I reckon the Midway should team up with whoever makes the 3D fighter, be it the Tekken or King of Fighters team, Midway should do characters, levels etc, and the other team should do core fighting system, then everyone will be fuckin pleased coz they can play with their fave characters and do their fatalities (thats all i play MK games for) and they can play a agame that has a fuckin killer fighting system.

buterbals113085 Wrote: Well you just keep contradicting yourself. Just read your damn post again. This is a message board so we could say what WE want. And about everyone giving the guy who made this thread shit, we are just stating our OPINIONS. Anyways case closed and dont refer back to me again.

god..ur still bitchin?!..sigh..listen fool..im not stopin anyone from sayin wat they want to....im encouragein it...i was tryin to defend the guy who made this thread from all these super fan boys who always get mad when someone starts a thread about how much the mk:da/mk:d fighting engine sucks..they even changed the title of this thread earlier....to "best fighter of e3" lol...god its amazing how u guys get so mad over something that isn't even real....anyway buterbals113085 if u didnt like wat i had to say before im sorry man... heh yea rite j/k..lol u think i'd acutally say sorry? lol..but really if u didnt like wat i had to say in my other post then get over it..live wit it...life goes on... now stop bitchin n lets get back to topic

starwinderbeta Wrote: Then that's not complete mastery of a character. As a matter of fact, complete mastery of a fighting game character is almost impossible, as there are several different ways to play and analyze one character. Complete memorization of moves and some tricks, however, are commonplace among fighting gamers.

Yes, but I should have added that while I am a passionate fighting game player, I just don't have the time to focus myself on two or three games at the same time. Games like Tekken are, as you say, more time-consuming to master fully. I agree that it makes more for a challenge, and given time I would prefer that (I preferred playing Tekken 3 over MK4, for example, because back then I had more time to specialise myself), but I don't think I'm the only player here who doesn't have enough time to delve into a game for hours and hours.

starwinderbeta Wrote: A lot of them are useful. The percentage of useful moves per character in Tekken/VF/Soul Calibur is much higher than the percentage of usefuls moves in MKDA. Let's not fool anyone here. 80% of the moves per character in MKDA were unneeded and useless. The fighting styles were not presented faithfully enough (Or maybe the fighting styles are as useless as the game's styles are).

Agreed. However, I have a smalle remark about the usefulness of moves in Tekken. In T3, for example, I found that many of Paul Phoenix's moves were rendered pretty much irrelevant by his cheesier combos. And I took the trouble mastering all of King's chain throws, only to discover moments later that my brother could crawl out of them... That didn't feel really rewarding :D.

starwinderbeta Wrote: Yes, learning a character in Tekken/VF/SC takes hours, but that's what makes it FUN. Being able to learn a character, and find out that there is more potential to him/her. This motivates one to play with the character even more and learn new strategies/combos/maneuvers, leading to fun times and increased skill, which leads to some excellent, varied, and realistic looking matches. Yes, this applies to MKDA as well. But the thing is, most, if not all, of the characters played the same, and have small movesets, leading to quick learning of the character, deriving any fun that could be had in training mode, or even against an opponent. There are only so many juggles one can do with a single character in MKDA, and that's the major point of high-level MKDA play. The high level matches in MKDA look uninspired, dull , and repetitive. Most high level matches I've seen consist of style switch combos to sidestep evades, to juggle combo, to block, to backing up, to special maneuver (Every once in a while). It's either in this fashion, or some other variation of it. I've seen some really good players try things that are well executed in other fighters, such as advantageous pokes, low pokes, mixups, and such, but they really don't prove as useful (If at all), than other fighters.

Well, I don't know if that's entirely true. I haven't witnessed enough high level play of other games to make up my mind on this issue but in my experience a player like Kenshi is to be played differently than, say, Reptile. Also, I should add that in Tekken, there are some really powerful and cheesy moves that can allow a noob to beat a pro and I've never seen this happen in Mortal Kombat. At least, that's my experience, feel free to disagree with me.

starwinderbeta Wrote: *sighs* Here we go again with another varitaion of "MK is fun, Tekken/SC/VF is not/not as fun". I admit, MKDA was fun, for the three days that I played, and unlocked everything in it. Everything got extremely stale afterwards, even with competition against human opponents. It's the lacking engine. Threads and posts concerning MKD's engine made by members such as Versatile and TonyTheTiger aren't because they WANT Mortal Kombat to be Tekken, VF, or Soul Calibur. They want MK to borrow some generic elements of those three fighters. Those generic elements are the foundation for a decent fighting game these days. Things such as some of what I mentioned above and things in the mentioned members posts. MK can still be made simple, but it can be crafted in a way that both casual gamers and hardcore fans can enjoy. Everyone here has mentioned Soul Calibur as the worst offender in terms of challenging MK. Surprisedly, Soul Calibur is as simple as MKDA, more or less. If you look at the movesets in SC, and looks at the movesets in MKDA, there really isn't much difference, save for a few Just Frame moves and moves with special properties. Combo execution is pretty much the same in both games. Actually, MKDA has longer chains in an average combo than SC has.

All true and fully agreed.

starwinderbeta Wrote: You complain about having to memorize and execute these moves, but Frost's three style change combo alone, is longer than any combo in SC2. And the timing is pretty hard to land for the first 30 mins to an hour of practicing with her. This is one combo. In SC2, that amount of time spent leads to memorization of a good percentage of one character's moves, some strategies learned, and maybe a decent juggle combo or two.

I'm not so sure about this. Perhaps Frost's full style branch combo is a bad example but I think hers is not so tough (except for some minor timing issues). Some button combinations in games like SC or VF have also struck me as hard to master or as being very unlogical.

starwinderbeta Wrote: Juggle combos are not SC2's forte, but they are better than MKDA's (In which high level play consists of a lot of these). Unlike SC2, MKDA's juggle combos are pretty much identical, execution wise, for all characters. You do a "pop up" move, then get in three hits, then tha character falls down. Again, in high level videos, I've seen experts such as Konqrr pull off more than 3 hit juggles, which is actually a good thing--until it gets repetitive. Most of the movesets in MKDA are designed in a way that creating fully customizable juggles are next to impossible, so there are only maybe two or three solid and useful juggle combos executable per character. There's not much variety. In SC2, everyone plays different, so each character juggles differently. Of course, the basic concepts apply. Let's compare two SC2 characters: Nightmare and Yoshimitsu. Nightmare is a fairly big, brutish guy, whereas Yoshimitsu is smaller, and more agile. On top of this, Nightmare carries a sword that probably weighs about 3/4 of his weight, and Yoshimitsu carries a small Katana. In terms of juggle combos, Nightmare probably has maybe, one or two solid ones, whereas Yoshimitsu has a slew of them. Some of Nightmare's juggles begin with 3B (Down+Forward B), which is a vertical slash upwards. Seeing as Nightmare is a pretty big guy, and his sword is huge, he couldn't possibly pull off insanely fast juggles such as the ones in MKDA. So he relies on using his strength, instead. By pulling a 3[B] (Down+Forward and hold B), he swings upward, and goes into one of his stances, Night Back Stance. In this stance, there are 4 forms of juggles he could do (This is thinking off the top of my head): B, K, KK, or A. Pressing B lets Nightmare swing his sword down and fast on the opponent, ending the juggle. Hell, they shouldn't even be called juggles, since they're only one hit. Pressing K let's Nightmare knee the opponent. KK lets Nightmare do the knee, then drop that leg, and kick with the other. Most times, only the knee will hit, because of Air Control, but that's a different discussion. A lets Nightmare swing the sword around him twice. Most times than not, only the first swing will connect. Yoshimitsu plays more like the characters in MKDA in the sense that he's fast, and can pull off 3 or 4 hits in a juggle. For exapmle: 3B has Yoshi punch the opponent upwards, launching him/her. Off the top of my head, I can think of two juggles Yoshi can pull off: (A, 4KB) and (A, 6K). After the launcher, pressing A makes Yoshi slash his opponent quickly, then 4(Back) KB makes him kick, then slash downwards. By holding B, the downward slash can become an unblockable (Look at the variety). A, 6(Forward) K is a bit similar. A has Yoshi perform a quick slash, and 6K makes Yoshi perform a spin kick.

Point taken.

starwinderbeta Wrote: Here are three videos of a Nightmare, Yoshimitsu, and Maxi match. Watch this, and then watch some of the high level match videos Konqrr has on his site (Is they're still there), and you'll see the difference. Each character in SC2 is very different from each other, whereas in MKDA, everyone more or less played the same. The only difference was in attire and background stories.

If you allow me to be the devil's advocate here for an instant, you have to admit that DA was a vast improvement over MK4. In MK4, every fighter played the same (they even had the same autocombos). As in my first example, I don't really think this is the case for MKDA, although I admit that there is more variety in SC and MK might want to evolve in that direction.

starwinderbeta Wrote: This is what makes a fun fighter. When each character varies from one another. It leads to many possibilities and outcomes. So many strategies and possibilities against one character, let alone all of them. And SC2(Greatest offender) is extremely player-dependent, meaning that the way a character is played depends on the player. How's that for variety? This is why Tekken, VF, and SC are beating out MK in terms of high level and tournament play. MK may win in terms of sales, and it's only because of its name. By the way, bloody games do not always equal fun.

With bloodless I meant cerebral, not the actual absence of blood.

starwinderbeta Wrote: P.S.: If Nightmare were in Mortal Kombat, we would pwn everyone. Some of his moves can cleave a human in half. How's that for an easy victory? Maxi > Johnny Cage with the nunchaku, too.

LOL. Well, there are DA characters with cleaving moves as well. In any normal circumstance Quan Chi's broadswords would kill an opponent almost immediately.

Agreed on the nunchaku however. It's never going to be one of my favourite weapons anyway.

Cheers,
VQ

Oh and by the way, if I may add, I've been thinking: SC doesn't always have varied gameplay. In SC, Astaroth and Rock have about the same moves. Same goes for Siegfried and Nightmare, Lizardman and Sophitia and Cervantes and Soul Edge. Mitsurugi and Hwang are also comparable to a degree... So, not every fighting style or fighter is unique there as well.

VQ

Mortal Kombat is scrub fighter. Always has been always will be a scrub fighter. Don't expect it to be anything more. It's a fighter for scrubs.

It's will never be a top notch respected fighter nor will it ever be a fighter regarded for it technical play like street figher, SC, Tekken, KOF, and GG. I don't want to MK to be like any of those games. I want MK to be GOOD. For god's sake I just want it to be a fighter that I can play in tournaments around the world and rep it. It will always be a uppercut-fatality scrub fighter with very little technical learning to be done. And don't say I know shit about MK. I've played MK since the begining. The closest MK has come to success interms of technical play was MK3-MKt engine.

By watching the vids and seeing the character interaction in MK:D, I can almost garuntee the same for kruddy MK:DA gameplay in MK:D. I hope to god that this will be one of the top tournament worth fighters in high level play, but I seriosuly doubt it. I love MK, but I have no faith in them making a fighter that can hold my attention for more time than it takes to unlock all the hidden stuff contained in the game. Online? Why would I want to play a scrub fighter online? Seriously? You MK is going to contend with all the other fighters comeing out online this year?!?! no one with a brain is going to spend time with a scrub fighter online with maybe 30-35 good fighters and all others to be scrubs when you can be playing 3rd strike with about 100 kickass seasoned vets not to mention hundreds more with carry over kickass skills.


It's sad. I really is sad. It's been so long, and by all merits Mk should have died LONG ago becuase of its lackluster technical play.


Mortal Kombat stays alive due to its entertainment value in the visulas and story alone. Nothing more.

VainQueur Wrote:

Yes, but I should have added that while I am a passionate fighting game player, I just don't have the time to focus myself on two or three games at the same time. Games like Tekken are, as you say, more time-consuming to master fully. I agree that it makes more for a challenge, and given time I would prefer that (I preferred playing Tekken 3 over MK4, for example, because back then I had more time to specialise myself), but I don't think I'm the only player here who doesn't have enough time to delve into a game for hours and hours.

That's understandable. But one does not have to devote much time in those types of games to have fun. SC2, especially, is built in a way that experts and casual gamers alike can enjoy. If one wants to pass the level of a casual gamer and delve deeper, that's when more devotion is required. It's more enjoyable, though, when delving deeper and deeper into a character.

Agreed. However, I have a smalle remark about the usefulness of moves in Tekken. In T3, for example, I found that many of Paul Phoenix's moves were rendered pretty much irrelevant by his cheesier combos. And I took the trouble mastering all of King's chain throws, only to discover moments later that my brother could crawl out of them... That didn't feel really rewarding :D.

I am not a Paul player, so I have to ask a Paul expert's opinion on this. As for King...
The chain-throws are relatively useless, with the ability of the opponent to escape from a throw. Then again, those chains are a detriment to King in Tekken, in my opinion. King is more about taking advantage of opportunities and punishing through means of well placed strikes/launchers to juggles.

Yes, Tekken has some useless moves, but the point I was trying to make was that the percentage of useless moves overall in MKDA is very high, whereas in Tekken, it's relatively low.

Well, I don't know if that's entirely true. I haven't witnessed enough high level play of other games to make up my mind on this issue but in my experience a player like Kenshi is to be played differently than, say, Reptile. Also, I should add that in Tekken, there are some really powerful and cheesy moves that can allow a noob to beat a pro and I've never seen this happen in Mortal Kombat. At least, that's my experience, feel free to disagree with me.

Let me rephrase my previous statement. The characters in MKDA play differently, but they all feel exactly the same. There is no real noticable differences between the characters, except for their fighting stances, which have different sets of moves, thus making them play differently. They all feel the same: Linear combos, linear juggles, universal popup system, same character speed, same character weight relations, etc. Truly, there was no real difference to how each character felt.

On to Tekken: About 85% of the time, those "powerful and cheesy" moves used by newbies never connect against experts. If they do on a frequent basis, the opponent is no expert. Some fairly powerful moves have long frame times, or start off with an animation that lets the opponent know that it's coming (Example: Unblockables).

The risk of getting hit by a powerful attack and devising ways to evade it in a short amount of time raises adrenaline, and excites the player, leading to a more involving and exciting match, in my opinion. In a tournament environment, pulling a fast escape from a nasty incoming attack always raises shouts from the crowds/onlookers, which is always good. With the way MKDA plays, there is no way to experience that type of feeling. There is excitement, but not to a heightened level like those of the other 3D fighters.

Take a look at these videos. Some of the moves shown are not necessarily powerful moves, but the way they're evaded (Slow motion parts) just look awesome, and feel awesome, too. MKDA only had the sidestep and crouch, and maybe the backdash (Wasn't very useful, imo). Video 1, Video 2.

All true and fully agreed.

I'm not so sure about this. Perhaps Frost's full style branch combo is a bad example but I think hers is not so tough (except for some minor timing issues). Some button combinations in games like SC or VF have also struck me as hard to master or as being very unlogical.

Frost's combo is not necessarily tough, but it will prove so for someone like a first timer, whereas most of the basic combos in SC2 can be pulled off with relative ease. Those button combinations in SC/VF that you speak of are probably Just Frame moves/combos. The only other thing I can think of are probably combinations for some throws such as Ivy's Summon Suffering and Calamity Symphony, etc. They are like that for a reason. They are probably Just Frame moves (Except the throws. I haven't seen many JF throws). Most of those just frame moves have some sort of very advantageous property to it, or are pretty powerful (Throws). It's not illogical at all, really. For such moves, there should always be some catch to it.

Point taken.

If you allow me to be the devil's advocate here for an instant, you have to admit that DA was a vast improvement over MK4. In MK4, every fighter played the same (they even had the same autocombos). As in my first example, I don't really think this is the case for MKDA, although I admit that there is more variety in SC and MK might want to evolve in that direction.

I do agree that MKDA was a vast improvement over MK4, but I also believe that they had more than enough time to create a better engine than MKDA's. If I'm correct, they had about 2~3 years of time to rebuild the engine from the ground up.

Look at the transition from Soul Blade to Soul Calibur. Soul Blade was released in 1996, if I remember correctly, and Soul Calibur in 1998. The improvement from SB to SC was beyond phenomenal. If Namco could do this, the MK Team should be able to do it. Even with their time cut short by Midway. If they had spent less time stuffing useless items in the Krypt and more time on the engine, MKDA probably would not be as stale as it is now. If they wanted to pull something like the Krypt off, they should have done it in MKD. The Krypt would fit well with all those other modes, and the items contained in the Krypt will enhance that overall "nostalgic" experience, so to speak, what, with all the homages and tributes here and there...

With bloodless I meant cerebral, not the actual absence of blood.

I see. With the way some of these members discuss gore and blood in MK, I though you were relating to them.

LOL. Well, there are DA characters with cleaving moves as well. In any normal circumstance Quan Chi's broadswords would kill an opponent almost immediately.

Touche

Cheers,
VQ

Cheers,
Starwinderbeta

I have made my comments.

Lets see what they come up with and come back and talk about it.

if you say MK is the worst fighter at E3 than you must be like the only guy thinking that.. both ign AND gamespot gave Deception awards in the Fighting game department.. soooooooooooo :-p

Okay... Children Children...

If you Hate the Newest MK... Stay off the Motherfucking MK:D Forum...

If you Hate MK period... Go Fuck yourself for showing up on this Site at all!

If you are Comparing Completly Different Fighting Games... Press 1 1... Then go make sure you Lock your Windows and Doors at Night...

btw... the Guy with like 1600 visits... (I dont Bother to Remember your name, Just like I dont Bother to remember 100 different Combos for your 'Very In-Depth Games')

How the Hell can you have that many Visits while you are Hating the Very Game this Site Loves ?