I think it's not a matter of diversity but rather a matter of taste. I mean, I'm a heterosexual male that loves the ladies as much as a man possibly can... but at the same time, I'm also someone that doesn't like being pandered too in an overt way. Believe it or not, I have an imagination of my own, I can use it, and sometimes I prefer ladies leaving some things to that imagination.

And there's no reason Sonya, in particular, can't be both a badass military warrior AND a hot, sexy woman without turning her into a walking flesh show.

Case in point:

A little bit sexy, yeah... but still leaves plenty to the imagination, and she still looks like she'd bare-knuckle box you in the streets if you called her "princess" or "sweet thing" and your name wasn't "Johnny Cage".

P.S. - took your critiques on her movie dress and made those changes. The anatomy was technically correct, but it didn't look right to me either. As my instructors taught me about art and character design, "do what LOOKS correct, not what IS correct". So, hope those improvements work for you.

The problem with Sonya's look in MKDA was her breasts. They threw off all the proportions of her body. They don't look like real breasts (shape and position), for one, and more importantly they're so big that they're almost up to her chin. She looks like one of those women who would go onto Jerry Springer with massive boobs, trying to break records and stuff.

Because of the size they chose to make her breasts, they overcompensated with her stance (the gorilla, hunched over, football player shoulders look) thinking it would make her look like less of a freak of nature. It didn't work, unfortunately.

I'm the biggest Sonya fan you'll ever find. That's the reason why it bugs me so much to see what was one a feminist icon in gaming being reduced game by game into a skank with clothes and boobs that even a porn star would find ridiculous.

I - REALLY - don't understand this obsession some straight males have with wanting to see a woman in a brutal fighting game be so overly sexual. To me, sex does not = violence. There aren't - any - MK females that haven't had costumes where their breasts, butt, or vagina aren't the focus. I mean seriously, two strips of tape and a cork would cover up Mileena more than her latest costumes.

When Sonya is in her "military mode" in the story, she should be dressed like in military garb. Not leather dominatrix lingerie. It makes her look stupid. It would be like if Johnny Cage entered the tournament dressed like this:



You would expect people in the game's universe to be looking at him like "WTF is wrong with that guy? Why is he dressed like that in a fighting tournament?".

But when it's a woman, looking like this... :



...everybody's cool with it? Are you effing kidding me? Nobody in the MK universe looks at her and goes "WTF is she wearing? Her vagina's going to pop out!"?

These female bodies and outfits the MK team are designing defy logic. Nobody would wear the clothes, and the proportions of their bodies are grossly exaggerated so much they don't even look human.

Sonya used to be normal. She used to be this:

She looked human (because she was). She was dressed for a fight.

Now?



That's the closest we have to Sonya looking halfway decent nowadays. But then, her breasts are still huge in-game, and when she gets battle damage the only things covered are her nipples. *facepalm and sigh*

I don't want her to wear a Snuggie. I just want equality. These women aren't fighting in Jell-O. They're fighting to the death. K, end rant. *EDIT* And one more thing: Please stop with the damn thong. It's freakin' stupid.

Much better. ;P

*Flawless Victory!*

I find it amazing that you keep living up to our expectations and demands. Thanks so much, Garlador!

Excellent attention to the MKSM details! The hair, the belly-button, the military-color patterns on her pants, that watch/wrist-thingy in her wrist (lovely addition!), the "belt-like" thing on her pants, the jacket and its wrinkles, and the straps are all so accurate its almost impossible to believe this is not official.

Just one small constructive criticism:

The way the pants "come out" from her left boot doesn't seem to match and looks a bit off. It's like the boot was copy/pasted in the wrong part of the leg or position, so, it's kind of fake. The other one looks just fine (the pants are placed in the middle and the parts of them that are coming out from the sides is fine), but, the right one looks like it could be polished to look more believable. It's the only thing that I see that is off. Those edges could be polished. Just a positive suggestion.



Yes you did! And let me tell you that you absolutely succeeded! Excellent job!

Both her leg and feet look much better, natural, and anatomically-correct. They look right and not "off" in the slightest. Meanwhile, her body looks a billion times better thanks to her smaller waist. You'd make a great plastic surgeon.

I love it and I can safely say this: It's perfect!

Thanks bud.



I do agree with your position on this (and I embrace your views on not wanting to be "pandered in an overt way" and woman looking badass and sexy without being half naked, that's what Sonya's been all about after all...), however, I've got to insist that diversity most certainly helps. It's important.

Overall, it's probably not just a matter of diversity, or of taste, or of whatever else we can come up with...maybe its a combination of things?

I seriously think that if they had more diversity they would probably accomplish more by learning new things and being (sort of) "forced" into them. The way I see it, the current team seems to be heading and thinking into the same direction. A specific route. Meanwhile, MKDA, MKD, MKvsDC and even MK4 offered (for some reason) a lot more than MK9 did in terms of creative character designs.

Maybe "diversity" is not the only solution, but, I strongly believe that it could be one of the essential factors to move things forward.

The way things are today, it looks like the main people in charge (bosses) who decide what ends up being made and what not, all think in the same narrow minded way: bigger boobs, less clothes, and high heels for everyone with big boobs.

So annoying.

I wonder if more people within the NRS team opposed to shirtless Sonya and Kitana's ridiculous attires, but, lost their opinion/votes due to the main bosses having the final say.

Hmmm....what do you think?

What does Ninja_Mime think?



Well, I didn't want to come off as too harsh by saying something like that, but, yeah, I can't say I disagree all that much with your statement.

I mean, seriously, what in the world where they thinking with some of their designs?

The females, in particular, got it the worst. They all suffer from the "unnecessary over the top stupid sexualization" in at least one of their costumes and some even in both (or three?).

Some costumes like Sonya's MK9 primary could have been perfect if only some simple (but major) changes would have been made (a fucking shirt).

And others are just unforgivable in almost everything.

And if we talk about the males, well, you just can't help but wonder why in the world does Shang Tsung's young version look so damn generic and uncreative, why Johnny's fantastic "jacket"/"coat" designs got scrapped in favor of the boring ones he got (in comparison to those amazing designs), etc.

A real shame, really.

I feel like they wanted to play it safe, more than anything...but it was just too safe. Which lead to uncreative or mediocre.

Mileena's alt is a real nice nod to her fantastic MKD costume, but, it is absolutely a "downgrade" more than anything else. It should feel the other way around, imo. It's like they took the main MKD costumes and took out elements from it to make it "different". These kind of decisions are what intrigue me and make me scratch my head.

I don't get it.

Will get back to you later, MikeyRu.

Looking forward to your reply Queve.

CRAP ON A STICK!!

AGAIN?!

AGAIN?!?!?!?!?!??!

We're spoiled you know. Very very spoiled.

*wipes away drool*

This outfit was what got me back into MK I was too busy (for once) to pick up video games when MKDA came out... and then I stumbled upon Sonya's Shaolin Monks render. And boy.. I was impressed. Loved where they'd taken her! (except the obvious funkiness in her face in her primary render)...

Went out and found copies of MKDA, SM and Deception that very week haha

Oh, I'm OBLIGATED to? Well, I refuse. Sorry. You can't make me. I know you love Sonya and all, but that's just going too far. I absolutely refuse to do anything of the sort.



... Well, my resistance lasted a short while. I know she's not totally movie-accurate (I couldn't resist throwing in a few bells & whistles myself), but do you think it'll suffice?

Methinks NRS should have a new staffmember

I think the team has talented concept artists, but the wrong people worked on the wrong character..

That and two of the best designers are gone...

All your modified renders are awesome, Garly. Is it too much to hope that Jade will get the same treatment when/if you do a thread like this about her? Because I would love to see you do her MKD main and alternate outfit, and also her MKSM one. ^^

I have tried fiddling with making those myself, but I never liked the results... -.-

I'd love to see him do non-stripper clothed versions of all the females, actually. It would be really interesting. Dress them like fighters, not pole dancers. You should redo the whole female roster, and then put them in a thread that we can send to NRS to show them how cool women can look like in a fighting game without being exploited and overly sexualized. :)

*Standing Ovation!*

Garlador, you are like the Coco Chanel that NRS doesn't have and desperately needs in their team. Period.

I was happily surprised with the liberties you took with her costume! I like all of those new additions and I approve of this glorious render edit. She looks far more interesting than she does in the movie. And just as sexy. It's really awesome and like Icebaby said, it goes off to prove that the females don't need to be showing off any skin to look sexy and badass.

Excellent job!

I'm a little confused as to what that thing on her right breast is supposed to be, though. Is that like an armor? The thing that looks like a turtle's shell in her right. What is it? Some kind of pocket?

I'm rather curious to see how she would look without it, featuring on that side the same cool design you gave her on the left side (the black with all those metallic buttons/circles on it). But that's just my personal taste.

Oh! Another thing that's my own personal taste is that I miss the sexy little bang that falls on top of her right eye. You edited it out of this render and her MKDA primary render (both look fantastic), but, personally, I think the bangs look great in her face. It's distinctive. Your other renders feature the bangs from the original render and it's just sexier. What do you think? Your edit is still impressive and you do a great job editing the eye.

Anyway, I saw your edits on her Shaolin Monks render and yes, you got it right! The way you edited the pants on the boot looks sooo much better and natural. Good job Garlador! And thanks for always being so positive about feedback and criticism. You make sure your edits keep getting better and better and that's something we all appreciate it.

And talking about constructive criticism:

Your new render edit is awesome, but, I see two things that are low in quality that I know you can do better. here's what I think:

1) Her left leg features 2 straps and what I think is supposed to be a gun holder, right? Well, it looks like you completely forgot to polish those features. There is an unnatural blackness to the gun holder and even a weird long black line that does all the way up to her stomach.

It looks like something that's not supposed to be there. Like a background you forgot to edit/delete. Please correct me if I'm wrong. And the 2 straps could use some softening and polishing to blend well with her leg and costume.

2) Just a general polish/edit of the edges of her wrists and pants. You can see that both of her wrists look very very different. One being drastically thinner than the other and even featuring a different design on it. The right one looks bigger as if her Mk4 bracelets were still there.

As for the pants, they look great overall, but, for some reason, I get the feeling that one leg (left) is much bigger than the other. It's like her pants are tighter on her right leg but bulkier on the left. Does this make sense? This part is actually not even a big deal because it's not that noticeable.

I know you are great with constructive criticism, so, I hope you appreciate my comments...but, sorry for being so picky with the details. I don't mean to bother you, of course, just to give you positive feedback because it's something important that I know you can use for the future (when you finally join NRS).



Let me know what you think.



See, I don't mind big boobs. To be perfectly honest, I like them and I'm not opposed to them. However, I absolutely dislike and oppose to big boobs that cross the line. I find the following tacky, distressful, ridiculous, and really not sexy. They are just TOO big:







Too. Much.

Yeah, I know those are just 2 characters, but, we all know there are plenty of more female examples to use.

Big boobs are nice to look at and sexy. But, that's me. I like them and there's something very sexy about seeing or MK ladies with big attributes. I also find it "cool". Is it because I'm a guy? Maybe. Is it because I find them artistic? Likely! And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think its OK to like big boobs.

However, I don't think its OK to think that big boobs are necessary and what makes a woman pretty, etc. I actually don't oppose to MK girls having smaller and more realistic breasts. I wouldn't mind, but, as long as they don't go "Ivy" on us, I like them just the way they are.

So, as big as Sonya's boobs were in MKDA, I don't think her (or any female character for that matter) has come close to the likes of Ivy and most of the other fighting game females. I mean, even my beloved Lara crossed the line back then, but, at least she didn't come off as ridiculous like the newer breast machines of our generation:



I think the main problem with Sonya's MKDA look was the BIG bulky jacket in her arms, not the big boobs. I think that's what threw things off the most. The jacket is just so bulky and squarish that, at first, it gives the impression that her arms expanded with muscles and then magically thinned. Does this make sense?

All the mk girls share the same body model in that game, and though it looks like Sonya's boobs are the biggest, you can argue that the other girls look just as big.



Excuse me?!...










Well, if you are talking about her shirtless vest in MK9, then yes, I absolutely agree.

However, I don't have any problem with her sexy looks and subtle sexy additions in MK4, MKDA and onward. Sonya is still presented and portrayed like a badass feminist.



LOL.

This is true, however, you might find some people who'd argue your sex does not = violence statement. That's something that is known to happen even in the animal kingdom.

But, we are going off topic. I certainly do agree with your position and I like the way you think.



Agreed.

Though, honestly, I don't have any problem with Mileena's established reputation in costume designs. It suits her and I accept and love the unrealistic nature of the designs. I accept the fantasy of it because it looks cool and because this is MK and it fits the game just right.

I wouldn't be happy to have designs that are created solely to be realistic and practical to actually work in a fight. That would be boring. Really boring.

I prefer designs that are less realistic and more on the "fantasy" line, yes, even for the human characters who don't necessarily need to look 100% military (Sonya, for example) in order to be believable or decent.

That being said, I am in favor of creativity, uniqueness, and originality, even in a half naked Mileena. That means that I too was disappointed with her costumes, but, it wasn't because she was that naked, it was because she didn't come close to looking as fantastic as her MKD primary and alternate designs. A real shame. I expected more even if she was supposed to wear less...



OMG that alternate is just superb. My favorite Sonya costume so far. MKvsDC being the second, I think.

But, battle-damage does the same thing to all the girls and characters. If Sonya's official costume resembled the "battle damaged" look, yes, I too would have a problem. But, that is an extra feature for awesomeness that just happens to throw in a bit of "fan service", so, I don't have a problem with it.

More than anything, I love the battle damage effect and I think its funny how they play it on the females. And I don't mean that in a sexist disrespectful way. I just don't take it seriously because that's not the costume they are actually wearing when getting in the fight. It's the result of the battle. Sure, its all about "sex", but, I just don't find it offensive.

And about her huge breasts, well, like I said above, as long as she doesn't go "Ivy" and cross the line, I don't mind (and I'm not opposed to smaller breasts either).

I loved reading your post, Mickey. Awesome points and hopefully NRS will hear what we have to say. I like your views and position on this matter.



Wow! That's cool buddy! How did you ever manage to play them all at once without feeling overwhelmed? I mean, did you try to complete and unlock everything in MKDA before moving forward? etc?

And where you a huge MK fan back then even though you didn't follow MKDA, etc? Or where you just a casual fan who's interest got picked up after MKSM?



I also think they have talented artists in their team.

That being said, I also think some of them lack creativity and brains for making some of the least original and stupidest decisions.

And specially when this is the best they can come up for a character:



You just know there's something missing. Something wrong. And lets not forget all those glorious Johnny concepts that got ditched in favor of the uncreative boring suit....



I'm already looking forward to those!



THIS!!!!!!!!

I already told Garlador that I'm so going to harass and stalk NRS with his Sonya render edits.

It will hopefully teach them SOMETHING for the future.

If Sonya shows up shirtless (or worse, pant-less!) again....than I'm just going to loose all hope on them. Hopefully they will come up with something like her glorious alternate or her past designs. Only then will they be forgiven.



It's almost like they don't even know their OWN characters....it's almost like they don't understand them nearly as much as the fans do.

And that's really sad.

How dare you diss the only reference the game bothered to make to the Tobias MK1 Comic!

I actually didn't even realize it was a nod/reference to the original comic book! That's pretty cool. Thanks for sharing.

Still, I can't help but feel that they sacrificed amazing concepts in favor of the easiest and safest to do. And it's still quite dull.

I love easter eggs, nods and references like crazy (Challenge tower, story mode, and the overall game delivered many of those flawlessly!), I really do, but, those Johnny concepts were just TOO good. I still can't understand why they'd favor the boring suit.

Just like Kitana, as boring and uncreative as all her concept arts are, she definitely had superior ideas that got ditched in favor of the two current costumes she has now (specially that alt...). I just don't get why they didn't push further with her and Johnny's designs. One character looks too plain safe, the other just looks disappointing.

Your Kitana art in your sig is, like, a huge flawless victory and what I'd expect from a team of professionals. Same with all the Sonya fan arts that don't have her shirtless or pant-less. WTF.

Well, let me know if this is more to your liking then.

I find that comparing my stuff, or Jax007's stuff, or EmperorKahn's stuff, just to name a few out of many talented fan-artists, to the costume designs in MK9 just leads one to the depressing conclusion that the word "professional" is a deception. Being paid to do something is not the same thing as being the best at it.
But then, I wouldn't really want to be paid for my art because then I'd have to meet deadlines to keep my job. Plus I'm sure on something like a video game, there's a lot of interference from others, design-by-committee, that sort of thing. Advice from others can be useful if the committee knows what they're talking about...but they rarely do.
I think the point I'm trying to make here is that good costume design requires intricate knowledge of and love for the character, you have to understand how and why they would dress that way, and it has to make sense to the audience when they look at it too. It can't be "just another assignment" at the workplace or it will fail.
The shame of it is you could see in the concept art from past games like Shaolin Monks, Midway DID have artists who clearly loved the characters and worked hard to be reverent to their personalities and tried to design remakes that would actually honor and update the way they looked in MK1 thru 3, or make sense where there was none before i.e. Sonya's camo pants and jacket. What happened to those guys? Where are they now and why aren't they drawing costumes for NRS?

Queve I understand that men who are attracted to women like big breasts. What I don't understand is the attraction to breasts that don't look like breasts. Sonya's taa taas are too big for her body, if she were a real person she'd look like a freak. MKDA was worse, because they were basically circular weird implants, but for me her MK9 boobs are too massive for her body. It looks weird, and unartistic to me.

I don't like drawings of guys that have 15 inch penises. Because it's just silly, it's not sexy.

As far as Sonya's battle damage, I'm fine with battle damage -- I think it's an awesome concept, and works well with most characters. My problem with Sonya's is that he reveals her breasts so much that it makes her look like a joke/porn star. It would be like if Johnny Cage's battle damage had his balls hanging out of a rip in his pants.

What would make me as a MK fan would be women kombatants with proportionate bodies and outfits that suited their personalities, but also stuck with reality. Mileena, like I said, looks ridiculous. If they want her to be this slutbomb character, then fine, but at least have some character mention how odd she looks.

I think you can make a woman look really attractive in a video game and give her a cool outfit without putting her in something where 95% of her boobs is showing, and her vagina and butt are covered with the least amount of cloth possible.

I'd really REALLY like to see Garlador do Kitana, Mileena, Jade, etc in new outfits that stylistically suit the ladies, but don't exploit them.

lol And yes Queve. I'm totally the biggest Sonya fan.

Very nice!

I liked how you addressed the particulars. The black gun thing on her leg definitely looks like something, now. There's no strange black line that looked like a forgotten mistake or an unedited background. The subtle change in her pants edges at the bottom and the straps is good, and, the edit on her wrists and arm definitely makes the render so much better and of greater quality. Good job!

And I personally prefer the costume without the turtle shell of the original edit. I really like this design with the black vest thing on both sides. It's more attractive and cooler. And I smiled when I saw that you kept the bangs intact. Sexy.

Love this costume and I'd take it over her MK9 primary any day (though I would still keep her stylish MK9 pants. Those are just too awesome).



Yes.

Not everything is necessarily that way though. I mean, theer's plenty of other material where character designs and overall art is pretty solid, beautiful, and smart. But you do make very valid points.

And like I've said many times before, I think its pretty sad that, as of now, the fans seem to know and love their characters better then they do themselves.

Mickey, I have to get back to you later (again) because I have to get ready for work!

Well yeah, I'll admit, there are several characters in the game whose costumes look good, particularly the ones that actually went the Shaolin Monks-style "update, not replace" route like Raiden, Johnny, Liu Kang, Kung Lao, Sindel...but almost all of the ninjas, I'd rather use one of their alts or retros than the primary, and that seems like a problem doesn't it? Not to mention the whole "sex over sense" direction they went with Sonya and Kitana that started this conversation.

I like most of the stages too, though I'm still angry about there being no castle and sky portal in the city, and that the MK2 areas don't look very Asian anymore. I feel like they've forgotten their roots and decided to emulate the art style of God of War or something like that because that's what's hip now, instead of recapturing the atmosphere of the games they were supposedly remaking.

Just working my way down the list.



At this rate, I'm starting to dread the inevitable KItana and Jade threads which will probably demand a half-dozen edits or so as well. Lol.

Only if you want to. ^^
You're good at it, so of course people would want you to do their favourite characters... Okay, that came out wrong... You know what I mean. :P

Garlador, can you take a request from me?

I was thinking -- black boots (like the ones in her alt), black shorts, and black tank top? But can you make the tank top so that it's fitted but doesn't show her stomach? And no hat. Oh, and can you reduce her bewbs a bit, so they look less pornographic?

I'd be really interested in seeing this.

So basically her MK movie look when VS Kano?

Garlador's going to have to start charging lol