Kung Lao or Liu kang?
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/01/2010 09:16 PM EST
So your argument now is "Let's embrace the whole fucking up the timeline thing"?

Yeah, I'm not gonna do that. I will never be happy with or accepting of what MK9 is supposedly going to do with the canon. I want a real retelling, I want them to stick to the shit they did the first time because unlike you, I LIKED it the first time and I think it needs fleshed out, not changed.
I don't have your bias against Liu's personality, which really is only a hair's breadth different from your boy Kung Lao's, or your completely irrational dislike for the Kitana romance, which was NEVER a bad idea, it was just vastly underdeveloped, and now they have the chance, if they bother to stick to the goddamn canon, to show us how these two really met and fell for each other, which is something I've always wanted to see. I think they're a good match for one another, that pairing them up actually makes sense given their two personalities and needs as characters. Liu needs something tangible to fight for because the audience can't relate to or feel tension for just someone's beliefs, and Kitana is a dark, dreary person with a terribly shitty life attempting to rebel against an invincible dominator, she needs someone cheerful to lighten her the fuck up and convince her the fight is winnable, a beacon of hope. Both of them are made stronger by the pairing.

You seem to dislike it because you think it makes Kitana weaker, but it was NEVER Liu Kang that turned Kitana into a damsel in distress, the team would've treated her like a soft, pastel colored princess stereotype with or without him solely because the word "princess" is in her bio and because Edenia is a soft, weak realm and an easy target for the villains. Sindel's been a D-i-D in the same number of games Kitana has, and she doesn't have a Liu Kang to blame. The only reason she gets any better treatment or how shitty and inconsequential a character Sindel has always been treated as gets overlooked is because "queen" is a more tough and powerful sounding position than "princess" is.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/01/2010 10:56 PM EST
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
I don't have your bias against Liu's personality, which really is only a hair's breadth different from your boy Kung Lao's...

Wow, suddenly Kung Lao's "my boy."

But how can I be bias against Liu Kang's personality? He doesn't have one.grin


RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Bunch of stuff about Liu & Kitana in wuv

Well first and foremost, your description of their relationship exemplifies how utterly lame it is. If that's not reason enough in itself why it should be dropped....

But don't get me wrong. I know Liu Kang is neither the sole nor primary reason Kitana's suffered hardcore badass decay. There've been a lot of factors eating away at her from different angles.

But he sure as shit isn't helping.

Pair a character with another who's defined solely by "saving the day" and being the knight in shining armor, that other character is inevitably going to look inferior in comparison. This is especially evident in the relationship between Kitana and Liu Kang.

If Liu Kang's not saving the day...what the fuck else is he good for? Why does he like her? He needs someone to fight for.....eg: rescue and/or protect. Why does she love him? He gives her hope and inspires her....the implication being without the big strong man to hold her hand, she would've failed and/or given up.

Positively heartwarming.

Now yeah, we did indeed see Kitana persevere in spite of the loss of Liu Kang...showing she's not dependent on him. And that was cool...but kind of diluted by the fact she failed and subsequently needed to be rescued by....guess who.

Further proof? Kitana's not even allowed to overcome the man responsible for her misery herself. At best, she can only indirectly help. Because, as you helpfully pointed out, Liu Kang...and ONLY Liu Kang...can defeat Shao Kahn. FOR HER.

It would take great skill and care on the writer's part to develop this relationship without making Kitana look weak and overly dependent. I failed at this myself in my Kitana fan fic. And I've no faith in the MK team to do any better.


RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
So your argument now is "Let's embrace the whole fucking up the timeline thing"?

Yeah, I'm not gonna do that. I will never be happy with or accepting of what MK9 is supposedly going to do with the canon. I want a real retelling, I want them to stick to the shit they did the first time because unlike you, I LIKED it the first time and I think it needs fleshed out, not changed.

Well, I would've preferred not rehashing or changing the past. As you know, I wanted a sequel. Unfortunately, the folks down at Netherrealm Studios....don't give a shit. The story's pretty much dead either way you slice it. May as well go out horrorshow.

And as applies to Liu Kang...they didn't get him right the first time. Then they gave him his own fucking adventure and still couldn't make him interesting or appealing. Speaking of which, how did they go about trying to make Liu Kang "likable" in that game? Downgrading Kitana and retconning Kung Lao into oblivion.
And it kills me that there were actually people who wanted Liu to take Raiden's place as Earth's Guardian after Armageddon...thereby screwing Fujin over.

They evidently don't know how to make Liu Kang work without dragging down others. How many innocent characters have to be destroyed before they finally cut their losses and drop this boring twat?
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/01/2010 11:29 PM EST
Well I'm not gonna blame the real MK writers for Shaolin Monks, since they're not the ones who fucking wrote it. Oh no, a freelancer's version of events failed to live up to our imaginations or make sense of a canon he isn't familiar with, what a surprise!

Now, if Vogel tries to tell the Liu/Kitana romance in MK9 and his version sucks too, fine, the MK team can't be trusted to do anything right anymore, all hope is lost, let's be pessimistic about everything, blah blah blah. But the problem isn't Liu, the existing framework is still perfectly fucking fine despite your objections (as a kinda crazy person who thinks Kitana should beat up Shao Kahn all by herself...) The problem will have been that the franchise isn't in the hands of a capable creative team anymore and if it WERE, the canon would be a great story just the way it fucking is.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/02/2010 02:29 AM EST
So many good points raised but so little patience typing a reply over my phone.
I'd just like to comment on the lackluster Kitana and Liu romance in defending it's viability. XD points out that it's a detriment to Kitana's character since it paints her as the bullshit "damsel in distress" and makes her appear weak (which I agree is lame.) I sort of viewed them rather as a bit of a swap archetypal gender roles in that Kitana, being the battle hardened assassin raised by Kahn, is actually tempered by Liu's self-lessness, devotion to his friends, value for life, and compassion.

If Kitana needs Liu it's not because Kitana's a pansy, it's actually because she might run the risk of being more like her father than not. Conversely, Liu needs Kitana to remind him of his convictions and his sense of responsibility while helping to ease his doubts and his guilt related to sparing Shang Tsung's life who then massacred his fellow monks. So of anyone is crying on anyone's shoulder it's Kang that's shedding the crocodile tears. If you'll forgive the melodramatic metaphor; were their relationship a blade it's Kitana that tempers the steel, hardens the blade, and hones the edge... with Kang providing the morality of the hand that wields it.

These are absolute gender roles swaps since Kitana is the "hardened" one and Liu is the big softy.

Now where this relationship really suffers is in the skill of the writing and the restrictions of the medium it's presented in (minimal screentime). Also, as XD mentions, the story suffers to plot device in setting up Liu as being the one to defeat Kahn. This could've at least been justified in that it was more of the mutual decision that Liu take on Kahn versus Kitana NEEDING Liu to save the day. I agree that MK 2 should've involved the main heroes discovering the tournament was a diversion with Kahn escaping to play out the events of MK 3.

Basically like so many aspects of the MK story, it's not as if the relationship between Liu and Kitana is a terrible idea, it's just that it was hurt by bad writing and the constraints of the medium.



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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/02/2010 03:36 AM EST
Liu kang is 1 of the most iconic charactors and he also have cool moves.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/03/2010 08:43 PM EST
mother fucker i read the hole thing i read the hole fucking thing
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/03/2010 08:45 PM EST
riptile is coll
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/04/2010 04:06 PM EST
I ALWAYS DID PREFER KUNG LAO OVER LIU KANG BECAUSE OF THE SIMPLE FACT LAO HAS BETTER MOVES THEN LIU KANG YEAH THE BICYCLE KICK IS A CLASSIC AND SO IS THE FLYING KICK AND OF COURSE THE LOW AND HIGH FIREBALLS BUT THATS ONLY MOVES HE HAS IN EVERY MK GAME HE NVER GAINS ANY NEW MOVES AND THATS WHAT MAKES HIM A BORING CHARACTER TO ME ON THE OLD SCHOOL MKS I DID'NT START PLAYING WITH HIM UNTIL DECEPTION BECAUSE OF THE SIMPLE ITS IN 3D AND HIS KICKS DOES 10 TIMES MORE DAMAGE THEN DEY DID IN OLD SCHOOL MKS BUT KUNG LAO ON THE OTHER HAND IS MORE INTERESTED CHARACTER BECAUSE OF THE UNIQUE SHIT HE DOES THE HAT HE CAN TELEPORT HE CAN SPIN HIS BODY LIKE A TORNADO THERE ARE SOME MUCH SHIT HE CAN DO WITH DAT HAT BUT OF COURSE WITHOUT HE IS DEFENSELESS AND DATS WHAT MAKES HIM NOT ABLE TO DEFEAT LIU KANG BECAUSE THE HAT IS DA SOURCE OF HIS ABILTYS!!!!!
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/04/2010 04:20 PM EST
Ryuhei19 Wrote:
I ALWAYS DID PREFER KUNG LAO OVER LIU KANG BECAUSE OF THE SIMPLE FACT LAO HAS BETTER MOVES THEN LIU KANG YEAH THE BICYCLE KICK IS A CLASSIC AND SO IS THE FLYING KICK AND OF COURSE THE LOW AND HIGH FIREBALLS BUT THATS ONLY MOVES HE HAS IN EVERY MK GAME HE NVER GAINS ANY NEW MOVES AND THATS WHAT MAKES HIM A BORING CHARACTER TO ME ON THE OLD SCHOOL MKS I DID'NT START PLAYING WITH HIM UNTIL DECEPTION BECAUSE OF THE SIMPLE ITS IN 3D AND HIS KICKS DOES 10 TIMES MORE DAMAGE THEN DEY DID IN OLD SCHOOL MKS BUT KUNG LAO ON THE OTHER HAND IS MORE INTERESTED CHARACTER BECAUSE OF THE UNIQUE SHIT HE DOES THE HAT HE CAN TELEPORT HE CAN SPIN HIS BODY LIKE A TORNADO THERE ARE SOME MUCH SHIT HE CAN DO WITH DAT HAT BUT OF COURSE WITHOUT HE IS DEFENSELESS AND DATS WHAT MAKES HIM NOT ABLE TO DEFEAT LIU KANG BECAUSE THE HAT IS DA SOURCE OF HIS ABILTYS!!!!!


Whoa buddy, next lay off the all caps ha.


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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/04/2010 06:23 PM EST
Liu Kang all the way. Easy decision. He's the original hero. They've alreayd killed him once before. That would just be rehash if they did it now, especially in the original 3 where he is the big hero that saves the day. I love his character, alot can be done with him. He just needs some fleshing out. I hope they incorporate the elements of his brother being murderred by Shang Tsung to draw him into the tournament, as back story such as in the movie. I always liked that idea. His desire for revenge against Shang Tsung is what prompts him to return to the Temple of Light and represent them at the tournament. This would also bring in conflict witch his desire to kill Shang Tsung, something that would go against his Budhist beliefs and test him spiritually on very deep level.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/05/2010 02:26 AM EST
Liu Kang. He's Bruce Lee with goddamned fireball powers.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/05/2010 02:33 AM EST
Ryuhei19 Wrote:
BUT OF COURSE WITHOUT HE IS DEFENSELESS AND DATS WHAT MAKES HIM NOT ABLE TO DEFEAT LIU KANG BECAUSE THE HAT IS DA SOURCE OF HIS ABILTYS!!!!!


I love the notion of Kung's fighting abilities being derived from a magic hat. This has to be a thing in the new timeline.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/05/2010 02:22 PM EST
So if Kang steals Lao's hat
does he get BOTH of their powers and blow up the whole god damned world?

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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/05/2010 09:09 PM EST
Liu Kang all the way! His moves are easy to execute compared with Mr. kung's.

Oh yeah, Kang is also the "reigning MK champion, and has thwarted Kahn's schemes in the past." - MK3 bio.
grin
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/06/2010 06:50 PM EST
i say kung lao because liu kang always wins you know boring i want a fight a war liu is just 2 predictable he always win i mean one tornoment is cool but all 4 in a row crazy give kung loa a chance if we make him more popualr the more well learn and see of him something new........plus the hat is awsome
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
10/06/2010 08:29 PM EST
lol. This is just as intense as the Sonya vs. Kitana debates.

I think that even though Mortal Kombat is just a fighting game series with blood and gore, the story and characters have potential to be developed into something that people can truly invest in. I mean, hey, if you're going to have a fighting game series with an interesting story premise, why not tell a good story?

I like Kung Lao more than Liu Kang. I don't want to see Liu Kang return, and I think his underdeveloped character along with his bland, relatively unchanging look and moves add to that. However, I don't find him to be the worst character in the series.

I still hate the direction that the storyline is taking. If events are going to be changed, maybe they should have Liu Kang die when he defeats Shao Kahn at the end of MK3. That way, with MK4's timeline, you have Kai with the story of him potentially becoming a champion. Having Liu Kang die earlier on would have opened up for more possibilities sooner. I think it was in MK4 when you really get that sense of Liu Kang's presence being too formulaic.

There's a lot that can be done differently. XiahouDun84 has some interesting ideas. Regarding Shang Tsung, I wish there was more to his rivalry with Liu Kang than the obvious bits. Maybe it would have been neat to have a backstory of Shang Tsung being a former Mortal Kombat champion who lost his way.

In MK3's story, I was thinking that Shang Tsung instead of Shao Kahn who creates Ermac. I have this idea that Shang Tsung would use Ermac as a secret weapon against Shao Kahn and the heroes.

Going back to Liu Kang and Kung Lao, Shaolin Monks was a good opportunity to explore their characters as well as their relationship with each other. I don't need to get into how that turned out.

For this game, if they're going to change events of the past, there should be a lot of consequences, not just with Raiden's actions but the actions of other characters. These consequences should carry on over.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
11/04/2011 06:06 PM EST
im not so keen on the both of em, liu just sounds like a bloody monkey n kung...i dunno... in his mk9 alternate he has a tight butt n he looks gay... X(
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
11/04/2011 07:18 PM EST
Kung Lao all the way. It doesn't make sense to have just ONE hero in a game full of protagonists. Liu Kang won Mortal Kombat 4 times. I think him winning the first tournament was good enough. Kung Lao should've won MK2. Anybody but Liu Kang should've won in MK3. And Kai should've won MK4 since he 's basically the "African American Liu Kang".
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
11/04/2011 07:47 PM EST
Kung Lao because Liu Kang is generic.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
11/04/2011 07:48 PM EST
babystace2k11 Wrote:
im not so keen on the both of em, liu just sounds like a bloody monkey n kung...i dunno... in his mk9 alternate he has a tight butt n he looks gay... X(


Don't bump threads over three months old. You've been warned by Mime. And please use better words...again.

Shao Kahn did nothing wrong

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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
11/04/2011 11:52 PM EST
Kung Lao or Liu Kang? In essence you need both of these characters to make their stories work. I tend to ignore the re-touched versions of MK 1-3 that we've seen in Shaolin Monks and MK (2011). Liu Kang is our "Luke Skywalker" and our naive and reluctant hero who knew of what the Mortal Kombat tournament represented by old fables passed down through his order. I always liked that inner conflict Liu Kang had with him during the first Mortal Kombat in doubting on whether or not he was good enough to be his orders chosen one, but his resentment towards Shang Tsung and his evil ways motivated Liu Kang to press forward in the tournament and form his first alliances with Johnny Cage and Sonya so that they could make it out alive. You contrast Liu Kang's purist child like spirit compared to the cocky Johnny Cage, and the strong headed Sonya Blade, all of which are naturally good hearted but you gain a sense that Liu Kang is a likable person and in a way a role model for his humbleness.

I always imagined that the Mortal Kombat tournament wasn't something the fighters from Earth anticipated it would be, an inevitable battle to the death and only one man left standing takes the cake. Imagine what you would feel like if you were pitted into something like that and realizing what is at stake if you fell in combat. I feel that this initial first chapter in the Mortal Kombat story developed the close bonds that Kang, Cage, and Sonya developed in depending on each other to survive. Raiden being there only strengthened their chance of survival and his wisdom guided them to reach the final stages of the tournament. Liu Kang besting Goro and winning the tournament is a definitive moment in Mortal Kombat and having Liu Kang move on from Goro and fight in a grudge match against Shang Tsung only made it much more enjoyable to know. We also get a huge indication on Liu Kang's character when after he defeats Shang Tsung in combat he spares his life, which in a way is a huge mockery to Shang Tsung and what he has done to this ancient tournament by deforming it into basically his all you can eat buffet. This also shows that Liu Kang brought honor back to his shoalin brothers and in his mind fulfilled his destiny. This may have been the end of the story if ONLY Liu Kang could have finished off Shang Tsung.

This is now a chain of events that spurs which introduces us to the next shaolin monk, Kung Lao. I don't like how Kung Lao's been treated recently. That during MK1 out of spite he goes to the Mortal Kombat tournament dressed like a masked guard and in a sense is trying to be better than Liu Kang, this completely contradicts the shaolin beliefs and I don't see a monk who dedicates their life practicing harmony and peace acting like. Also, this takes away from the story, having Kung Lao show up during MK2 only escalates the plot and builds on it. I wish they went back to where we are first introduced Kung Lao standing among the rubble that was once the Shaolin Temples after Baraka attacked it, and being the SOLE survivor. I always envisioned Kung Lao being a little older and having a more mature outlook on things than Liu Kang does. Kung Lao was inspired by Clint Eastwood so I can imagine him with that very cool attitude that he has in those spaghetti westerns. Kung Lao showed resentment for Liu Kang's actions in bringing destruction to his people and I can only imagine the rage Liu Kang had and the guilt he carried with him about that on top of Kung Lao digging in on his failure, imagine the tension between the two.

I always figured MK2 was a story about actions and their consequences and the only way it could be properly told is to be built upon the events of MK1 but put everything in a larger and grander scale. Each hero character introduced in MK2 had to have had some connection to the good guys in MK1 in one way or another. Kung Lao should look like the guy capable of getting the job done as he is the direct descendant of the original Kung Lao who's legend should have been told to Kang, Cage, and Sonya in the first MK by Raiden, in MK2 having the actual great great X 8 grandson of this mighty warrior only add to the awesomeness of the warrior to the other good guys . Liu Kang although is the Mortal Kombat champion I don't think he would have acquired much skill from such a short amount of time between MK1 and MK2 so I wouldn't make it appear that Liu Kang is superior to Kung Lao but rather a bit inferior due to his personal conflicts. I feel that Kung Lao over time forgives Liu Kang and sees the bigger picture by letting go of his resentment and in MK2 fights for the greater good.

I really can't choose between the two but I can say that I have a great respect for the character of Liu Kang and what his dilemmas and his actions represent and will lean towards that, but we all just can't deny how bad ass Kung Lao is.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
11/05/2011 03:45 AM EST
My favorite of the two is definitely Liu Kang. He's been one of my favorite characters since the first game and as cool as Kung Lao is, I have to go with the champion. Liu Kang is based off of Bruce Lee who is my favorite Martial Artist, and fire has always been my favorite element even if it is overused in MK. His Dragon Fatality is also one of my favorite finishing movies in the series. Although most people dislike him because he is the pure, good hero, I actually like him because of it. Not every character has to be a gritty antihero.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
11/05/2011 05:17 AM EST
Re-reading my discussion with XD after the game has come out is so depressing...
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
The story's pretty much dead either way you slice it. May as well go out horrorshow.

He sure called that one.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
11/05/2011 09:23 AM EST
To Grizzle: I see what you're saying about Liu Kang and Kung Lao, and doing it the way you described, both characters would have been so much better.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Re-reading my discussion with XD after the game has come out is so depressing...

XiahouDun84 Wrote:
The story's pretty much dead either way you slice it. May as well go out horrorshow.


He sure called that one.


Yeah, I'm afraid so. It's really a shame, because MK's story could truly be great if the right mindset and execution were there.
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RE: Kung Lao or Liu kang?
11/05/2011 09:46 AM EST
A thread resurrected from the dead.....

I don't like Liu Kang story wise, he's the most boring hero ever, it's not that difficult to make a hero interesting, give them faults. The only thing that ever made him interesting in the old timeline was dying, that shouldn't be the intriguing part of a character, it should be one of the MANY intriguing parts.

The only interesting thing he did in MK9 was his conflict with Raiden, everything else was complete generic, uninteresting dialogue and behavior.

His relationship with Kitana? Get that out of here please...his first meeting of Kitana is so degrading to her and offensive, "lol...I'm supposed to be an honorable Shaolin monk, yet I keep kicking my female opponent in the butt", that was just douchy and stupid. It also made Kitana look like a sad, sad joke. She should have given Liu Kang a run for his money....but no he's basicallhy toying with her like she's a little kid....smh.

He spares her, so she likes him. That's....all that happened in the first part.

In part two, the only interaction was him rescuing her.

In the MK3 part, only time we see them interact is when she's dying from Sindel's beatdown.

An absolutely horrendous relationship.


Kung Lao's original story and desire to apparently not fight was interesting, I'm not saying Kung Lao's better, but he used to be more interesting...he also has cooler moves than Liu if you ask me.


Kung Lao in MK9 is essentially Liu Kang's kid brother type rivalry, who never quite matches up to his peer, I just would have liked him to be more of a recluse and the anti-Liu Kang( having a good relationship with everyone), but not trying to prove he's Liu Kang's equal, just coming out of the shadows to kick butt and lay off with the " Liu Kang's girlfriend" dialogue and other stuff.


I don't support tying characters down with feuds that don't go anywhere, it's just there and nothing happens and the character stagnates.