Just so you know.. Sub-Zero's old timeline origins is tossed out the door... The Lin Kuei kidnap both Bi-Han and Kuai Liang from there parents "S"

So there is no sister.... and both parents are asian this time.

How i would have done it differently? It would not have never have happen at ALL.

I'm just glad Cyber Sub-Zero is dead.... that the zombie is only a reflection and nothing more.
...but if Cyber was to return. I would rather him be a seperated character all together... and Kuai Liang back his original human form.
How? i don't freaking know!!? Lets leave that to NRS to decide.

I would have just put Frost in some Samus/Iron Man -type armor. All the powers of Cyber Subz, non of the mess. Plus some variety.

...by not making him a Cyborg in the first place...

DUMB... DUMB... DUMB...

We still don't know if their sister doesn't exist yet though. Just because they showed these two getting kidnapped doesn't mean that they didn't kidnap his sister as well.

Plus my thoughts on this. If Cyber Sub-Zero is revealed to be the sister and is later revived and becomes Frost. The hate she has towards sub-zero would be justified this time. Last time she was just power hungry, which a lot of characters are. If it turned out cyber subz was frost though and she became human again, she would think her brother let her undergo the process instead of taking the bullet himself, even though he wouldn't have knew anything about her. Then she could plot against him letting everyone know that she just missed her brother, even though her true intentions would be to make him suffer.

That or we could just make sure Sareena is involved in helping Sub-Zero become human again.lol. Either way works for me as long as Kuai Liang ends up not cyber sub-zero in the end. Like I've said, I've never ever been against cyber sub-zero, but the way they did it was just wrong. They should have knew as the developers that this would piss a major amount of people off.

Cyrax and subzero are both the "feel sorry characters"

And yet I don't feel sorry for Cyrax, and I don't think grafting Smoke's old story onto a different character was a creative way to go about things. Hence my belief that Kuai Liang as a robot was a mistake.

Exactly it's just retreading old ground while ruining two characters. Smoke got absolutely nothing out of it, and also got his but kicked quite a few good times in the story. Maybe that was just a hint to fans that "Yea smoke should have became the cyborg, but it's too late now."

Really neither of them should become a cyborg in my opinion because some fan is going to be pissed either way, but if you keep both human and they decide hey maybe a third cyborg is not a good idea, then that would please all fans.

Sub-Zero is only going to suffer from this in the end, but what do they care really? They haven't written a good story in a while. Maybe it's time to get someone new to write for them, someone who will actually try.

That is the one thing wrong with this game for me. When I play it I can't help but think of what THIS game did to him, or wha they in particular did to him.

Sub-Zero should have been one of the last options of people to automate, they should have thought a little more along the lines of someone who needed it like Jax or a fully automated Kabal. However, Sub-Zero was going to piss people off and they knew it so why did they do it?

I disagree with that one.

SOMEONE has to be a tragic victim automated against his will, that's the ONLY thing that makes the Lin Kuei automation an interesting storyline. Without the identity-rape part, there's no reason to even HAVE the cyberninjas, Sektor and Cyrax by themselves are kinda boring. It was always robot 3 that brought the flavor.

And like I already said, Cyrax doesn't work stealing robot 3's role because Cyrax doesn't have anyone in the story who cares about him, therefore we in the audience don't have much to feel sorry for or root for. Nobody in the game is fighting for Cyrax, or believes Cyrax can be saved, or even knows him well enough to try...so what does it matter when he gets captured? He's just a henchman who failed to revolt. Oh, what a shame, the bad guy was double-crossed by other badguys.

THAT is why the story has always needed a third cyborg.

Also, there are exactly three aspects of becoming a machine to explore, three roads to travel down. No less. Sektor is the eager volunteer, Cyrax is the one who eventually learns to combine his tech with his humanity and find balance, and robot 3 is the one who hates being a robot and spends his life trying to escape the tragedy that's befallen him. Leave out any one of those three and suddenly there's an aspect to being a cyborg not being explored, a missed opportunity in the plotline.

I just don't think that role fits Sub-Zero, because Sub-Zero has a million things you can do with him that are better, and because MK9 didn't even do a good job depicting the horror of having your mind and body taken from you or fighting to get them back. He simply disappeared, he reappeared as a robot, he was captured, and Jax fixed his brain. It was all so quick and easy. He could've at least been forced to fight some allies and malfunctioned and shown signs he was trying to fight the programming first, y'know?
Anyway, It DID fit Smoke because Smoke didn't have anything else interesting about him (He still doesn't, not really. I'm not convinced this whole "enenra" demon sacrifice origin story will amount to much), and because they did a good job of telling you what his capture and mental struggle felt like in his bio, ending, and funnily enough, that one episode of the cartoon.
All of that said...I would have supported the idea of there being a Cyber-Sub-Zero if it had been a FOURTH cyborg, and had been Bi-Han's corpse frankensteined into a robot, which is to say, the character would be a roster replacement for Classic Sub from UMK3/Trilogy instead of a replacement for Cyber-Smoke. And the reason for that is because I think it would be worthwhile to see a more experimental/prototype stage of the cyber tech, something that shows "well before it was ready to graft onto live dudes like Sektor and Cyrax, we tried it on cadavers first" and because it would make a version of "Classic Sub" into a canon character in a way you couldn't have otherwise because of the real Bi-Han being Noob.

I'd like CSZ to survive by the end of the game. Otherwise I completely satisfied about his story.

Smoke became boring after MK3, since Sub-Zero practically forgot about him after that game. After that point he was just walking poor soul without supporting cast and quite boring. He is suffering robot - we get it, what's more to him? Nothing.

Unlike CSZ for whom his cybernitization could only one of the aspects of his character. Kuai Liang still could be interesting character without turning into walking mishap like Smoke.
Cyrax was much more tragic figure for me, because unlkike Smoke he was fleshed out more in the games - there was simply more to him than "cyber emo". MK9 also did a good job of fleshing him out. In some regards he reminded me about Bi Han in MKM.

If Sub-Zero hadn't been killed by Sindel, I would have been okay with him staying as a cyborg (I would've prefered it if he'd never changed, but that's another story). The fact that both he and Smoke are killed makes that twist seem pointless, and rather insulting to SZ fans.

When it was originally believed that Bi-Han was going to survive his battle with Scorpion, I thought it would be Kuai Liang who was automated, and Bi-Han's horror at seeing his brother becoming nothing more than a cybernetic slave would have driven him to turn on the Lin Kuei. When it was revealed that Bi-Han still died, I thought they were going to exclude Noob Saibot from the game and have the Lin Kuei rebuild him, allowing both Kuai Liang and Smoke to avoid said fate.

Ultimately, there are only two things I really would've changed; first, have Sub-Zero survive the battle with Sindel (it wouldn't have the made the scene any less significant, it would have just allowed one of the franchises's most popular characters to not look like a chump, and also give the forces of good one more survivor at the game's end). Second, change his outfit to one similar to Cyrax's alt in Deadly Alliance/Armageddon (human face and arms exposed, everything else still covered in cybernetics). They could have then given him is signature scar, a result of the automation surgery. Cyber Sub-Zero's battle damage looks like his torso is mostly empty and his skull has been replaced, making me wonder just how much of his human self was left in there.

Raiden cared about Cyrax back before the cyber initiative but Raiden didn't successfully prevent anything as he didn't with the vengeance of Scorpion either. While a fourth cyborg would have been possible, taking into account that this was a retcon, it has been said that Smoke formerly wore the same exo-skeleton that Sub-Zero now wears (notice: blue color).


To my knowledge, you spell the surname first in Chinese making Kuai the surname actually. Kuai Liang has been seen as the more important one of the two, from the good guys' view, so it makes sense he carries the surname.
As for my view on how Cyber Sub-Zero's story could have been changed: to some extent I understand NRS's motives. Sub-Zero takes a lot of limelight even when there are lots of other characters with great potential, perhaps John Vogel wanted to turn Kuai Liang into an abomination so his fans would turn to other characters who would get the limelight in the sequel. Why Scorpion didn't get the same treatment was probably because he has still got issues with Quan Chi to deal and Scorpion is Ed Boon's protege.
Kuai Liang should have gotten his Tundra name back when he turned into a cyborg because he no longer represented Bi-Han's view of Sub-Zero and that would've made CSZ more unique with his own select icon and all. Being a half-cryomancer alone doesn't make you Sub-Zero. And this is an issue with many MK fans - they think that we don't need another cryomancer because we already have Sub-Zero. How many characters use fire? Technique matters the most.
I would have written a biography for CSZ and not share it with Kuai Liang and Bi-Han's shared Sub-Zero biography. It would have told more specifically what happened to him during the cyber initiative. I didn't like the idea of CSZ beating two Shokans alone. Overall, CSZ was just a plot device for John Vogel and my prediction is that Kuai Liang won't play a very big role in the sequel. Gameplay-wise, I'm happy to have CSZ; he is one of my most used characters - but that is another story.

English speakers sometimes reverse Asian names so the family name comes last like what they're used to. Mortal Kombat does this. Examples: Liu Kang is Chinese, his last name is Kang. We know this 'cause his family was named Lee Kang, Lin Kang, and Chow Kang. Also, Scorpion's name would be said "Hasashi Hanzo" in Japan. Hanzo is a common given name (especially for ninjas, as tribute to the famous historical figure/fictional character Hattori Hanzo), not a surname.

Since all the other names are surname last in MK, we have to assume that Kuai Liang is surname last too.

So... both Sub Zeros are part white, part Chinese, right? with an unknown portion being of Cryomancer/Outworld(ian/ish(?)) descent. So: Chinese/Outworld father; white/American mother. To me, they both look 100% white, especially due to the blue eyes (although, this could just be a common trait of Cryomancers); and they both have fair skin.

I think they were originally Chinese-American, then they were made pure Chinese in the latest game.

The original timeline said their father was a Chinese Lin Kuei member, the 4th generation of their family to be a "Sub-Zero" (the name runs in the family), and their mother was an American woman he married while there on a spying mission or something like that. They had three kids, two sons and a daughter, and Subby the 4th took his sons and returned to the Lin Kuei, abandoning their mother and sister who were never seen again.

(And contrary to fan speculation, Vogel confirmed that Frost is not the sister, she's not related to them at all. After all, them having the same powers withOUT being family was the proof Kuai used to figure out that they had the same ancestors, Cryomancers.)

The new timeline only says that Bi-Han and Kuai were stolen from their family by the Lin Kuei. It wasn't really any more specific than that, so it would still technically be true to say they were stolen from their family by the Lin Kuei if their father was the one who stole them, but the animated vignette they released on the web to promote the game seemed to depict otherwise...but who can say for sure whether they'll even consider that vignette canon when they write for the games? They seem to not mind ignoring whatever they feel like anymore. After all, Tobias's comics were supposed to be the canon backstories of MK1 and 2, but Shang never made the island quake and Goro was never lost and thought dead.

Chinese name order: family name / surname (Ji / Smith) - middle / given name (Wen / ...) - personal name (ex: John / Ja).

Governed by General Principles of Civil Law Article 99.

Since NONE of the Sub-Zero brothers share the patrilinear name that they MUST HAVE (not just by law, by principle of chinese linguistical mechanics) as Chinese people, we know EXACTLY that the family name is the one missing (that of the father). Wether they are Han Bi or Liang Kuai is irrelevant, they are missing the family name. If any of the names are proven to be family names, then they are not Chinese by default and NRS have not done any research understandably (as it is not really important, but if they went the extra mile for names, then GET THOSE NAMING CONVENTIONS RIGHT).

Or unless, Bi Han (and not Bi-Han) and Kuai Liang are pseudonyms themselves for civic use.

Oh, and Chinese people change names throughout their lives, or may be bestowed new ones from authority or posthumously.

Much of your argument hinges on leaving the hyphen out of a name that has a hyphen.
Maybe names don't have hyphens in real Chinese...but I'm afraid that for the like millionth time, one of your arguments about how things are or were in the real world is defeated by the fact that we're talking about fictional characters made by guys who I've already demonstrated don't follow the rules of Asian culture with their names.
Now, NRS clearly hasn't given us any proof that Bi-Han's last name is Liang, but they also haven't said that it isn't. All I'm sayin' is, a hyphen makes one, a space makes two. So one Sub-Zero has only one name, his brother has two names, and MK characters have never yet had middle names and their family names always come last because they were made by Americans. So it would SEEM, based on current evidence, that Liang MIGHT be the family name and I choose to interpret that it IS until the creators say their family name is something else.

This has turned into a discussion about the Sub-Zero's brothers last name. Does it really matter?lol. I like the good ol days of YSZ and ESZ.lol

Anyway I say let Cyber Subz turn out to be Hydro. I mean Hydro is in MK:legacy and in the comics. He's a part of MK history, so why not add him to the story. I was reading WWE magazine earlier and it featured Glacier from WCW in which it read under it he very much resembles MK's Sub-Zero, which reminded me how much Sub-Zero and Scorpion are a part of pop culture. It would be a shame to replace all of that for an unwanted refrigerator that no one really wanted in the first place. I say have Cyber Subz turn out to somehow be Hydro though. Like I said he's already a part of MK history and he's just as much a rumored character as Skarlett, Tremor, Nimbus, etc... So, why not really?

Let Cyber Subz chapter have turned out to be a dream on Sub-Zero's part or something where he dreamed Hydro's fate was actually his when in actuality he survived, but scarred by escaping. Literally. lol.

^Eh... I don't like it. I say stick with the Cyber story for now, and maybe they can "fix" it down the road.

Tremor's not a rumor character btw.

As far as being rumored to be in the ACTUAL fighting games he is a rumored character.

He was in special forces yeah but he never did get a spot in an actual game. So as far as being in the fighting games he's a rumored characater.

Anyway, why don't you like the idea? Not that it matters really, just wondering?

I get it's farfetched but many, many things about MK9's story mode were farfetched anyway. Plus it'd keep Cyber Subz/Hydro, and please Sub-Zero fans who are pissed at the situation right now, like me.lol

Scar, you have a lot of ideas that involve changing who Cyber Sub was under the armor. You wanted it to be Frost, now you want it to be Hydro.

Now, I hate Kuai being a robot as much as anyone possibly can, but the problem with your ideas is the damned robot already spoke with Kuai's voice, recognized Smoke as his best friend, and he and Noob Saibot recognized each other as their brother. It's too late to say he was really somebody else the whole time.

I want him to simply be converted back to his original form via Quan Chi's sorcery, surely Cyber Sub-Zero's mechanical parts will need maintenance, Quan Chi could restore him to human form as a matter of practicality, that way it's logical and not as forced or confusing as it being Frost or anybody else.

Sub-Zero's not a favorite of mine, but I like him and I'm not going to lie, I really only care about human Sub-Zero, I feel CSZ was basically just a means to change things because this pathway lead him nowhere new and he died ten minutes later, for shame. Even if he had survived, Cyrax and Sektor have the Cyber angle covered, especially since they dropped Smoke from the equation.

Chinese has no use for hyphens, all characters are phoneme based.

Liang Bi Han COULD be the older Subs name, but that would pose the question of what Liang Kuais given name would be.

Disregarding name order, romanized or original, the case either way is that one of the Sub-Zero brothers is missing either a given or a family name.
I think it would be better that the family name were to be missing, since it could be possibly classified (Jack Kerouac would be better identifiable by Kerouac rather than Jack for example) and it is the more significant particle of the name.

Also the hyphen thing: one of my friends is called Finta-Kőszegi Márk. The "Finta-Kőszegi" part are actually TWO family names with erqual value, and not one. It really depends on linguistical peculiarities.

Same thing with my mother without a hyphen though, two family surnames (current + maiden + personal name).

But you are correct, it has more to do with the lax naming from NRS, and this is really a minor problem when Reiko is named after an ALL-FEMALE Japanese name... to a lesser extent Hotaru.

We are all nitpicking, but really, if they decided they go a half mile for giving the Subs a name, then do it right. KT in Legacy actually did, since Bi Han is written without hyphenation and is pronounced as Bai Han.

EDIT: just for fun.

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst;=0&wdqb;=bi

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst;=0&wdqb;=han

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst;=0&wdqb;=kuai

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst;=0&wdqb;=liang

Yeah, we have the ol' "wife kept her maiden name AND took her husband's name at the same time" trick in English too. It's generally only used by women who are in showbiz or high levels of business and thus have some reason to think it's important that people still recognize their name post-marriage, but not famous enough or egotistical enough to say no to taking the husband's name altogether.

And sometimes if there's a divorce or some sort of complication afterward, the poor children of this union also get stuck with an unnecessarily complicated double-surname.

This isn't particularly relevant to the Sub-Zeros though. That's a matter where they HAD just one family name and added another one to it at a later date because they became a member of a second family, and you can say either or the other for convenience. I'm pretty sure neither Sub-Zero brother, given their backstory, is keeping their mother's maiden name. It's different with given names, I'm not sure if it's appropriate or not, but it sure doesn't sound right to my ear to call him just Bi instead of Bi-Han, but it sounds fine to say just Kuai instead of the full Kuai Liang, and you can for instance call Liu Kang, who is Chinese just like them, just "Liu" as other characters often have because there's a case where we KNOW they intend that "Liu" is his given name and "Kang" is his family name.
If the Chinese don't have hyphens, but this fictional character does, then what do the creators intend the hyphen to mean? They didn't get the culture right...but they also don't HAVE to, because it's a work of fiction and within their rights to make shit up if they like. We have to kinda go by the rules of the hyphen and the patterns established by every other MK character's name, instead of the rules of real world Chinese. The question remaining is WHY one of them has two names while the other has only one name, and the answer would seem to me a matter of convenience: their real names are often only said together and saying "Bi-Han and Kuai Liang" is like saying "John and Jane Smith", you don't NEED to say "John Smith and Jane Smith", that's just a bit redundant.
On the aesthetic side, "Liang" would certainly make a fine family name for the whole line of Sub-Zeros, since according to the links you posted, one of the definitions is "cold", and the powers do run in the family.
Sidenote, Reiko and Hotaru aren't even from Earth. Being bothered that they have names girls would have in Japan is being nitpicky even for us.

That is a male name though. Kinda like Marc Finta of Kőszegh (-i denotes "from this place")

Maiden names to my knowledge do not exist in China for the most part, women do not change their name (there was a very strong taboo against marrying someone with the same family surname)

Other stuff: pretty much. I am a bit picky about such stuff, due to cultural issues stemming as a minority. Slavic names for example follow European naming theme, Hungarian uses Asian. Not to mention that the current slovak regime prohibits use of our names according to our own language in public official places. And females have to put the suffix OVA to their surname, which due to slovak inflectional phonetics often change the meaning of the name...

Csóka Erzsébet (my mom, Elizabeth) becomes Alzbeta Csókova.

Notice how the original stem Csóka (Jackdaw) changes to Csók (smooch).
I bet you would be nitpicky too if the women in your family would have to use their names that way....

Oh yeah, and some Hungarian names are really hard to acknowledge by the authorities when you name your kid, as you HAVE to pick slovak equivalents. If there are any.


But enough about going off, the bottom line is that NRS have not gone deep enough into naming conventions and used pseudo chinese names. But being a fantasy counterpart does not excuse everything.