Reasoning is not about fact or fiction. In fact the argument is quite flawed. Most systems in our life are quite inferior to what is available.

Look at cars. The general operation of a vehicle. Think for at least two minutes on how car interaction could be safer and easier. You should be able to come up with a lot. Think of the placement of pettles, the way your breaks look, the common placement of steros, placement of everything...hmm, it might not seem flawed to you because you've done it and seen it so long that it is farmiliar. But design and saftey experts agree...it's not the way it should be...why? Because it would be hard for everyone to switch.
Other examples are plumming, electric, clothes,our in acurate calendar, homeland security, the FUCKING metric system, our languages....etc

If you think about how long some things have been around and how some things (like phones) are so out of date. Saying that not switching from windows because they're used to it isn't a real reason, isn't valid because it is a common reason for a lot of things in this world.


The Inquirer has an interesting argument. It basicly lists arguments why not to switch to Linux. Then it takes those arguments and applies them to new versions of Windows.

I don't want to advocate Windows because I have a small beef with them. But here are the average users realistic choices of OSs:

Windows:

Pros:
-Generally easy to use UI
-Excellent APIs which make development easy, and in turn makes the user expirence better
-Software...people will argue tit for tat whether Windows has more software than other OSs but that's not the real issue...the real issue is software for windows is easier to get access to, generally has a cleaner interface, and fairly cheap.
-Hardware from multiple vendors.....ok linux has this too, this is really a counter point to macs, where your OS and hardware are too closly tied.
-Provides the balance of being easy to use and fairly customizable and powerful.
-Frequent, free upgrades
-Largest library of high end games

Cons:
-Insecure
-Buggy
-Because of Anti Trust Suite the Government has basicly prevented MS from adding any inovation to future versions of Windows
-CD burning software needs work
-At times relize on wizards too much
-Oh I almost forgot, it coasts way to damn much
-Registration


Linux:

Pros:
-It's free!
-Usally ships with complete software package
-Tons of free, usefull software and games available for download
-An online community of developers, testers, and users that help make the expirence work better
-Great for customizing looks and behaviours of software.
-Proven effective command line
-fairly secure
-again the disconect from hard / soft *ware
-Easy clustering, proven networking
-Who doesn't love penguins?
-did I mention it was free?

Cons:
-Multiple distributions, multiple Office Suites
-Difficult (for new users) install
-KDE? GNOME? Make the user choose? They want you to choose
-Rebuilding kernals
-Lack of people who can help you with computer problems, after all...you get what you pay for
-Lack of serious games
-Driver problems, slow to adopting some standards
-Though the speed of the UI is more consistant than windows, it is consitantly slower!
*please note, the average user doesn't care about most of Linux's benifets aside from coast

OSX:

Pros:
-Decent bundle of software
-Easy to use
-Good amount of software and games
-Decent customer service (Apple the only one that scores in that catagory)
-iMovie, iTunes, and that Garage program are worth checking out...sorry iPhoto, you're still crap!
-OS price is very reasonable

Cons:
-OS price is cheap but hardware is pricey.
-OS price is cheap but OS is replaced sometimes in as little as one year
-Poor brower support
-Slow UI
-Lack of customizing
-hardware ties
-so much more


Windows is the healthy balance os easy and powerfull.

The problem with these kind of topics, is that inevitably you'll soak up some fool like Agilo who will cram his opinion in your face and douse your whatever you have to say.

"I use these two awesome OSes, while you use crappy Microsoft. Here look at this biased piece of anti-Microsoft lamer bullshit article, AKA the 'good read', that you should check out why exactly lamers like me get to strut my unix knowledge about as well as bash operating systems that do well enough in their own rights."

Meh.

i use xp home....i just perfer using xp than anything else.

I'd just like to respond to a few of born_again_vampire's points here...

Windows

Frequent, free upgrades

Uhm... I think you're thinking of the patches they release to fix bugs. Most software vendors do this, including Linux distributors.

Because of Anti Trust Suite the Government has basicly prevented MS from adding any inovation to future versions of Windows

That isn't stopping them. Besides, having a monopoly isn't illegal. Using said monopoly to create a barrier to prevent other companies from entering the playing field is.

Linux

Difficult (for new users) install

And how many users install Windows from scratch? The vast majority of users get it preinstalled on their machines.

Lack of people who can help you with computer problems, after all...you get what you pay for

There's resources throughout the net who can help you. Besides which, "you get what you pay for" is a fallacy when it comes to software. Keep in mind that Apache (the default web server software for most *nix software) runs on more webservers than any other webserver program, hasn't had nearly the virus/worm issues that MS's IIS program has, and is free.

Lack of serious games

Granted, this is sort of the case. It's improving, though; Agilo posted a link to Transgaming earlier, and DOOM III and Unreal Tournament 2004 both have native Linux installers.

Driver problems, slow to adopting some standards

What standards are you talking about? I can't really answer this until I know what you mean.

Oh, and I've tended to find that with a few exceptions, I'm more likely to find that Linux will support hardware Windows doesn't. A perfect example is a USB-to-serial adapter I used on my old laptop. When I upgraded to Windows XP, it wouldn't recognize the adapter (there were no default drivers) and the manufacturer didn't make XP drivers. When I loaded Red Hat Linux 8.0 onto the laptop later, it recognized the adapter immediately and already had a kernel module that supported it. Also, at E3 2003, CCShadow's laptop couldn't work with ]0MBAT's video camera, and ] didn't have drivers for it. My laptop running Linux recognized it and worked with it right off.

Though the speed of the UI is more consistant than windows, it is consitantly slower!

The kernel developers recognized this as a problem. The 2.6 kernel now has support for pre-emptive multitasking which SHOULD alleviate this problem.

Mac OS X

OS price is cheap but hardware is pricey.

Compare the price of an iBook to that of lower-end laptops by Dell and you'll probably find the prices are somewhat comparable.

OS price is cheap but OS is replaced sometimes in as little as one year

Usually, though, you don't HAVE to upgrade right off, as Apple still supports older releases. The next version of OS X will be released next year.

Poor brower support

Beg pardon? Mac OS X 10.3 comes with Safari (which is also available for older versions), and there are Mac OS X versions of Mozilla Suite and Mozilla Firefox. All three run better than MS Internet Explorer for Mac, which MS has pretty much abandoned.

Lack of customizing / hardware ties

Actually, this is a selling point. You KNOW the software's going to work with the hardware right off. There's so many hardware configurations possible with PC, and Windows has to support them all. Besides which, there are peripherals that will work with Macs. A friend has an external DVD burner he uses both on his PC and his Mac laptop. As for me... remember that USB-to-serial adapter I mentioned? I found Mac OS X drivers for it and am using it with my Powerbook.

Just my $.02...

Umm... OOPS??

Ok.. No offense or anything.. but right around here is when I pretty much thought that your computer experience wasn't exactly all too credible.

born-again-vampire Wrote: -CD burning software needs work -At times relize on wizards too much

People use Windows because they are blind and the eyes of blasphemy and all that is impure/evil view things for them. End of story.

Actually, there are several things that can be done to a CD with Linux that, to my knowledge, can't be done with any Windows burning software. It's pretty niche stuff, but I need it.

LouisTypo Wrote: Umm... OOPS?? Ok.. No offense or anything.. but right around here is when I pretty much thought that your computer experience wasn't exactly all too credible. born-again-vampire Wrote: -CD burning software needs work -At times relize on wizards too much

I program in C, C++, C#, and Java. I am one of the admins for a corporate intranet for one of the largest financial firms in the US. Am I an expert in computers? No, but I do know a thing or two.

LouisTypo Wrote: Umm... OOPS?? Ok.. No offense or anything.. but right around here is when I pretty much thought that your computer experience wasn't exactly all too credible. born-again-vampire Wrote: -CD burning software needs work -At times relize on wizards too much People use Windows because they are blind and the eyes of blasphemy and all that is impure/evil view things for them. End of story.

After reading every one of the posts in this thread (and HUNDREDS of similar posts/threads over the years), I've reached a point where I sincerely hope the mods start considering an OS a type of console and that way threads about 'em aren't allowed.

P.S. I use Windows XP. Sue me.

P.P.S. Besides sexual favors, you can't get much out of me, so unless that's what you want, I'd reconsider suing me.

I'd just like to respond to a few of born_again_vampire's points here...

Windows

Frequent, free upgrades

Uhm... I think you're thinking of the patches they release to fix bugs. Most software vendors do this, including Linux distributors.

Granted most of them are fixes. This is more directed to Apple who is slow to admit there is a problem, and sometimes gets around to fixing it. But MS also gives free updates like WM9(mediocer) and WM10(much more promising) as well as powertoys, free screensavers, etc. Albiet, nothing ground breaking but some nice extras.

Because of Anti Trust Suite the Government has basicly prevented MS from adding any inovation to future versions of Windows

That isn't stopping them. Besides, having a monopoly isn't illegal. Using said monopoly to create a barrier to prevent other companies from entering the playing field is.

This is somewhat a question on the way business works. Look at IBM, ATT, and other government cases against tech companies. If you turn a stone under any business you will find problems, not because all companies are evil or irresponsible, but because the laws are not adequete.

Linux

Difficult (for new users) install

And how many users install Windows from scratch? The vast majority of users get it preinstalled on their machines.

Does't matter why, it's simply the case

Lack of people who can help you with computer problems, after all...you get what you pay for

There's resources throughout the net who can help you. Besides which, "you get what you pay for" is a fallacy when it comes to software. Keep in mind that Apache (the default web server software for most *nix software) runs on more webservers than any other webserver program, hasn't had nearly the virus/worm issues that MS's IIS program has, and is free.

There are resources but at that rate there are also resources to create all our own OSs so it's kind of mute. And btw, IIS6 has few security problems that aren't from untrained users.

Lack of serious games

Granted, this is sort of the case. It's improving, though; Agilo posted a link to Transgaming earlier, and DOOM III and Unreal Tournament 2004 both have native Linux installers.

It is getting better...

Driver problems, slow to adopting some standards

What standards are you talking about? I can't really answer this until I know what you mean.

Oh, and I've tended to find that with a few exceptions, I'm more likely to find that Linux will support hardware Windows doesn't. A perfect example is a USB-to-serial adapter I used on my old laptop. When I upgraded to Windows XP, it wouldn't recognize the adapter (there were no default drivers) and the manufacturer didn't make XP drivers. When I loaded Red Hat Linux 8.0 onto the laptop later, it recognized the adapter immediately and already had a kernel module that supported it. Also, at E3 2003, CCShadow's laptop couldn't work with ]0MBAT's video camera, and ] didn't have drivers for it. My laptop running Linux recognized it and worked with it right off.

Sometimes when we say it's not compatible with Windows we mean to say, we couldn't get it to work with windows. But older USB to serial boxes don't work because the way it was designed. I had an old one that worked because the manufacture didn't "cheat" Most (ie Belkin) do "cheat" though. As for video camera you just need the right software. But it's a mute point, including Macs, laptops are not ready to seriously handle video.

Though the speed of the UI is more consistant than windows, it is consitantly slower!

The kernel developers recognized this as a problem. The 2.6 kernel now has support for pre-emptive multitasking which SHOULD alleviate this problem.

That is a relief

Mac OS X

OS price is cheap but hardware is pricey.

Compare the price of an iBook to that of lower-end laptops by Dell and you'll probably find the prices are somewhat comparable.

First, iBooks are not worth mentioning. Unlike their iMac cousins, they are made with low quality parts and have a high repair rate (yes I did work in an apple certified tech shop for 2 years). Oh and you use Dell because of the popularity but let's look at others. I can get a good tablet for 1500!

OS price is cheap but OS is replaced sometimes in as little as one year

Usually, though, you don't HAVE to upgrade right off, as Apple still supports older releases. The next version of OS X will be released next year.

Your right but it is extremly disrespectful to their clients.

Poor brower support

Beg pardon? Mac OS X 10.3 comes with Safari (which is also available for older versions), and there are Mac OS X versions of Mozilla Suite and Mozilla Firefox. All three run better than MS Internet Explorer for Mac, which MS has pretty much abandoned.

I meant what is in the box. Safari and IE for Mac both blow. Many users can not even define a browser so usally don't attempt to change it.

Lack of customizing / hardware ties

Actually, this is a selling point. You KNOW the software's going to work with the hardware right off. There's so many hardware configurations possible with PC, and Windows has to support them all. Besides which, there are peripherals that will work with Macs. A friend has an external DVD burner he uses both on his PC and his Mac laptop. As for me... remember that USB-to-serial adapter I mentioned? I found Mac OS X drivers for it and am using it with my Powerbook.

Just my $.02...


It's a two way street because yes, in theory apple software should work with apple hardware (often not the case) Problem is if that hardware is often faulty or you want something new, your stuck. but for me to look for a win box I can choose based on things like all in ones, laptops, media centers, tablets, things geared toward video or processing, etc. It also means I can use different procs! Right now high end PC procs kick G5's ass. If I'm on Linux I can use x86 or Mac, best of both worlds so to speak.

ShingoEX Wrote: I thought Win98 had a ram issue when you hit 512mb or more...

It does when you go over 512Mb, but then, all I have is 512Mb so it's fine for me thus far.

If I had to use an OS other then windows xp pro I would probably use 98 SE. It's pretty stable and has some good features. I wasn't aware of the ram issue tho.

Jonin01 Wrote: ShingoEX Wrote: I thought Win98 had a ram issue when you hit 512mb or more... It does when you go over 512Mb, but then, all I have is 512Mb so it's fine for me thus far.

Right around here is when I pretty much thought that your computer experience was pretty credible enough.

born-again-vampire Wrote: I program in C, C++, C#,

Edit - Nevermind... completely misread something.

Nar my son. I wasn't really saying that Windows cd burning software is all polished and fine tuned. I was thinking more along the lines that the dude was just talking about minor things that can be easily changed (Like... lets say.. the sounds/cursors/desktop etc.)

However, now that I'm aware of bav's occupation/the programming languages he knows I think he's pretty experienced/credible.

Hyuga Wrote: Actually, there are several things that can be done to a CD with Linux that, to my knowledge, can't be done with any Windows burning software. It's pretty niche stuff, but I need it.

Just a few more responses here while I've got a couple of minutes...

Granted most of them are fixes. This is more directed to Apple who is slow to admit there is a problem, and sometimes gets around to fixing it. But MS also gives free updates like WM9(mediocer) and WM10(much more promising) as well as powertoys, free screensavers, etc. Albiet, nothing ground breaking but some nice extras.

Again, the free updates thing is hardly a MS-only selling point. For example, Nullsoft and Apple make their Winamp and iTunes updates freely available, for example. As for the slow bugfix comments... check around on the web. I think you'll find that MS is equally as slow (if not more so) to admit when there is a problem with their systems.

Does't matter why, it's simply the case

Actually, concerning Linux installs, it is most certainly the case. How often do users install Windows from scratch? Most times, if they have to reload their prebuilt box, they use an image CD provided by the manufacturer. I'm willing to bet a lot of those users would be lost in a from-scratch Windows installation. If/when PC manufacturers start preloading machines with Linux and distributing OS image CD's with Linux, we should see the installation issue become less of a problem.

In addition, the difficulty of installation really depends on the distribution. I consider myself a somewhat advanced Linux user, and Debian's installer frustrated the hell out of me. Slackware's installer is simple but might be intimidating for the new user (as it is entirely text-based). Red Hat and Fedora's installer is pretty user-friendly, graphically pretty, and simple.

Sometimes when we say it's not compatible with Windows we mean to say, we couldn't get it to work with windows.

Funny, I've rarely had that problem. Like I said in a previous post, we were an entirely Windows shop yet we've been able to integrate our Linux boxes pretty much transparently to the end-user. What issues I have seen with Windows interoperability haven't been so much due to the Linux community than it has been due to Microsoft. Microsoft tends to keep their network protocols and file formats proprietary and closed, so the Linux people have to reverse-engineer it.

First, iBooks are not worth mentioning. Unlike their iMac cousins, they are made with low quality parts and have a high repair rate (yes I did work in an apple certified tech shop for 2 years). Oh and you use Dell because of the popularity but let's look at others. I can get a good tablet for 1500!

Point taken. I've never actually used the iBooks, myself; my own personal laptop is a 15" Powerbook. It was expensive, but worth it. I personally consider it the best laptop I've ever owned. Your mileage may vary.

I meant what is in the box. Safari and IE for Mac both blow. Many users can not even define a browser so usally don't attempt to change it.

Horses for courses, really. I agree with IE for Mac blowing, but I happen to like Safari. In fact, even though I have Mozilla installed on here, I use Safari far more.

Just my $.02...

I agree with most of that.

Let me touch on the powerbooks. I bought a used G3 Powerbook which wasn't bad. It's how I get most of my OSX experince. When the G4 Pbooks were out I was very impressed by the size. Some of the things I didn't like was the battery time always seemed less than advertised. It also doesn't have built in digital media readers, a huge turn off for an ameteur photographer like myself. Also they add features like glow in the dark keyboards, I want tablet functionality or built in tv tunners.

Shinnokxz Wrote: The problem with these kind of topics, is that inevitably you'll soak up some fool like Agilo who will cram his opinion in your face and douse your whatever you have to say. "I use these two awesome OSes, while you use crappy Microsoft. Here look at this biased piece of anti-Microsoft lamer bullshit article, AKA the 'good read', that you should check out why exactly lamers like me get to strut my unix knowledge about as well as bash operating systems that do well enough in their own rights." Meh.

I'm sorry if you didn't like the article, but what's stated in it (had you read it fully) is all facts you and most people can recognize.

Then perhaps, if 'facts' is all you're striving for, you should also list a website that lists the PLUS side to Windows? Your intentions were obvious, Agilo.

I've just realized that this argument is going no where and will probably never make it anywhere. People use their computers for different things. While some sides of the argument are from system administrators, another side is from people that only use basic functions, and there still others like me that are caught somewhat in the middle.

I personally see the strong points of each OS, but it's true, Windows isn't that stable, Linux isn't user or beginner friendly unless you make it act like Windows.

There's no real point in going on about it as no one will agree unless all of our computer preferences coincide and all of our knowledge of computers becomes equal, and even then there probably still be disagreements while have a very boaring world at the same time.

Personally, I don't like the "hold" that Microsoft has, but while they have the most support and financial backing, it's probably a better bet for someone who knows nothing about compiling kernels or choosing different GUI's etc, etc.

So bascially, my position wil be to stick to my XP Pro machine until I: 1) Learn more 2) Linux gets more beginning/intermediate user friendly 3) Windows gets a stable operating system.

No one person can change that except me, no person can convince me of it until I find out for myself. No Windows person is going to switch a Linux person alone, no Linux person is going to swtich a Windows person alone (without a lot of chaos and training), No Mac, Window, Linux, UNIX, blablabla user is going to change unless they want to and are ready. Providing information is helpful, but arguing and trying to cram info down peoples throat will get everyone nowhere fast.