I'd have to disagree with MK7 playing like DOA. The recovery time in DOA is horrendous. Hence, having it's play mechanics implemented in MK7 would slow the gameplay pace down dramatically. I wish to MK7 play like MK. Not Tekken or DOA.

Are you talking about the recovery for hits or on blocks?

I haven't noticed this horrendous delay you are talking about. I think DOA plays pretty fast.


This is what I said-----------------------------------------------

I see MK as more DOA ish, like when you kick someone, they should fly far like in the 2D MK's and The DOA games.
Fighting should be fast and smooth = Keep some of the strings, but have it work like in DOA where you have to be stunned for them to be less breakable NOT unbreakable. ( The critical status )
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1 = Hit reactions being even more exaggerated / powerful looking. They already have this, just add more to it like special wall slams or wall bounce stun animations. Maybe for a sweep, instead of doing 1 flip, they could do 2 flips. The animators at MK are pretty good at this.

2 = Fast and smooth fighting, add a stun to enable some short MK style strings. Games like Tekken are more poke happy and DOA is more string happy if you take out the reversals. MK is heavy on the strings so a DOA critical status type stun would enable there to be MK style strings but keep them from getting too over used at the same time.

Different types of attacks would have different effects during the critical stun the same as in DOA. But basically it would be like doing a VF or DOA style juggle while both fighters are standing. Allowing for some strings that are normally blockable to be unblockable.

There could be a stun meter so you don't go in to the stun so easily.

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How would what I posted slow the game play down?

Give me an example in DOA so I can see it for my self.

Also, can you explain how you want MK to play like MK and not like other fighters.

Give me some details so I know what you mean.

I'm not about to get into an argumentive debate, but I'll just state why I DON'T want to see MK playing like DOA & that's that. In DOA a character gets poked & it takes them an eternity to recover. The reason why DOA moves so fast is because the damage detections take off some much damage that a match is over with in a flash. Besides the movements in MKDA & MDA are fairly fast as opposed to DOA. We're talking about the game that inspired the DOA series then copying it?

Now if you're taking about actionwise, then that's an understatement. MK7 could use dash/run reflexions (I don't know why Midway decided to remove them in the first place) not to mention better frame advantages & that could brush up the pace of action quite a bit. Also implementing wake-ups attacks doesn't necessarily mean MK7 has to copy DOA or Tekken in order to be decent. Wake-ups are a trait that are typical in just about all 3d fighters. Midway should bring by the reversal system from MKDA but make it more defined (played nothing like DOA's).


IMO comparing MK to DOA is like comparing KI to VF. Two totally different games. Even BR makes for a better comparison to MK than DOA. This is just my opinion though. I'm not trying to debunk yours, but I don't believe that MK7 needs to play like DOA in order become successful.

Hmmm, I don't think you totally understood what I meant by using DOA as an example.

I'm not making a comparison, this game is like this one, it's more of using one game as an example to expand on the ideas of another.


About what you posted now.

In DOA a character gets poked & it takes them an eternity to recover.

You are talking about the critical status. in DOA you can defend against that with a reversal.

To keep MK from using DOA crap reversal system, they could implement a tec. recovery. If you tap block almost instantly when you take a stun hit you will recover faster.

The number of attacks that cause a critical stun could also be lowered and have some only work as counter hits.

Another way to fix that problem is with a stun meter.


The reason why DOA moves so fast is because the damage detections take off some much damage that a match is over with in a flash. Besides the movements in MKDA & MDA are fairly fast as opposed to DOA.

I disagree, the action in DOA is very fast because of the animations and fast combos. DOA's animations are faster, recover faster and look cooler than the ones in MKD.


We're talking about the game that inspired the DOA series then copying it?


MK wasn't the main inspiration for the DOA series, they liked the very basic Concept of multi tired stages and used it, making it much better than in UMK3 or MKD. DOA was more inspired by Virtua fighter than MK.

Now if you're taking about actionwise, then that's an understatement. MK7 could use dash/run reflexions (I don't know why Midway decided to remove them in the first place) not to mention better frame advantages & that could brush up the pace of action quite a bit.

Right, but why limit themselves to that? There are a lot of different ways to make the fights move faster and flow better.

Also implementing wake-ups attacks doesn't necessarily mean MK7 has to copy DOA or Tekken in order to be decent. Wake-ups are a trait that are typical in just about all 3d fighters

Wake up attacks are basic to pretty much every 3D fighter so they have to copy the basic idea because it's already been done.

How they do it is what will make it different. for example In other fighters you just have the basic sweep or round house wake up attacks.

MK could have not just 2 but a ton of attacks. like when Lei Wulong is laying down or Brad Wong from DOA3. they could even use their powers as wake up attacks.

That's copying in the sense that they have "Wake up attacks" but it can still be original in the manner it's executed for MK.

Midway should bring by the reversal system from MKDA but make it more defined (played nothing like DOA's.

I agree they need to have some reversals in the game. They should not work like in DOA that's a given, the one in MKD is terrible also so they shouldn't stick with that either. If I were to compare it to another game, I'd say something like in VF4, Tekken5, or SC2.

They could also have different ways to do reversals but the basic idea from the other games is already there. You do a move when your opponent attacks and you reverse them.

The reversal in MKD was closest to the ones in Tekken, only that in Tekken it's much better designed.


IMO comparing MK to DOA is like comparing KI to VF. Two totally different games. Even BR makes for a better comparison to MK than DOA. This is just my opinion though.

That's not what I was saying. I think BR is closer to MK also. I was using ideas from DOA as an example of ways to improve on stuff in MK. Use the basic idea and make it Fit to MK, that's all.

The similarities are there though.
1= A powerful kick in DOA can send you flying across the screen.
A Round house in the old MKs will do the same.

MK's hit animations are similar to the ones in DOA in the way that they are over the top.

MK could make better use of this to enable more custom combos.


2= If you don't use the reversal in DOA during a Critical stun, you are unable to block a string of attacks.

In MK you have unbreakable combos that are pretty much a staple to MK games now.

Using the stun is a way to get rid of too many unbreakable combos but still allow you to do some once in a while. It's a way to make the idea better but not totally eliminate it.


Multi tired stages DOA has them and MK has them.

They are better in DOA, MK could use that for inspiration and take it a step further making them better than in DOA.

Examples

1 = many levels to a stage, including stairs, and small ledges, undulated floors. This is where the DOA stages are better. They are more realistic.

2 = Have more interaction = Tao Feng is a good example for this. You can break a lot of stuff around the stage.

3 = Have interaction with living obstacles around the stage = a crowd that pushes you back in to the ring like in Def Jam FFNY.

Have a monster be a death trap = like a dragon that attacks you if you get too close. The dragon could be the stage fatality = it eats you.

There could be other obstacles like Living vines or bodies in a grave yard that grab you for a sec if you get too close or are knocked in to them.

Keep the stage Weapons

Use the stage as a weapon = Kenshi might be able to pick up a rock and throw it at you.

Someone might throw a fireball at a wall making the debris from the wall hit the opponent.

That’s taking the basic idea and making it better.

I don't believe that MK7 needs to play like DOA in order become successful.

It doesn't need to play like DOA, but it's ok to take some basic ideas from it and other games to make the game play in MK better.

Many would agree otherwise. I agree that MK could change drastically in some areas, but that doesn't necessarily mean copying directly off another game/series, that'll make gamers despise the series even more. MK Puzzle Kombat & MK Special Forces anyone? BTW, the developer of the DOA series said himself that he got his ideas & inspirations for DOA from MK & Fatal Fury.

yeah, they were used as an inspiration for the stage interaction or Eye candy, not the fighting in the game.

DOA1 plays more like VF1 if you ever played it. It doesn't have any multi tired stages.

But even so, what's the problem with that?

Because DOA has more level interaction with little hills, steps, windows.......

Does that mean that MK can't have something similar?

Is MK now limited to what isn't in DOA or any other fighter?

It's ok to take ideas from others, as long as it's not exactly the same unless it's unavoidable.

Well...

just don't bring back kobra or rain..eewwww.and no cheap ass TS drops or unblockables.

Kobra could be fixed to be a cooler character. Better costume, a hair cut, maybe different moves or whatever.

Rain could have some bad ass moves like using blood as a projectile.

He could even remove the blood from the opponent's body like Magneto did with the Iron in the X=men 2 movie.

Tomb stones could be fixed = just give it a wind up, like Jarrecks quake in MK4 then just make it so you can crouch or jump to avoid it.

Unblockables would have a long wind up and would be fairly easy to avoid. Like the ones in SC2 and Tekken 5. They are very hard to connect with.

IMO they don't need to remove stuff, just fix it. Removing it would be like running away from a problem instead of fixing it wouldn't it?

Yes I finally took the time to make the jump here and read the threads.

I'd love to see Rain have blood moves. To make him interesting, he could not really have to many special moves persay, but once he makes you bleed he can use your own blood against you. So a punch may pull out some blood and then if you react quickly (or it could be part of a combo) he can have the blood fly into the eyes of the opponent. He can also make use of the blood on the ground. So if he's having difficulity kicking some ass, kicking his ass will give him some blood to play with. It would make for a very interesting play dynamic with him, as I'm for very unique play styles for each character.

Oh and yes
frame advantages, disadvantages, multiple unblockable throws, rising attacks, , powerful charged projectiles and various blocks

Lock in the game at 60 fps, and make adjustments on the current engine to an extent. Add some sort of dash dynamic, pump of the polygon count, and hire some more martial artists. Reduce the # of fighting styles, give some people just 1, others 2. In fact standardize some moves like the uppercut (or a sort of popup). Weapons should be more like they were in MK4.

That should sum up everything of mine in a nutshell from the HDTran thread

Rain would be so bad ass if he could control blood.
Because of the moisture.

I got the idea for that from the movie "Storm Riders" There is a part in the movie where a guy gets his arm broken by a counter attack.

The guy then rips off his own broken arm off and uses the blood as a projectile. It was one of the coolest things I'd ever seen!


I'm not sure if Rain should still control water like sub zero, or if he should only use blood.

Maybe when you do a fireball or a water attack if there isn't any blood around, you will only use water from the air.

If there is blood then you would use the blood.

It could also be a mix of blood and water.


It's like a simple color change to the projectile, but if the blood is used, you would see it come off the floor or out of the air if it's still falling.


The combo you posted is awesome!

The combo ender would be a shot of blood that was just gushed out by the previous attacks.

weeeeeeeeeee! blood moves...blood shields. it would be funny if you could melt sub's freeze ball with warm blood and douse liu's fire with blood. this is making me have strange fatality ideas. like the guy get's crushed by a pillar of blood.

omg. my legs hurt now.

Rain would be pretty neat if he had that move, but I still see him as a lightning and rainstorm kinda guy. It would have been cool if Nitara had that blood control power. It would have made her a more interesting character, and might fit her better...being all about the blood anyway.
Another neat one with that power would have been Havik. They could have made him closer to a sorcerer with spells that control blood. And besides, who else in the MK universe would be able to (and willing to) rip off their own lims and use them as weapons, or use the blood as a projectile? That just has "Havik" written all over it.

I'd love to see Rain have the moves I listed. Mod his story to rain getting his name because the blood pours or something. Not to bad about Nitara getting the moves, but her story feels limited.

The idea of Sub-Zero using the moisture in the environment is interesting. On certain levels he could be more powerful and then he fights in hell and his powers are limited.

I'd like to see certain moves able to negate or totally overpower other certain moves. An example is that Liu Kang may have a very powerful fireball, but Sub-Zero can counter it with an ice blast, and/or it doesn't hurt him as much. Sonya's kiss of death dust doesn't work on Kenshi. Scorpion can melt out of a Subs freeze. Cyber smoke can't smell BoRaiCho's gas.

Rain could simply have the ability to manipulate liquids. Like if it was telechenesis, it doesn't matter what liquid it is.

water
blood
sweat
lava
acid
vomit

Rain would be able to walk on water also.

Maybe he just prefers to use water or blood because that's just what he prefers. Like any warrior has a favorite weapon.

For a fatality, he could remove all the water from the opponent's body and make their skin turn all dry like a mummy, then to dust. Sort of like Shang's fatality in MK2.

You would see all the opponent's blood and water floating around the 2 fighters, then it would just drop in a circle around them making a big splash like a blood bath.

I'm still for Sub-Zero having water control. The drying up fatal would work a lot better with Subs. Kinda reminds me of the metal scene from X2 and the guard. I mean we are 70% water, so I'd like Subs to somehow take advantage of this.

Rain is such a cool character, but his moves seem better assigned to others.
The lightning strike seems to work with Raiden better.

His telekensis ball is quite interesting and would be fun to use in the next game. Once he hits you with it, he could then do Ermac type moves to you.

His roundhouse could be kinda like Kai's from MK4. Agressive and done via a command.

An interesting character could manipulate time and space. Maybe the Dragon King can have a move which he goes Matrixy on you (of course you can block it somehow).

Time would be nice too.

I posted an idea for that in the other giant game play thread in the MD forum.

It was like Jet Li in the movie "The one"

I had it so that the slower time gets, the more black and white the scene becomes. You stay in color but everything else gets less color.

Then all the sounds you hear would be muffled, like if you cover your ears. It would sound like that.

Maybe Kabal could use that, or another hyper speed fighter like maybe a God of time?

In a juggle he could do the last hit, then as the opponent is landing on the floor. He would reverse time so everything goes backwards except for him.

Then he could connect with another hit as if he did Kehsni's lift.

If he does Kabal's run, you would hear a sonic boom.

He would also have a lot of dash in 4 directions, hyper speed combos where you only see a blur of your fighter as he does an MK style string. You could see white flashes as he connects.

They could be weak, have harder timing or just be a basic throw animation like Whoarang's side throw. The point of it being kind of long and unblockable is just for eye candy and to give him his style.

How about some cut scenes like in Shenmue when you get in a fight.

It could be a mini game like test your might or Test your site.

You would have to fight a room of opponents circling you.

You would use the Shenmue pre set fight control system to get some actual movie style choreographed fights.

They use the same idea for killing characters in God of War.

You would fight opponents with weapons and bear handed.

You could use a candle holder, or kick a pot towards an opponent's head.

Do jump kicks off the walls, dodge, reversals, attack in 2 directions at the same time.

Throw 2 opponent's at the same time = do arm locks on them, then smash their heads together or something.


It would all be pre set though like in the Shenmue games.

The challenge of the mini game is to press the correct button code when prompted in whatever speed it happens in.

You would use a button set up like this....
Punch
Kick
Block
and the D. pad up down left or right.

When a button appears on the screen, you have to press it quick before the time runs and it disappears. If you do it right, you will do something like counter the opponent's attack, if you mess up, you will get hit.


Fights in this mode would look something like the MKDA CG trailer with Quan chi fighting Scorpion.

It could even be like the fight in the matrix 2 when Neo Fights all the Smiths.

It could also be like a fight in a Jackie chan movie.

Just like a choreographed movie fight.

Pressing a button when prompted would result in 1-4 attacks = so you don't have to press a button for every single move you do. You would press 1 button per "segment".

Example segment = you have 3 guy's around you.
1 = You see the button "Punch" on the screen. could be Triangle on the PS3.

2= If you press "Punch" in time, you will block the first opponent's punch, counter the character behind you, attack the first opponent, then do a flip to avoid the 3rd guy's sweep.

3= If you mess up and press "Punch" too late, or press the wrong button.
You will take the hit from the guy in front of you, the guy in back of you will kick you in the back, the guy to your side will sweep you. You will fall down then have some more options.

When you are falling, you will see the block button show up "BLK"
1= If you press block in time, you will do a tec. roll.

2= If you mess up, you will fall down and someone will attack you when you are floored.

If you are floored and someone goes to attack you. You would see something like a direction on the D. pad = Left = to roll left. Maybe block to block the opponent's attack or take them down with a ground reversal.

The fights would flow like that.

If you mess up too much, you will be killed or just KO'd.

If you mess up too much, you will be killed or just KO'd.


The fights will be different every time also, If you re do the same fight, the guy in back might attack first or whatever. The button input would be different also. Maybe with the example above, if you press “BLK”, you block the first attack, if you press “punch” you will counter it, if you press “Kick” you will do a kick counter, pressing “up” would make you dodge it.

It all depends on what random button shows up on the screen.

I've brought up intros before, with some custom lines depending on who is fighting whom.

A Sonic Boom in a MK game? Umm Capcom wouldn't like it...

While embedding a mini-game into the intro seems kinda wierd, I'd like a throw the first punch option. I think this would work great though with the Dragon King.

Time manipulation should be a move that takes while to build up.

Now super speed like Kabal would be different. How would an opponent be able to control themselves during their own slowdown? Even if they block, it could get very annoying to have the game slow down everytime and you're controls become sluggish (although a great idea for the DK is he inverts your controls for a period of time).

I'm actually more for embedding some types of puzzles into the levels.

Levels where if you hit the correct sequences of walls, you can gain access to other rooms with weapons and stage traps, or you have to find a hidden room to trigger the stage fatals or increased environmental damage (there can be a lever or something inside).

EX:
Something like Scorpion's lair (from the first movie).
Knocking down various beams can lower pathways to other flattened areas. You may start mid way in the level, but to escape the level, you have to get to the portal which is in the center. Knocking the right beams allows you to make a pathway to the portal.

Smacking a statue with your weapon a few times opens up a secret chamber filled with stuff.

Why do this?
How bout replace the krypt and unlock everything through the stages? It might be a little more tempting to go fight on a tiny piece of decaying rubble over lava because it could unlock a character!

You misunderstood what I said about the sonic boom and slow motion.


The sonic boom would be a sound like a crack of thunder, nothing like what Guile does. It would happen when a hyper speed character like Kabal moves at the speed of sound. You hear a boom like thunder or lightning.

The slow motion or time rewind would effect everything except you. The same way Sub's ice blast slows the opponent to a stand still but Sub can still move at normal speed. It’s as if Kabal was moving at hyper speed and you were moving at the same speed he is, so everything else looks slow or rewinds.

For an example of this, watch the movie trailer for The One with Jet Li.

Look for the part where he throws the cop over his shoulder and the cop freezes in the air =slow motion. Then Jet Li walks up to him and kicks him out of the air. Jet Li is moving super fast in that clip.

Go here to watch the trailer. look a little past the middle of the movie.

The time slow down would work like Ermac's lift = invisible and easy to block. It's good for extending juggles, counter attacking when your opponent is open after missing an attack or if the opponent is stunned.


The idea for the pre set fight scenes is a mini game like test your might, not a fight intro. It would be like a new version of test your might. You fight a group of opponents like in a movie. The controls are specifically designed to make the fights look exactly like a choreographed movie fight.

I think they should use the Rag Doll physics for MK7. Instead of the fall back KO animations, have the opponents collapse, or fall differently depending on how they are hit.

Maybe just come up with better fall down animations for KO’s

bleed, I was just joking about the sonic boom. I don't do smilelys.

I don't know if rag doll physics would be good in a fighting game. They work well in action-esque games like Psi-Ops because it's fun to toss people around and watch their limbs flail about wildly but a fighting game is really up close and personal if you know what I mean. The character models are usually more detailed and flaws can be pointed out more readily. I'm just imagining it'd look weird to see Scorpion laying on the ground with his legs bent behind his head and his arms twisted in the wrong directions. Like if the last punch of the match magically removed his skeleton. I can't imagine it being too difficult to create a more natural falling animation. I attribute it to (once again) laziness. It's easier to just program a standing model to fall like a brick since it doesn't require extra animations than to actually have Carlos Pesina do multiple collapse motions.

well rag doll could work with fighting a telekenesis fighter, but just programming one fall seems too cheap. I hated the acid pool because the same animation was used for going into it, flying up like an uppercut. I'd like to see more realistic physics. Like Cage's kick would send the person into the wall, then the person slides into the pool.

Actually if the last hit is something that sends the person down, let them stay down, or slowly have them get up already dazed. A kick to the head should send the person flying in the direction of the hit. MK4 had this pretty good.