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TonyTheTiger
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Nintendo is comprised of three Japanese words. Nin, Ten, Dou, and when combined it means we kicked the holy shit outta Atari.

03/12/2005 05:15 PM (UTC)
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Chrome Wrote:
Historical note: the katanas power comes from swings, but consider what happens when someone gives that swing to a heavy sword. The most popular disbelief is that the medieval european swords were slow. Incorrect. They were just as fast as katanas, simply becouse the same swing was added to their striking power (again, their weight gives the additional damage), but the pause between strikes are significantly longer (calculated 0,5 secs in full plate armor).


Most European swords have a different center of gravity than Japanese ones. It's not actually the swing of the katana that does damage but rather the slicing motion of the sword after contact. The sword is designed like a giant razor blade so once contact is made, the real damage is done by pulling the sword back toward you. Take a shaving razor and smack it on your face. It'll hurt but won't do a whole lot of damage. Now slide that razor side to side. You'll be using a whole lot of tissue paper after that.

European swords have a center of gravity located closer to the tip of the blade because that's where the most damage is done. If you swing a bastard sword or claymore the tip is the furthest point from your arm so it's going to be traveling the most distance (think circumference of a circle) and end up doing the most damage because of that force. Thrusting is more efficient with a European sword than a Japanese one, too. An efficient rapier user can strike three death blows in approximately one second. The bastard sword is probably the most well rounded in terms of slicing, stabbing, and cleaving potential but the focus of a sword is determined by it's design. A scimitar is going to be great at just hacking things to pieces but you really can't do much else with it.

You're right that there are levels of realism in the way a weapon needs to be used in a game. I get the feeling that in Deception most weapons were based on a "universal" style of attacking. But realism can also be taken too far. In real life a guy using nunchaku is not going to be able to beat a fully armored samurai and an unarmed fighter is not going to be able to block a blow from an axe but that's where suspension of disbelief comes into play. Otherwise the game would be really broken. Some levels of realism need to be sacrificed for a better game.
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Chrome
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03/12/2005 05:39 PM (UTC)
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Yup.

But again, there were exceptions. the unitbreaker did not had it's gravital point on the tip of the blade (since the one I own is 190 cm long!!!) but it had a strenghtening line of metal enbedded into the blade instead of the blood channel. the long blade would became more breakable becouse of the lack of stabilisators.

Now, the problem is that the european weapons could deliver a death-blow in two or three strikes in battle, simply becouse if they were used against unarmored opponents. That is why I like MKD's arrmorhappy designs. It would look really dumb if a claymore in MK would do so much damage that it's most powerfull combo would contain only three hits.

I say, that MK should use the traditional gothis blades should european weapons come into the game. Otherwise stay with the oriental ones.

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Versatile
03/12/2005 08:05 PM (UTC)
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I think that Weapon Kombat and Hand to Hand Kombat should very different from each other, but balanced in enough so that if i change and you dont feel like chaning to ur weapon as well, it is still a balanced fight. Weapons should have distinct advantages over hand to hand, but Hand to Hand should also have distinct advantes over Weapons. Some examples would be that you take more damage in weapon stance(that was just fine in both MKDA and MKD) and that Weapon throws do MUCH more damage and have a smaller escape window(less amount of miliseconds to escape them), but Hand to Hand would have the better pokes and customs. Things like that. This can also change from character to character. For example Cage's weapon stance may have even better pokes than his regular stance(being nunchaku and all).

Also, the weapons should have 3 major categories, finesse(quick pokes,great priority,decent juggle potential,bad throwing), Force(great move properties,lots of guard crush moves,best throws of all weapons) and All Around(a decent mix of everything). I'd go more into this, but I am running a little late. I'll post more later.
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Chrome
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03/12/2005 08:09 PM (UTC)
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weapon throws? Err...rather powerfull manouvers that knocks your opponents down. I can't imagine how you throw someone with a claymo-re in real life. However the bashing should be good.

there is a manouver we use with the claymores: reverse the grapple on it, holding the weapon on his blade and using the baskets or the cross-irons as military picks. Now that should be cool.

www.middleages.hu
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Versatile
03/13/2005 04:22 AM (UTC)
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When I say weapon throws i just basically mean grapples that give you guaranteed damage if not broken and hits high, i dont neccesarrily mean literally throwing you with their weapon. Here's an example.

Kori Blade.

Throw 1 - Sub-Zero swings his kori blade at your knees and knocks you to the ground whaling in pain. This throw would leave them grounded for some wake up. - 34 damage

Throw 2 - Sub-Zero kicks the opponent high into the air and as they land he slams them down with his Kori Blade. - 40 damage.

Those are both animations that could happen after the initial grapple animation. Notice how both of them dont involve Sub-Zero throwing them at all. Also, besides weapon throws doing way more damage, the range for the weapon throws is TWICE the range of a regular throw. Perhaps with Weapon Throws they lunge forward when grabbing and with hand to hand throws they just throw their arms out to grab.

By the way, I don't the bar for MK7 should be 100 like it was in MKDA and MKD. I think since throws will be doing massive damage along with single power strikes that the matches would end far too quickly and easily, and would leave players enough room for trial and error. I think the bars for MK7 shoud be 300% or so. What do you guys think?
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KSwiss21590
03/13/2005 05:07 PM (UTC)
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i just read the first post and it looks similar to how doa 3/ultimate 2 is, i want mk 7 to be like that imo
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MENTHOL
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03/14/2005 03:08 AM (UTC)
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I hope to GOD this thread stays stickied until the fucking game comes out. DO NOT let this thread go MKO staff. In the rubble of scrubs making generic ass threads, I was quite happy to see this thread stickied when I first got here.

Anyway, wow, where the fuck to begin. Throw escapes and an oki game are a must. No more dial-a-combos. Yeah I know it's an MK tradition and they worked rather well in UMK3, but I'd rather they drop the BS. MK has always had a hard time making a propper ground combo system. I might get flamed for this but instead of bothering with the ground combo system, I say they just focus on launchers. That's always been MK's strength anyway in the combo department regardless of how they even made the game. MK's air game has always been the most memorable part for me and I say they put focus on that. It's obvious their ground combo game sucks. It has sucked and will continue to suck. So drop it. They should focus more on an actual ground GAME before they even begin to start with ground combos. MK Team: Put the combo game in the air and make height/weight accordingly to the characters. That is all. Plus, it's 2005. Not 1995 when dial-a-combos were ok. And juggle escapes like in SC2 would work well to avoid infinites.

The ground game is already covered in this thread.

The three style system needs to go. Well, actually, it doesn't NEED to go. But like someone already mentioned, they don't focus enough on each style. They just throw in a bunch of characters, give them a bunch of moves (pretty much all worthless), and we get a broken ass game. So I agree there needs to be less characters if they're going to continue with this three style thing. Make them focus more on each character and style than just throwing a bunch of shit against the wall and hoping it sticks.

Lastly infinites need to go. it's just getting sad. Infinites are my main beef. There's no fun in them at all.
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TonyTheTiger
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TonyTheTiger - Forum Director

Mortal Kombat Online - The Ultimate Mortal Kombat Experience
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Nintendo is comprised of three Japanese words. Nin, Ten, Dou, and when combined it means we kicked the holy shit outta Atari.

03/14/2005 07:35 AM (UTC)
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The biggest problem with dial-a-combos is that you're essentially taking all control away from the players (attacker and target) which having control at all times is kind of the point of a fighting game. If I'm going to hit attack 1 for whatever reason I don't want the game basically telling me that I have to use attack 2 next. I want to decide. If they want to throw in a few strings for good measure, fine, but don't force everyone to sit there and play Simon. 1,2,4,1...3,3,2,1...4,4,3,4... That's just laziness because it's easier to program a bunch of predetermined combos than apply proper frame advantage and move properties to each individual move which, if done well, should in theory allow the player to "feel out" his own ground combos. A stun, a freaking stun alone will guarantee extra damage. That's a combo right there and I didn't have to be forced into it with no other options at my disposal.

So Menthol is right. The design team needs to stop trying to "make" a ground game. Once they make all the moves useful by applying good frame data and properties, the ground game will fall into place by itself.

About defenseless juggles like Tekken vs. air control like Soul Calibur, a long time ago I thought of a mix between the two. At first, during a juggle you don't have control but if you do an air recovery command your character slightly adjusts his position and you then have air control. The air recovery command would have to be done right at the point of impact of the next attack in the juggle or shortly after. Then you can have moves that if done during a juggle have an additional property of resetting the air recovery meaning it takes away air control. That way you could end up with some back and forth fights between keeping the juggle going or ending it.
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MENTHOL
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03/14/2005 09:09 AM (UTC)
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Back and forth fights in the air would be sooooooo badass. I've always wondered why Tekken hasn't done that yet either. You're getting juggled in the air, your feet are at the top of your opponents head, why shouldn't you be able to kick their head while you're being juggled? it wouldn't do much damge. Just a simple breaker to get back on the ground. Keep in mind if it's an out of reach juggle and your feet or hands are nowhere near your opponent while you're in the air, you shouldn't be able to break it. But if they are, you'd be able to break the juggle. You'd have to havd precise timing to do it and the same for the juggler. If you're juggling, you can't just hit 1,2,2,4. You have to time each one to avoid getting the juggle broken. Both sides would be playing mind games during it and would be a hell of a lot of fun.

Dead weight juggles are getting less appealing as time goes on in fighters. Even though I think SC2 is garbage, i did like the air juggle evades. Now let's take it to the next level and add some offensive options for the person being juggled.

And yes I agree with you about 1,2,1's and 3,2,4,4's on the ground. Simple combos. But should be frame savy. You shouldn't have to eat a whole ground combo. Nor should the generic combo breakers in MKD exist. Just give the combos some frames so you only eat a couple hits and can block the rest or mid-parry it. I mean come on it's so simple.

I like the ideas everyone is giving. grin
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Sub-Zero_7th
03/14/2005 08:29 PM (UTC)
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MENTHOL Wrote:
Back and forth fights in the air would be sooooooo badass. I've always wondered why Tekken hasn't done that yet either. You're getting juggled in the air, your feet are at the top of your opponents head, why shouldn't you be able to kick their head while you're being juggled? it wouldn't do much damge. Just a simple breaker to get back on the ground. Keep in mind if it's an out of reach juggle and your feet or hands are nowhere near your opponent while you're in the air, you shouldn't be able to break it. But if they are, you'd be able to break the juggle. You'd have to havd precise timing to do it and the same for the juggler. If you're juggling, you can't just hit 1,2,2,4. You have to time each one to avoid getting the juggle broken. Both sides would be playing mind games during it and would be a hell of a lot of fun.

Dead weight juggles are getting less appealing as time goes on in fighters. Even though I think SC2 is garbage, i did like the air juggle evades. Now let's take it to the next level and add some offensive options for the person being juggled.

And yes I agree with you about 1,2,1's and 3,2,4,4's on the ground. Simple combos. But should be frame savy. You shouldn't have to eat a whole ground combo. Nor should the generic combo breakers in MKD exist. Just give the combos some frames so you only eat a couple hits and can block the rest or mid-parry it. I mean come on it's so simple.

I like the ideas everyone is giving. grin


Even mine? wink

Your ideas sound pretty good. What about the jumping and aerial stuff of that sort?
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Versatile
03/14/2005 09:16 PM (UTC)
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oh shit son it's menth! what up man! where you been?

Anyway yeah, I agree that everyone has great ideas.
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MENTHOL
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03/14/2005 09:25 PM (UTC)
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Playing way too much Tekken 5. Needed a breather.
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FLSTYLE
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03/14/2005 10:55 PM (UTC)
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Nice ideas so far, i'm still waiting for Tekken 5, damn my Europeaness sad
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KombatAniZe
03/15/2005 03:32 AM (UTC)
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PLEASE HAVE KINTARO IN THE NEXT GAME!!!!!!!!sadsadsadsad

Please refrain from writing your replies all in caps. Thanks.

tgrant
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MENTHOL
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03/15/2005 01:11 PM (UTC)
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Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:


Even mine? wink

Your ideas sound pretty good. What about the jumping and aerial stuff of that sort?


I agree that also nees to return. Like I said, their ground game sucks. Bringing back the aerial game would be hella tight. They really need to bring it back to their 2D roots. Not saying it needs to be 2D or exactly play like 2D. When Namco went fully 3D with Tekken 4, it was just a flop. So they mixed T3/TTT and T4 for T5 and it's good. MK needs the same treatment I think. Keep it current with 3D, but bring back alot of it's 2D roots. Faster and more aggressive.

I don't know I suck at explaining this shit while others can put together sentence by sentence of exactly what's going on in their head. Just imagine MKD with UMK3 like gameplay with a good side step system, more of an aerial game, ditch the dial combos, make projectiles faster, an oki game, Tekken frames for ground combos, 8 piece CHICKEN dinner, throw reversals, a one year account to netflix, lol you get the idea.

Oh, there is one thing I did like in Tekken 4 and that's position change. Walls are pretty much a given from here on out and with MK going to faster gameplay (in my mind anyway), position change could make it intense. There's a lot left to do in the wall game of fighters and position changing would work well in MK. The more I think about it, the more MK should focus on reversals for ALL situations.

But an oki game keeps coming back to mind. There's a lot of cool stuff in MK that hasn't been fully realized because of stupid system. Just imagine Sub ground freezing over and over while you keep quick rolling on the ground to avoid it. As you have frame advantage by rolling, you have to keep rolling until your in a safe situation to attack or get up at the very least. This is the fast gameplay I'm thinking of. Just non stop fast gameplay UMK3 strived on and new boundaries 3D MK hasn't reached yet. Everything has a consequence in the game. Alright I'm rambling. Peace.
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Sub-Zero_7th
03/15/2005 10:30 PM (UTC)
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MENTHOL Wrote:
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:


Even mine? wink

Your ideas sound pretty good. What about the jumping and aerial stuff of that sort?


I agree that also nees to return. Like I said, their ground game sucks. Bringing back the aerial game would be hella tight. They really need to bring it back to their 2D roots. Not saying it needs to be 2D or exactly play like 2D. When Namco went fully 3D with Tekken 4, it was just a flop. So they mixed T3/TTT and T4 for T5 and it's good. MK needs the same treatment I think. Keep it current with 3D, but bring back alot of it's 2D roots. Faster and more aggressive.

I don't know I suck at explaining this shit while others can put together sentence by sentence of exactly what's going on in their head. Just imagine MKD with UMK3 like gameplay with a good side step system, more of an aerial game, ditch the dial combos, make projectiles faster, an oki game, Tekken frames for ground combos, 8 piece CHICKEN dinner, throw reversals, a one year account to netflix, lol you get the idea.

Oh, there is one thing I did like in Tekken 4 and that's position change. Walls are pretty much a given from here on out and with MK going to faster gameplay (in my mind anyway), position change could make it intense. There's a lot left to do in the wall game of fighters and position changing would work well in MK. The more I think about it, the more MK should focus on reversals for ALL situations.

But an oki game keeps coming back to mind. There's a lot of cool stuff in MK that hasn't been fully realized because of stupid system. Just imagine Sub ground freezing over and over while you keep quick rolling on the ground to avoid it. As you have frame advantage by rolling, you have to keep rolling until your in a safe situation to attack or get up at the very least. This is the fast gameplay I'm thinking of. Just non stop fast gameplay UMK3 strived on and new boundaries 3D MK hasn't reached yet. Everything has a consequence in the game. Alright I'm rambling. Peace.


Thanks for your input. I just want you to keep in mind that I'm simply a guy who is trying to learn as much as he can on this stuff. As much as I love MK and such, it needs vast improvements and I'm sure you'll definitely agree with me there.

The oki example you have is quite interesting and sparks a memory of an idea regarding escape type moves like backflips and rolls.

I really liked the way the aerial stuff was in MK4/MKG. I know there'll be some who call it unrealistic and stuff like that, but isn't blasting ice at an opponent from your hands unrealistic as well? Maybe I didn't choose the best of words though I'm sure you know what I meant. I recall reading about different weight stuff for the characters which is a good idea. For example, characters like Jax and Bo' Rai Cho would have shorter jumps compared to people like Frost and Kitana who will have higher jumps. I think fluidity should also play a role into the aerial properties as well as recovery time.

Have you ever played Super Mario Bros. 2? If so, do you remember how different the characters were in terms with their jumps? Perhaps something similar like that could be applied.

Anyway, I didn't mind the sidestepping system aside from when they sometimes sidestep really quickly as some kind of counter move which I find to be annoying. If they just took that out, then it'd be better.

As for the combos, I don't mind the dial a combo system as long as there is good customization. However, I'd like to know what you are thinking as a solution to the combo system. If you could provide examples of games that have this, I might be able to have a better understanding.. Ultimately, I want there to be a lot of customization with combos with only some amount of preset combos...you know, basic ones like 1, 1, 4 or something of that sort..
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Versatile
03/15/2005 11:40 PM (UTC)
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To be 100% honest Im not really feeling this weight difference and jumping distance differential...yet. Right now Midway needs to conecentrate on a good foundation. There's two options in my mind that Midway could do.

The 3D Approach - Continue on with where MKDA/MKD were going, but add in frame advantage/disadvantage, oki, 2 throws per character(each having a different escape button), guard crush, move properties(moves that go over,under and through certain kinds of moves. Also, moves that auto step.), deeper(and unique) weapon combat, character balance, defensive options(a GOOD parry,reversal and defensive movement), a USEFUL back dash, better move animation and devotion to just one hand to hand style instead of two. Basically to make a fighter that's deep enough to have at a legitimate fighting game tournament(theres a reason why MK hasnt been at a serious tournament like Evolution, ECC or Super Battle Opera in YEARS). Also not to get rid of the two shining spots of MKD, Chess and Puzzle Kombat. Note that with a better FIGHTING ENGINE that Chess Kombat will automatically become an even more fun game.

The Fusion Approach - Totally forgetting that MKDA and MKD ever existed(besides storyline) and going back to the MKT days. Keep the aerial kombat, aggressor, run jabs, the overall speediness of the MK3 series,etc, and add in the things needed to make a good 3D fighting game(see above).

Now the whole fusion approach would be harder and NOT NECCESSARILY better, but it could be pretty awesome is executed PERFECTLY. While I certainly wouldnt mind choice 1 either.
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krackerjack
03/16/2005 01:15 AM (UTC)
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I haven't really contributed much here because most of what I want has been summed up a lot already, and this is pretty much it:

Versatile Wrote:

The 3D Approach - Continue on with where MKDA/MKD were going, but add in frame advantage/disadvantage, oki, 2 throws per character(each having a different escape button), guard crush, move properties(moves that go over,under and through certain kinds of moves. Also, moves that auto step.), deeper(and unique) weapon combat, character balance, defensive options(a GOOD parry,reversal and defensive movement), a USEFUL back dash, better move animation and devotion to just one hand to hand style instead of two. Basically to make a fighter that's deep enough to have at a legitimate fighting game tournament(theres a reason why MK hasnt been at a serious tournament like Evolution, ECC or Super Battle Opera in YEARS). Also not to get rid of the two shining spots of MKD, Chess and Puzzle Kombat. Note that with a better FIGHTING ENGINE that Chess Kombat will automatically become an even more fun game.


Just the basics.

I think what's really important is just move properties and fluid animation at this point. Add a few launchers, and combos will make themselves.

Although i've been thinking about the fist MK game. There were no real juggles. I think it would be quite interesting to have a game based soley on ground combat, with no lauchers. If the three styles remained, and each were well thought out with moves having various properties, and each had the living hell play tested out of them, we'd have a really interesting game.
It completely removes the 'get your opponent in the air then hit him with you biggest juggle a few times to win the match' element that can get a little tedious in fighting games, and replaces it with more strategy - especially seeing as how there's three styles to draw from.

Maybe this is far too much to ask at this point. The bare basics will suit me just fine.

Oh, one more thing, is that I was just thinking I don't think i've ever seen a true crouch-sidestep (with moves leading out of it) in a game before. Could be something interesting to play around with.
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1TruKing
03/16/2005 03:19 AM (UTC)
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KombatAniZe Wrote:
PLEASE HAVE KINTARO IN THE NEXT GAME!!!!!!!!sadsadsadsad

Please refrain from writing your replies all in caps. Thanks.

tgrant


I agree cuz like kintaro in the game would automatically make the gameplay better. Oh wait uh nevermind this is the gameplay design thread not the I want my favorite character in the game thread.



krackerjack Wrote:
Just the basics.

I think what's really important is just move properties and fluid animation at this point. Add a few launchers, and combos will make themselves.

Although i've been thinking about the fist MK game. There were no real juggles. I think it would be quite interesting to have a game based soley on ground combat, with no lauchers. If the three styles remained, and each were well thought out with moves having various properties, and each had the living hell play tested out of them, we'd have a really interesting game.
It completely removes the 'get your opponent in the air then hit him with you biggest juggle a few times to win the match' element that can get a little tedious in fighting games, and replaces it with more strategy - especially seeing as how there's three styles to draw from.

Maybe this is far too much to ask at this point. The bare basics will suit me just fine.

Oh, one more thing, is that I was just thinking I don't think i've ever seen a true crouch-sidestep (with moves leading out of it) in a game before. Could be something interesting to play around with.


I was thinking along similiar lines. Just the basics is whats needed now. We've already seen what happens when they decide to REVOLUTIONIZE the game engine. I just had a vision of midway attempting to implement everything in this thread and producing a fighter that makes fight club look like game of the year.

MK 1 did have juggles. They were somewhat limited in the middle of the screen but there has always been corner juggle combo's. I seem to recall an infinite in the corner on mk 1. I know there was one on the home version and possibly the arcade on some versions at least.

The jump difference thing isn't really that big of a change in fact it's an old idea. SF 2 had significant difference's even in the original game just with character jumps. Dhalsim was in the air much longer chun li jumped further zangief was short and slow etc... it wouldn't be that difficult to pull off really.
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the_shirt_ninja
03/16/2005 08:33 PM (UTC)
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About the Anti-Aerial/Anti-Juggle stuff, has anyone of you played Bloody Roar? The first part in particular? That game has a kick ass Anti-juggle system you can use while in the air. Very similar to what MENTHOL said, like...having your feet close to the opponent's head and being able to kick him. Bloody Roar has that, and it makes the game even more fun.
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Versatile
03/16/2005 08:47 PM (UTC)
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Oh yeah man..Bloody Roar Primal Fury(an extended version of Bloody Roar 3 basically) had air parrying, so no juggle could last for too long. Basically if you pressed buttons while in the air your guy kind of recover i the air and be able to block. Bloody Roar Primal Fury was a great game. Not deep at all, but had most of the essentials.

Yugo players unite!
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MENTHOL
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03/17/2005 01:26 AM (UTC)
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LOL I might have to rent it just to see it.
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the_shirt_ninja
03/17/2005 04:15 PM (UTC)
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Versatile Wrote:
Oh yeah man..Bloody Roar Primal Fury(an extended version of Bloody Roar 3 basically) had air parrying, so no juggle could last for too long. Basically if you pressed buttons while in the air your guy kind of recover i the air and be able to block. Bloody Roar Primal Fury was a great game. Not deep at all, but had most of the essentials.

Yugo players unite!


Primal Fury was alright. It was fun, but it didn't make me go "OMG this game is so awesomezzZZ!!!11" like Part 1 did. Plus, in Primal Fury, they really ruined Alice, all her good stuff from Part 1 was gone.

But maybe Bloody Roar-like air recovery moves would be too "flashy" for MK, which still tries to be kind of realistic (hey calm down already , I said KIND OF), with all those fighting styles and stuff.

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Kwizard
04/03/2005 01:45 AM (UTC)
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I don't know if anyone said this already, I just found this thread.

Mortal Kombat needs Directional commands!

Diagonals... Thats how there will be more moves in the game.

What 3d fighting game do YOU know that doesnt have diagonals?

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Sub-Zero_7th
04/03/2005 06:37 AM (UTC)
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Kwizard Wrote:


I don't know if anyone said this already, I just found this thread.

Mortal Kombat needs Directional commands!

Diagonals... Thats how there will be more moves in the game.

What 3d fighting game do YOU know that doesnt have diagonals?



Yeah, I think it was already mentioned in this thread.

Personally, I don't like the idea of having things like DB + 1 and such because I feel things get to messy and complicated. I know there are those who don't feel that way, but that's just how I feel. If it's something like UB + 1 in which you do like an aerial punch or something, that's fine. But other than something like that, I wouldn't want it.
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