Relating your self to something, without actually having experienced so, is going by basis of Assumption, is it not?

I've never experienced anything of the sort.

MK is fiction, therefore, it can't be related to in any sort of relevance.

welp, this all went to hell didn't it? That means that I can interpret Kitana being afraid of Mileena, have a love hate relationship with Kano, secretly wants to kill Johnny Cage and treats Kahn like a 10 year old treats their dad. Oh, and she dreams of owning Disneyland one day because in my imagination she loves Mickey

I have a feeling this is going to turn into a shouting contest. Or caps lock contest.

It's actually pretty easy. Helps if you know something about characterization, storytelling, and plot structure.

You can actually learn more about a character with a few lines of text than a five minute cut-scene. While you may not know the character's temperament or specific quirks...you can paint a fairly decent picture of a character based with sufficient background information.
And maybe then, you can at least ball park their basic disposition.

Key things to remember like characterization, background, conflict, and choices in the face of conflict. Action defines character.

To relate to someone is just to be able to imagine how they feel.

ANY fictional character can be related to. People do it ALL THE TIME. To say otherwise is blatant ignorance.

And once again, XD proves to be the only man in the room other than me who knows even the most basic things about reading and writing for fiction.

There are some seriously nitpicky people around here. (By here I suppose I mean the internet.) Will someone just FINISH HIM already?!



lol

You, yourself, cannot relate to Shao Kahn; you're not an emperor.

You, yourself, cannot relate to Scorpion; You're not a Spectre OR a Ninja. Your family wasn't killed by a sorcerer.

You're not a Cryomancer, Monk, Tarkata, Assassin, Necromancer, Movie Star, Cyborg, an enigmatic shadow, Saurion, or anything of the sort.

You can't relate to any of this, to do so, would be through assumption.

You're not the character, therefore, you'll never know how they feel.

Okay, so if I were to take an ending like, oh say, Kung Lao in MK2:

Bio: A former Shaolin Monk and a member of the White Lotus society, he is the last descendant of the Great Kung Lao who was defeated by Goro 500 years ago. Realizing the danger of the Outworld menace he joins Liu Kang in entering Shao Kahn's contest.

Sounds generic so far. A good guy with a famous ancestor.

Ending: A former Shaolin Monk alongside Liu Kang, Kung Lao also grieves the loss of their Shaolin brothers. He realizes that his ultimate fate lies within the dark realm of the Outworld. He defeats his Outworld opponents until he emerges the supreme champion.

Okay, he's sad his monk friends died. In his ending he beats "Outworld Opponents." Cool. What's there to analyze now?

Now his MK3 bio and endings.

Bio: Kung Lao's plan to reform the White Lotus Society comes to a halt when Shao Kahn's invasion takes the earth by storm. As a chosen warrior Kung Lao must use his greatest fighting skills to bring down Shao Kahn's reign of terror.

Yay, generic good guy!

Ending: When Shao Kahn invades Earth, Kung Lao must scrap his plans of reuniting the White Lotus Society. He instead must focus on the new tournament. He seeks Liu Kang and together they battle Kahn's forces fearlessly.

Using the knowledge he obtained as a Shaolin Monk, he fights in the name of his great ancestor- the original Kung Lao. He emerges victorious but suffers from injuries during battle with Kahn. Believed to have passed away, Kung Lao joins his ancestors in a new life.

Okay, cool. What can you tell from this? That he's a good guy who wants to beat up the bad guy.

Now onto MKDA.

Bio: Kung Lao was the first to find the body of his friend and fellow Shaolin monk Liu Kang. He later discovered that it was in fact Shang Tsung who had dealt the fatal blow. Enraged, Kung Lao abandoned his Shaolin beliefs and vowed revenge against the sorcerer. He kenew that his fighting skill would not be sufficient to best Shang Tsung. He would need training from the same Outworld master who had taught Liu Kang the one special attack he needed to win the Mortal Kombat tournament so many years ago.

Kung Lao traveled to Outworld and informed the martial arts master, Bo' Rai Cho, of Liu Kang's death at the hands of the sorcerer Shang Tsung. Devastated by the news, the old master agreed to teach Kung Lao the flying kick Liu Kang had used to defeat Shang Tsung a decade ago. The training was intense, but Bo' Rai Cho was determined to give Kung Lao a greater edge than he had given Liu Kang. Once Kung Lao had mastered the 'Whirlind Kick', both he and Bo' Rai Cho journeyed across Outworld to deal with the sorcerer Shang Tsung.

Okay he's pissed that his friend died and wants some revenge. Yay, revenge! Never seen that in MK before. Okay, so he feels like he's not strong enough. Is it that he's humble or not confident? Who knows!?

Ending: Rage fueled Kung Lao's thirst for revenge. The memory of holding his fellow monk's broken body on the lei tai of the Wu Shi Academy grounds consumed him as he rained blow after blow down upon Shang Tsung. Kung Lao had finally mastered the attack Bo' Rai Cho had taught him. The sorcerer could not withstand his whirlwind assault. Shang Tsung begged for mercy. Kung Lao granted him none.

Upon his return to Earthrealm, Kung Lao stood before the modest shrine to Liu Kang which had been erected by the Wu Shi initiates during his absence in Outworld. He lit a stick of incense and placed it among the others already burning there. He bowed his head and prayed for safe passage to the afterlife for his friend and brother. With Shang Tsung's death, Liu Kang's spirit could rest peacefully. Earthrealm was safe once more, but at terrible cost. The work of the White Lotus society had become more important than ever.

First of all, he's dead so this ending is irrelevant. But it should help us characterize Kung Lao. He beat up Shang Tsung and used revenge as motivation. Now he's mourning Liu some where.

So what do we get out of Kung Lao throughout the series of bios and endings? He fights bad guys and is angry when his friend dies.

Okay, now look what MKSM did with his characterization. A few cutscenes and he has a personality! Someone who is overconfident in his abilities. More depth than the whole MK series has given him.

What's my point? Bios and Endings are bad ways of telling a story. Not only are most of them non-canon, but they shed little light on who a character is

when it comes to arguing over a fictional story, we have to be nitpicky lol. This all started with me being bothered by Razor's comment on the fanbase. Now its turned into an argument about story telling, Final Fantasy and Kitana in Disneyland. I love this site

I honestly didn't wanna read through this whole thread cause I should be in bed for court tomorrow but I wanted to comment after reaing a few. I think maybe it's like the "John Connor Effect". If they prevent Judgement Day John wouldn't be born. Either way bad stuff has to happen to the characters. Otherwise nothin' is gonna happen to the characters good or bad..lol Who knows..maybe this was the route Raiden took in the beginning? COuld be wrong. Maybe he tried preventing a bad future that in turn brings about Armageddon anyway by trying to prevent it. If I'm makin' any sense..?

Nobody on Earth has spider-powers.

Nearly everybody who reads Spider-Man comics says it's because they relate to Peter Parker.

If you're just going to keep repeating your incorrect ideas that there's no such thing as relating to fictional characters, then you are of no use to this or any other conversation.

They can relate to Peter Parker through him being a student, having a wife, previously living with his aunt, ETC.. Things of that sort.

No one can relate to him being a superhero.

Therefore, you don't understand the essence of his character. If you can't relate to him as a whole, that's not the character.

I think we all realize the story is just kinda supplementery. They saw early that people dug it and elaborated, but it hardly ever seems to have any real consequences or changes for that matter... except for DA. Why couldnt the DA approach to the story stick?

But yeah, the story needs sorting out and we now have good chance to do so. I'm gonna hold out some hope for the MK team.

Khanswarrior, this persistent lack of imagination you have is your problem, not mine or anyone else's.
I'm going to put this as nicely as possible because I want this train of thought to come to an end since it's obviously going nowhere.
If you don't BELIEVE real people can relate to extraordinary fictional circumstances like sorcery and resurrection and whatnot, FINE. But you already told me so four times now. Nobody needs to hear it a fifth. You NEED to stop repeating yourself.

Well before anything, ask yourself this: if Kung Lao is the last descendant of the great fallen hero, why didn't HE enter the Mortal Kombat tournament? Why was HE not the one who fought Goro & Shang Tsung? Considering his ancestry, you'd think he would be the guy everyone expected to be the Chosen Hero, destined to save the world?

Well, the answer is given right in the MK2 comic by John Tobias: he didn't want the responsibility. This is further elaborated when they establish the MK Champion will not age and is required to defend his title until he is defeated/killed.
Kung Lao, not wanting to spend his life in constant battle, wanted nothing to do with being Champion. He left it to Liu Kang, who stepped up to the plate.

Kung Lao's preferring to live in peace is further established by his only coming out to fight when he has no other choice. Such as, for example, Shao Kahn invading Earth.
This characteristic is all but hammered home when we learn he let people think he died after MK3 so he could live his life in peace. Once again, only returning to fight for Shinnok's invasion. And again when Liu Kang was dead.

This paints a picture of a classic reluctant hero. A warrior who rather be left alone and live in peace, but if frequently forced to battle. And we get some nice conflict in the situation when we take into account that, as the last descendant of the Great Kung Lao, you would THINK he'd be the Chosen One.

Characterization....Shaolin warrior; last descendant of great fallen hero.
Conflict...he wants nothing to do with his apparent birthright, but he just keeps getting dragged into battle.

This drama would reach it's apex in MK:DA when Liu Kang is killed and....who do you THINK everyone expects to take Liu's place? If you want to really read into, you can nice little subtle things like: he apparently insists he's only going to fight Shang Tsung for revenge. He goes to get trained by Bo' Rai Cho alone...only joined by Kitana.

Almost as though...he's trying NOT to be the leader of the heroes like Liu Kang was.

His ending...though non-canon...suggests that had he defeated Shang, Kung Lao could've maybe realized that he has no choice but to take Liu's place as Earth's defender.

And just for shits and giggles....consider the actor who portrayed Kung Lao said when he played the character, he imagined him as a dark, brooding, Clint Eastwood figure. So, some possible insight into Kung's personality there.


Not rocket science, but I never said Kung Lao was the deepest and most complex of characters in Mortal Kombat.....although he certainly has more going for him than a lot of other sacred cows.


And BTW, since you brought it up, does the character established through the games I just described sound ANYTHING like the Kung Lao we got in Shaolin Monks?

Were you not curious why a lot of people cried foul on that?

Well, it did. MKDA was mostly a setup for the Deception plotline, and good one at that.

well XD that's actually a pretty good analysis. But take this into consideration. Without that comic book, what do we get out of Kung Lao? Nothing. Bios and Endings do nothing for a character. Without that comic book by John Tobias, you would never think of Kung Lao as a reluctant hero as you say he is.

Okay, so we got Kung Lao as a reluctant hero. Now what? What's there to discuss, interpret, analyze, debate, ect. Seems like going from point a to point b with no change in the character. Alot of these characters are based on archetypes. Scorpion is an anti-hero, Cage is comic relief, Sonya is the mouthy woman, Kang is the generic hero, Raiden is a mentor, Kahn is a bad guy, ect.

Archetypes with little depth and development. Sure, Sub-Zero and Kitana might be unique, and do evolve as the series progresses, but most of the MK characters just fall into archetypes.

Well, I would call his letting people think he was dead...as explained in his MK Gold bio....a pretty big signal he's doesn't really want to fight all the time.



And which characters do I constantly insist need to go away and make room for characters that have evolved or could go somewhere?

I'll give you a hint:

And my answer to that is tell me how 60 hours of talking made Zell, Selphie, Irvine, and Quistis, or Wakka, Lulu, Rikku, and Khimari not underdeveloped archetypes. Are they any deeper than 6 bios made the younger Sub-Zero brother? Or hell, any deeper than a few short FMVs and one Noob Saibot bio and ending made the older one?

My answer to that would be, no, they're far more shallow than both despite being depicted in a far "deeper" medium. It did nothing for them.

fair enough XD84, but you can't justify removing Raiden, Sonya, Liu Kang, Scorpion and 90% of the roster for the sake of the plot.

Razor, the characters you mentioned actually have depth. Only a handful of the roster does. And Lulu, Wakka and Khimari are not under developed archetypes, Their stories end with them changing significantly.

I don't think you played the same FF8 and 10 I did.

maybe not

Another argument I would make is when you spend enough time on TVTropes, you learn there's pretty much no such thing as a character who can't be summed up by a very simple archetype.

Growth just means changing what archetype you are or becoming multiple archetypes at once.

and how exactly does Kung Lao grow? How does Scorpion grow? Or how about Mileena, or everyone but Sub-Zero and Kitana?

I think a character can transcend their archetype if they're sufficiently fleshed out. It depend on the presentation of the character within the context of the story.

Mileena for instance, is basically a collection of fairly common archetypes you can find in dozens of other stories.
What sets her apart from other Mortal Kombat characters is her motivation and reasons for motivation are more defined and distinct.

She doesn't merely hate Kitana because Kitana's good and Mileena's bad and that's the way of things. And she doesn't merely want to kill Kitana.
She hates Kitana because she was supposed to take her place, but was instead forced to be her watchdog. And she can't hate Shao Kahn for it, even though she should, so she blames it all on Kitana. She wants to surpass her because she's trying to establish her sense of self-worth. In Deception, that's evolved into a belief that taking Kitana's place is her destiny.
Compare that with Johnny Cage, who's the "funny guy" because....he's an actor, and I guess actors are funny. And he wants to prove he's a legit fighter because....he doesn't like that people think he isn't.

I could elaborate on this and explain certain other characters, but I don't really feel like typing anymore.

I'll just leave it at, some characters have surpassed their basic archetypes. And a small few have gone even further and evolved over the course of the series.