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Sub-Zero_7th
09/17/2007 02:40 AM (UTC)
0
mkflegend Wrote:
Ehh, Scorpion like everyone else is a fictional character when it comes down to it anyway. I see what you're saying but you're also talking about him as if he's almost real tongue Since he's ficitional, I think there's a certain level of flexibility there IMO.

Since some variations of Karate is japanese, wouldn't that make sense for him for have that since he is Japanese originally? Or some form of it. Something japanese that's aggressive.


Yes, there is a certain level of flexibility, hence why I said that a particular type of traditional Japanese martial art, not one exactly Ninja-related, could also be valid, such as Tatsumi Ryu, which contains Yawara (basically an earlier name for Jujutsu), Kenjutsu (sword methods), Shurikenjutsu (throwing blade methods), etc.

However, for him to use styles like Pi Gua, Moi Fah, and Hapkido, especially the first two, is ridiculous. Yes, Scorpion is a fictional character. Yes, MK is fictional. But that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be elements of logic and realism in it. Let's look at his story. Scorpion is (supposed to be, but isn't much of) a Ninja that comes from a Japanese Ninja clan, which is called Shirai Ryu.

In the MK storyline, Shirai Ryu is founded by Takeda, a former Lin Kuei warrior, and the creator of Ninjutsu. With the knowledge he must've accumulated, Takeda must've created a Taijutsu system in Shirai Ryu, so why isn't Scorpion using that? Also, it still surprises me that Scorpion, who is supposedly a master of Shurikenjutsu, has NEVER had any shuriken-related specials, but that's for a more Scorpion-focused thread.

My point is that I don't feel like any character can just use any style, so I can't picture Kano using Aikido or Shao Kahn using Yuan Yang Quan.

As for the Japanese styles of Karate, they come much later, long after the historical Ninja have disappeared into obscurity. They are not connected to the historical Ninja or any of the Ninjutsu traditions. Japanese styles of Karate are generally aggressive, not always. Shotokan is the prime example of a Japanese style of Karate.

However, it may be plausible for Scorpion to have learned a form of Karate in a time before he had joined the Shirai Ryu. But still, I think it makes the most sense for him to use the Taijutsu of his clan as his fighting style.

For Hapkido, a modern Korean martial art to be his "trademark" style as well as the trademark style of the other Shirai Ryu Ninja is pretty silly and takes away credibility from them. It's almost as horrible as Cyrax having "Ninjitsu" and using moves such as a high back kick *shudders in disgust*.
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mkflegend
09/17/2007 06:21 PM (UTC)
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I see what you're all about. The fact that you most likely follow martial arts more then anyone else on this site(which isn't a bad thing, it's cool) just saying I think due to that gives you your thought on "realism" on a fictional character. Personally, in the video game and even movie world the only true topic where they should be "ultra realistic" IMO should be with sports games, movies where if you mess with that it kills the concept.

A game/series like MK among many others however it's pure fantasy meaning more or less anything goes. I liked the fact that MK took the route of styles when I first played MK:DA personally, felt the concept in general was cool.

Personally, I feel in video games there should be some elements of realism yet an open door of "anything" since it is fiction with the exception of sports games really.

Example, MK:DA, MKD and MKA all used authentic styles, yet made up some for some characters like bosses, sheeva etc. Obviously it's a nobrainer in that case, Scorpion having hapkido I don't mind but his second style moi fa didn't seem to fit him in MKD. They took that realistic approach, yet left room for the "MK fantasy" obviously.

I think Scorpion having Hapkido fits him to a certain extent personally. In the older MK's or fighters in general nobody really had "realistic styles" they just had stances that portrayed martial arts yet with no "real" icon confirming the actual style. I mean old MK's, SF, KI, SC etc, etc.

I know tekken and DOA also use real styles but VF used them first technically since that game came out before Tekken.

Now they all use different styles except SF and KI since they're kind of dead.

But yeah my point is that it's a fictional characters, game. If they sat there for hours studying who should have which style and why, yet disagreed nobody would get anywhere. I'm almost certain the fans would get annoyed if that were the case of delaying a game, for the most part I think they did a good job. I mean a lot of fans liked the MKD styles, but didn't like the change in MKA. What they don't realize is that Midway did that for a few reasons. One, more characters therefore more styles shared or new, second it was done for balance reasons also. I know this factually since I'm one of those hardcore players online. They narrowed from 3 to 2 for balance. It's a logical move there in terms of gameplay.

Midway said though that as I'm sure you know, they're scrapping the multiple styles for MK8 so who knows, perhaps they'll go back to oldschool in 3D format? We'll see. I did like the idea though that they used authentic styles in the 3D MK games despite who felt some moves were limited, who had which style and who didn't. There are a lot of characters that I felt they got spot on if not everyone, definitely some.

If you look at DOA4, every other character has Karate and another style which escapes me at the moment that are very similar to each other. That was my beef with that game, fun game but they could have expanded the styles a bit.
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Sub-Zero_7th
09/17/2007 07:52 PM (UTC)
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I don't think realism has to only apply to sports games. I believe it can also apply to games such as MK. Yes, it's fantasy, but what I like about MK is that it sort of has that blend of realism and fantasy, unlike Street Fighter, which goes a lot more towards the fantasy side.

A lot of the characters in MK are martial artists or involved in some kind of military training or something along those lines, so I think it's good that they use martial arts styles. Although they are scrapping the multiple fighting styles system and starting from scratch, they could still use martial arts styles but with a different system. I would like that if it were done well.

It could be kind of like in Tekken in which some characters have a personal style that is derived from martial arts styles, and maybe have a base style. For example, with Sonya, her base style could be Tae Kwon Do but contain influences from Western Boxing and Kodokan Judo.

MKDA-MKA used a lot of real fighting styles and weapons, but the authenticity was poor overall, partially because of the flawed design of the fighting system itself. In MKDA for example, Snake was quite accurate in its stances and techniques, but the way some of them were done wasn't as fast and as fluid as they should have been.

Not even in Tekken will you get 100% accuracy with the styles, but at least the accuracy is better and that it's more fluid than in MK. I mean, if you're going to put in Taizu Changquan, put in Taizu Changquan, not some rigid style with crude techniques. Even if it may have some techniques in it that aren't exactly in that style, as long as the main aspects of the style are authentic and if the personalized moves and combos fit in with the aspects of the style, then it's fine. But instead, they really blundered with some of them. It's like having a style that looks like Muay Thai but calling it Aikido.

I'm sure they did try to sort out which character had which style. They did a good job with some characters (e.g. Shang Tsung). But again, they can't just slap on any style. Yes, there should be room for flexibility, but Kano having Aikido? Come on! He's a crude, undisclipined thug. Aikido is a style of peace and harmony.

Having a sense of realism and accuracy with the martial arts styles makes for good credibility, and it doesn't have to be 100% either.

Even with narrowing 3 styles to 2 per character, they still failed to create a balanced game.

I think you might be mistaken on DOA4. While I'm not much into DOA and don't know too much about it, I'm pretty sure there are more Kung Fu styles in it than Karate styles.

Going back to Scorpion, even without taking a sense of realism into account with his fighting style choice, it would still be logical for him to use the Taijutsu of his clan and not a style like Hapkido, namely because he's from a Japanese Ninja clan and the one that was founded by the creator of Ninjutsu. So for Cyrax to use it and not Scorpion, especially since Cyrax was from the rival clan, is kinda stupid.

You may be ok with any character having anything or whatever, but I'm not. There are various characters who could use various styles, but then there are some who really make a lot more sense with certain styles. That's just how I feel at least.
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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
09/18/2007 12:37 AM (UTC)
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Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
Going back to Scorpion, even without taking a sense of realism into account with his fighting style choice, it would still be logical for him to use the Taijutsu of his clan and not a style like Hapkido, namely because he's from a Japanese Ninja clan and the one that was founded by the creator of Ninjutsu. So for Cyrax to use it and not Scorpion, especially since Cyrax was from the rival clan, is kinda stupid.

True, but if that were the case, then it sort of doesn't make sense why Edenians and Outworldians, for instance, are using fighting styles from Earthrealm. I don't think it makes sense why someone from across the universe is using a fighting style that comes from a place far from their own location or origin.

For example, I thought it made perfect sense that Drahmin in MKDA was using styles called "Netherrealm" and "Oni" because that's where he's from and what he is. See what I mean?

I'm not saying they should make-up Edenian styles or Outworld styles and give them to Edenians or Outworldians, but I do think it doesn't have to make perfect or logical sense all the time.

You may be ok with any character having anything or whatever, but I'm not. There are various characters who could use various styles, but then there are some who really make a lot more sense with certain styles. That's just how I feel at least.

I agree, but more importantly, I think a character should simply have what suits them. If Hapkido has that rough and powerful feel to it, then it would be better for Scorpion to have it because that's the type of character he is.

(I still don't like Hapkido for him, btw. I'm just saying.)

Personally, I just want the characters to have fighting styles that suit them. I don't think Chinese characters should necessarily be bound to Chinese styles, or Japanese characters with Japanese styles, etc. I just want the styles to match with the characters and be a fighting extension of who the characters are, what they look like, how they behave, etc.
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Sub-Zero_7th
09/18/2007 01:49 AM (UTC)
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Apparently, Earthrealm fighting styles have been transfered to other realms, such as Outworld, through people from other realms, such as Bo' Rai Cho for instance. Even so, yeah, it is a bit confusing. I think they should've really had a personalized style for characters like Shao Kahn and base it off of a mix of styles.

In some respects, Hapkido has similarities to the Taijutsu used by the Ninja, but personally, I'd still go for what his clan's founder had created, especially if Scorpion were to especially have a strong Koppojutsu influence in his style, which would give him a more direct, aggressive approach. Hapkido is a bit more defensive and will use circular motions. To me, it kind of fits Rain better than Scorpion.

I do agree that Chinese type characters don't necessarily need to have Chinese styles or things like that. I mean, Jax is African American but is using Muay Thai, which comes from Thailand, and that's fine by me, because Muay Thai is a simple, direct, hard-external, aggressive style that has had and still has military use.
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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
09/18/2007 02:42 AM (UTC)
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Oh okay.

Alright, Noob's turn.

Of course, he should have a very mysterious fighting style, being the shadow warrior that he is.

I actually think Smoke's Mit Zu would suit him well. The stance looks like he's trying to be secretive and hidden, and the moves look strong, which I imagine Noob would be.

I don't know if Mit Zu is a direct fighting style, but I think an indirect style would be best for the mystery man.
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Sub-Zero_7th
09/18/2007 12:51 PM (UTC)
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For Noob Saibot, I would go with either Tall Monkey or Ba Ying Quan.

Tall Monkey is one of the 5 sub-styles of Tai Sheng Men and is designed for tall people with long limbs. It is a more conventional monkey style, preferring to stand (this style is also known as Standing Monkey) and not roll around too much, trying to keep an upright position. It's a long range style that apparently uses pressure point attacks.

Ba Ying Quan, translated as "Eight Shadows Fist", is a style of Kung Fu that comes from the Ma family style. It includes techniques and methods from styles like Wing Chun, Praying Mantis, and Chang Quan (Long Fist).

As for Mi Tzu Chuan, hmm, hard to say. It looks similar to Cha Chuan (Zha Chuan) and Meihuaquan (Moi Fah) and is a long-ranged style that comes from the North.
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Chrome
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About Me

09/19/2007 06:00 PM (UTC)
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Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
For Noob Saibot, I would go with either Tall Monkey or Ba Ying Quan.



So you did read my stuff.
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Sub-Zero_7th
09/19/2007 06:17 PM (UTC)
0
Chrome Wrote:
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
For Noob Saibot, I would go with either Tall Monkey or Ba Ying Quan.



So you did read my stuff.


lol, yes, I've read your ideas. They are quite interesting though I feel it'd be better if you put your own summaries of the different styles. Are you going to do any more of them?

Btw, please be sure to check out Mortal Kombat: Resurrection, which can be found here.

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mkflegend
09/20/2007 02:30 AM (UTC)
0
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
I don't think realism has to only apply to sports games. I believe it can also apply to games such as MK. Yes, it's fantasy, but what I like about MK is that it sort of has that blend of realism and fantasy, unlike Street Fighter, which goes a lot more towards the fantasy side.

A lot of the characters in MK are martial artists or involved in some kind of military training or something along those lines, so I think it's good that they use martial arts styles. Although they are scrapping the multiple fighting styles system and starting from scratch, they could still use martial arts styles but with a different system. I would like that if it were done well.

It could be kind of like in Tekken in which some characters have a personal style that is derived from martial arts styles, and maybe have a base style. For example, with Sonya, her base style could be Tae Kwon Do but contain influences from Western Boxing and Kodokan Judo.

MKDA-MKA used a lot of real fighting styles and weapons, but the authenticity was poor overall, partially because of the flawed design of the fighting system itself. In MKDA for example, Snake was quite accurate in its stances and techniques, but the way some of them were done wasn't as fast and as fluid as they should have been.

Not even in Tekken will you get 100% accuracy with the styles, but at least the accuracy is better and that it's more fluid than in MK. I mean, if you're going to put in Taizu Changquan, put in Taizu Changquan, not some rigid style with crude techniques. Even if it may have some techniques in it that aren't exactly in that style, as long as the main aspects of the style are authentic and if the personalized moves and combos fit in with the aspects of the style, then it's fine. But instead, they really blundered with some of them. It's like having a style that looks like Muay Thai but calling it Aikido.

I'm sure they did try to sort out which character had which style. They did a good job with some characters (e.g. Shang Tsung). But again, they can't just slap on any style. Yes, there should be room for flexibility, but Kano having Aikido? Come on! He's a crude, undisclipined thug. Aikido is a style of peace and harmony.

Having a sense of realism and accuracy with the martial arts styles makes for good credibility, and it doesn't have to be 100% either.

Even with narrowing 3 styles to 2 per character, they still failed to create a balanced game.

I think you might be mistaken on DOA4. While I'm not much into DOA and don't know too much about it, I'm pretty sure there are more Kung Fu styles in it than Karate styles.

Going back to Scorpion, even without taking a sense of realism into account with his fighting style choice, it would still be logical for him to use the Taijutsu of his clan and not a style like Hapkido, namely because he's from a Japanese Ninja clan and the one that was founded by the creator of Ninjutsu. So for Cyrax to use it and not Scorpion, especially since Cyrax was from the rival clan, is kinda stupid.

You may be ok with any character having anything or whatever, but I'm not. There are various characters who could use various styles, but then there are some who really make a lot more sense with certain styles. That's just how I feel at least.


Actually, believe it or not MKA is more balanced then MKD was by far...trust me lol. After spending hours upon hours online, you know these things and learn from it. In MKD it was all Bo and Dairou owning that whole game, not balanced well.

However in MKA Sareena is the top tier in the whole game but she can be countered by a few characters, Dairou for one in fact I have a few matches on tape xbox live myself(toughest Dairou) against Bobby Blaze(toughest Sareena online) and you can see for yourself if you wish.

The two styles did help balance things/help along with the parries, wake up added I believe honestly, I believe judging from a "casual" point of view and judging from a "high level competitive" point of view are two different things if you see what I'm saying. I play a lot online the 3D MK's, I've learned these from lots of experience as in thousands.

Now, it's not lie that MK:DA factually IS the best 3D MK game balance wise and glitchwise but even that game like every other fighter MK and not, has top tiers.

Now, the realism with sports games well I would have to disagree with you there. I used to play baseball for highschool, and been on some a few different teams the past 5 years in casual, fun leagues. Believe me, sports games now days are realistic for a reason. Nobody likes the "arcade over the top simulator" type of sports games anymore. That's why you see games like MLB 2k and MLB the show, and Madden sell really well. People want realism, in sports it's a must.

Fighters not so much if you ask me, now the point you made on in MK, Tekken, DOA etc being realistic but not 100% realistic. Well, I think that's a given and everyone has to at some point accept that since it is afterall a video game=fiction. SF as you said is over the top fantasy with powers but different then MK. MK IMO is more realistic in a lot of ways so I agree with you on that point, but at the same time as long as someones making a video game fighting game. There's only so much level of realism you can implement, otherwise you kill the whole fun factor of video game and all of a sudden it's not a video game anymore. That's how I feel. For what you want personally, there should be no fighting game with any special moves and all fighting which is honestly why I'm a bit surprised why you don't love Tekken or VF as oppose to MK, SF, DOA SC etc. But even Tekken has a special move here, special move there. It adds fun to a fighting game. I think most here can agree to that.

With sports it's different, yeah it's a video game as well however nobody will be shooting fireballs or snapping someones neck or chopping someone else. Sports have simple rules, you either implement them well or not. The martial art styles for the most part are accurate enough, of course MK, Tekken, DOA etc can't possibly implement every single move in every single style. You know how long that would take? Now, personally I don't want to wait that long just for that reason. Just give me a good, overall some what balanced game if not pefectly balanced(doesn't exist) that's fun with a good story and I'm good to go. MK to me does all of that and good enough.

In a nutshell, although I see and respect what you're saying there's no possible way Midway or any other company for that matter can possibly accommodate what you want precisely. My opinion.

Which fan wants this style, which fan wants that style, this costume, that costume..=impossible to please everyone.

As for Noob-Saibot now, Monkey I can live with for him. I feel it fits him well.
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Sub-Zero_7th
09/20/2007 03:11 AM (UTC)
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I'm afraid you have the wrong idea.

I'm not someone who doesn't want special moves in MK games. I'm not sure how you got that idea as that is certainly not the case.

Regarding the fighting styles, they are not as accurate as you're making them out to be. Some styles are more accurate than others, and some are made up and passed off as real styles. A lot of moves are recycled amongst several styles, regardless of whether or not those styles use those moves.

Tekken has lots of special moves, but for the most part, they are done in a different fashion. I do happen to be a Tekken fan, but I'm more interested in MK. Again, I don't know where you got this notion that I don't like special moves or don't want them in MK or some nonsense like that.

And then there's this implication that I want every single move in every single style to be implemented, which is ludicrous. I never said anything of the sort, and I certainly wouldn't want that. For example, Daito Ryu is said to contain 3808 moves. Would I want all 3808 moves to be put in? Of course not! There should be more moves and combos per character in the MK games though as there is such a limit, especially with a small fraction of the movesets being useful, which is really sad.

I too want a nicely balanced fighting game. It doesn't have to be perfect. That's not what I'm looking for. Pretty much all fighting games are going to have some level of brokenness to it. However, if the fighting game is balanced enough so that the lower tiered characters can beat the higher tiered characters with actual skill and strategy, then things should be fine.

Keep in mind that this thread is about which style/styles we personally feel fit the characters the best. For reasons of logic with character concept, storyline, things like that, I felt that a reconstructed version of Shirai Ryu Taijutsu would be the perfect fit for Scorpion.

Again, the styles don't have to be 100% accurate, but that doesn't mean that they should be something like 40 or 50% accurate either. Like I said, credibility. If you're going to make a fighting game and put in real martial arts styles, then do it. Don't put in a Thai-style roundhouse kick and Northern Praying Mantis low palm strike and call it Tae Kwon Do. That's bullshit and takes away credibility.

At least with Tekken, most of the styles are pretty accurate overall in both look and feel, something that MK kind of lacked. I didn't get the feel that Snake was very deceptive or that Aikido was very defensive. You may think that no company can implement such things, but I think you're wrong. It doesn't have to be so in-depth, but again, if you're going to put in a real martial art, you should capture its feel, if only it were even a small thing.

Yeah, it's impossible to please everyone, but with some characters, either some of the choices didn't make sense (All of Kano's styles) or the styles themselves were horribly done (e.g. Shao Kahn's Tai Tzu style).

Overall, we do agree on some things, but you have made some misconceptions.
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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
09/20/2007 04:51 AM (UTC)
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Well, Kano is being talked about quite a bit between you guys, so let's do him next.

I'm actually very content with him having Xing Yi. From the stance to the moves, I just find it suits him very well. It appears to be very grounded and direct, and that's exactly what Kano is like.

I thought he was one of the characters that was given very fitting styles. Aikido didn't feel like him as much, but didn't it have a lot of grappling and throwing involved in DA? If that's the case, then I don't think that would be so bad for him because I can imagine him being the type that would fight with such moves as well.

I think Sub_7th said that Aikido doesn't suit him because it's about peace or harmony. That makes sense, but ultimately I just care about how well the styles' vibes match with the characters' appearances and personalities. In that sense, I don't think Aikido was that bad for him.
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Sub-Zero_7th
09/20/2007 05:45 AM (UTC)
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I feel that styles like San Shou, Vale Tudo, and Shootfighting suit him. To me, Kano is the type of character who is aggressive, brutal, and uses somewhat less refined techniques.

Xing Yi is definitely more of a direct and aggressive style, but I don't like it on him mainly because it's an internal martial art, and it has a sophistication to it. It's not something that is reliant on brute strength and crude tactics. I think that perhaps someone like Reiko would be better fitted with a style like this.

Aikido is very defensive, and yes, like I said before, it's about peace and harmony. It's a style that uses a lot of circular movements, joint-locks, throws, and pinning techniques. Both Aikido and Hapkido are derived from Daito Ryu, a Japanese martial art that teaches Aikijujutsu.

I too would see Kano using some grappling, but not the kind that Aikido uses, which takes on a very defensive and peaceful approach, using the opponent's force against him and neutralizing as well as deflecting. It requires a great deal of discipline and sophistication. Kano's personality is the complete opposite of what Aikido stands for, and for Morihei Ueshiba's name to be used as being the founder of the Black Dragon is disgraceful and downright idiotic.

The Butterfly Knives are Chinese martial arts weapons, often taught in more of the Southern styles of Kung Fu, such as Wing Chun and Hung Gar. It's stated that Kano hates the Shaolin and uses the Butterfly Knives his own way, yet in the game, he uses them much like in the Shaolin style, which makes no sense. Again, I see him as being aggressive and direct, using simple and rather crude tactics.

For his unarmed styles, well...I'll break it down like this.

San Shou is a modern Chinese martial art developed and taught to the Chinese military. It's a simple, direct style that draws influence from Shuai Chiao (Chinese Grappling), Muay Thai, and probably some other styles. It is often and erroneously also known as "Chinese Kickboxing", due to it being Chinese and having similarities to Muay Thai and Kickboxing. However, because of influences from styles like Shuai Chiao, it contains grappling, throwing, and takedowns as well.

I like the stance that's used and gives Kano that sort of brawler-ish vibe. And with him once being one of Shao Kahn's generals and this being a style taught to soldiers, I think it would be a good fit for him and would kind of go along with the Butterfly Knives.

Vale Tudo is a Portuguese term for "anything goes". While some believe it to just be a term for the "no holds barred" matches, it is believed by others to be an actual fighting style, derived from Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Shootfighting is a modern Japanese martial art that is similar to Vale Tudo and San Shou. It is derived from Muay Thai and Catch Wrestling, combining brutal strikes and kicks with takedowns and ground techniques. Whether or not the backstory with him living in Japan is still canon, it would still fit him, imo.
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mkflegend
09/20/2007 06:47 PM (UTC)
0
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
I'm afraid you have the wrong idea.

I'm not someone who doesn't want special moves in MK games. I'm not sure how you got that idea as that is certainly not the case.

Regarding the fighting styles, they are not as accurate as you're making them out to be. Some styles are more accurate than others, and some are made up and passed off as real styles. A lot of moves are recycled amongst several styles, regardless of whether or not those styles use those moves.

Tekken has lots of special moves, but for the most part, they are done in a different fashion. I do happen to be a Tekken fan, but I'm more interested in MK. Again, I don't know where you got this notion that I don't like special moves or don't want them in MK or some nonsense like that.

And then there's this implication that I want every single move in every single style to be implemented, which is ludicrous. I never said anything of the sort, and I certainly wouldn't want that. For example, Daito Ryu is said to contain 3808 moves. Would I want all 3808 moves to be put in? Of course not! There should be more moves and combos per character in the MK games though as there is such a limit, especially with a small fraction of the movesets being useful, which is really sad.

I too want a nicely balanced fighting game. It doesn't have to be perfect. That's not what I'm looking for. Pretty much all fighting games are going to have some level of brokenness to it. However, if the fighting game is balanced enough so that the lower tiered characters can beat the higher tiered characters with actual skill and strategy, then things should be fine.

Keep in mind that this thread is about which style/styles we personally feel fit the characters the best. For reasons of logic with character concept, storyline, things like that, I felt that a reconstructed version of Shirai Ryu Taijutsu would be the perfect fit for Scorpion.

Again, the styles don't have to be 100% accurate, but that doesn't mean that they should be something like 40 or 50% accurate either. Like I said, credibility. If you're going to make a fighting game and put in real martial arts styles, then do it. Don't put in a Thai-style roundhouse kick and Northern Praying Mantis low palm strike and call it Tae Kwon Do. That's bullshit and takes away credibility.

At least with Tekken, most of the styles are pretty accurate overall in both look and feel, something that MK kind of lacked. I didn't get the feel that Snake was very deceptive or that Aikido was very defensive. You may think that no company can implement such things, but I think you're wrong. It doesn't have to be so in-depth, but again, if you're going to put in a real martial art, you should capture its feel, if only it were even a small thing.

Yeah, it's impossible to please everyone, but with some characters, either some of the choices didn't make sense (All of Kano's styles) or the styles themselves were horribly done (e.g. Shao Kahn's Tai Tzu style).

Overall, we do agree on some things, but you have made some misconceptions.



I know you didn't say per-se "no special moves" but I'm surprised in a way since you want "extreme realism" and authenticity with the fighting styles but I think at this point every MK fan has to admit, the special moves add flavor to the series where some other fighters IMO fail miserably with special moves...(MK and SF use special moves the best IMO)

MK's always done that right based off the characters orgins I must say. So, I didn't mean to assume that concept it was just the idea I got from your posts on "authenticity" therefore I figured you wanted to rid MK of special moves since technically that doesn't exist but thanks for clearing that up.

Now regarding the fighting styles, made up ones more accurate with some then others yeah I agree and don't deny that. Still, though MK 3D's, Tekken and DOA have portrayed the styles they use in the most realistic fashion I've seen yet in a fighting game in general. Agreed? That was my point, I'm not saying they're perfect but that would be impossible since no game is "perfect" afterall right? And Tekken isn't perfect either, there are things in tekken that aren't there like the expanded styles that are in MK or at least introduced in MK. The special moves in tekken IMO are weak compared to MK and SF games. Personally, outside of MK and SF I'd prefer DOA>>Tekken

Tekken technically though from a style point of view has an edge on all fighters since it's always been 3D, chances are if Tekken went 2d it wouldn't be good IMO so they stuck with 3D all the time, games to me haven't changed that much over time in my opinion.

But yeah Guys like Moloch, Goro, Kintaro etc of course they'll have made up styles or even Drahmin. It fits them well though according to the fictional universe of MK, ya know? Like Oni for Drahmin coming from Netherrealm is a nobrainer IMO and I have no problem with it in MK:DA. I could see if they gave those guys karate or something silly that obviously wouldn't fit them lol. Instead they gave them nothing at all or made up styles which was the right route to go with characters like that.

Kano's style Aikido was interesting and I liked it personally for him, I had no real beef with it. The point you made on a company can implement it right, well matter of opinion. In mine, if you don't leave room for error and fiction since it is a video game afterall then you're not doing your job right as a video game company.

Which brings me back to my sports point compared to other video games.

But yeah, we agree and disagree about some things in a nutshell. It's fine I see what your'e saying. I'm sure you see mine as well.







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Sub-Zero_7th
09/20/2007 07:28 PM (UTC)
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I'm not asking for extreme realism, but I do want authenticity with the fighting styles, otherwise, it's pointless to put them in as making them so inaccurate (e.g. Tai Tzu, Baji Quan) takes away credibility. They should've just given Shao Kahn a made up style if they weren't going to be serious about putting in Tai Tzu.

Yes, the special moves add flavor to the series, and I never had a problem with the implement of them. I wouldn't quite say that MK has always done things right with the special moves based off of the characters' origins. Scorpion is supposed to be good at Shurikenjutsu, but he has never had a special move involving the use of shuriken. Kira blatantly borrowing moves from Kano and Sonya was ridiculous. I'm sure there are some other examples, but overall, I have always liked having special moves to use, and I wouldn't want that taken away.

Regarding the styles, I said that some styles are more accurate than others, not that made up ones are more accurate than the real styles or whatever. No, I don't agree that the 3D MKs have portrayed the styles and their use in the most realistic fashion. That's absolute bullshit. The best I would say would be the Virtua Fighter games, even though I don't care for that series too much.

Again, I'm not expecting perfection, but there should be accuracy with the styles for good credibility. And again, if the style overall is pretty accurate enough, then that's fine by me. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate.

I don't have a problem with the more monsterous characters like Drahmin using made-up styles, as long as they're done well.

About Kano and Aikido, well, it's your personal preference that you like it for him and that you have no beef with it. But I have a big problem with it, namely because Kano is not peaceful or harmonious, and I don't see him with a very defensive gameplay style. Instead, I see him as a direct and aggressive fighter, using crude and dirty tactics, especially since he's bad-mannered and undisciplined.

No, I do think that a company can implement styles well. Look at the Virtua Fighter games and how fluid and accurate things are. MK's style portrayals are garbage compared to the stuff in Virtua Fighter, and again, I don't even care all that much for the Virtua Fighter series.

But even Tekken, which isn't 100% accurate, implements the styles well and has good fluidity and accuracy overall. Personally, I'm much more into Tekken than Virtua Fighter, and in terms of gameplay between Tekken and Mortal Kombat, I would say that Tekken's is better, but I have fun with both.

To sum it up, I want there to be a nice blend of realistic and unrealistic elements, but the fighting styles and weapons should have a good deal of accuracy to it, otherwise, it's pointless to put them in. With some weapons, things can be a bit more flexible compared to unarmed styles, but it depends on the weapon itself.

For the fighting styles, if they're going to put in Tai Tzu, they should put in Tai Tzu, not a slow, rigid style using brute strength and crude tactics. If they're going to put in Baji Quan, I want to see Baji Quan, with its various elbow strikes and stomping action, not something made up in which the practicioner is in a one-legged stance doing flowery movements. Not actually putting in the style but calling it by its name anyway is stupid and takes away credibility.

I think you just don't understand the point I'm making regarding the styles, because you think that MK portrays them pretty well and that the style choices are fine, even Kano with Aikido.
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mkflegend
09/21/2007 02:38 AM (UTC)
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Well, that's actually one thing most people are ignorant about. VF IS and always will be the "true" first 3D fighter as far as I'm concerned, Tekken copied everything VF had and simply took credit for it. Weak IMO and people talk about MK? ha, ha...

At least MK didn't steal other ideas and make it so obvious like Tekken did after VF they've always been in their own class with storyline, blood, gore, characters everything. Now, don't get me wrong MK was no doubt inspired by SF which Boon even admits but is it anything like SF? no. I mean other then the older 2D comparisons, that's all. MK is a hell of a lot darker with finishing moves.

That's why I like it much more then the other fighters to begin with.

FTR, VF and Tekken never made a 2D game why? Most likely because they don't know how to make a 2D game well, like say the old MK's, SF's etc. Noticed they've always been 3D.

MK, the 3D ones HAVE implemented a lot of styles well I've read up on some and also have a friend that used to take some choy lee fut/choy lay fut. He told me they just limited the moves but a lot of that style is accurate and he noticed that they spelled it differently in MKD and MKA other then that, he was fine with it. Now he took this style for 3 years, not for nothing but I think he knows a thing or two on a style he'd studied.

I knew another guy that I met online that used to play MKD a lot and he told me on mic all the time that he took kickboxing and liked the way they did Kobra so apparently there's people out there who disagree with you on "implementing correctly" on the styles.

Just saying, these are fellows like yourself that follow martial arts or have taken them.

Honestly, I don't care which fighter is out there there is no such things as "perfection" with styles, you even said yourself a few posts ago that even TEKKEN can't implement them correctly 100%, now you're saying otherwise?

I've played Tekken casually, as I've said before they limit styles and it's not perfect either just like MK or any other fighter.

Still, MK was the first fighter when they went 3D to at least have "multiple" fighting styles and not just one which I like. MK wasn't the first to implement authentic fighting styles, not denying that but they did implement them in a way like no other with the weapon and fighting style. SC btw is a lot different their system. MK is on the command switch which is obviously different. And Tekken and DOA have one style per- character obviously last time I checked.

Now on the MK has not always been good with special moves, I'd have to disagree there. Scorpion is an undead ninja, if you're undead you can kind of have any power if you think about it. Again, that's something personally if you put a level of limitations on AFTER you're dead then to me that's just silly.

I mean, dude has a skull, shoots fire/breathes fire and has a spear....to me that's really not bad. I've seen a lot more out there scenarios in other series.

I mean ever watch DBZ? Everyone has virtually the same power as oppose to different powers instead of different "levels" of powers...

SF has some guys with powers that IMO lack originality like take the karate guys Ken, Ryu, evil Ryu, Dan, Akuma etc. All of them have a fireball, dans is limited distance but still...at least the ninjas pallette swaps in the MK series they all have different moves fit for their power or background...see what I mean?

Honestly, I don't see the big deal from the comparisons I've read up on the mk team merely limited the moves for each style, so what? Like you said earlier man there's no way any video game can possibly put EVERY single move for EVERY single style.

Honestly, lol at this point we should just agree to disagree because I know you're firm on your view and so am I.

Ok? Deal dude?





tongue
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Sub-Zero_7th
09/21/2007 03:30 PM (UTC)
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I know what you mean when it comes to Tekken copying things off of Virtua Fighter, but at least Tekken has depth and relative balance to it, unlike in MK. At least Tekken has its own control schemes, giving some separation from Virtua Fighter.

Around the time that games like VF and Tekken came out, that was around the time of the PS1's birth. So they figured that they wanted to do something different and with a 3D fighter, they could do more, which they did.

Regarding the styles in MK, like I said before, some styles are more accurate than others. About Kickboxing in particular, I can see some accuracy, but the high jabs should've really had a better recovery time as jabs are meant to come out and recovery quickly.

*sighs* Again, I said that I was NOT expecting perfection with the styles in any game, even in MK. Yes, I said that Tekken doesn't implement all of the styles 100% correctly, but you missed the point I was getting at. The point was that at least the styles overall are much more accurate than in MK's.

No, MK wasn't the first 3D fighter to have multiple styles. In Tekken, there are characters whose styles come from more than one martial art. For example, Paul Phoenix's style is derived from a form of Karate as well as Judo. Lei Wulong can switch to his different animal styles and even Drunken style.

About Scorpion, like I said before, he's supposed to be skilled at Shurikenjutsu, but yet he's never had a shuriken-related special move. I don't think Scorpion should just have any power just because he's undead. That would make him more of a bullshit character than he is now. His spear is not really a spear, and it's kind of silly for them to call it that. Oh well, the name has stuck, but still, it's not a spear and never was.

Yes, I've watched DBZ before.

I know what you mean regarding the different "Karate" guys.

Yes, I said that there's no way any video game can possibly put every single move from every single style, but again, you're a missing a point I'm trying to make. The movesets for each of the styles in the MK games are simply way too limited, and only a small fraction of them are useful, which is even worse.

At the time that when MKDA came out, it looks really bad for the moves to be limited and for a fraction of them to have limited usefulness, because Tekken, VF, SC, and DOA have already been out and they have more moves, more depth, better fluidity than in MKDA-MKA, making those games feel so behind the times.

In terms of the styles, compare Jax's Muay Thai to Bruce Irvin's or Sonya's Tae Kwon Do to Hwoarang's and Baek's. Not only are the versions in Tekken deeper and more accurate, but they are more fluid as well. If Tekken and Virtua Fighter can do a good job with their styles and fighting system, why can't MK?

Yes, we have to agree to disagree on another subject, but still, I don't think you quite grasp what I'm getting at here.

Anyway, I think another style that would be good for Kano would be Panantukan, which is Filipino Boxing. It is not often taught by itself and is usually a component in some Filipino martial arts. Panantukan is similar to Western Boxing and Muay Thai and has a very street-oriented mentality, using dirty tactics like shoving, headbutts, groin kicks, etc.
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Chrome
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About Me

09/21/2007 07:59 PM (UTC)
0
http://torquato.deviantart.com/art/Alternate-Armageddon-Kano-39893438

I kinda like Aikido on Kano, it gives him an edgy and suggested contemplatory side that would make him less of a hardass goon.
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Sub-Zero_7th
09/21/2007 08:46 PM (UTC)
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Chrome Wrote:
http://torquato.deviantart.com/art/Alternate-Armageddon-Kano-39893438

I kinda like Aikido on Kano, it gives him an edgy and suggested contemplatory side that would make him less of a hardass goon.


I've seen that before.

I still don't feel that Aikido suits Kano. Why the hell would the founder of a criminal organization create a defensive style that represents peace and harmony?
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mkflegend
09/21/2007 10:23 PM (UTC)
0
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
I know what you mean when it comes to Tekken copying things off of Virtua Fighter, but at least Tekken has depth and relative balance to it, unlike in MK. At least Tekken has its own control schemes, giving some separation from Virtua Fighter.

Around the time that games like VF and Tekken came out, that was around the time of the PS1's birth. So they figured that they wanted to do something different and with a 3D fighter, they could do more, which they did.

Regarding the styles in MK, like I said before, some styles are more accurate than others. About Kickboxing in particular, I can see some accuracy, but the high jabs should've really had a better recovery time as jabs are meant to come out and recovery quickly.

*sighs* Again, I said that I was NOT expecting perfection with the styles in any game, even in MK. Yes, I said that Tekken doesn't implement all of the styles 100% correctly, but you missed the point I was getting at. The point was that at least the styles overall are much more accurate than in MK's.

No, MK wasn't the first 3D fighter to have multiple styles. In Tekken, there are characters whose styles come from more than one martial art. For example, Paul Phoenix's style is derived from a form of Karate as well as Judo. Lei Wulong can switch to his different animal styles and even Drunken style.

About Scorpion, like I said before, he's supposed to be skilled at Shurikenjutsu, but yet he's never had a shuriken-related special move. I don't think Scorpion should just have any power just because he's undead. That would make him more of a bullshit character than he is now. His spear is not really a spear, and it's kind of silly for them to call it that. Oh well, the name has stuck, but still, it's not a spear and never was.

Yes, I've watched DBZ before.

I know what you mean regarding the different "Karate" guys.

Yes, I said that there's no way any video game can possibly put every single move from every single style, but again, you're a missing a point I'm trying to make. The movesets for each of the styles in the MK games are simply way too limited, and only a small fraction of them are useful, which is even worse.

At the time that when MKDA came out, it looks really bad for the moves to be limited and for a fraction of them to have limited usefulness, because Tekken, VF, SC, and DOA have already been out and they have more moves, more depth, better fluidity than in MKDA-MKA, making those games feel so behind the times.

In terms of the styles, compare Jax's Muay Thai to Bruce Irvin's or Sonya's Tae Kwon Do to Hwoarang's and Baek's. Not only are the versions in Tekken deeper and more accurate, but they are more fluid as well. If Tekken and Virtua Fighter can do a good job with their styles and fighting system, why can't MK?

Yes, we have to agree to disagree on another subject, but still, I don't think you quite grasp what I'm getting at here.

Anyway, I think another style that would be good for Kano would be Panantukan, which is Filipino Boxing. It is not often taught by itself and is usually a component in some Filipino martial arts. Panantukan is similar to Western Boxing and Muay Thai and has a very street-oriented mentality, using dirty tactics like shoving, headbutts, groin kicks, etc.



I disagree on a few points here, techically no fighter is "authentic" on that realistic level since come on lol all fighters have SOME specials if not all of them. Including tekken, and I'm sure you now as well as I do dude that no martial art style gives anyone power to shoot fireballs at anyone or teleport. MK, SF, Tekken etc.

The storyline in MK is awesome and owns the other fighters hands down, they're jokes compared to MK and lack serious depth.

You misundestood what I said a little bit on the fighting styles, MK is the first fighter to implement them in a fashion where you can switch on the go 3 different styles, at will if you may. There is no other fighter that has that option while in gameplay mode. I even said that MK wasn't the first to implement authentic styles and that VF THEN tekken was...

Your point on Scorpion virtually can be said about any fictional fighting game character that possesses special powers, matter of opinion man. It fits his storyline to me because well for one, when he died he went where? To hell..thus why he has "firelike" powers. The skull face is to show he's undead, again makes perfect sense to me and the spear whatever call it what you want. To some it's a speak, harpoon, undead snake thing whatever. It's a spear with a rope that Scorpion can manipulate more or less. It doesn't really matter what it's called. And if you have a beef with scorpion which I know you're not too fond of him to begin with, then what about say...Spawn? Talk about "out there" Spawn is worse then Scorpion with "powers"

That's like saying, hmm Sub-Zero is it a "ice ball" or "freeze ball" who cares? lol

I do understand what you're saying about the "fighting styles" being limited but come on? I can tell you right now since I play the MK's at high level, nobody is going to USE all of those moves...there was another thread on here some where in the MKA about the 3D MK's pointing out the exact opposite of which you want. The thread was about "too many moves" in the styles now personally, in MKD I must say I agree with some styles..not all. I know you're saying "tekken does a better job" then MK in that department with styles, I'm saying obviously because Tekken hasn't changed in that concept the past 4 games. For MK doing it and being new at it compared to Tekken, they didn't do a bad job. Neither game is perfect, I know you're not saying "I don't want perfection" and all but it sounds like that's what you want. A fighting game that's practically perfect martial art wise. That's the vibe I'm getting.

In MKA I have no problem what so ever since they cut down movesets, styles etc for balance. With such a huge cast that's necessary. Ever play CvM2? Broken game also with infinites, glitches. You're acting as if there's like 10 moves per style or less, there's more like 20-30+ in MK:DA and MKD you do know that right? Thats not exactly a small number and when you're playing online players will only use and utilize the "important" moves in the move sets within the fighting styles. MKA they cut that down for balance obviously by giving everyone 2 styles(or none depending on character) with no long branch combos that were in MKDA and MKD and added some combos for "air kombat"

I know this factually, like I said earlier I've lost count as to how many hours I've spent on MKD and MKA combined but let's put it this way. Over 4, 000 wins in MKD one one account, 2, 000 wins on another and 800 on my third. That was in MKD, in MKA they replenish the rank/wins/loses monthy so only way I keep track is by writing them down and I'm well into the thousands.

I can tell you this easily, people that play these games at high level will also tell ya that the 40 moves+ most of the time is useless when playing online. Why? Well, as I said before you're not going to use every move to win, only the important moves such as pokes with distance, safe moves, good fast sweeps or low hit moves etc. Also, although the 3D MK's are different then the 2D MK's that never stopped the older MK's from being popular and playing at high level. Point is you don't need to make a game with 2000 moves per-style in order to have fun with it.

Nobody cares if there's a "chop" missing in a particular style or a kick or something, they give the players enough to work with. Personally, I don't care about this style thing. Let them limit the styles, it works fine for me. Let them fix the "glitches" like OTF's and free throws as well as balance. These are a lot more important then worrying about movesets in styles by far.

Tekken isn't perfect either, the only reason Tekken is more familiar with styles is because they've always as I've said before made 3D fighting games with martial arts, still the game lacks that "ommp" that MK and SF gives. It's the same game virtually the past 5 years only with minor improvements and the PSP T5:R version is a bit broken because of that one none arcade character. So, yes even Tekken has flaws.

No game is perfect not even tekken. Also, tekken lacks online play but will finally go online with T6. Bout time...you know Tekken and SC are officially the last fighters to go online right? Yes there's lag and frame rates and all that, but just to be clear every game lags online sometimes. I've never played one that didn't. It's a sacrifice you make to expand competition. In that department, MK, SF, DOA and VF are ahead of Namco. Nobody can deny that. The story sucks in the other fighters and have no depth compared to MK's over the years. The characters in MK are also more appealing if you ask me. SF characters are also pretty cool , but Tekken, VF ehhh..blah

I am grasping your points, I just disagree with some of them and while to some people this fighter or that fighter might do a better job in one area compared to another, no fighter is perfect or without flaws.

That's where the whole "fiction and video game" concept comes in. You need some freedom to add or take away.









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Sub-Zero_7th
09/22/2007 12:34 AM (UTC)
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The first bit of what you're saying is invalid as I'm talking about the styles themselves, not authenticity in regards to overall realism.

The storyline in MK, while I like it overall, has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Ok, I see what you mean regarding the switching of multiple styles in the way MK does it. I already understood that other point.

About Scorpion, I'm not against him having a skull head and using fire-like powers nor do I feel that it doesn't make sense. I'm saying that he should've had a shuriken-related special move, but he's never had one, despite the mention of him being a master of Shurikenjutsu.

The point you're trying to make on the spear and the comparison with Sub-Zero's freeze projectile is invalid, because Scorpion simply does not throw a spear at his opponent. He never has and still doesn't. Why? It's because what he throws is NOT a spear. In the older MKs, he throw more of a harpoon, which is kind of spear-like, but it's still not a spear. In the newer MK games, he throws a roped Kunai.

I think you still misunderstand my feelings regarding Scorpion. It's not a matter of not being fond of him to begin with. I simply despise the new Scorpion and still prefer the old one.

The movesets shouldn't be that limited. There's so much more that could be done. I know that noone is going to use all of the moves, but high-level gameplay should not bog down to 4-5 moves being used over and over.

You may still get the idea that I want perfection and a practically perfect martial art game, but you're still mistaken and don't truly understand.

I don't have a problem with them having 2 styles in MKA, and I actually like that. But there's still that limitation and lack of depth. 20-30 moves per style in MKDA and MKD? Maybe if you're counting the combos, but excluding them, you really don't have all that much, and even less that's worth using. The bigger problem lies within the depth of the moves in the MK games. I wouldn't necessarily mind having 15-20 moves per moveset if there was more depth and usefuless to those moves.

I know you don't care about the fighting style thing. Even though not all moves are going to be worth using in any fighting game, it's still nice to have a larger array of moves to use from. I don't care if there's a "chop" missing in a style. You still miss the point even though you say you understand.

I know that Tekken and other games have their flaws. I wasn't making them out to be perfect, despite what you may have been thinking.

About Tekken virtually being the same game, I can agree with that to an extent, but the same also applies to MK and SF. With MK, you have the HP, LP, LK, HK, BL control scheme in MK1-MKG, and in MK3-MKG, you have the Run feature and chain combos. With MKDA-MKA, you pretty much have the same type of system to each other with some changes.

Yes, I'm aware about Tekken and SC being late in terms of going online. I think you're kind of making a small deal in regards to the lagging with those games if they were to be put online. It's not the same as with MK going online.

With the story and the characters, again, I like MK's better overall, but it is irrelevant to this thread, which happens to instead be about which fighting style/styles we feel fit which character.

I think you're defending MK too much, and again, I know that no fighter is perfect or without flaws. I have problems with MK, problems with Tekken, etc.

Yes, I know it's fiction, but they are putting in real martial arts in there and a good fair bit of it should be accurate in not only moves and stance but also in the feel. Bruce Irvin from Tekken, for example, has a Shoryuken looking move that he does with the second move of his DF + 3, 1 combo, which I seriously doubt exists in any style of Muay Thai, but you know what? I don't mind it, because his style overall is pretty damn accurate in look and feel.

So I don't mind some moves being added in to a style that doesn't really use them (e.g. having some more kicks added into Tam Tuie and Phoenix Eye, which use very few kicks) as long as the style overall is accurate enough.

But let's get back to the actual topic here, which like I said is about what we feel is the best fighting style for that character. I still don't feel that Aikido suits Kano, because it stands against for what he and the Black Dragon clan as a whole represents. I can understand some people wanting to think outside the box, but Kano is simply undisciplined and definitely not harmonious. Perhaps if his character were developed and explored better, then maybe he could use something like Aikido. But the problem here lies within Aikido being founded by the founder of the Black Dragon, which is ironic.
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Iori9
09/22/2007 04:57 AM (UTC)
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How about you guys debate AND talk about the topic? That helps a little for the topic creator so you can at least have something to do with the topic.

1st Style:I think Fu Jo Pai would match his personality more, whenever I see that stance, its the person is going to murder someone, and Kano is ruthless so I go with that.

2nd Style: Dragon matched Jarek in a way so I think it might match him...I don't know really...

3rd Style... I guess 2 Machetes... not so sure about this one either.
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mkflegend
09/22/2007 06:04 PM (UTC)
0
Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
The first bit of what you're saying is invalid as I'm talking about the styles themselves, not authenticity in regards to overall realism.

The storyline in MK, while I like it overall, has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Ok, I see what you mean regarding the switching of multiple styles in the way MK does it. I already understood that other point.

About Scorpion, I'm not against him having a skull head and using fire-like powers nor do I feel that it doesn't make sense. I'm saying that he should've had a shuriken-related special move, but he's never had one, despite the mention of him being a master of Shurikenjutsu.

The point you're trying to make on the spear and the comparison with Sub-Zero's freeze projectile is invalid, because Scorpion simply does not throw a spear at his opponent. He never has and still doesn't. Why? It's because what he throws is NOT a spear. In the older MKs, he throw more of a harpoon, which is kind of spear-like, but it's still not a spear. In the newer MK games, he throws a roped Kunai.

I think you still misunderstand my feelings regarding Scorpion. It's not a matter of not being fond of him to begin with. I simply despise the new Scorpion and still prefer the old one.

The movesets shouldn't be that limited. There's so much more that could be done. I know that noone is going to use all of the moves, but high-level gameplay should not bog down to 4-5 moves being used over and over.

You may still get the idea that I want perfection and a practically perfect martial art game, but you're still mistaken and don't truly understand.

I don't have a problem with them having 2 styles in MKA, and I actually like that. But there's still that limitation and lack of depth. 20-30 moves per style in MKDA and MKD? Maybe if you're counting the combos, but excluding them, you really don't have all that much, and even less that's worth using. The bigger problem lies within the depth of the moves in the MK games. I wouldn't necessarily mind having 15-20 moves per moveset if there was more depth and usefuless to those moves.

I know you don't care about the fighting style thing. Even though not all moves are going to be worth using in any fighting game, it's still nice to have a larger array of moves to use from. I don't care if there's a "chop" missing in a style. You still miss the point even though you say you understand.

I know that Tekken and other games have their flaws. I wasn't making them out to be perfect, despite what you may have been thinking.

About Tekken virtually being the same game, I can agree with that to an extent, but the same also applies to MK and SF. With MK, you have the HP, LP, LK, HK, BL control scheme in MK1-MKG, and in MK3-MKG, you have the Run feature and chain combos. With MKDA-MKA, you pretty much have the same type of system to each other with some changes.

Yes, I'm aware about Tekken and SC being late in terms of going online. I think you're kind of making a small deal in regards to the lagging with those games if they were to be put online. It's not the same as with MK going online.

With the story and the characters, again, I like MK's better overall, but it is irrelevant to this thread, which happens to instead be about which fighting style/styles we feel fit which character.

I think you're defending MK too much, and again, I know that no fighter is perfect or without flaws. I have problems with MK, problems with Tekken, etc.

Yes, I know it's fiction, but they are putting in real martial arts in there and a good fair bit of it should be accurate in not only moves and stance but also in the feel. Bruce Irvin from Tekken, for example, has a Shoryuken looking move that he does with the second move of his DF + 3, 1 combo, which I seriously doubt exists in any style of Muay Thai, but you know what? I don't mind it, because his style overall is pretty damn accurate in look and feel.

So I don't mind some moves being added in to a style that doesn't really use them (e.g. having some more kicks added into Tam Tuie and Phoenix Eye, which use very few kicks) as long as the style overall is accurate enough.

But let's get back to the actual topic here, which like I said is about what we feel is the best fighting style for that character. I still don't feel that Aikido suits Kano, because it stands against for what he and the Black Dragon clan as a whole represents. I can understand some people wanting to think outside the box, but Kano is simply undisciplined and definitely not harmonious. Perhaps if his character were developed and explored better, then maybe he could use something like Aikido. But the problem here lies within Aikido being founded by the founder of the Black Dragon, which is ironic.



I totally understand in fact, I'm just saying the way you're going on about the styles and movesets most would get the impression that you want "a perfect game" as far as fighting styles. I don't think you seem to understand how demanding you sound, I'm not saying you're bad or have attitude but you're the only person on this site that I know takes this "fighting style" thing so serious. I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying at all about the video game concept compared to reality.

It's a game, remember a video game again you need some flexibility since it's a game not real life martial arts. That's why whatever they implement in MK, Tekken, SF whatever will never be 100% accurate as far as I'm concerned.

Ok, the storyline thing does have nothing do with the thread. Agreed, I only brought that up as a point on why Tekken and other fighters also have flaws. That was one of them.

The scorpion move well, it's been known as a few different things. It really doesn't matter because in the movies it's not a spear, harpoon or a roped Kunai. It's an organic creature that Scorpion controls and is apart of Scorpion. Definitely in there for "eye candy" but still as far as the movies, TV shows it's not any of them. In the games though, roped spear, roped Kunai or Harpoon=same thing more or less. Not the exact same thing but more or less it's the same conclusion. He throws it/shoots it from his hand and impales his foe partially then yanks them over to him.

The Sub-Zero ice ball move was a good comparison if you think about it, afterall they're both projectiles right? You see you're even mentioned martial arts in special moves, totally different scenario dude. Styles are one thing, special moves another.

The movesets should have a descent about of moves, I agree but personally in MK:DA and MKD they had more then enough. Again, you're speaking to someone who's spent the first 24 hours online when MKD came out, I called out of work to play these games online for hours lol. Then in time I've put in wayyy too much time into them. Believe me, I've played the best guys, managed against them and I can tell you this factually. All of those moves are NOT necessarily. In MKA it was good, they cut it down for balance and if they didn't it would have been even more broken. I'm aware of the flaws of MKA, trust me it would have been worse if they did that. Now, MK:DA was very well done balane wise and glitch wise but MKD and MKA are similar and they drift away a bit in ways from MK:DA.

Now I know everyone doesn't play online hardcore but even the casual fans, there's a lot of other important things in the game that needs to be covered first as I said earlier such as balance, least amount of glitches etc.

Like I said the whole fiction thing yes, I know they use martial art styles but it's just that. Fiction. Without that fantasy freedom there, you'll fail at making good, exciting video game which is the point of it to begin with. I think most of the styles are very accurate enough, but then that brings me back to my initial point. No fighter is perfect.

Ok, fine we'll get back on topic it's good to just agree to disagree then.

About Kano, I still like his Aikido personally. Other styles for him, ehh I'm not too sure but I like that one for him. Then again I'm not really too fond of Kano to begin with overall but I'd say something a killer/assassin would master. Perhaps a style with "death moves" in it or something.

Or something that's in an aggressive nature perhaps to fit him since he's a maniac, killer and evil and all that. Something aggressive that a lunatic would use lol.

Ok, I think it might be a good idea perhaps to move onto a different character then. I was thinking perhaps either Shinnok, Raiden, Baraka and Reptile perhaps? Just a few characters I was thinking about in.

It's obviously QueenSindel(The Bitch's) thread so she puts up the characters randomly, just a suggestion though. I also like the fact that it's random in a way because it's probably just better that way in this case.

I just figured I'd list some characters to help out. Did we do Rain yet?
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Sub-Zero_7th
09/22/2007 06:35 PM (UTC)
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I'm not really fond of Kano either. For someone who is a killer, I doubt they would use something like Aikido. Perhaps it's somewhat excusable for Nina and Anna Williams as they learned it from their mother, but in MK, Aikido is the trademark style of the Black Dragon, a criminal organization, which still doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I'm pretty sure that QueenSindel(TheBitch) already did Reptile and Rain.
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mkflegend
09/22/2007 06:43 PM (UTC)
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Yeah, perhaps as you said in the MK universe Aikido is a mandatory style that all their members must master or perhaps train whatever.

Obviously, we don't know which styles exactly each clan, group teaches and trains in this case the Black Dragon but I'm actually a bit surprised every member doesn't have Dragon, I know Jarek has Dragon in MKA which IMO was an interesting move. It fit him well as far as I'm concerned. I know Sub had that style(probably because of the Dragon Medallion partially) I think Dragon fits Jarek well.

But yeah onto Kano again, he should definitely have something aggressive on top of his clan training.
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