Interesting...Although he's my favorite, I personally don't consider him to be the main character.



Ah, I see. It's definitely going to be a challenge for me to step up Sub-Zero's story. I think they should have made more use of him in MK4 with his knowledge of how to defeat Shinnok. But then again, there is Raiden...



lol...uh...there is a predictable idea of going with a female that has pyrokinetic powers...sort of that whole "opposites attract" aspect. Paragon and I were going to put in a female pyrokinetic character who had a template name of "Pyra", but we scrapped her due to purposes of streamlining the roster.



Yeah. It's even worse that they had Sonya and the Special Forces go up against the Tekunin, because you'd think Sub-Zero would be more of the one to deal with him. Then again, they seem to focus more on the rivalry with Noob Saibot.



lol, that's an interesting dynamic to have for her character; I'm not sure if I would implement the same, but it'd make her sort of funky in a way.

Btw, when will you be analyzing the next character?

gone

Ah, I see what you're saying. Sub-Zero is a staple character due to him being a big fan favorite. I do hope that the story will have a more solid structure from now on.



Yeah, that sounds about right. While I'm not that keen on Jax returning, a Sonya/Jax feud would be kind of interesting. I actually do like the way you pulled off Jax's rivalry with Selene and how it ended. But yeah, that's all for another discussion.



lol. I told you it was predictable. Maybe for this love interest of Sub-Zero, she could be a cute, cuddly, busty, bubbly, and youthful redhead who can warm Sub-Zero's icy heart. She could be one of Sub-Zero's students and her affection for him could make her a bit of a liability. Perhaps she can have some resemblance to Isla Fisher. I don't know if you've seen Wedding Crashers, but her character in that movie was definitely a crazy one. She could also resemble Amy Adams, who was in movies like Enchanted and Taladega Nights.

I sense an inspiration coming! *impersonates Pegasus* Oooh, I'm so ambiguously camp! Let's celebrate by watching the Spice Girls movie! *impersonates Croque* Oh...not again....*slaps forehead* :-\

Anyway, to get out of the Abridged mode here...



Excellent. I look forward to it. And in the mean time, I'll work on some more stuff for MKR. I hope you'll be there to check it out whenever we get it all done.

gone

Ok, so we get Kitana's story analysis, which is also very well done. You make some interesting points, most of which I'm familiar with. One that I didn't think of was comparing Kitana to Tanya and how Tanya could represent Kitana's potential for being evil without remorse. I hope she gets the proper closure or story direction. Finding a balance between Princess and assassin could be interesting.

Awesome analysis. I wish I had something to add to the discussion, but I find myself agreeing with all (or nearly all) of your points. People that still think Kitana is a fragile little princess holding tea parties every afternoon with her stuffed animals should read this.

And no, there was no magic spell making her do the bad things. I am so glad you didn't even bother mentioning it.

Your Sub-Zero and Kitana analysis' were, like nearly everything I read by you, spot-on. You are the only person I've found on these boards who I ever seem to agree with completely on the interpretations of these characters. (I was going to say "who is as well-versed in the storyline as I am", but that makes me sound like an egotistical douche. >_>)
That said, if I had anything to complain about, any flaw to pick at, so far, I suppose it would be this:

I really, really wish you'd stop mentioning the Scorpion retcon.

There's just no substantial evidence in the games to support its existence.

In fact, remember that Scorpion Myspace page, the one created by Midway themselves last year, as an MKA advertisement ploy? I quote now one of its journal entries:


Further, I give you the MK2 journal entry from Sub-Zero's Myspace page as well:


Regardless of anyone's personal opinion of Myspace (and I highly doubt anyone hates and is disgusted by the cultural value of it more than me), you cannot deny that the information on these pages came from a Midway employee who would have been given the official information on Scorpion and Sub-Zero's backstories.

As far as I can tell, "the retcon" is just something mistaken fans made up, and normally, I wouldn't really mind so much (I'd be a crazy person if I thought it would be a good use of my time to scan every topic on the site, correcting every mistake people made. Most of them don't listen to us anyway, do they?), but here's the reason it really gets my goat here:
Since you're perceived as "the expert", Every time you bring it up, it just encourages people to believe it actually exists.

By the way, any chance we can expect an update to your MK: Legacy topic sometime soon? It's kinda the only legitimate reason I can find to visit MKO at all anymore, what with every other topic now revolving around how "gay" superheroes supposedly are. Honestly, you'd think these people had never seen a crossover before with how shocked and childish they're reacting. I'm beggin' you, man. I need a distraction from that.

As much as I'd like to take that stuff as canon, I'm still convinced that a retcon took place as evidenced by the following:

The beginning of Scorpion's MKDA bio:

The ninja spectre Scorpion had assumed for many years that Sub-Zero had killed his family and clan, only to later discover that the true murderer was the sorcerer Quan Chi.

Two lines from Sub-Zero's MKDA Konquest mode:

Many years ago, Sub-Zero's brother was manipulated by the sorcerer Quan Chi to retrieve for him an amulet from it's hiding place in Earthrealm. The sorcerer later framed Sub-Zero's brother for the death of Scorpion's family and clan, which led to his demise at the hands of the enraged ninja spectre, Scorpion.

Scorpion has hunted Sub-Zero for years. He believed that Sub-Zero murdered his family and clan. Now he believes Quan Chi to be the true murderer, and will not harm Sub-Zero.

So this means that Scorpion has been after the younger Sub-Zero ever since MK2, believing him to be the murderer of his family and clan. Since Quan Chi framed the older Sub-Zero, I see only two conclusions that can come from that.

1. Scorpion blamed both Sub-Zeros and/or the entire Lin Kuei clan.

2. Scorpion thinks the Sub-Zero he's been after from MK2-MK4 is the same Sub-Zero he killed, never learning the truth.


But anyway, I too would like to know when MK: Legacy will be updated. I need a bit of a distraction myself.


In addition to these factors, there's also Scorpion's portrayal in MKSM and MKA.

You're hinging your entire argument on a brief summary of the events of MKM-thru-4. That's five whole games to condense into just a few lines. The entire point of a summary is to leave out unnecessary details.

It would waste space just to explain "He spent years hunting Sub-Zero...except for those two games where he realized it was a different guy. But then in MK4, Quan Chi tricked him into thinking the younger one had a hand in it after all, so he started hunting him AGAIN."
Why would any writer put all of THAT into a bio? I certainly wouldn't. It's pretty redundant to say "He hated him, he forgave him, then he hated him again, then he forgave him again", y'know what I mean? Surely you can see the logic there.

What I'm saying is, basically, there is a difference between leaving something out, and saying it never happened at all. The vow was left out because it wasn't important to the plot of MKDA. They never actually contradict that it happened, they just skip over it.

So if this is all the evidence you can find to support your claim, then it's pretty clear that there is no retcon and there never was. The entire thing is you and others like you reading too much into simple summarizations.

As far as your last line...it's common knowledge that MKSM wasn't written by Vogel or any member of his writing staff (if he even has a writing staff). It was written by a freelancer who wasn't familiar enough with the material and was limited by the fact that everything in the game had to revolve around Liu Kang and Kung Lao because they were the playable characters. And there's been very little since then to suggest it's canon.

In fact, members of the team have outright stated that the "every bad guy is killed" part of the plot is definitely NOT canon, and was only included because fatalities are more entertaining than letting the villain run away at the end of every boss fight. And since "you must kill every boss because Shang Tsung is tricking you into giving him more souls" is the entire plot of the game, if the fatalities aren't canon, then the whole plot is not canon. Simple cause and effect.
On top of all that, since the Myspace pages were created AFTER MKSM was released, they also serve as proof that MKSM is not canon.

And why would you even bring up Armageddon? It's completely irrelevant to the discusson. How does Scorpion being mad at the Elder Gods for screwing him over have anything to do with Sub-Zero or the events of MK2?

Look, what it comes down to is this:

Vogel has NEVER said there was a retcon. He's never said he had any intention of a retcon. He's never even addressed the POSSIBILITY of a retcon. With Johnny Cage, he came right out and said "I don't like that he died and came back in MK3 and 4, so I poked fun at it." That never happened with Scorpion.

That means the only support FOR the retcon is the word of fans.

I don't care how official you THINK the Myspace pages are. It's a fact that they're made by Midway. That automatically makes them more official than the word of fans can ever be.

Simply put, Midway says the vow happened. Any proof to the contrary is a misunderstanding.

And constantly bringing this misunderstanding up prevents it from fading away into obscurity like it should.

"Retcon Scorpion" is no more real than Nimbus Terrafaux, Skarlet, Hornbuckle, or Belokk, and I don't see XiahouDun analyzing any of them, do you?

About the retcon, I don't believe it actually happened either, as I usually consider "true" what they make official, but I think there was a bad "retcon" because they removed from Scorpion what gave him depth. The problem is not really a particular point of his storyline, but the fact that his personality was downgraded to the level of just the revenge gimmick.

Okay, so the past couple games, he's been written with a bit of a one track mind. They have put a little too much focus on the blind rage side of his personality lately.
But that's not actually a new trait. He acts that way in MK Mythologies too, which was written by Tobias, not Vogel.
If the creator of the character, the same person who says he believes strongly in honor, also sees him as someone who can be easily manipulated and won't listen to reason when he's mad about something, then that's who he is.
So he's not an idiot. His rage doesn't turn him into some sort of dumb brute that can barely talk like The Hulk (or Baraka...).
And he DOES believe in honor. Even in Deadly Alliance and Deception, he's never depicted as someone who'll stab you in the back or fight dirty.
But Scorpion has ALWAYS had problems with shortsighted anger/losing his patience, and with naively being manipulated. That's not a retcon.
---
Mind you, all of this goes out the window in Shaolin Monks. He IS written like a complete idiot in THAT game. But...y'know...doesn't count. Not canon.
Okay...he's pretty out of character in Armageddon's Konquest mode too, but everyone got the shaft in Armageddon, so let's just let that one go, eh?
What's important to note about Shaolin Monks and Armageddon is that they're the only two games where he's portrayed as a villain who attacks you for no good reason, and they're ALSO the only two MK games that have a boss fight at the end of every "level" in their story mode like a traditional adventure game. (Except of course for Mythologies, where Scorpion is an antagonist and end level boss fight, but has a GOOD reason for it.)
You can see that this is the ONLY reason they write Scorpion that way. They just like having him as a boss battle because he's an important character, and they don't bother to put any thought into it beyond that..

gone

Heh...I wanted to say my piece before you got to Scorpion because it's kinda meaningless to say "don't talk about this!" after it's already too late, y'know? Figured it might save you half the work, too.

gone

So your point is that we can't use the word "retcon", but I still think that Scorpion was better (more compelling, more likable, more interesting) in the past. Now they have overdone his most blatant personality traits and he's going nowhere.

Oh I dunno, I think the most compelling Scorpion's ever been as a character was Deception.

For the Champion of the Elder Gods role?

Oh, definitely. Think about it.
Here you have the perennial loner anti-hero, the ultimate shifting-alliances neutral guy.
Quan Chi was dead. Not by Scorpion's own hand, but he was dead nonetheless. (Or at least, so it appeared.) Which meant Scorp's quest for vengeance was effectively over, his reason for existing as a spectre was gone.
And while in this metaphorical character limbo, with no purpose left in the storyline, no reason left to exist, he ironically finds himself in the LITERAL realm of Limbo, saved by Divine Intervention.
And seeing that the end of the world is closer than it's ever been (and it's been close a LOT in Scorpion's lifetime), he finally does something for the greater good, with no selfish motivations. He's not out to keep any promises, he's not trying to earn eternal peace or avenge the dead. He just wants to save the world for once. Empowered by the Gods themselves like some great avenging angel, no less.
Think about that for a second: a creature of Hell has just become an agent of Heaven. Firstly, that's just interesting to me. Second, it kinda shows you just how desperate the situation really is, if THIS is who the Elder Gods turn to to bail them out, doesn't it?
Anyway, for the first time in Mortal Kombat history, the mascot character was in position to become the main hero character, defeat the main villain, and save the entire multiverse. Not that he actually would, because the game built up Shujinko to do all that, but certainly a Scorp and 'Jinko tag-team isn't out of the question.

And if you had any doubt they could do even more with it in the sequel... Meanwhile, his other archnemesis, his opposite number, the original Sub-Zero, who we're now for the first time told has been Noob Saibot all along, was on the other side of the storyline, becoming King of Hell.
What used to be Fire vs. Ice could clash once again some day soon, this time as Light vs. Darkness, Heaven vs. Hell?

That's damn intriguing.

Too bad they fucked it up with Armageddon.

I once thought of a way to fix it, but at this point, I'm not sure it's worth thinking about because I still think the next game (after MK vs. DC) will be some sort of complete continuity reboot or will otherwise ignore all the dangling threads left behind by MKA altogether.

Aaaanyway...I think I've commandeered the thread enough for now. I'm sure when it's Scorpion's actual turn, I'll find more to ramble on about. As for Sub-Zero and Kitana...
One point I thought was particularly insightful was the idea that the reason Subbie and Sareena wouldn't make good love interests is the fact that Sub-Zero is such a stoic, asexual guy. I mean, I can easily see why Sareena would be interested in him. He's basically everything she thought his brother was. I just can't see him ever returning those feelings, or having (or at least acting on) feelings for anyone, for that matter.
Though I have to wonder if, especially after the failure of training Frost, he ever thinks about the fact that his name, his entire family legacy, which has been such a motivating factor in his life, ends with him?
Either way, sorry S-Z 7th, but I especially don't want to see some sappy cliché involving a woman with fire powers.
Also interesting to me, Xiahou, is that you picked up on the fatigue Kitana seems to be suffering from in the past couple of games, and her general workaholic attitude. It's such a subtle thing, save for in her Unchained ending, most people probably wouldn't even think about it.
I love the idea that being forced to compete with Mileena for Kahn's affections is the ultimate origin of that character trait, just because the idea of nature/nurture and how much of a person is how they were raised/what their parents were like is fascinating to me. We've seen so much more of her being a princess than being an assassin, it's easy to forget the fact that she was raised the daughter of Shao Kahn, and her personality would still bear a lot of traits picked up from living that life.
Side note: I find it particularly ironic that Subbie's MKvsDC counterpart is Batman, since Frost is basically just Jason Todd with breasts.

To RazorsEdge701:

I'd like to be wrong about this Scorpion stuff and just be satisfied with his story not being completely redundant. Although MKSM was not written by Vogel and that the deaths are non-canon, given the way they tried to explain the stuff in MKSM, such as how Sub-Zero got his scar, it seems to me that they consider MKSM to be canon. To them, it's their way of expanding on MK2's story, which they did a total injustice to. I'd like MKSM to be non-canon, but they seem to consider it to be canon.

When I brought up Armageddon, it was basically to say that it shows just how bad Scorpion has gotten. Ok, so he's mad at the Elder Gods, but yet he's going to take it out on Taven?

It is known that Scorpion made a vow but one in MK4. After learning that Quan Chi is the true murderer, Scorpion vows not to harm Sub-Zero. However, it's been stated that Scorpion has been after Sub-Zero for many years, so chances are that he believed Sub-Zero to be the murderer even before he crossed paths with Quan Chi.

Yes, Scorpion has always been known to be that vengeful type character, but it wasn't to the point that he would come off as ridiculous.

Interesting observation of his MKD story though. However, they did make a deal, which was partially upheld.

About the pyrokinetic chick idea, it was just an idea. I know it's cliché since it's the typical "opposites attract" thing. But if Sub-Zero were to have any foil characters (unless you want to include Sareena), a youthful, energetic young woman would probably be the kind of person that Sub-Zero has not been around and is not used to. She doesn't even necessarily have to have fire-related powers but maybe something with solar energy. *shrugs* I guess it would be a matter of using the right elements and making the character into something fitting and worthwhile.

To XiahouDun84: A comparison/contrast of Sub-Zero and Kitana sounds good. I see where you're coming from with their similar backgrounds. It's kind of funny that they have such yet there isn't anything too specific or deep about their relationship with each other. Then again, I don't see Sub-Zero really interacting with much of the other heroes anyway.

I hope you sort out the stuff with MK: Legacy, because I'm looking forward to more of it.

I'm going to share with you something not many people seem to know, for some reason: People are not magnets. Opposites do not actually attact. At least, they don't stay attracted.
In my experience, the phrase "opposites attract" is something of an excuse that people use to defend why they think one person or fictional character should date another, when everyone else can see the two either don't get along or have no common ground. You see it all the time in anime fandoms especially. Fans always think for some bizarre reason that when a male character and female character are constantly arguing and at each other's throats, that it's somehow a form of sexual tension and at the end of the series, they should realize it's "true love" and hook up. Which ignores the fact that when two people argue and are at each other's throats all the time...it usually means they fuckin' hate each other. (Though to be fair, anime fans have a reason to think this way, because oddly enough, it's a trope in anime for women to be abusive harpies to their boyfriends, and no one seems to notice or mind! I wonder what that says about them...)
Any time I've ever seen it tried in practice, when two "opposites" date each other, it only lasts for a short period of time before realizing they don't have enough in common and cannot tolerate each other for very long.
It's best to date someone who shares your interests and gets your sense of humor and things like that. Someone who you can see yourself living with and interacting with peacefully for...y'know...ever. I mean that's the goal of giving someone fictional like Sub-Zero a love interest, right?
There's only two good reasons for a fan dabbling in writing to invent a girlfriend for an established figure. Either you want to explore the novelty of what a character who has won over so-and-so's heart would be like, or you want him to produce an offspring so there'll be another character named Sub-Zero in a future MK game.
And in neither scenario does it benefit your story to have him dump the girl. "Sub-Zero gets a divorce" would make a pretty shitty character bio, y'know what I'm sayin'? So you better make sure whoever you create is really "the one".
Besides, Sareena already is youthful and energetic. (Well...okay, that's actually hard to say for sure. She's kinda spunky in Mythologies, but lately she's more sad and broody, struggling to control an animalistic bloodlust and whatnot.) Still, looking as young as she does is part of the reason I can't see them together. I know she's a lot older than she looks, but I just can't get over the fact that he looks too old for someone like her now, thanks to the Dragon Medallion.
If he were to get together with someone who genuinely WAS young...it'd be just wrong. For instance, there are fans like...what's her name, Kali I think? who thought he and Frost had romantic potential (before she went all psycho, anyway), and that always just gave me the creeps. I mean he looks old enough to be her father and then some. And Frost isn't even underage, she's gotta be in her 20's. And it's STILL creepy!
Wow...that was a lot more wall-of-text-y than I meant it to be. I just kinda rambled on and on...again. Gotta stop doin' that.
As far as arguing about the vow or MKSM's canonicity anymore, y'know what? It's fine that that's what you believe, I realize I'm not going to change your mind. I presented a mountain of evidence for my case and you didn't budge, so I'm just gonna let it go.
But Xiahou's the one writing the analysis...analyses...analysises...what is the plural of that word? Anyway, he doesn't believe in the retcon, or in MKSM being canon, so why should he take the time to write about "what Scorpion WOULD theoretically be like if all that stuff WAS canon", just to be polite to a small group of people? Especially when he's already pretty much done so. No need to do it twice.

Could be awesome. They had a bit of alone time together in MK: Defenders of the Realm which explored how they are different from the other defenders because they weren't from Earth.

How could this be explored? Perhaps a cave in Edenia reveals that in prehistoric times, a chieftan or tribal leader (Kitana's ancestors) and a cryomancer from two different shared a romance that ultimately wasn't meant to be. As a result, no shared lineage, but could history repeat itself? And with a different outcome this time?

gone

Great job on your analyses! I've always "known" the MK story, but the way you explore it makes it so much more enjoyable.

gone

I can see where you're coming from with that. However, it would still feel kind of strange if he were not to deal with him. Granted, he doesn't have to be the main antagonist for Sub-Zero, but without a continued interaction, it would sort of feel like something is missing from his story.

There's still also the issue of how to go about a third story arc, and that's one of the issues that Paragon and I have for Sub-Zero's story. This is kind of why some might not find his MK: Resurrection bio to be as interesting as some of the other ones.