I have to agree that fighting Noob and Smoke in Deception and Armageddon felt like a detour from where Subbie was headed.

The worst part of it is the game never offered any explanation what he was doing in the Netherealm in the first place!

The best I can do to piece it together is to assume that as Kenshi and Sub-Zero were trying to find the portal home, they met Shujinko or Havik, learned about Onaga, and decided to join the party heading to take him down. (Subbie had already heard that a "Dragon King" was rising to power from the Tarkatans he killed, but he didn't seem interested in stopping him after he met Kenshi, probably didn't see how it was his business at the time, because he wasn't aware that Onaga was related to the outcome of his allies' battle with the Deadly Alliance...a battle he would have been at if he didn't have to stop and bury Frost.)

We now know for sure that somehow, almost every character in Deception ended up at Onaga's castle at the same time, and Shujinko was able to absorb from all of them at once and defeat Onaga. Which means at this meeting, Subbie would have seen Noob and Smoke and followed them to confront them. (Has he already suspected who Noob was? Or is he just trying to save Smoke? Either way, he's got a reason.)

But what were Noob and Smoke doing at Onaga's castle? The game never told us they had any business in Outworld. Maybe Noob had just acquired Smoke from Kahn's trophy room and was on his way home with him? Still doesn't explain why he went to Onaga's place but it's a start...

Aaaanyway, Sareena helps him, she loses her form and runs away, Sub goes home and catches Frost...then we get Sub (with a little help from Taven) capturing and attempting to rehabilitate Noob in Armageddon, but obviously, Noob and Smoke escaped to be at the battle in the crater.

So yeah, it doesn't fit Sub-Zero's rise to power as a major player to have him caught in this minor conflict with his brother.

But I'm not sure it fits Scorpion either, to be honest. Yes, it'd be interesting to see how he feels about creating a monster, of doing the exact same thing that was done to him...but at the same time I feel that Scorpion and the original Sub-Zero's business has been "officially concluded" for a long time. Scorpion has bigger fish to fry. Though maybe if Quan Chi is dead and his nonsensical Armageddon heel turn is retconned, Scorpion's next journey could be redemption for all his sins, trying to earn passage to Heaven and be with his family. In which case, destroying Noob is the perfect start.

But frankly, I just plain don't think Noob should come back after Armageddon.

As long as Noob Saibot exists, there's only two things you can do with him: You can make him a henchman, which we're all tired of seeing, or you can have him ascending the leadership ladder of Hell, and in my opinion, there are more interesting characters that you could do that with. I feel like Noob is one of the old guard we gotta let go of to make room for the new generation. He's technically been in every single game, after all. (if you count Tournament Edition for Deadly Alliance)

It's a shame too, because it means Sareena never gets to deal with the man she lo-...err...had a crush on for one cutscene...becoming the very opposite of what she saw in him - a willing slave to evil instead of a defiant free spirit.

I guess they could just put him on the shelf for the next couple games, then...say, just theoretically, in a future game where Dark Raiden has finally lost it completely and become the main boss, Noob could finally make a surprise return as the thing Raiden throws at Scorpion and/or Sareena to keep them out of his way. (Any boss with the power to yank souls out of Hell or reconstitute destroyed ones could do it, I just find Raiden most fitting)

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A lot of this is speculation, but you have to speculate on some level:

Sub-Zero/ Noob Saibot (and Smoke too...sort of):

To me there are a lot of prevailing themes here; these are all implied, none pronounced, but we have to go to the origin of the family to understand the brothers, and their relationship.

Sub-Zero, Noob Saibot and their sister were the result of a marriage between a Chinese Liu Kuei agent and an American Woman; San Francisco, CA would be a likely place for their birth, given it's proximity to China, and the high chinese population in the city. At some point, the boys father took them away from the mother; mother and daughter were never seen again.

Noob Saibot was born circa 1960; as the oldest child, we can assume Noob remembers this event (the splitting up of his parents, losing his mother and sister) more vividly than his younger brother did. This shaped him into a dettached taciturn individual, most likely as a coping mechanism for the trauma he suffered.

Coming from a long line of assassins, and with his mother absent presumably for most of Noob's childhood, Noob probably didn't feel much attachment to anyone. His father was always gone on missions, he had no mother.

I've come to the conclusion that Sub-Zero was born in approximately 1967, based on a few factors; his attitude in MK2's collector's edition comic book is depicted as embracing more modernized methods, suggesting a younger man less set in his ways.

Also, an age difference of about 7 years would result in the two brothers experiencing their seperation from their mother in a much different light; Sub-Zero would remember little of his mother, and be less traumatized by the event. Where as his brother would probably come to distrust people, Sub-Zero would have no such compunctions.

I've long considered Smoke Sub-Zero's saving grace; it's quite probable that as a teenager, with Noob Saibot being cold, removed, and muh older, and his father always being on missions, Sub-Zero found a surrogate brother in Smoke; they probably trained together, and though I imagine they were still reserved by most standards (I don't see them going to watch chick flicks together), I think Sub-Zero and Smoke had as close as you could have to a normal friendship within the harsh confides of Lin Kuei life.

Sometime (most likely in the 80s) the boys fathers didn't come home from a mission, and a young Noob Saibot assumed the role of Sub-Zero. The younger Sub-Zero, still a teenager, would train and watch his brother complete successful mission after successful mission; gradually the younger brother would feel a need to live upto his older brother's name. The divide would increase.

After the events of MK Mythologies and before the MK tournament, the older Sub-Zero shared secrets and stories with his younger brother about the amulet, the guardians, and Shinnok; this seems uncharacteristic of how the older Sub-Zero had been characterized. I've long theorized that during the MK1 tournament, the older Sub-Zero had a hidden agenda of trying to change his fortunes (his eventual damnation) by winning the tournament and saving Earthrealm.

Given the tournament occuring every 50 years, it's likely at least one previous Sub-Zero fought, and probably died, in a Mortal Kombat tournament. The older Sub-Zero would have known about this history, and had a feeling that his time was drawing near. He would not see his brother again for over 10 years, and never again through human eyes.

It's unknown why exactly, Noob has targeted Sub-Zero several times in attacks; I'm under the impression that Noob Saibot has been stripped of all emotion and that he sees killing his own brother as the ultimate proving ground to raise his status in the Netherealm.

If Noob hasn't been stripped of his emotions, and has only been tainted, it's quite possible that Noob feels a jealous rage towards his brother; by now, Sub-Zero has outlived his older brother (who died at age 32 at Scorpion's hands) and has gone from an assassin and a pawn to a great hero, a mighty warrior, and most importantly, his own man. With only his ugliest emotions left, Noob would feel great hatred for Sub-Zero because of his accomplishments.

Sub-Zero on the other hand, would still view Noob as the teenager he looked upto as a boy, and the man he looked upto as a teenager; given Sub-Zero's assumed absent father, and the loss of his mother, it becomes incredibly important to Sub-Zero to save Noob (his actual brother) and Smoke (his best friend.)

Sadly, we won't get the conclusion to this story for a while, since MK vs. DC presumably puts MK cannon on the backburner.

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If this is the bottom of the barrel for Scorpion (and I think it is), then I could see how he might try to redeem himself. Since it was his actions that led to the ressurection of his clan as spectres, it should be Scorpion that returns them all to a state of eternal rest. And since this is Mortal Kombat, I assume it'd involve his having to personally beat the living hell out of each one of them.

He'd come to realize that his clan is dead and he should leave them be. Let them rest in peace. Forcing him to re-kill them to do so would put a different spin on things. Here he is hunting Subz and Quan all these years for slaughtering his clan and now he's forced to do the same thing. Could make for some interesting character development.

*imagines short, skeleton kid walking towards Scorpion with his arms out-stretched and looking for a hug*

"Daddy!"

Scorpion: "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!"

*harpoons his skeleton kid and reduces him to bone dust*

reppy, this is too intelligent to be true...

I try. :P

I never really thought of Scorpion’s second story arc like that, interesting stuff.

Keep up the great work XD.

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Lots of interesting posts, views in this thread on certain characters.

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Sonya is written in such a way that she simply can not work. If we consider her past, picking only what is canon for sure, nothing happened. How is "I want to be like daddy" well fleshed-out motivation? It's not like we don't have anything similar in the story (relationship with a father figure), only in other cases it works better: Kitana and Mileena with Shao Kahn, Kung Lao with his ancestor, Sub-Zero and his family legacy; it all trumps Sonya's vague and generic thing with her father. The only other canon thing in her backstory is her twin's death: as bad as it can be, it is not enough to establish a theme of loss. There is no reason for her rivalry with Kano.
On the other hand, if we accept non-canon elements, everything had already happened: Sonya already hates Kano, already has her trademark (and pathetic) fear of loss, her story in MK1 doesn't add anything to such backstory; moreover, ever since the first game, it has always been "more of the same".
You mentioned many times the problem of a hero's credibility: since the beginning, Sonya has none. It has nothing to do with her being avenged by Cage, it's the situation itself. Sonya was written in a corner. After getting all her soldiers into trouble the only way she could redeem herself was if she could fight her way out of her problems and rescue them: she just fails, again and again at the beginning and the end of the game's story. Out of the seven fighters, she is the only one that comes across as an all around loser. Liu Kang wins, Scorpion wins, in a way, Raiden and Cage don't win but they don't really lose either: they simply don't win. Sub-Zero loses, but at least in a honorable way: death in battle is honorable, plain defeat is not. And while Kano is a lousy bastard he is at least partially redeemed in my eyes as he takes his risks and is proactive. Sonya simply gets her ass kicked all over Shang Tsung's island.
It took much, MUCH more than some half-assed success against Kano to redeem her, and later nothing was really improved dramatically. So, no credibility whatsoever. It's unbelievable that with such a curriculum some people (MANY people) think Sonya is a strong person (sure, you could say, after so many spankings, that her ass is durable): her list of misery is not even tragic. What's her theme after all? Sonya is close to someone... That person is in danger... Sonya is unable to rescue him/her and that person dies... Sonya whines. That's it? It's not interesting; if anything, it's mildly irritating. How many people have to be sacrificed to Sonya's ego in a failed attempt to make her look sympathetic? Sonya doesn't trust people, is rude to them, but if someone, despite her bad manners, actually befriends her, she will smother him/her with her "protection", only to be unable to go to the rescue when he/she will actually need her.
I think it is a matter of quantity: the problem is not that Sonya doesn't always win, but that she HARDLY EVER wins. If a hero wins too much or too easily, it looks like the bad guys are incompetent: the other way around the hero comes across as incompetent. That can't even be considered tragic.
There is a nice parallel between Sonya and Li Mei: the loser and the tragic heroine.
Sonya has a conflict with Kano: it takes her three games and a dirty trick to get a victory without glory (these lame Special Forces guys can't defeat an opponent without convenient cliffs).
Li Mei has a conflict with Kano: as soon as she runs into him she is able to outclass him (no tricks, no cliffs).
Sonya is forced into a tournament as a punishment for being an uninvited guest: she fights for her men. Shang Tsung doesn't give a damn about her (otherwise he would be an idiot, admitting a "powerful" and potentially dangerous Earth fighter in a tournament he must absolutely win for Outworld). He doesn't think for a moment that Sonya can win.
Li Mei is forced into a tournament to free her village: Quan Chi and Shang Tsung had noticed her "warrior spirit" and want to test her. They expect her to win.
Sonya at some point is defeated and her team is killed as a consequence of her failure.
Li Mei wins the tournament and the sorcerers betray her.

Sonya was just there for no reason and simply failed her goal. Li Mei had a purpose and was able to successfully fight for it: she is defeated only by destiny and treachery. This is the difference between a tragic hero and an incompetent who can't do anything right.
Moreover, Li Mei was developed in two games, Sonya was never developed in seven and more games. Li Mei can be established as Outworld's heroine, while Sonya is not, and will never be able to be, Earth's heroine. And Li Mei is not even a ninja, so no fuss about "originality". Had Sonya been introduced at the time of Deadly Alliance, she would have been considered a filler, and a sucky one at that.
Which leads to another problem with Sonya: role confusion. She is a filler who was believed to be a main heroine. Some people can't tell the difference between potential and act. The incredible luck of being there right from the start, the only human woman for a long time and currently the only good human woman could give her potential to be established as the female protagonist: as a matter of fact she was not. What credit she has comes from this luck, which tells a lot about how great Sonya is; the only time she can win is when there is no contest. Her story at the beginning had potential for one game or two. After Shao Kahn's invasion the tough chick was simply dragged on with no purpose and no destiny. If you say she never did anything relevant to the main plot, her worthy fan-boys (every character has the fan-boys it deserves) will reply in anger that Liu Kang didn't win his battles alone. How Sonya, and Sonya alone, stands out for this obvious fact has yet to be revealed.
"She is the original", "She is from Earth", "A main heroine must be TOUGH!"- All fluff. The main heroine is the woman with the main role. Period.
What could be done in the future with Sonya?
They keep her as she is for x future games. No comment.
They have her defeat Kano once and for all and then retire her. Aside from a gigantic "about time!" it is anti-climactic. Anyway, if Mavado or someone else gets Kano's head, Sonya might as well hug the toilet and say "I am not worthy of you".
They have her defeat all the criminal clans and then retire her: how am I supposed to buy that? She wasn't able to do as much for x years, when did she become so strong? That's what happen when you never develop a character, everything comes across as abrupt. At this point I am more interested in Mavado vs Kabal.
They just retire her and goodnight: fitting end of a loser's carrier.
They keep her around and make her Kira's rival: can they get it right? Hmm.
They have her kill Jax: can they make something out of it or will Sonya just weep some more tears on her last loss and come back as tough as before? Hmm again.
They start slowly developing her: too little too late. As bad as it is, she is established as some idiot who never, ever becomes sadder but wiser. If they make her interesting, it's simply not her, it's a new character with the same name. This way she would be in the same boat with younger ladies that are just starting to be developed. This is where her too praised coming first becomes a handicap: she has no excuse to be so little developed, she has had time and exceptional spotlight. The others are new and fresh, she is old and wrinkled.
If you never use your potential, you lose it. The MK world has grown much beyond "defend home from the Outworld boogey man", much beyond Sonya's possible usefulness. Many of the other females have better potential, better motivation and bigger fish to fry than Sonya. They rule realms, betray them, are power-hungry, want to escape hell. Sonya still has to defeat a clan for good.
And please, PLEASE, keep her the hell away from Sub-Zero: shit and chocolate don't mix. The Grandmaster certainly doesn't need her "protection": if anything, he needs to touch his jewels, as people close to Sonya have a very short life expectancy.
For her little thing with Frost, it makes sense if Sonya was just the usual asshole she is with trust. If we want to read more into it, it doesn't make sense anymore: if Frost's evil intention were not clear, Sonya must be very intelligent or a mind reader (prove it); if they were clear, Sub-Zero must be a complete moron (again, prove it). If they were to replace her, good idea. I don't think a stock character should be kept around for the sake of it, but a new tough chick can be ok as long as: they make it clear she is not the main heroine: she is not so badly annoying; she is not a loser.

Xia, once again, amazing analysis and thread.

Its a shame I wont be able to fully and lengthy reply to your posts as I always do (because I’ve read all of them with care and detail), because I find many things interesting, well though of, nicely built, and because I also disagree with a few others.

It will have to be another day when I’m less busy. Still, this was all a great read and despite not getting the many replies your thread disserves because of the new game mixed craziness, do continue with your great work.

Excellent job!



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Y'know, something that's always seemed kinda funny to me...there's no real proof Sonya HAS a rivalry with Kano.

At least, no more of a rivalry than Tommy Lee Jones has with Harrison Ford in The Fugitive. She's just a soldier doing her job hunting down a wanted man.

He's the only one who seems to take it personal, because she threw him off that roof in MK3.

I was going to read all nine pages, but just after page one I have a lot to say and ask.

1. Kung Lao is held back because he likes Kitana?

2. Why can't Lui Kang be with Kitana?

3. Why do we think Jax is turning evil?

4. How is Shang Tsung responsible for Kenshi?

5. I can seriously see Mileena reforming, but then I immediate see her turning back evil in the game after her reform or being killed. Also, the mother Mileena is an interesting story line too, except the kid would have to like jump back in time like Trunks from DBZ. Unless you want a kid kombatant or maybe Tarkata develop much quicker than other species.

6. I would actually love to see a Kira/ Sonya rivalry occur that is more than the Sonya/ Kano rivalry ever was. I would love to see these girls kissing each other to death.

7. I don't know a lot about Kai, but I think it'd be great to see an African take the lead of the good side. Sorry that I made it a racial thing, but most people will whether or not they admit it. How many Africans are the lead role in anything good?

8. I also see Kung Lao being a great replacement for Lui Kang, but I think it would be kind of too similar. Like in SSBM when instead of Master Hand you fight Crazy Hand.

9. I don't like Kitana making a chick or Edenian squad. I think there are too many squads, clans, and forces.

10. Speaking of, what is the Brotherhood of the Shadow? How relevant are they to the MK storyline?

11. I don't like Khamelion or Chamelion, but atleast Reptile can do something with Khamelion. What is Chamelion's purpose?

12. I really don't see MK ditching characters or starting over because there will always just be so much demand for the past characters to not have them show up.

13. I really like Sub Zero vs. Sektor and Scorpion vs. Noob Saibot.

14. It's a shame that people think of Bo Rai Cho as a failure because of Kung Lao, Kitana, and Li Mei. But who blames these people?

15. I think Frost dying and then coming back to life is stupid. And I agree her story is lame unless they delve further into the Cryomancer thing with her.

Okay now I finished reading page 2,

1. I really do not see Drahmin's story going anywhere besides being Moloch's buddy banished somewhere.

2. I really enjoyed everything about Li Mei until I saw her Dragon Queen ending. However, that wasn't canon? So I really can see her rising to be a main protagonist.

3. The only place I see the vampires heading is infecting someone from the current roster and fighting werewolves.

4. I didn't like Shujinko, Taven, or Daegon. I am sorry that I didn't enjoy watching Shujinko's life of being lied to and helping out the Dragon King. I am probably a part of a small group of people who would have been satisfied with "Shujinko spent a lot of his life serving what he believed to be the Elder God's as he stole people's moves. However, in the end he was serving the Dragon King and brought the story to where it is now." Taven and Daegon, hopefull will have seperate stories, but I do not think they are fun to play as or to look at.

5. This is my main problem with Sareena. I just don't have fun when I play as her. I could see her having some kind of interaction with Mileena in their quest to stay beautiful.

6. Before I stated something about Master Hand and Crazy Hand and page 2 hit the nail on the head. Kung Lao would be Lui Kang version 2. Same thing with Jade and Kitana and Fujin and Raiden.

7. I guess Jade vs. Tanya would be interesting for one more game.

8. I don't know where Ermac, Ashrah, or Kenshi are going, but I do like all three of them. Who knows, maybe they'll band together for no reason.

9. Maybe Sonya hates Kano for killing her partner/fiancee/twin and her team. Maybe she didn't kill him, but defeated him during MK1 and Kano had her team killed before she didn't win in the end and she wanted to beat him even worse the next time she got her hands on him.

Okay it's 4 am now and I hope someone answers some of my questions.

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Well, the Sonya-storyline is pretty much neutered when they decided to dumb down Mavado. In MKDA it was established that her greatest opponent was an unknown man with hooksowords. NOT Kabal at all.

Thank for for the swift reply and answers. You rock and I don't know when I'll get around to reading pages 3-9. Hopefully soon. :)

The Kung Lao/ Kitana thing was my fault because I misread what you wrote on the first page under Lui Kang. "Lui Kang has a friend, Kung Lao, who is very much his equal except for one flaw. His love interest is Kitana." Can you see why I got confused there? Just to be clear, his one flaw is that he doesn't want to be champion right?

Kitana should just... spend time in Edenia and Earthrealm to be with Lui Kang? Leave Edenia for Earthrealm and have the other Edenian's have their story there and Kitana's can be seperate?

Anti-hero Mileena sounds awesome, but I'm not feeling it for MK.

I don't understand how anyone can play as a character with Sareena's moves and not immediately fall in love. C'mon, the 5-Star kick and the fastest-projectile-ever knife throw? Sareena is the best fucking character in Armageddon.

Personally, I think they should do away with the Liu/Kitana romance all together. It's poorly developed, kind of cliche, and doesn't really do anything for Kitana. It actually kind of cheapens her bit.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for responding again. I am sorry that I am not really contributing to these huge posts and points, but I am really enjoying reading everything and sorry for the questions I come out with. I got to finish reading pages 3 and 4.

At any point, you can just say that I'll find it on a later page.

What exactly was said about Mileena and Reptile being inseperable in Mortal Kombat: Shaolin Monks?

How old is Kitana? I always assumed she was 10,000 years old, but everything in Edenia seemed to happen 10,000 years ago so she must be older. Do we know anything about how Edenian's age?

Kitana is obligated to rule Earth? I see now where she invited and was rejected by Lui Kang to be King. How did Sindel feel about this?

I don't really understand the Sindel's resurrection storyline. Why would she be resurrected on Earth and why exactly would this help Kahn invade Earth to claim her?

Is MKD's Konquest mode canon? I remember somewhere you find some kombatant's like dead body on the floor. Was it Jade, Rain, Reptile, or Sheeva? I can't remember, but it doesn't seem to be right?

Now that I read Jax threw Jarek ruthlessly off a cliff for no reason since Sonya didn't die, I guess this whole Jax turning evil thing has been a long time coming.

I don't understand this statement, although it seems pretty linear: Morihei Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, also being the founder of the Black Dragon clan; seriously...WTF?!

You stated that Frost is not Sub's sister, but it was stated that MK1 Sub had a younger brother and sister. Frost being related has been ruled out canonically?

I think it's stupid for Raiden (or Rayden!?) to be an Elder God because in MK1 he entered the tournament because he was bored and in MK3 he stepped down as a God and in MK5 he stepped down as an Elder God and in MK6 he is ruthless again. Like why would they choose this guy to be the best of the best of the Gods?

I think all the apparent deaths, real deaths, and resurrections are so stupid. I completely forgot that all the heroes died inbetween MKDA and MKD and were immediately resurrected and brainwashed. That is so stupid. All the deaths, apparent deaths, resurrections, and surprise "I was just badly hurt" are so stupid!

I didn't know Kitana killed Mileena and Mileena then died again after being resurrected. I would love for Mileena to kill Kitana, but it would be like Sub and Scorp. Sub killed Scorp. Scorp comes back from the dead and kills Sub. Like... ugh!

Kitana is roughly 10,000. She might be slighty off, like 10,002 or 10,027. I think we can assume the number was rounded.

The reason "everything seemed to happen 10,000 years ago" is because Kitana was a baby when Shao Kahn took over Edenia.



When the Elder Gods set down the rules of Mortal Kombat, one of those rules is Shao Kahn wouldn't be able to even so much as set one foot on Earth until Outworld won. He was banned from stepping through the portals at all.

But...As Shao Kahn's wife, Sindel is technically his property. And he's allowed to reclaim his property. So since she was reborn on Earth, he was allowed to come to Earth to get her. It was a loophole in the rules.

And while he was there, he just up and took over the place.

The reason Sindel's rebirth took place on Earth is because Shang Tsung set it up that way. I guess he just smuggled her dead body to Earth one day, so when they brought her back, that's where it would happen? They didn't really elaborate on that.



It was Sheeva, and it was in the Netherealm, because Sheeva died in MK3.

But whether or not MKD Konquest is canon is...complicated. Most parts are but some parts are not.



He was promoted to Elder God in MK4 because some of the Elder Gods had been killed by Shinnok in the game's prologue and they had vacancies. Plus, he's saved Earth and the universe a couple times by then, that's gotta count for something.

Raiden is the proper spelling. It was only ever "Rayden" on the home systems, because some other video game owned the legal rights to the name. That license ran out years ago, though, and now they can spell it right .

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Thank you RazorsEdge701 and XiahouDun84.

So technically if let's say Mileena stole Shao Kahn's helmet and went to Earth he could of invaded Earth saying that he was just reclaiming his property?

I knew Kitana would be ruling Edenia, not Earth, I just made a typo.