Chaos,

In my post when talking about the 50/50s in MKD vs. MKA I said (about the 50/50s in MKA): "Not exactly an MKD-type 50/50 but similar."

And again, I am not going to go into details because I've already done so but to emphasize a very important point I will quote myself:

"The bottom line is this, in theory MKA's playability is better but in practice it is not because online play is so bad that it easily outweighs any advantage that MKA's new features might otherwise have given it." and "Just like Air Kombat, Parry, and Wake-Up game, KAK looks good on paper but its execution in the actual game is simply horrible"

Kind of like the car analogy Atari gave, which perfectly illustrates my point.

Now as far as your last point about the lag in MKD vs. MKA, I don't know what else to say except that from my observations as well as reading what other people have said about it and watching some videos illustrating all the ridiculous anomalies that went on in MKA, I came to the conclusion that it (the lag in MKA) was much worse than in MKD. That's just all there is to it. I mean, why do you think there are much less people playing MKA than there were MKD? The MK community now is much less numerous and less vocal and the general feeling of excitement that surrounded MKD is just not present anymore. There is just disappointment. To quote myself again:

"First of all, Midway couldn't balance out a game with 24 characters (MKD), why would they be able to balance a game with 62 + KAKs?? Think about it."

The reason MKD had more people?...

I think it's because we're playing basically the 3rd version of the same game. MKD was huge because it was a well-presented game that brought online-fighting to many, many people for the first time. Many MKD players never played MKDA because there was no online-feature. So for them, everything from the characters, stages, violence, and even things like the 3-style system were new and intriguing at that point. That's on top of the NEW online feature.

So people got into the game to try out these new features, especially online. And they had fun with it and experienced it for a good while. Eventually, it got old to many. MKD wasn't a hugely popular the whole time. It died down, too.

But when compared to MKA (3rd version, same game), those players who played Deception because the features, including online, didn't show up. Also, remember that next-gen was around when this previous generation game was made.

I just think there's too many factors for people to say that there were more people on MKD because it was "a better game". I think it had better timing which allowed it to have greater impact on players. That impact faded regardless.

There has never been a fighting game just FTR that was ever made that wasn't "well balanced" or perfect. Any fighting game with a ridiculous amount of characters will NOT be well balanced, MVC2, MKA, SSBB.....to name a few.

Then there's also the cases with tiers, god, top, mid, low etc in which every fighting game has those.

Chaos, you mean MKA right with more people...you said MKD just wanted to point that out(I believe you were referring to MKA right?)

MKA more or less is the 3rd version of the previous 3D MK's, but more updated, more playable, less glitches to easily abuse for easy-"nooby wins"

As for the amount of characters, since I noticed most gameplay fans aren't aware it was for a few key reasons. A. The storyline in the MK saga which is popular to many fans, so Midway wanted to get EVERYONE in there for the final last gen MK game to end one saga and begin a new one if you will with MK8... B. LOTS of fans bitched, moaned and groaned for every character so Midway said ok it goes well with our plan anyway and lastly C. to allow casual players play as anyone they wish in the MK universe. I have to admit in MKD, not for nothing. The cast sucked....yeah there was cool characters but I wanted more variety like they did with MK4 and MKA honestly, MKDA was alright for newer characters, MKD did a good job with presentation and the FIRST online 3D MK game which excited fans.

No, I meant MKD had more players. I meant to say MKDA when I was talking about the lack of online feature. I fixed it.

MKDA didn't have many players (for very long) because of no online feature.

MKD had a ton of people because of the new online play. Eventually it got old.

MKA didn't have many players because MKD's online feature had already gotten old to many and MKA is basically the same thing.

Ahh, ok I thought you were referring to "characters" my mistake(some people refer to them as players or characters) but I see what you're saying now.

MK:DA has a good amount of fans honestly, but a lot were turned off due to no online play as you said. From a gameplay and overall game point of view, believe it or not MK:DA some people like above both MKD and MKA(gameplay wise MKDA is factually the most balanced). Then there's the case of those casual players "who don't play or care about online play" that just enjoy playing the game normally offline. MK:DA was also hot because of the hype, and it broke the 5 year drought since MK4 which as you know most fans weren't that pleased with.

I do agree with you on MKA's reason or one of them for dying down faster then MKD because MKD was released when next genre wasn't even here yet while MKA was at the climax of last genre which definitely didn't help it's cause(even though it's BC)

I think personally a lot of people aren't fond of MKA because of just the online transition compared to UMK3 and MKD(which still lagged a bit but no where near as bad as MKA) I'm sure everyone can agree to that at the very least.

I don't know. I don't quite buy all the people saying that MKDA is the most balanced. There's no online. That alone would add a ton of elements and I'm sure many techniques. There could be this one thing that nobody's thinking of that would make MKDA online just as broken as the others.

But I guess there's no A/C's or OTG's so maybe they're talking about that kind of stuff.

The online factor only increases replay value and expands competition, but regardless of no online play if you compare all 3 3D MK's MK:DA has the least amount of infinites, glitches and is the most balanced out of just the 3D MK's. I actually believe honestly that the online play (like we've seen in MKD and MKA) would add "elements to abuse" we all have seen what lag can do with certain situations in MKD and especially MKA online. I'm sure those same players that use or try to use it to their advantage would try to do the same in MKDA if there was something to exploit.


Overall, MK:DA is just a better game strickly from a balance wise, infinite and glitchwise point of view. Presentation, characters, no online play and some other elements etc different story. Check went over this a few months back a bit on here and on umk.com, I'll have to ask him again for the amount but he did say that MK:DA had the least amount of infinites etc as did Konqrr vs. MKD and MKA. The one silly thing I admit that stinks about MK:DA is the impale moves that's an easy turtle cheap element....I'm sure if it went online some people would try to just impale and nothing else but a good player wouldn't fall for it.

A game does not have to have online playability to be judged broken or non-broken.

Examples:

-UMK3: Was already broken down to the limit before online play was even out, its legit enough for full high level play.
-Marvel VS Capcom 2: does not have any source of online play but its broken because of unbalanced characters.
- Tekken 1-5
-Soul Calibur 2-3

yeah..

Even SSBB believe it or not, I know a few guys from the General forums as well as outside the site that are hardcore SSBB fans, there's a few infinites in the SSB series or characters super powerful

Well, its most likely going to end up like Melee and receive an update in the players choice (is it called that in the Wii version? Ps2 gots greatest hits, x-box got platinum) version, with most the abusable glitches fixed (something they should of did with the last few MK games they had)

What over powered characters are you talking about exactly? If its because they have infinites then that can be solved by going into areas without walls, besides, infinites are aloud in most games, its just in MKD-MKA they are so easy that they have to be banned in order to play the game seriously. But thats not saying the games are fun to be played at legit high level play.

One of my friends (outside of MKO) that's just a huge SSBB fanatic, he chats and plays with other competitive players and discusses it on certain popular nintendo forums and such. I wouldn't be so sure that Nintendo will fix it unless they release another game all together which won't happen. All they can do really is like you said, perhaps pick a stage where it's not as easy to do but the one thing I remember him telling me are a few things. He can do it on any stage and it's like a Halo 2 scenario with the sword "super jump" it's still a fun game but once more people start doing it, it'll break the game. So, in that respect say SSBB has tourneys down the line I think he'll be banned or there will just be set rules just like they would have to with MKD/MKA tournaments. Obviously no DT's, no KAK etc. Same in SSBB, no specials, no SMASH BALL, no DT like stages like Metroid's stage or Star Fox, items etc...

I'm trying to remember if he said Pit or Ike, one of them he was telling me has an infinite. I believe it's pit has some kind of infinite.....he didn't tell me the difficulty or how it's done I just asked him how it was a week back and he told me about it and he told me well SSBB has the first inifinite. Perhaps it's one of those things that "not many players know about" unless you're hardcore SSBB, but no doubt will get out there in time if not already. I remember malone speaking about this recently in a gameplay thread on MK8 forum and on here...he said any game that has a ton of characters and some kind of "air system" will be broken to a point of infinites thus why even MVC2 has infinites and is broken also. There's also a jiggly puff glitch in which his special move (she gets bigger and just punches everyone off the screen) on 2 stages you can stay big if you do her special in a certain spot. But this glitch isn't THAT big of a deal, other then jiggly puff whoring the whole stage and can be avoided by picking any other stage(at least so far)

Even the last MK's honestly can be played at high level, it's just irritating to some and in MKD for example I think is honestly the LEAST playable because the glitches are just ridiculously easy to do.

MK:DA and MKA are very playable however I still feel. Infinites personally I'm against in any game, unless say it's incredibly tough like UMK3's, some in Tekken(wall) for example where the timing has to be precise. Like you said MKD and even MKA's are easy, more MKD though...I must admit online the only few times I ever got infinited were by pricks/scrubs. One guy once and only once got lucky and nailed me in that stupid kenshi jab, jab infinite....and wayyy back Styles or HB forget which one tried picking Jade against me, beat me one round but I raped them the next few....and of course there's the KAK ones but I'm not even going to count those as that's strickly a noob or scrub tactic...


Now, in MKD pfftt I can't tell you how many times I got fucked with corner trapped infinites, Bo's bs or easy SS/plant throw relaunches into infinites....among the no escape what so ever on 50/50's like Chaos said earlier...you have no options for escape in MKD really other then "lucky 50/50 guessing" which is bad. MKA at least there's more options ya know?

Hmm, I don't really buy that argument. It is true that a certain amount of people may have started playing MKD due to the novelty of online mode (and btw, the 3-style fighting mechanic was introduced in MKDA so at the time of MKD it was no longer new), but if the game wasn't good enough to keep them playing they wouldn't have done so.

In other words, a novel feature like online play can only initially ATTRACT players but it can't KEEP them playing. There is a difference between Attracting and Keeping the players. Let me draw a parallel with picking-up girls. You can come up with a really innovative pick-up line, or you can buy a new sports car. In the world of picking-up girls there is actually a professional term for those, it is Props. You use a Prop to attract a girl to you initially. This is Phase 1 - Attraction. It's a very short phase, from a few seconds to a few minutes.

After you have attracted a girl you have to Keep her with your charm and personality. This is much, much harder than Attracting her. So this is Phase 2 - Keeping. So to illustrate:

Phase 1 - Attract (by using Props like novel pick-up line, flashy sports car, money)
Phase 2 - Keep (using charm and personality, i.e. substance)

So basically you can easily attract a girl but if you have no substance you can't keep her around.

So to go back to the world of videogames, MKD had very good Props (Online mode, a Konquest mode larger than MKDA's, Puzzle and Chess Kombat) and it was successful in Attracting players. But it also had good substance and it was therefore able to Keep them playing for much longer than MKA. As a case in point let me just say that MKA came out 2 years after MKD and currently there are relatively equal number of players for both games on XBox Live.

MKA also had good Props in the form of larger character roster, KAK mode, Air Kombat, Parry and Wake-Up. That was successful in initially Attracting players, but because all of those features were poorly implemented MKA had no substance and it was therefore unable to Keep players.

The parry's and wake ups aren't the best in MKA(no argument or disagreement from me there lol) but I do feel however they're done well enough to use well in a crucial situation in order to get the job done(like say MKD's 50/50 offensive onslaught that you couldn't escape from) you can actually get out of it in MKA but couldn't in MKD.

As for the KAK, it's fun and pretty good however...should NOT be used in regular character competitve fighting(vs another KAK, all good though since it's an match of brokenness anyway in any game featuring a KAK fighting, wrestling or otherwise with options offering you tons of moves and customizations)

The air kombat I agree with and was a bad idea, and I do feel however was not that great.......all they should have done was kept it oldschool MK with just JK's and that's it. I was happy about the ability to jump, get away however just not the "air kombat"