Does Vogel have a thing for having the heroes lose?
Y'know as I was seeing the Avengers last night. I noticed that every character had a Crowning Moment of Awesome in their last battle and I was thinking "Why didn't the MK3 story mode have this for the good guys in the last battle"

Instead we got the Sindel scene where every good guy looks flat out incompetent and is expendable.

Of course Vogel's done this before. The good guys lost MK:DA, we know they lost MK:A and now this..

So you have to wonder does Vogel have an aversion to good guys winning? Does he think it's cliche and wants to change things up.

It's okay to have the good guys lose at certain points to make your villains look threatening but at the end we want to see the heroes shine and that doesn't seem to be something Vogel (or whoever writes MK now) really understands.

But what do you guys thinks?
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RazorsEdge701
05/05/2012 10:21 PM (UTC)
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I think what he keeps trying to do is just set up the odds to look hopeless so that when the heroes finally do win, it looks like an even bigger triumph.

Like how Shujinko's entire life turned out to be a lie and he nearly helped end the world...but that just led to Shujinko using the power Onaga gave him to assemble and copy from every MK character at once and destroy the Kamidogus with a rainbow-colored fist.

The problem is he's really bad at it and his attempts to create a "bittersweet" feeling come up just plain bitter, without any of the sweet, because he keeps using mass amounts of death and resurrection and that cheapens the characters and especially in MK9, robs you of any sense of victory. I don't feel like Raiden saved the universe, I just feel like he got everyone who trusted him killed.
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Immortal_Kanji
05/05/2012 10:21 PM (UTC)
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I hate the idea of the heroes losing. I love heroes winning and saving the world.
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Shadaloo
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About Me
MK Khronology: 58.49% complete...
05/05/2012 10:40 PM (UTC)
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Are we really sure it's still Vogel who pens everything?
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Zmoke
05/05/2012 11:30 PM (UTC)
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Why won't you ask Vogel himself? He's an active Twitter writer. smile
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redman
05/05/2012 11:40 PM (UTC)
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I have to agree with you on this.

It seems like all they did is let the villains make the moves, never letting Raiden's amulet even having a chance of uncracking once Liu Kang killed Shao Kahn. It pissed me off to be honest. It was the same boring plot throughout the whole storyline and at the end it does make you wanna play the next game, and i'm pretty sure that's what they were going for. But to kill off all of the fan's favorites characters was a dick move. I think the next storyline will be much better though.
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KungLaodoesntsuck
05/06/2012 12:44 AM (UTC)
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Shadaloo Wrote:
Are we really sure it's still Vogel who pens everything?


This. I don't think it's fair to blame everything on Vogel. There were at least 3 other writers.

As far as the heroes losing, I actually like the idea of the good guys losing a battle. But killing 80% of the heroes is just too much. Maybe 2 or 3 dead good guys but not any more than that.

I did like that MK9 had a somber ending as opposed to a happy ending.
True, I would love to know their thought process during the storymode writing, like what the heck made them thinking killing off 80% of the good guys was such a good idea?
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immortalkombat
05/06/2012 01:29 AM (UTC)
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ProudNintendofan Wrote:
True, I would love to know their thought process during the storymode writing, like what the heck made them thinking killing off 80% of the good guys was such a good idea?


I really think the reason the good guys were killed is so that when MK10 comes out with earth vs netherrealm, those dead good guys will be in the game as bad guys controlled by netherrealm, as there is only a handful of mk fighters from netherrealm, so we will have the MK4-MKA good guys vs netherrealm + dead heroes, giving us a pretty robust roster, they should be able to keep the current roster + add maybe 10 new characters from the MK4 - MKA timeline, kinda like tekken keep the same roster and just add a handful of newbies every game
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Immortal_Kanji
05/06/2012 04:09 AM (UTC)
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So with the heroes gone for a while until they're revived at the end. Well several that will be needed, we'd have...
1. Kai
2. Kenshi
3. Li Mei
4. Bo'Rai Cho
5. Sareena
6. Dairou
7. New
8. New
9. New
10. New
Yeah, but having 10 or so characters playable as zombies doesn't really sound that cool. Hell, Scorpion and Noob Saibot already fill that role, why do we need anymore.

And even then, they want Shinnok to have a legion of armies, isn't that what the other bad guys are for? Like... Reptile, Mileena, Reiko, ...Baraka? Just saying.
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Icebaby
05/06/2012 04:14 AM (UTC)
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I doubt the game will have half the roster be nothing but zombies.
Well, they're going to have to pull some resurrections out of their butts then.

In fact, that seems to be their mindset. "If we kill them off, we'll just come up with a way to bring them back in the next game. No biggie."
Exactly?! Why did all the good guys have to die because of Raydumm?

ProudNintendoFan your review is dead on!

ProudNintendoFan Review Part 1

ProudNintendoFan Review Part 2

ProudNintendoFan Review Part 3
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Jaded-Raven
05/06/2012 09:10 AM (UTC)
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I'm a fan of stories where the heroes aren't always the triumphant ones. It's cool to see a game where it isn't always the good guys who come out on top and I think Vogel is doing a good job with the story so far, though it could definately use some tweaks and small changes.
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immortalkombat
05/06/2012 10:39 AM (UTC)
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They don't neccesarily have to be zombies they could just be under control
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lastfighter89
05/06/2012 04:11 PM (UTC)
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I strongly disagree.
People forget that this is Mortal Kombat, not Mavel's Avengers.
"Mortal" from latin = Deadly.
Although Ed Boon and John Tobias were great fans of the 80's and they loved the movies, the music and the cartoons of that age, Mk is not a super-heroic franchise, even thoguh in the latest days they tried to give a super hero gimmicky feel to the storyline and character developement, but they failed.

The heroes died only twice, in MK Deadly Alliance and MK 2011. So, I assume it's not an obsession of John Vogel or something like that.
And in MK(2011) alot of bad guys died too.
Sindel, she died in a cool way. Shang Tsung died too, in a shameful way, but that's the way he deserved to be killed, considering how viper-ish, devilish and backstabber he really is. Shao Kahn is supposed to be dead. Noob died after a great fight against Nightwolf.

Unfortunately according to Ed Boon "in Mortal Kombat nobody really dies".
It's pretty sad, IMO. One of the aspects that made MK glorious are its bad guys. They might be defeated, but the heroes really took a higher stake than anticipated in order to do so.

Again, a lot of people are overreacting to the entire ending of Story Mode.

Stryker died. yeah, he is cool in MK Armageddon and 2011, but really some of you gave a shit about him few months ago? So they killed him.

Kabal: a guy whose alignement was never clear. He had no interest in killing both Onaga and Havik, he allied himself with the heroes in MK3, and then he becomes a bad guy. We have no clues on how his story will go on and which direction may take. A great and complex character, but he needs a rest.

Sindel: nothing interesting if not the whole "I made the invasion possible, I am the former Queen and now bad wife of Shao Kahn". Lame.

Kitana: the female protagounist of the series, but she lack the charisma of Sonya Blade and the complexity of Mileena, IMO. She's just the Princess of a lot of fairy tales, there's no room in Mortal Kombat for her.

Smoke: ok, he never was a real character in MK2. They gave him a slight spotlight in Mk3 with his cyber transition. In MK deception his story was crap ad Noob Saibot ass-licker. His hairstyle is lame.

Jade: best friend of Kitana, she follows Kitana everywhere she goes. She have no interest in fighting for Earthrealm. Lame.

Kung Lao: a great fan favourite with inferiority complex towards his ancestor and Liu Kang. A razor-sharped hat and few cool fatalities. Not Impressed.

Sub-Zero: they gave a ninja (a chinese ninja, btw, next time I ask for an african viking), an unamsked ninja in his youth, an elderly unmasked ninja, a ninja with an armor and then a cyber ninja. All of these option out of a single character. He really needs a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG pause. But, unluckly, he is a fan favourite and a Icon to MK.

Jax: Never impressed by him. After all he needs two metallic condoms on his arms to be a decent character. I storyline was never great. He is overshadowed by Sonya. he can go.

These are just my 2 cents
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Insider2000
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About Me

Keep dunking your Kenshi breadsticks into your Skarlet sauce, people! The main course isn't coming for a while, and you never know when it's going to be disappointing.

05/06/2012 05:32 PM (UTC)
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lastfighter89 Wrote:
I strongly disagree.
People forget that this is Mortal Kombat, not Mavel's Avengers.
"Mortal" from latin = Deadly.
Although Ed Boon and John Tobias were great fans of the 80's and they loved the movies, the music and the cartoons of that age, Mk is not a super-heroic franchise, even thoguh in the latest days they tried to give a super hero gimmicky feel to the storyline and character developement, but they failed.


Unless you were referring to Defenders of the Realm (HA!), Mortal Kombat never had that much focus on the 'superheroic' aspects of their characters. Yet, the characters were on OUR side, thus making them ultimately good, But they failed sometimes. Sonya gets captured, Johnny dies, they all (except Sonya) fall for Tanya's betayal.

Yes, this IS Mortal Kombat where anyone could die, but if you want to run an actual plot that people care about, killing off characters that people are interested in but don't even get a chance to develop will make viewers angry.

This is why shows like Heroes went down the tubes. All it relied on were shock deaths and the "Who is going to die next?" card. Basically telling us that we shouldn't hold value to any character what-so-ever, and wait for them to die.

If that's the case, they need to stop making movies, cause I can get that enjoyment from horror movies.

The heroes died only twice, in MK Deadly Alliance and MK 2011. So, I assume it's not an obsession of John Vogel or something like that.


That's kind of the point. Vogel has been given credit for writing four game stories:
Mortal Kombat Deadly Alliance (where Liu Kang dies)
Mortal Kombat Deception (where Sonya, Jax, Johnny, Kitana, and Kung Lao died)
Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe
Mortal Kombat 2011 (I don't think I need to list them)

Three out of four of the games had him killing off heroes, two out of four of them had the heroes losing (2011, somewhat). Now again, there's nothing wrong with killing off characters. In my eyes, it was done well for Deception. Not to mention, those who died (save for maybe Kitana) didn't really have a major plot going aside from getting over Liu Kang. Hell, Liu Kang's death made sense. Liu Kang no longer had connections with Kitana, and saved the world four times. His story didn't have much else to go.

I don't think Vogel has a thing for having the heroes lose, but he clearly has no issue killing one of them. Again, which is FINE, but make sure you actually DO something with them.


And in MK(2011) alot of bad guys died too.
Sindel, she died in a cool way. Shang Tsung died too, in a shameful way, but that's the way he deserved to be killed, considering how viper-ish, devilish and backstabber he really is. Shao Kahn is supposed to be dead. Noob died after a great fight against Nightwolf.


Sindel's death was bad ass, and I have very few complaints with her death. Sure, it would have been nice for her to take over Edenia, but there wasn't that much need to evolve her story. Nor do I have complaints over Noob being dead, though I doubt that killed him. And Shao Kahn dying was to be expected.

Shang Tsung, however, was a far greater villain than people give him credit for. He was the driven force and major villain of the first Mortal Kombat, and even in MK2 and MK3, he was a major threat. Hell, when he and Quan Chi betrayed each other in Deadly Alliance, SHANG won! Shang is stronger than Quan, and just as evil.

Sure, he deserved to die at the hands of Shao Kahn, cause he was ultimately going to betray him, but still, they took a major villain of the series, and killed him off like it was nothing.

Unfortunately according to Ed Boon "in Mortal Kombat nobody really dies".
It's pretty sad, IMO. One of the aspects that made MK glorious are its bad guys. They might be defeated, but the heroes really took a higher stake than anticipated in order to do so.


I agree. Why kill off characters if you're going to bring them back anyway? The deaths hold no bearing or meaning.

The villains of this series ARE awesome, but hardly any of them died. Majority will be back the next game.



Stryker died. yeah, he is cool in MK Armageddon and 2011, but really some of you gave a shit about him few months ago? So they killed him.


..........A part of me wants to fight my bias, but I can't.

I've always seen Stryker this way. Since I was ten years old, playing UMK3 when it first came out. I've always been a Stryker fan, and I admit I am a part of a small population. But I've always seen Stryker as being the fearless normal guy more than willing to fight against ridiculous odds, purely because he feels needed there.

The only difference between now and MK3 is that Stryker has a better design, a new connection with Kabal, and a voice. And the biggest change is the voice, something that a lot of characters didn't have either.

So now that Stryker has a more vocal method of communicating with the player and getting more spotlight to speak, he's gotten more fans because more people have paid attention to him. He's actually gotten a chance. People have suddenly turned around and said, "Wait a minute! Stryker is actually pretty bad ass!"

But now, I have to bite the bullet. I have to give up. I have to stop wishing that Stryker could take part in other Mortal Kombat adventures and be a reoccurring character, or have friendships with other characters in the cast, or communicate with other characters in the cast. Or have anything in general.

Everyone was just too late to realize that Stryker was a great character because everyone didn't spend the past 15 years being his fan, until the last minute, where they showed how awesome he really was to those who didn't see it before....and then kill him.

I'm sorry. No. I WILL be angry about Stryker's death.

Kabal: a guy whose alignement was never clear. He had no interest in killing both Onaga and Havik, he allied himself with the heroes in MK3, and then he becomes a bad guy. We have no clues on how his story will go on and which direction may take. A great and complex character, but he needs a rest.


A rest? What did he do? What has he accomplished? You just said we don't know his plans! For the first time, we've learned a new story about Kabal, and we've learned why he takes the side he takes..... and he needs a rest!?! I don't see how that's a valid reason at all.

Sindel: nothing interesting if not the whole "I made the invasion possible, I am the former Queen and now bad wife of Shao Kahn". Lame.


Stop throwing your opinion of the character into the reason as to why the character should stay dead. You may not like her, but a large fanbase does. Sindel had far more interesting influence in Mortal Kombat Deception.

However, I don't think you like her to begin with, so why bother explain.

Kitana: the female protagounist of the series, but she lack the charisma of Sonya Blade and the complexity of Mileena, IMO. She's just the Princess of a lot of fairy tales, there's no room in Mortal Kombat for her.


1. Mortal Kombat 2011 did a terrible job with Kitana. Her portrayal was terrible, and personality poorly done. In the past, she wasn't just 'some princess', she was an assassin. And she didn't know about her true father's identity, she betrayed Shao Kahn through her own beliefs (and not that of Liu Kang). She was her own independent character, as she fought to save her mother and take over an entire country.

2. Mileena has never been complex in the game storyline. Never. In the comics? Absolutely. She had a jealous edge against Kitana, and yearned for her father's love. However, the comics were never canon. Instead, Mileena is a vicious monster who feeds and betrays everyone she doesn't hold dear (namely Shao Kahn). I love Mileena. I hope Mileena gets into the next game and develops into something more... But as of now (ESPECIALLY NOW), she is far from...'complex'.


Smoke: ok, he never was a real character in MK2. They gave him a slight spotlight in Mk3 with his cyber transition. In MK deception his story was crap ad Noob Saibot ass-licker. His hairstyle is lame.


Again. Personal opinion. Thinking someone is lame doesn't validate that people shouldn't care about him.

Jade: best friend of Kitana, she follows Kitana everywhere she goes. She have no interest in fighting for Earthrealm. Lame.

Kung Lao: a great fan favourite with inferiority complex towards his ancestor and Liu Kang. A razor-sharped hat and few cool fatalities. Not Impressed.


His inferiority complex only took place in MK: Shaolin Monks, which was a conflicted and mostly hated story to begin with. Kung Lao really considers Liu Kang to pretty much be his brother. The two are very good friends, and upon Liu Kang's death in DA, Kung Lao was emotionally crushed by the loss of his best friend. No inferiority complex. Just a friend who always stood beside the aid of another.

Sub-Zero: they gave a ninja (a chinese ninja, btw, next time I ask for an african viking), an unamsked ninja in his youth, an elderly unmasked ninja, a ninja with an armor and then a cyber ninja. All of these option out of a single character. He really needs a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG pause. But, unluckly, he is a fan favourite and a Icon to MK.


He became unmasked when he left his clan, and became old once he took the Dragon Medallion (which forced him to age rapidly). Also, I fail to see how he dresses to be him 'going through too many changes'. And the cyborg thing.....I've never cared about it, and Sub-Zero has always been my second favorite character in the series.

Sure, he deserves a break cause he's had too much focus, but so has Scorpion. And do you honestly think Ed Boon is going to let his darling baby, Scorpion, out of the spotlight for a major game?

Jax: Never impressed by him. After all he needs two metallic condoms on his arms to be a decent character. I storyline was never great. He is overshadowed by Sonya. he can go.


Again personal opinion.
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RazorsEdge701
05/06/2012 05:35 PM (UTC)
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lastfighter89 Wrote:
Mk is not a super-heroic franchise


Groups of people with fake names and colorful costumes, some with masks, and all of them have superhuman powers, fight a war of good vs. evil.

...Yeah, that doesn't sound like superheroes at all...
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
lastfighter89 Wrote:
Mk is not a super-heroic franchise


Groups of people with fake names and colorful costumes, some with masks, and all of them have superhuman powers, fight a war of good vs. evil.

...Yeah, that doesn't sound like superheroes at all...


lol very true
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Insider2000
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About Me

Keep dunking your Kenshi breadsticks into your Skarlet sauce, people! The main course isn't coming for a while, and you never know when it's going to be disappointing.

05/06/2012 07:21 PM (UTC)
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RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
lastfighter89 Wrote:
Mk is not a super-heroic franchise


Groups of people with fake names and colorful costumes, some with masks, and all of them have superhuman powers, fight a war of good vs. evil.

...Yeah, that doesn't sound like superheroes at all...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggXmKPMaHMo
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Zmoke
05/06/2012 07:55 PM (UTC)
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The fake names aren't mainly because the characters want to conceal their names (story-wise it probably is) but because fighting games mainly do that and fighters have those in the real world too. Hotaru doesn't have a double life, neither does Kenshi from what I know of. The colorfulness is typical to all general fighting games (flashiness aside).
Nevertheless, Mortal Kombat strongly reminds of a superhero comic with all those colorful, masked ninjas and all the elements the fighters possess, not to mention the simple good vs. evil segregation. It's no coincidence that many MK fans like superhero comics too.
The closest we get to a masked desperado who hungers for justice is Scorpion. He is pretty brutal and wrathful though, and doesn't have a double life from what we know of (real name: Hanzo Hasashi).
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Venkman28
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I know what I have given you. I do not know what you have received.
05/06/2012 08:37 PM (UTC)
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Mortal Kombat never had a happy ending if you read the storyline from 1 to Armaggedon. There was always someone to rule the realms and heroes dying and the end of the realm.

With the deaths in MK 2011, it made sense honestly because most of the characters from MK4 on never really got a good story with the exception of a few. Let those who died take a break and come back in the next game.
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Scar_Subby
05/07/2012 12:08 AM (UTC)
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Venkman28 Wrote:
Mortal Kombat never had a happy ending if you read the storyline from 1 to Armaggedon. There was always someone to rule the realms and heroes dying and the end of the realm.

With the deaths in MK 2011, it made sense honestly because most of the characters from MK4 on never really got a good story with the exception of a few. Let those who died take a break and come back in the next game.


I've seen this over and over and over again. Give the MK4-MKA characters a chance to shine. I love those characters, don't get me wrong. They aren't going to carry a game though. Sorry guys.

I love Li Mei, Havik, Bo Rai Cho, Fujin, their all good, but when that poll was made of favorite characters that boon posted on his twitter none of those characters beat the original trilogy characters as far as popularity. And they probably never will.

The only way to place those characters in a game is with a good amount of the original trilogy characters. That's the only way though.

While many want to believe that it's time for MK4-MKA characters to shine, I just have to disagree. A game with nearly all of those characters as the cast would fail. Epicly fail.

That's not me being close-minded either. That's me being realistic. All of this talk of let's keep those 10 characters dead and then replace them with the ones from MK4-MKA is honestly nonsense to me. From a business standpoint it absolutely would not work. Those characters are not well-known enough.

Honestly they need to pick and choose who should even return from those games. Because not all of those characters deserve a second chance, even though we all like to act like they do. I still can't believe that Kobra, Dairou, Darrius, Taven, or Daegon have fans. They do not deserve to return. At all. What would happen if those guys are in the next game, and then say Sub-Zero is left out? Does that REALLY sound okay to anybody?

NRS shot their load killing everybody. I'm glad they had their fun killing everybody off, all I can say is they better find a way to bring them back or their moneymakers are gone.

Liu Kang dying in Deadly Alliance was a good thing to me. It was one hero, THE hero dying. It signified a new beginning and for the first time the heroes did not have their go to guy to rely on. That was a GOOD death. All of the death in MK9 was BAD death.
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ShadowPreacher
05/07/2012 12:58 AM (UTC)
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ProudNintendofan Wrote:
And even then, they want Shinnok to have a legion of armies, isn't that what the other bad guys are for? Like... Reptile, Mileena, Reiko, ...Baraka? Just saying.


Not all bad guys are on the same side. Those are all Outworlders.

Shinnok wants to attack Earthrealm AND Outworld.

He even came right out and said it.
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