FLSTYLE Wrote: One thing I'm disappointed with in Deception is the combo breaker, being a little disappointing in general is one thing but they could've just reworked the reversal, it had potential.

yeah, one thing I would have done different. I had rather liked it if you then were in defend mode or something and had to push about the same buttons as the other one, so that you would litterly go fist to fist. Know what I mean ???

Spirit_Wolf Wrote: FLSTYLE Wrote: One thing I'm disappointed with in Deception is the combo breaker, being a little disappointing in general is one thing but they could've just reworked the reversal, it had potential. yeah, one thing I would have done different. I had rather liked it if you then were in defend mode or something and had to push about the same buttons as the other one, so that you would litterly go fist to fist. Know what I mean ???

That's something I'd enjoy watching the replays of, nevermind playing it
It would be a good use of timing if done correctly, it could only end up turning into randomness instead, maybe the best way of using it would to have both the current engine and this new idea.

i hated mkda..for so many reasons.. but im not gonna get into that.. ive seen tons of mkd videos n imo mkd is actually lookin good so far.. it ait great as say tekken or vf but far better then mkda.. they did a better job this time

As usual people are reacting too soon. The game hasn't even been released and there's people already saying they're disappointed with it, and it's been so since the day we knew it would be released. Just be calm, relax, wait for the game to come out, play it in the comfort of your homes for a few weeks and then make your judgement. Don't judge games by playing a couple of hours in some games expo.

Machine_Error Wrote: PEOPLE SHOULD REMEMBER NOTHING IS PERFECT AND THERE IS NOTHING IN THIS WORLD EVERY1 IS GONNA AGREE ON SO KEEP UR THOUGHTS TO URSELF I H8 ARGUEMMENTS

thats exactly what i think. Everyone has a different opinion on what makes something great, so not everyone is ever going to be pleased...I am however, and cannot wait for the game.

I don't care about puzzle mode, chess mode and konquest mode (The last one seems to be so boring and so repetitive compare to SCII conquest mode, which is a real challenge...but I will maybe have a good surprise)!!! I want to play to a fighting game, not to anything else.
Instead of all this stuff they should have put more playable characters in the game, or maybe more kombat styles, or they could have improve the graphisms, the gameplay, the way weapons are used (it's like they have absolutely no weight...)They could have given to Scorpion real hapkido moves instead of the ones he has (They invented ridiculous moves and then arbitrary apply to them real martial art names). They could have create impressive moves: I wanna feel powerfull when playin'mk!!! There was so much to do...(happily they haven't kept cage and reptile whose moves, and especially the crab fignting style, were ridiculous).
I think they spoilt a lot of money, a lot of time, and a lot of skills in useless things...

DamRho Wrote: As usual people are reacting too soon. The game hasn't even been released and there's people already saying they're disappointed with it, and it's been so since the day we knew it would be released. Just be calm, relax, wait for the game to come out, play it in the comfort of your homes for a few weeks and then make your judgement. Don't judge games by playing a couple of hours in some games expo.

You don't need to go through the whole game to have a good idea of what you think of Deception, you see something, you get information of how it's done and how it's used, you put 2 + 2 together and think of whether you feel it's good or not, simple, there's no need for wait till it's out excuses.
Lots of people have done so already, I see threads complaining/praising fatalities, the odd gameplay thread every now and again and people discussing whether they like stories described through pictures or movies.
That's one of the main things forum's are for, expectation, updates, and then conclusion at the end.
The updates of opinion are nessaccery for not only making the forum interesting, but where Boon + Co get their feedback from, when they say a lot of fans say such a thing, and thought something needed modifying, places like this are where they got them from.
Stoping people from having discussions will end up in the whole forum filled with pointless threads, these more discussion based threads are the more fun ones.

FLSTYLE Wrote: You don't need to go through the whole game to have a good idea of what you think of Deception, you see something, you get information of how it's done and how it's used, you put 2 + 2 together and think of whether you feel it's good or not, simple, there's no need for wait till it's out excuses. Lots of people have done so already, I see threads complaining/praising fatalities, the odd gameplay thread every now and again and people discussing whether they like stories described through pictures or movies. That's one of the main things forum's are for, expectation, updates, and then conclusion at the end. The updates of opinion are nessaccery for not only making the forum interesting, but where Boon + Co get their feedback from, when they say a lot of fans say such a thing, and thought something needed modifying, places like this are where they got them from. Stoping people from having discussions will end up in the whole forum filled with pointless threads, these more discussion based threads are the more fun ones.

I'm not trying to stop people from discussing I'm just sick of threads like "Deception sucks" when the game hasn't even come out yet. I say you should wait until you see the complete product and play it some time to make an educated opinion instead of throwing guesses. That's just me.

Man, SCII's conquest type mode was fun, I'll admit. It wasn't all that hard though. The thing about it, is I don't expect MK:Ds Konquest mode to be hard either, but there is more story applied, and better presentation.
I'll have to admit that people who have spent a couple ours with the game are jsutified in their opinions. Otherwise, renting a video game would be pointless. YOu rent them and play them for a few hours (I know some people play them from when they get them till they have to take em back, but not most) and decide whether or not they like it enough to buy it. Sometimes another rental of the game is warranted, but usually within the first few hours you know if you want to buy it or not.
I think MK:D will be solid, and it is my most anticipated title of the year, just ahead of Gran Turismo 4 and Metroid Prime 2. I will not be dissapointed.

DamRho Wrote: I'm not trying to stop people from discussing I'm just sick of threads like "Deception sucks" when the game hasn't even come out yet. I say you should wait until you see the complete product and play it some time to make an educated opinion instead of throwing guesses. That's just me.

There's nothing stopping people from giving educated opinions now, you can't stop people being stupid about it, just listen to the one's who know what they're talking about instead.

D is looking "good" asthetically. Like always, though, gameplay is weak as can be. "What do people expect?" People expect a decade old franchise to actually get with the times. People expect it, somehow, to cease being the laughing stock of fighters.
Noobs always state "I don't want it to be another Tekken or a 'boring' VF." Well, duuurr. No one does. You can still have decent mechanics, that people respect, while still maintaining originality and this oh-so important concept of "simplicity." Infact, all quality games have, in one way or another, achieved this.
Peeps, don't worry. When D comes out, everyone who "bitched" about the game and "talked shit" about it will colaborate. They will clearly state what is wrong with D, what needs to be fixed, why it needs to be fixed and so forth. Funny enough, it will be the same thing that's being said now; the same thing that was said two years ago, infact. No one cares though.
"Nothing is perefect." No shit. My mother says the same thing, too. "There's nothing perfect this side of heaven." Pff, yeah, true; but you should never, ever, stop striving for perfection in the first place.
That goal of "perfection" is what creates greatness. With out that goal, you get half assed fighting engines and a gimmick that ran dry five years ago.
MK can do better, much, much better.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Keeping quiet before the game comes out is STUPID. You don't wait until something's finished before you make requests. It's important to talk because maybe, just maybe, someone will listen. It's too late now, for sure. But we've been talking about what Deception needs since before that first Baraka render was released. To be honest, I think at least a little bit got through since we've now got somewhat of a counter hit system, improved throws (at least visually), and combo breakers (though questionable).
In every thread about gameplay since freaking December, I know since I've archived them all, there's been at least one person screaming, "WAIT FOR THE GAME! YOU DON'T KNOW!" First of all, we do know. We know what MK4 was, we know what MK:DA was, etc. We know how the MK team does things so making an educated inference about Deception isn't all that hard. It's like if there's this one guy you know who always shoots rubber bands at you. One day you get hit with a rubber band from behind but didn't see anyone shoot it. Who do you think it was? You could be wrong but the odds are in your favor. On the contrary, we all hope we're wrong. I would like nothing more than for Deception to stick it in our faces. I'd love it if Ed Boon wrote a personal letter to TonyTheTiger, Satyagraha, Versatile, FLStyle, Wanderer, MrS, Bleed,etc. that said "You're wrong, Motherf***ers. Eat it."
The point is, nobody complains when people ask for certain fatalities. Nobody says, "Wait for the game!" People here just seem to be for the most part extremely satisfied with no substance with their blood. Sometimes I think that without the blood MK would be better because the fanbase would be better. Because of the blood MK became a huge success. But because of the blood so many fans are fixated on it even ten years after it stopped being original. This may come as a shock but Midway thinks we're STUPID They really do. MK fans have a stereotype of being dumb. Why do you think there aren't any half circle motions in DA? Why do you think there aren't any two attack button presses at the same time? They think we can't handle anything beyond a speak and spell! I don't know about anyone else but I find that pretty damn offensive.
The reason MK doesn't improve is not just the design team's fault. It's 50/50. It's our fault for not making them improve it by voicing it out. Nobody liked Tekken 4's wall system. It allowed for some bizzare things. Because of that Soul Calibur II's wall system was done much simpler. It probably wouldn't have been if nobody complained.
Don't worry. MK7 will be "attacked" too and hopefully after Deception's online play and people see the game for what it is there will be a louder voice.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: I've said it before and I'll say it again. Keeping quiet before the game comes out is STUPID. You don't wait until something's finished before you make requests. It's important to talk because maybe, just maybe, someone will listen. It's too late now, for sure. But we've been talking about what Deception needs since before that first Baraka render was released. To be honest, I think at least a little bit got through since we've now got somewhat of a counter hit system, improved throws (at least visually), and combo breakers (though questionable). In every thread about gameplay since freaking December, I know since I've archived them all, there's been at least one person screaming, "WAIT FOR THE GAME! YOU DON'T KNOW!" First of all, we do know. We know what MK4 was, we know what MK:DA was, etc. We know how the MK team does things so making an educated inference about Deception isn't all that hard. It's like if there's this one guy you know who always shoots rubber bands at you. One day you get hit with a rubber band from behind but didn't see anyone shoot it. Who do you think it was? You could be wrong but the odds are in your favor. On the contrary, we all hope we're wrong. I would like nothing more than for Deception to stick it in our faces. I'd love it if Ed Boon wrote a personal letter to TonyTheTiger, Satyagraha, Versatile, FLStyle, Wanderer, MrS, Bleed,etc. that said "You're wrong, Motherf***ers. Eat it." The point is, nobody complains when people ask for certain fatalities. Nobody says, "Wait for the game!" People here just seem to be for the most part extremely satisfied with no substance with their blood. Sometimes I think that without the blood MK would be better because the fanbase would be better. Because of the blood MK became a huge success. But because of the blood so many fans are fixated on it even ten years after it stopped being original. This may come as a shock but Midway thinks we're STUPID They really do. MK fans have a stereotype of being dumb. Why do you think there aren't any half circle motions in DA? Why do you think there aren't any two attack button presses at the same time? They think we can't handle anything beyond a speak and spell! I don't know about anyone else but I find that pretty damn offensive. The reason MK doesn't improve is not just the design team's fault. It's 50/50. It's our fault for not making them improve it by voicing it out. Nobody liked Tekken 4's wall system. It allowed for some bizzare things. Because of that Soul Calibur II's wall system was done much simpler. It probably wouldn't have been if nobody complained. Don't worry. MK7 will be "attacked" too and hopefully after Deception's online play and people see the game for what it is there will be a louder voice.

Amen! It is time for the quality MK fans to loudly voice their opinions on what needs to be changed about MK's engine, endings, fatalities, character design, interactivity, presentation, and on and on and on...
We can already judge MK:D by screenshots and the several gameplay videos and trailers that have been released.
I am disappointed with MK:D. After seeing the first MK:D trailer, I had high expectations for this game. After seeing the latest screenshots, trailers, and gameplay videos, I am now disappointed and unimpressed.
I will list several of my disappointments with MK:D.
--
1. Lame, Cartoonish Character Design.
For the third game in MK's 3D life, the characters still look quite cartoonish. While this is not a huge disappointment to me, it's becoming tiresome. I just hope that MK7's characters look, act, and 'feel' a lot more realistic. It would be neat to see a lot of small FMV sequences before the matches which feature character taunts, etc (the Killer Instinct vs. screens, Soul Calibur select screen).
--
2. Boring, Corny, Unimpressive Fatalities.
I'm judging this by the fatalities that I have seen in gameplay videos and trailers released by Midway as of Friday, September 17th, 2004. So far, I am solidly disappointed with most of the MK:D fatalities. I do not think that forced humor belongs in MK fatalities (Bo' Rai Cho). There was some humor in Kabal's Hell Mask MK3 fatality, but, I'm not sure if Midway meant it to be funny.
MK:D's fatalities seem forced. I do not have a problem with any of the stage fatalities/death traps, though the piranha fatality seems a bit too cartoonish, the way it's done. I think Midway could have done it a lot better. Picture a dark, mossy bridge over black waters. The victor uppercuts the victim over the side of the bridge, the victim falls in, and we see him/her thrash about in the dark waters, as the water quickly turns blood red. Bubbles and movement come forth from the water.
Just an idea.
I think bringing back old fatalities over and over and over and over and over again becomes very annoying. Especially when those old fatalities are not fan favorites. Midway is still overlooking some of the best fatalities that they need to bring back (Kung Lao's Vertical Hat Slice Fatality from MKII).
Though, a few MK:D fatalities are enjoyable (Sub-Zero's fan favorite, Hotaru's Slam), they are still lacking detailed, vital internal organs of the human body, as well as the many different-colored bodily fluids (bile, other gastric juices, etc).
Let's hope that MK7's fatalities have a lot more detail and random mess.
--
3. Same-old BORING Picture and Text Character Endings (WE WANT FULL-MOTION VIDEO ENDINGS!).

Sure, the presentation of MK4's FMV endings sucked big time, that was several years ago. I'm sure most of us have seen the FMVs in the MK:D trailers, they kick some serious rump! It would be awesome if MK7 had Full-Motion Video Character Endings for ever character: hidden, unlockable, locked-up, what have you!
Full-Motion Video endings are much more entertaining than picture and text endings because they are much more dynamic, and add a much more alive feel to the storyline, and even to the game itself! Also, Midway could build an 'Ending Theater' into MK7, which would allow you to view endings, as you acquire them, by beating the game with a character.
Now, don't get me started on disc space! If Tekken 1 and 2 can fit FMV endings on PS1 disks, then, surely MK7 should be able to fit FMV endings on PS3 and XBox 2 disks (or whatever form of medium they choose to use for storage)!
By the time MK7 comes around, it will be 2006, not the 1990's! Time for MK to go to Full-Motion Video Endings for every MK character!
--
4. Sluggish Gameplay Engine
Let's just hope MK7 has a better gameplay engine that MK:DA and MK:D. There are a lot of arguments and requests to be made in this department, but, I won't go into it that much.
I enjoy dial-a-combos, and I think MK should stay with them. Buffer combos are like playing a game on a 56K modem. LAG!
--
5. Lame Special Effects.
For some reason, it seems like Midway held back on the special effects. Too often, the same special move visual effect seems to be repeated for several different MK characters in MK:D.
Also, when MK brought back old special moves, they really didn't try to make them better, which they should have! Take Kabal's Tornado Spin Dash move, for example. In MK3, when Kabal ran past the opponent, an extremely-fast white streak would follow after Kabal as he quickly dashed past the opponent. The opponent would then spin very fast, engulfed in a high speed copper/silver-colored 'spin tornado.'
In MK:D Kabal sluggishly jogs past the opponent, followed by a transparent greenish 'mist' with several 'sparks' here and there. The opponent spins noticeably slower than in MK3 and is surrounded by a weird green 'spin' effect.
That's just disconcerting.
--
6. MK7 must have better presentation and visuals!
I would like to see large, animated MK characters at the select screen, and would like to see them pose/taunt/brag once selected. Soul Calibur II is a good example.
Also, the MK characters need to be much more dynamic! Blinking eyes, visible breathing, realistic-looking cuts and cruises, messed up hair, damaged clothing, stains from the environment, blowing hair, wet clothing/skin/hair, etc, etc! Anything that Midway can possibly do to make the MK character and environment look and feel much more realistic would be great!
However, not so realistic that the game is not fun anymore, but, realistic enough to make things much more alive!
Yes, MK:D is somewhat of a disappointment. Let's just say Midway was 'filling in the cracks.' However, MK7 is in the works, and let's hope that THE FANS WILL SPEAK UP AND VOICE THEIR OPINIONS!

The matches look like crap, mainly because of the unsmooth animation. Another reason is that some moves do not have the forceful impact it should look/sound like it has. The 2D MK games showed this well, with the screen shaking, sound effects, etc.
An example is the uppercut. Compare MK2's uppercut to MKD's. The sound and look of impact are very different. They need to be changed.

I liked the MKDA engine, sure it wasnt perfect but still tons of fun. Since they are making the game faster this time around is good news because the game needed a speed boast. Plus the level will add a lot to the game as well.

I know what you mean. I was just using the other games as examples as to why MK is different. Yes, I do acknowledge there are things that could be done differently. I have my own personal list as to what could be changed, but I also think it is fun as is. Yeah, I have a LOT of fun in the MK universe, but FLSTYLE, I will also agree with you that MK could do much much better. But I still think it is a different type of game, and to keep it fresh and familiar is a huge challenge.
Given what I said before, I think the MK team is doing well yes, but they also CAN do better.
And yes, by the way, speaking out as to what needs changed/etc DOES have an impact. I have a feeling that putting the breaker in (as much as the hardcore fighting fans out there do not like the way it is done) was at least an attempt to listen to the fans. That was one thing people were begging for with this game..a way to stop combos.
By the way, I do agree with you on the projectiles...however MK seems to be the 3d fighting game that utilizes them the most. I do like your idea about multiple projectiles..interesting..

FLSTYLE Wrote: Flaming aside, no-one is saying that it's anything to do with other games until people such as yourself say it is. Projectiles so far are still being fired forward as if the game was 2D, too easy to be side-stepped, if the things that make MK stand out are going to stay there then they are going to have to adapt to being in a 3D fighter. eg. if you're using them in a attacking way then multiple projectiles in different directions would work well, forcing the opponent to block, so you can attack. Something along the lines of this. Nevermind any of this they've done a good job doing something new, the classic aspects should've been adapted properly first. and yes it's better than the 3D street fighter games were atleast the next-gen MK's fight like something that resembles a 3D fighter, the street fighters were as 2D as their real 2D counterparts.

*bangs head on computer desk until I fall into a coma*

veinz Wrote: I play a lot of fighting games, I like a lot fo fighting games, and I'm good a lot of fighting games. I think MK:DA was just fine and am eagerly awaiting MK:D. You are clearly expecting way too much. The resonsiveness I thought was fine in MK:DA. Perhaps a little worse than SC2 or DOA, but it wasn't far off. I believe you exaggerate. The game was great, and I like it just a hair less than SC2. It sounds to me like you need to join Karate or something and spar in real life to get what you're really looking for. As for the rest of us, we buy the game because we like more than just the gameplay. I also enjoy the gameplay, but I like everything else too. Let's not forget that people don't have time to learn a shit load of moves like in VF4 (the most REDICULOUS GAME I'VE EVER PLAYED) anymore. People have jobs to do, bills to pay and spouses to pay attention to. The last thing I want to do is sit down and pump the same amount of time into learning one character as it would take to complete a Final Fantasy game. MK has always suited it's purpose. That's all I've ever asked it to do. To ask anymore is to ask it to be something it never will be. MK knows it's place, and it will stay there. I appreciate where it is because it gives me enjoyment and leaves me with time to do other things. I can have fun with that game and not sacrifice any large amount of time. However, I can get exceptionally great at it if I do spend a lot of time on it. The beauty is, it's my choice. Calling people mindless and other such things for playing a game they enjoy is shallow and immature. Go play your games and we'll play ours.

I'm in the same boat as this guy, I don't have time to learn 100+ moves for each character.But I do respect the opinions of people and I think that if they really want a better fighting system, go for it protest outside the buildings if you want. Remember that ALL fighting games have their cheap moves. There's always gonna be a fighter with some big damaging move that you can use to get an easy victory. You pick one move you can use, and you keep using it. I found that beating Tekken was ATLEAST 2x easier than beating Mortal Kombat even though Tekken had atleast 85 different moves for each fighter. This was with or without the cheap moves, anybody else notice that or is it just me?

er.. are you talking about Tekken AI? Because you cannot even beat an average Tekken arcade player with only a handful of moves, Tekken players at my university use at least 30 different moves per match. If you mean in singleplayer, ALL singleplayer fighting games are easy especially in MKDA where all you had to do is mix low and then mid to chain, well maybe except Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution's ghosting system in Quest Mode.
There are cheap moves in MKDA where you can't do anything about because they're entirely safe and their reward is huge, but everything in Tekken you can do something about. That's why you don't ever see anyone cry "cheapness" in Tekken.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: I'd love it if Ed Boon wrote a personal letter to TonyTheTiger, Satyagraha, Versatile, FLStyle, Wanderer, MrS, Bleed,etc. that said "You're wrong, Motherf***ers. Eat it."

Man, I'd frame that shizzle in gold and place it on my wall.
Speaking of putting in time with games, like FF7 time for VF time. After Chrono Cross I was like, "Dude, the hell with this..." lol. I sat back an just decided to put that same effort of an RPG into fighters. If I'm going to waste my life I might as well do it on a competitive medium that "somewhat" provokes a thought process and social interaction with other human beings.
I kind of miss my watery-eyed, RPG moments, though.

^^ =P
What good fighting games with lots of options look like in competitive play.
Tekken
(Tekken Zaibatsu's Evolution 2004 Videos)
http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/gallery/movies.php?id=evotag
http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/gallery/movies.php?id=evot4
Virtua Fighter
(scroll all the way down and click the links)
http://am.sega.jp/utop/news/vf4ft_ote4/y17.html
General (All Games, the two sites I always go for vids, check it everyday for a week or two if you are really unaware of what top-level play in games with depth are supposed to look like)
http://www.video-opera.com/
http://www.geocities.com/goforbrokehub/news.htm

I m dreaming of a mix between TOBAL 2, which is still considered as the best fighting game of all times in France, in terms of gameplay and fun at least (On the contrary, TOBAL 1 was ugly) and the dark MK universe. Don't say they have not the technology because TOBAL 2 is a playstation game. This is the reason why I think they have enhanced the general level of MKDA in MKD, but they could have done sooo much better!!!!
Of course, this doesn't mean I don't like it the way it is. The general evolution is good, whatever.

HDTran Wrote: er.. are you talking about Tekken AI? Because you cannot even beat an average Tekken arcade player with only a handful of moves, Tekken players at my university use at least 30 different moves per match. If you mean in singleplayer, ALL singleplayer fighting games are easy especially in MKDA where all you had to do is mix low and then mid to chain, well maybe except Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution's ghosting system in Quest Mode. There are cheap moves in MKDA where you can't do anything about because they're entirely safe and their reward is huge, but everything in Tekken you can do something about. That's why you don't ever see anyone cry "cheapness" in Tekken.

I don't know who the average Tekken player is, but i've seen and beat plenty of people with cheap moves while they were trying to execute complex maneuvers. I think it's just as easy to be cheap in Tekken, since you can hit players on the floor. This is just from my experience though, and I usually play against my friend. He has Tekken 4 and plays all the time, but I stop by and woop his ass sometimes not really doing much.

ROTFL@YOU Wrote: HDTran Wrote: er.. are you talking about Tekken AI? Because you cannot even beat an average Tekken arcade player with only a handful of moves, Tekken players at my university use at least 30 different moves per match. If you mean in singleplayer, ALL singleplayer fighting games are easy especially in MKDA where all you had to do is mix low and then mid to chain, well maybe except Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution's ghosting system in Quest Mode. There are cheap moves in MKDA where you can't do anything about because they're entirely safe and their reward is huge, but everything in Tekken you can do something about. That's why you don't ever see anyone cry "cheapness" in Tekken. I don't know who the average Tekken player is, but i've seen and beat plenty of people with cheap moves while they were trying to execute complex maneuvers. I think it's just as easy to be cheap in Tekken, since you can hit players on the floor. This is just from my experience though, and I usually play against my friend. He has Tekken 4 and plays all the time, but I stop by and woop his ass sometimes not really doing much.

Have you seen this yet?
Compare that to the way you and your friend play. If you think you can play the game like that, enter Evo 2005 next year for T4. If you beat at least 7 people in that tournament. I will personally virtually kiss your ass.

ROTFL@YOU Wrote: HDTran Wrote: er.. are you talking about Tekken AI? Because you cannot even beat an average Tekken arcade player with only a handful of moves, Tekken players at my university use at least 30 different moves per match. If you mean in singleplayer, ALL singleplayer fighting games are easy especially in MKDA where all you had to do is mix low and then mid to chain, well maybe except Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution's ghosting system in Quest Mode. There are cheap moves in MKDA where you can't do anything about because they're entirely safe and their reward is huge, but everything in Tekken you can do something about. That's why you don't ever see anyone cry "cheapness" in Tekken. I don't know who the average Tekken player is, but i've seen and beat plenty of people with cheap moves while they were trying to execute complex maneuvers. I think it's just as easy to be cheap in Tekken, since you can hit players on the floor. This is just from my experience though, and I usually play against my friend. He has Tekken 4 and plays all the time, but I stop by and woop his ass sometimes not really doing much.

so there should be a magic wall stopping them from hitting people when they are on the floor???
How about you just take out the whole idea of juggling altogether.
Borrow that copy of Tekken 4 from your friend (who from what you've said seems to be useless at it, which would explain why you beat him) and beat the game's AI on ultra hard mode, with 4 of your players still to fight, then you'll be someone considered to know what they're talking about when it comes to Tekken 4, or any other game from the series.
and even then, the quality of truely good Tekken players are a lot better than that of the game's AI.
(yes I can beat ultra hard team mode with 4 players left very easily and I don't consider myself a truely good Tekken player)
Speaking of juggling, I was disappointed that it didn't even exist in MK:DA one of the most basic things of a fighting game, I'm hoping such will "exist" in Deception.