that he's saying MK has a flawless throw system and that's because we have other games who have a better throw system (VF for example) but if VF (or other) didn't have it, MK throws would be the best. Then we are comparing.

As i said, to introduce threads like this you need a base to compare and Versitile said
"I honestly think if you combine all the bugs and things wrong in every other 3D fighter you will not even come close to the amount MKDA had. I am all for interaction. It looks awesome and will make it more fun, but it wont when the core system is a duplicate of a terribly flawed game. I truly believe Ed Boon believe MKDA's core system was fine. In fact, I remember him saying so in an interview, but he is wrong. If he'd take one look at any other 3D fighting game he'd realize hes wrong"
And as you stated in you own words: "Versaatile stated that MKD needed to incorporate basic elements from other 3D games into it's engine". Well,I call it copy. Basic or non basic, incorporate one of them should be a copy (and i don't mean code) as MK only depends on that.Surelly neither SC or DOA or VF incorporates each core basic elements on each other. They created their own basic elements to make a good fighting game. MK should create their own. That's what i am saying.

Versitile even wrote as his first statement: "There seems to be no hint of an inclusion of gameplay deepening things such as canceling,delaying, a reworked throw system and such". And why we are saying that?
If we look back by the time of MK2 people are saying it was the best of the whole series (arguable) but the game lack all of these things and no one cares about it. When 3D games appeared appeared also new elements for the fighting games. And because MK didn't go in the first line with others for the 3D we are now saying it's bad because it lacks many things that others have. Again the comparing thing.

We are looking to MK now comparing and we are not looking to MK other way. Sure it needs some huge revamp in gameplay but let's give them a chance and don't state "What people don't seem to understand is that as of now the gameplay(the actual fighting)appears to be unchanged". We don't know yet (although i admit it seems to be much like that) so just wait and hope for a better game.

End of story. I hope MKD can give us what we all want with a better gameplay than MKDA and make us happy.

As long as there is no alleged "Tiers" this time and combos are more mixable midway through, allowing for a different breaker requirement, depending on the combo unleashed, then possibly enough change to the engine will have been made. Of course no infinites should be present either.

It'd be cool in a way if you are defending a combo that you need to correctly guess one of 3 possible breaker methods, with each working against different attack sets and not against others and the consequences of your best guess being seen in the form of either breaking the combo and leaving the opponent open for an easy counter, or failing and being wiped. 2 different types may be enough, I haven't put a lot of thought into it to be honest but it would work on a rock/paper/scissors types formula so I know it does sound very "Killer Instinct" ish.

I mean seriously, I don't want a situation where I can only possibly feel confident enough online with 1 or 2 characters (as you would if you were playing VF online). A strength of MK is that it is possible to be strong with all characters and I think this needs to be maintained. In my mind the real online champs will consistently win "random select" tournaments, not just be Sub-Zero or Scorpion hogs.

Frost4584 Wrote: Versatile has a problem. I voice my he says " I wish I could punch you in the face" how weak is that? Then again I expected no less from a 16 year old. He expects he views to be praised with grace, he flames anyone that counter his.

Nope, I don't expect my views to be praised with grace, but I also don't expect ignorance towards my views, and that's what you are showing whether you like it or not. If you HONESTLY think there is nothing wrong with MKDA's system then you're either in serious denial or you don't know what a flawless/excellent fighting game is.

Man, do I want to punch you in the face.

I can play MK: DA just fine. Sure add new features to it and make it better. Just because you have problems with MK: DA doesn't make it fact. Some people got it some people didn't . 16 year old flamer Versatile says man I want to punch you in the face .lol How sad saying that frmo a PC.o btw I never bashed your views, I just respectly disagreed with you. It seems from " I want to punch your face" statement you can't handle someone elses point of view. Keep flaming be bud, I know your going to get what you deserve one day. Your not even worth it.

vers, settle down with the word "ignorant". it's very michael jackson-ish and very scary.

mk's trademark has always been the fatality. but it's gotten to the point of retarded fans wanting mk's other trademark of a shallow fighter because they're so used to it by now. keep in mind mk once competed with sf and it was an all out war. but then capcom started tuning sf2 over and over until it was a deep fighting game. mk on the other hand did not. instead they'd release an mk and work on the sequel right after (save mk3/umk3)... not really giving thought about the gameplay. while namco is also known for that technique, they include a deep enough engine that it doesn't even matter how balanced the game is. mk on the other does not. because mk is not a deep fighter.

in the end, mk's team doesn't tweak the gameplay or make upgrades like that of capcom or sega. and the mk team doesn't make a deep fighter like namco. that's why it's shallow and that's why adults that grew up with fighting games have moved on. why some of you people actually WANT shallow fighting game is beyond me. you can argue "mk has it's own style". but that "style" is shallow and is hated on by fighting game fans. oh, and to the person that said "if you want it to be like other fighters, go play them", we do. that's why mk is being called out on because it doesn't compare to them as a FIGHTING GAME.

Versatile Wrote: Frost4584 Wrote: Versatile has a problem. I voice my he says " I wish I could punch you in the face" how weak is that? Then again I expected no less from a 16 year old. He expects he views to be praised with grace, he flames anyone that counter his. Nope, I don't expect my views to be praised with grace, but I also don't expect ignorance towards my views, and that's what you are showing whether you like it or not. If you HONESTLY think there is nothing wrong with MKDA's system then you're either in serious denial or you don't know what a flawless/excellent fighting game is. Man, do I want to punch you in the face.

Stop being an ass.Everyone has their own opinion.I thought MK:DA was fine and if you didn't too bad.

I still want my damn frosted flakes.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: I still want my damn frosted flakes.

Thank you very much. I owe you a bowl of Cap'n Crunch.

Frost4584 Wrote: I can play MK: DA just fine. Sure add new features to it and make it better. Just because you have problems with MK: DA doesn't make it fact. Some people got it some people didn't . 16 year old flamer Versatile says man I want to punch you in the face .lol How sad saying that frmo a PC.o btw I never bashed your views, I just respectly disagreed with you. It seems from " I want to punch your face" statement you can't handle someone elses point of view. Keep flaming be bud, I know your going to get what you deserve one day. Your not even worth it.

Damn you're typing is skills need some fine tuning homie. Who said anything about being able to play MKDA just fine? I am better than you at MKDA. I'd bet money on that, but unlike you I can see whether a game is flawed or not. You can respectedly disagree with me fine, but how can you? Can't you see there is MANY things wrong with this system. I remember you saying before MKDA is like your favorite game of all time, or was that a different frost? None the less guess what? MKDA is one of my favorite games of all time too, but I can NOW see that there are many things wrong with it. SEVERAL SEVERAL SEVERAL things wrong with it. If you can tell me how MKDA's system is "fine the way it is" then I'll respect your opinion, that is if you make any sense, but if you just say "it's fine the way it is" without any reason im going to consider you someone who knows nothing about this subject, and i'll still want to punch you in the face.

Sad... I read this thread from the beginning and you're bringing many good points on the table and I agree with you on almost everything... but then you ruin it all with this punch in the face stuff.

Really unnecessary and is likely to turn this great thread into a pathetic flaming war.

For the sake of the topic i'll stop. He/She is not worth my time anyway.

I love this interaction idea as long as it's not random. Like everything should be timed so that you can say to yourself "ok the dragon will come out in 3 seconds let me bait him till then" and stuff like that. Randomness would kinda make it bad.

I think what we have here is a very vague understanding of what is good and bad about MK:DA. Every one of these qualities, good and bad, has a high chance of returning in MK:D so I'm going to make it easy for everyone and list all the bad things about the game and all the good things. This way, nobody will get upset because they'd be arguing on different ground. Things like "MK:DA is not good because of blah blah blah" and "MK:DA is good because of blah blah blah" doesn't mean jack if the two parties don't see the same things.

NOTE: I'm not a guru. All the lists are incomplete because I don't know everything.

First, general qualities about MK that don't effect gameplay.

1) Cast with a lot of personality
2) Immersive story
3) Unmatched aura and mythos in fighting game history
4) Recently (ala MK:DA), goofy sound effects run rampant.
5) MK:DA's Neijin animation was corny.
No cool particle effects or something? Why must Kung Lao look like he swallowed a Super Mushroom?

I can't say it enough. This is what makes MK MK. It won't change. MK will never be like another game because of this and that's a good thing. But unfortunately all these good things make a good story, not a good fighting game.

BAD THINGS (listed before by myself and Versatile):
1) Guaranteed combos off first hit.
2) Juggle system with flawed physics engine.
3) Blockable throws.
4) Unduckable throws.
5) Very simple throw commands.
6) No throw breaks.
7) No wakeup game.
8) Easily abusable infinites. (North American version anyway.)
9) Different styles that control basically the same.
10) No attacks that take advantage of movement properties.
11) Jabs hit on the way down.
12) Gameplay is slow and stiff
13) Sidestepping is useless due to universal track
14) Back dash cancel makes for broken characters
15) No frame data
16) Pointless stances
17) Pointless low attacks that do 2% damage
18) Pointless specials that lack variety
19) Bad hit detection
20) Moves has different hit properties depending on position
21) 99.9% of all moves are linear making a 3D engine pointless
22) 90% of weapons are pointless, yet you still take more damagein them.
23) Some moves whether they hit or not leave you at a disadvantage.
For example, if Sub-Zero does his surf throw and you glide against the wall you have the advantage once the animation is done.
24) Not enough moves that track. Everything was steppable.
Let's pretend the universal track didn't exist. Everything would be side steppable making for a boring, BUT balanced game. What we're aiming for is both balance,depth and fun, and I feel a good way to achieve that is to make moves that are not side steppable or are only sidesteppable to the left or right. This would add a new layer of depth. Also not all moves that track should be unsafe, maybe certain moves could be pokes that track.
25) Reversals should not guarantee that much damage.
Reversals should be automatic, and should do no more than 30%,and that's if its a hard reversal. Regulars should do no more than 15%. Animation is also choppy.
26) STUPID glitches.
Combos whiffing half way through (like bo's branch missing half way vs Quan Chi and Mavado). Mavado's 4,4,3,b+3 in hookswords whiffing halfway through sometimes. Characters shifting blocking stance even when they are not being touched(this has gameplay relevance, but I forgot what it is, but it was not a good thing).
27) Every character should have safe moves.
What safe move does Cyrax have? Now compare that to the amount of save moves Bo Rai Cho have and you've got yourself one of the main problems with DA. Everyone should have safe shit, and im not just talking about low attacks. Safe jabs, pokes, specials,etc.
28) No delays and cancels.
Certain moves, particularly unsafe ones or ones that do big damage, should be delayable and cancelable to throw off opponent's timing.

29) Moves should take advantage of movement.
To elaborate on movement properties, each form of movement, be it a sidestep, while ducking, while rising, etc. should have different moves that can be done only during that movement. This will reduce the clunkiness and improve fluidity and depth tremendously.

GOOD THINGS:
1) Interesting concept of three style system.
2)...
I'm out.

Add more to each of the three lists as you see fit. This way everybody is on the same ground and arguing the same thing. If you can't add anything to a list or explain why something that is there doesn't belong there, then maybe you should reconsider why you hold that stance. The game is fun, although valid enough reason to play, is not valid enough to call it a good engine. I like watching the Street Fighter movie. Doesn't make it good. I can't add anything at all to the "good list" of that movie other than Raul Julia's over-the-top performance.

I think all the games has the problem of linearity. Even VF with thei huge list of movments lacks non linearity. I think throws takes the advantage of the 3D.

But i think MK have a few (but only a few) 3D movments.

I can't understand why even with a lot of bad things (the list before as only EDITED:1 good things) people just continuing to play MK and go to forums talking about it. Even if MKD suffers from the same illness of DA we all surely by MKD because not only for gameplay but for the rest also. I surely do. The cast, the modes and the remake of gameplay are filling me up.

In generall i agree with you, let's resolve the bad things. But for me the special movments and the combo system are good things too. But we need more.

P.S. We are talking about things that MK lacks and the other games doesn't (The comparing thing i stated before). I don't see anyone (ANYONE) giveing ideas for a better gameplay that could introduce more depth to the game. We are complaining about things the others have better and MK doesn't. I like to see ideas to new addictions not to copy the others in basic movemnts as already somenone said before.

Tony edit into your list some stuff.

90% of weapons are pointless, yet you still take more damagein them.

Some moves whether they hit or not leave you at a disadvantage. For example, if Sub-Zero does his surf throw and you glide against the wall you have the advantage once the animation is done.

Not enough moves that track. Everything was steppable. Let's pretend the universal track didn't exist. Everything would be side steppable making for a boring, BUT balanced game. What we're aiming for is both balance,depth and fun, and I feel a good way to achieve that is to make moves that are not side steppable or are only sidesteppable to the left or right. This would add a new layer of depth. Also not all moves that track should be unsafe, maybe certain moves could be pokes that track.

Im thinking of more..

I have finally figured out what you guys are talking about. You like the game, but you are all trying to show the faults of the game in hopes that it could be deeper. I am sure that most of you a fighting game fans. Vers is not trying to bash anyone elses thoughts about the game he is coming up with logical ways of makeing the game a better ,deeper fighter. So that it will retain a massive amount of replay value. So what if he is 16 years old. Just by the way he writes he is far more intelligant than most of us that come here and say the game is so good, just fine , perfect. We all know that MK needs some help in fighting game depth as well as better graphics. We should listen and not flame or bash. Help him and tony come up with good points to fix or work on. And if you have a opinion,back it up with why you feel that way. Vers I take back what I said about you in the early posts. I think your head is on straight and you do know alot about fighting games and what makes them good or bad. Also I would like to add that if I had people coming here and spouting out random crap and attacking me every other second I would want to punch them in the face as well. And I am 29 years old. Keep up the good work VERS laters DSB

Versatile Wrote: [...] Not enough moves that track. Everything was steppable. Let's pretend the universal track didn't exist. Everything would be side steppable making for a boring, BUT balanced game. What we're aiming for is both balance,depth and fun, and I feel a good way to achieve that is to make moves that are not side steppable or are only sidesteppable to the left or right. This would add a new layer of depth. Also not all moves that track should be unsafe, maybe certain moves could be pokes that track.

Now i can say you're in the right way. Not criticise only. But give some ideas. That's is what it should be. Pointing the bad things is simple. Give ideas to make it better is another story.

dirtystankbutter Wrote: I have finally figured out what you guys are talking about. You like the game, but you are all trying to show the faults of the game in hopes that it could be deeper. I am sure that most of you a fighting game fans. Vers is not trying to bash anyone elses thoughts about the game he is coming up with logical ways of makeing the game a better ,deeper fighter. So that it will retain a massive amount of replay value. So what if he is 16 years old. Just by the way he writes he is far more intelligant than most of us that come here and say the game is so good, just fine , perfect. We all know that MK needs some help in fighting game depth as well as better graphics. We should listen and not flame or bash. Help him and tony come up with good points to fix or work on. And if you have a opinion,back it up with why you feel that way. Vers I take back what I said about you in the early posts. I think your head is on straight and you do know alot about fighting games and what makes them good or bad. Also I would like to add that if I had people coming here and spouting out random crap and attacking me every other second I would want to punch them in the face as well. And I am 29 years old. Keep up the good work VERS laters DSB

Too late for apologizing man..I already hate you.

Of course im kidding! Man you don't know how much I appreciate that post. It's nice to see not everyone is ignorant about stuff and that people appreciate my shit even tho I can't see rated R movies by myself! Nothing but love for you man..thanks.

So on with the list..time to edit some more TTT. Im not quiet sure if you put this already by Reversals should not guarantee that much damage. I am a firm believer that reversals should be automatic, and should do no more than 30%,and that's if its a hard reversal. Regulars should do no more than 15%. Basically tony, reversals are fine, but work on the animation so it doesn't look choppy and make sure they don't too much damage.

This is dumb, but no goofy "boings" and "swishes". I hate when Im playing MKDA seriously vs somebody and im playing for money or something and I hear those onoxious, childish sounds. What happened to the sweet sound effects in UMK3 and even MK4(even tho that was a bit over the top,too)? When I play MKDA and use a power up or do drahmin's super uppercut im instantly reminded im not playing a fighter that people take seriously. In short, some MKDA sound effects are dope, but a lot of the kiddy sounding ones should go. I know this stupid, but whatever.

Power Up animation looks plain retarded. Why not particles? Like for each character when they power up their element surrounds them shortly until it wears off? For Sub-Zero could ice, fire for scorpion, electricity for raiden and stars for johnny cage.

STUPID glitches. Combos whiffing half way through (like bo's branch missing half way vs Quan Chi and Mavado). Mavado's 4,4,3,b+3 in hookswords whiffing halfway through sometimes. Characters shifting blocking stance even when they are not being touched(this has gameplay relevance, but I forgot what it is, but it was not a good thing). So much more things I could say,but you get the point.

Every character should have safe moves. What safe move does Cyrax have? Now compare that to the amount of save moves Bo Rai Cho have and you've got yourself one of the main problems with DA. Everyone should have safe shit, and im not just talking about low attacks. Safe jabs, pokes, specials,etc.

While on the subject of specials and stuff, did you put on the lists the blatant lack of delays and cancels TTT? Just double checking to see if you did. If not add it pronto lol.

Im done for now. I was thinking to myself just now, since we're making a list of BASIC things that MKDA lacked I think after we are done perhaps we could make a list of INNOVATIVE things that would help out MKD. We'll see if yall are down with this ass we wrap up our "what was wrong with MKDA" list.

I literally pray every night that Ed Boon is reading this thread. Well..maybe not every night..