..... LMAO!

Anyway, I agree with QueenSindel on the whole "tomboy" discussion. Whoever said she was must not know Sonya well as a character or have a very bland view of her. She's tough, to put it simply, which doesn't take away from her femininity. As for her costumes, they've always matched her personality, while still straying far from a "tomboyish" look. Her tights and ponytail from MK 1 - 3 were girlish enough: I doubt you'd ever see a guy wearing those. Same goes to her MK 4, DA, and A outfits. Again, you wouldn't see a guy wearing tight leather pants or showing a bit of thong action unless THEY were straying into feminine territory.

*sigh* Ah Sonya... memories.

Before Sindel, Sonya was my favorite character in Mortal Kombat. I'd never select a character other than her, and I was blown away by her leg grab. I thought it was the greatest fighting move invented by mankind. I would go into the living room and practice standing on my hands so I could learn how to copy Sonya's attacks. To be honest, I think it was Sonya who made me so amazed by athletic women. As I grew older, I never had any respect for bathing suit models, but when I looked at strong women, tomboyish girls who knew how to hold their own and fight for their right, I was always interested in them, it would always remind me of Sonya, and how she stepped into a deadly tournament as the only woman, and kicked some serious ass. In conclusion to this paragraph, I think that Sonya Blade was the source of all my gayness. XD

So Sonya Blade in Mortal Kombat 1 as you know got me interested in women who can fight, and to this day, females have always took the roles as my favorite characters in... anything: Sonya, Sindel, Nitara, Helena, Christie (DOA), Leifang, Christie (Tekken), Tira, Setsuka, Rouge the Bat (olo), and Trish Stratus.

After Mortal Kombat Decpetion came out and Sonya was missing from the roster, which was when time made me lose interest in her. I stuck to Sindel and reattached myself to Jade. Even if I don't play as her or talk about her, Sonya Blade is still a big part of my life..... even though she's a fictional character, she's a fantastic role model for women.

Here here!

That's what I love about her.

Ok, I will do it only once: I will tell everything I think about Sonya Blade and be done with it. I've been considering this rant for a long time; I've considered the mere idiocy of hating a videogame character, but here it is, I JUST HATE SONYA BLADE.
I used to think I could tolerate her, but I met so many fanboys that now I can't watch her blonde ass without wanting to puke. It's stronger than me. Worthless, overrated piece of crap. So, I'm biased as fuck, but at least I'll try to be rational about it.

TOUGH CHICK-ISH ISSUES.

To put it plainly, I hate tough chicks: I hate how overrated they are, how people will assume one of them is a good female character simply because of that label, how she will be considered a "role model". The point is, a tough chick is a woman who makes a lot of noise to do what men normally do while they shut up: she will shout "Hey, look at me, I'm strong, I'm tough, kiss my boots, you weak female". What is so great about them anyway? The fact that they can fight? Male characters fight and don't make a fuss about it.
Now people will believe I want women to be submissive; no, I'm a woman myself and I certainly don't want to drop the spade on my feet, but I honestly feel tough chicks are horrible role models. Think about it: the concept itself of role model which is supposed to be broadcast by popular media seems to work only for girls. You never speak of a role model for boys: people don't ask for "tough guys". And when it comes to the choice of the model, it is never Lady Diana or Mother Theresa or Benazir Bhutto or Marie Curie: it's always, without any exception, the fucking tough chick.
I know this stock character was created to oppose old cliches about the "weakness" of women, but I think it doesn't work anymore. Do women still need this cheerleader to tell them how to behave? Is a "strong" woman still a scandal today?
A teacher of mine used to say that when a farmer becomes a member or the aristocracy, it is not a revolution: the revolution is when people discuss the concept of aristocracy. So, by claiming that there is a handful of women that are strong like men, tough chicks indeed, what you imply is that NORMAL women ARE weak. You go the easy way and bake a character that, while appealing to girls, actually divides all the feminine world in tough chicks/damsels in distress. There is nothing in the middle. You claim that only this exceptional woman can be a heroine and a leader, a normal woman can not be brave: the single farmer has become a member of the aristocracy, all the other farmers are where they were.
The concept of a female fighter is not progressive in itself: in the past, there were female fighters in legends and literature, but they had to sacrifice their feminine nature, so they were usually virgins or died a tragic death. I'd like to see women who don't have to sacrifice anything to be heroines, who don't have to shout to prove they are strong, but are naturally accepted as heroines and leaders.
Moreover, a tough chick is usually a very rude and unlikable person: a tough chick will never say "please", "thanks", "sorry" to save her life (just look at the way Sonya acts in ProudNintendoFan's version of Mortal Kombat I). That doesn't make you strong; it makes you a jerk. A person who acts that way can rot in hell. And people will worship her instead of filling her little tough face with slaps and slaps and slaps...
All this just to say that Sonya is, basically, a very plain tough chick cliche: bad beginning...
Such an idea is painfully OBVIOUS: Sonya is a member of this elite section of the army and is... Uh... Tough? I never would have thought!
It WEARS THIN QUICKLY: ok, so she's tough: we got it (it is not a surprisingly difficult idea). Then what? This concept does not make a character deep or complex and can not be developed slowly in the story. You don't go far out of sheer toughness. That's why Sonya does not evolve: if her personality were deeply explored, the tough note may no longer be the dominant one. She is trapped in the tough thing. A tough chick can't be anything but a tough chick.
It is REDUNDANT: Sonya doesn't take shit from anybody and would risk everything to rescue her friends. Name the MK hero who DOES take shit from anybody and WOULD NOT risk everything to rescue his/her friends.

Sonya does not have a "distinct" personality: she's a stock character named tough chick, that's it. Even her fear of loss does not make her deep. I will deal with it later.

DID MORTAL KOMBAT NEED SONYA BLADE?

Well, no. I prefer MK to be all fantasy. No need for this particular, realistic cliche. No need for a yankee girl.
The moment I saw Sonya, I thought she was the token girl who had to be in a fighting game after Chun Li: the story proved me right (goodness, she even got involved BY ACCIDENT). The first thing that impressed me about this girl was the fact that she was the greatest loser of the game.
Her (vague and uncertain) backstory should be read, as it seems, as a depressing row of losses. So far, the only canon thing is that she had a twin who died (but as far as I know he may have died a few days after his birth and Sonya may have never known him). And this information is not even in her bio, but in a few lines that some people maybe never read. The rest is some vague, non-canon crap about partners/boyfriends or both killed by the bastard Kano. Her rivalry with Kano has no canon explanation, so I suppose they were just playing hide and seek. She followed him foolishly when she had no idea of what was going on, out of her obsession with Kano, and got rightfully punished for it.
Here comes the first big blow: Sonya fails the rescue and, as a result, her team is executed. This reminds me of why I HATED princess Leia from Star Wars: Little Miss Hard Ass gets into trouble and, as a result, other people die. It's the same pattern here: Sonya should have died with her team.
Some extreme Sonya fanboys will answer that her team was going to die anyway because Shang Tsung is a prick. This doesn't really do anything good for Sonya: if she lost and they died because of her defeat, she can feel guilty and their death means something; otherwise, it means that whatever Sonya did was in vain. That's a different story: Li Mei's story, actually.
When all is over Sonya tries to get Kano again (she could not before with her team, so she will be able now WITHOUT her team: very clever...) and, surprise, she gets punished again. Little poor loser Sonya plays damsel in distress for Jax, and the two supercops lose Kano for the third time (but God knows for how long he had been eluding them before MK I).
After such great display of strategy and skill, Sonya becomes a chosen warrior: really, I could not sleep over this absurdity. I ended up commenting an old Lombard motto: "A leg is attached to its foot, a foot is attached to its leg, and a donkey is the one in charge". That's it. My theory is that Sonya was "chosen" simply because, like it or not, she was already involved, with her captivity in Outworld and such.
Sonya went on doing nothing relevant during Shao Kahn's invasion, probably just disposing of nameless minions, and got her great moment with Kano (about time). It's curious how Earth's female champion never defeated anybody with a face and a name but Kano in MK 3, but, alas, even that victory was half-assed. It does not establish her as the superior fighter and, in the end, it did not solve anything, it did not bring closure to the rivalry: Kano did not die. No matter what, he had to die for the thing to be over. There is the OIA where, anyway, Jax is featured more prominently than her, which makes sense as he outranks her.
Sonya took care of some more nameless minions, later went back to her losing routine: she did not defeat Jarek, Jax did; they both got their asses kicked by Mavado. We all know how the Deadly Alliance thing ended: at least, Kung Lao and Kitana got the "hero" death at the hands of the big evil, while Sonya and her pals were killed by nameless, faceless foes like expendable cannon fodder. So far, not a single criminal clan has been defeated. I do not know where the thing with Sektor could go, but I am not interested. I am sick of Sonya. She must suffer and die. Enough of bringing her back because she is the original, which means nothing, or because she is blonde, which means even less. A part of me would be happy if she comes back because I could go on mocking her for her ineptitude.

PERSONALITY

Considering her story, she is a historical loser. It is clear that her tough face is just a mask to cover how weak and insecure she is. We have, basically, an unlikable jerk that covers an anxious Mama Bear. She can be so protective, but if a man wanted to protect her, she would call him sexist pig. Great.
Another bad thing is the fact that you must go through the seven churches to get her trust. I can live without her trust, but the girl is so precious she assumes everybody wants her trust. Slow to trust and quick to judge, good, so she is self-righteous too. Sure, she was the good guy since day one.
Her fear of loss does not make her deep because it creates no conflict. It could make her reluctant to fight, but as Sonya is supposed to be TOUGH, this will not happen. If she is protective of her allies, this should be used against her. Make her choose between her friends and the defense of Earth. Especially considering that she has not rescued anybody so far. But, no. Too difficult. And her lack of development...
Little example of development. She had nothing against Kano, she was chasing him because it was her job. He defeated her and her team was executed. THAT was the origin of her fear of loss and her hatred for Kano. Too difficult.

LOOKS

She is praised to the stars for two reasons.


Decency

A discussion about the morality of a videogame character is ridiculous, but still, here we are.
I am not really into Street Fighter, so correct me if I am wrong. The leotard of Cammy is as revealing as the one of Kitana, then there is Elena who fights in a bikini. I do not think fans call Cammy and Elena sluts and cheap whores again and again while they praise Chun Li for her decency, self respect and yadda yadda yadda. People do not call Sakura a skank for her short skirt and Rose a decent woman for her dress. So, anything Sonya fanboys say is just Sonya famboy-ism. She is no different than other female characters, the real difference is whether they are supposed to have sex appeal or not. She is more clothed than most, but her percieved decency is overrated. No lieutenant would dress that way. A thong is more indecent than a leotard. A leotard is used outside sexual contexts, it is used by dancers, gymnasts etc. A thong is used by strippers and it does not have a different meaning.
If the point is pants=decent woman, no pants=whore, I ask why Sonya fanboys do not praise Kira too for her decency. She wears VERY short pants in her alt, but you get my point...
By the way, the purple costume of Kitana covers more skin than most Sonya costumes...

Originality

I see where you are coming from, it is a jab against ninja girls. But that sprite was not overdone like the male one and these females, for the most part, actually have a REASON to look alike. Work for Shao Kahn, same category=same outfit and hairdo. And the palette swap is dead and buried by now. All new characters were born with their own design.
Sonya, on the other hand, wears typically a top and pants...Mmm... Could be my sister. Her outfits change too often, but they stay pretty generic, without even the colour thing going for them. In the end, the convey nothing but, again, the generic tough chick idea. She is THE WOMAN WHO WEARS PANTS. Period.

Sonya is defeated when it comes to things she is praised for.
Strong attitude- Jade has it. Unlike Sonya, she actually rescued her allies. She accomplished more as a sidekick than Sonya did as a protagonist. She does not fall with arms and legs in the tough trap, which is better, mainly because of her HAREM GIRL image.
Distinct Look- Ashrah is actually distinct. She does not look like my sister.

GAMEPLAY

Not giving a fuck about her legs, rings and kisses. Give those moves to a character named Concettina and it is the same for me.
Semi-broken character, anyway.

VERDICT

Ms Blade,

It is official. You suck.

Astonishing, I must say.

Tough chicks are not horrible role models. It's women unlike them who get raped and killed by criminals most of the time. I think it's healthy to have examples of women who can kick ass and fight. In other words, women who don't conform to the societal standards men want us to.

I think you're confusing Sonya being a jerk with her grounded personality. She's a grounded person, not a rude thankless pig.

She's been badly written.... like many other characters, such as Scorpion. Yet that doesn't stop them from being popular because they're video game characters, not novel characters. It's their game components that ultimately matter.

Not every character is for everybody. I understand, but it seems to me that you hate her solely because she's a "tough chick," and that to me implies that you're probably an anti-feminist kinda of girl.

If that is so, then I would have to say.... wake the hell up! If that is not so, then I'm guessing you hate her image because it's the opposite of princessy characters like Kitana whom you have displayed in your avatar.

Either way, the only problem I have with your last post is that you think tough chicks are overrated and are horrible role models. That is absolutely false. It's the skimpy damsels that are overrated and are bad role models.

What a wonderful thread. I only read the first post, so what I say next may be repeated. Sonya "Sharp" Blade first appeared in the ground breaking MK 1. At first glance Liu Kang is a Bruce Lee knock off, Cage a Jean Claude, and Sonya a Cythia Rothrock. The person, Elizabeth Malechi, has a very striking resemblence to Ms. Rothrock that I thought that was her. To base a character such as Sonya to Ms. Rothrock means that she is all business when it comes to kombat. As far as character storyline, development, moves and special moves, poise, and overall background no other female character from other fighting games comes close with the exception of Chun Li. My money's on Ms Blade.

The problem with the depiction of women is that it is often based on opposite cliches. Angel-woman/femme fatale, virgin/prostitute, damsel in distress/tough chick. I prefer more subtle things. I still think associating the idea of "strong woman" with only one psychological and aesthetical concept of woman doesn't do anything good for women in general. Proof is that, in popular media, every female character who doesn't show that kind of image, no matter what, can be easily assumed to be weak.
I don't like tough chicks IN FICTION (as I'm talking about characters, not people), because they are usually poor concepts: one-note characters and bitches, personality-wise. IMO, Sonya is no exception. They wasted whatever potential she had to keep her a tough chick. In most fanfictions about MK I, when she starts interacting with Cage she treats him like dirt under her shoes without any real provocation (in PNF's, when Cage confronts her about it, she breaks down rather pathetically). I am not really against aggressive females, but baseless aggressiveness should be considered a flaw.
Back to Sonya herself, I could simply ignore her, as I don't count her among the main characters, but really, too many fanboys ready to swear she is the best female character, a great fighter an a "role model", when there is an abyss between what her image should suggest her to be (an effective kickass heroine) and what she actually is (a pushover). If she struggles so much to defeat a normal opponent, I am not going to believe she is a great fighter, and no "attitude", no pissed off face, leather pants or ridiculous Rambo pose can change that. And before you accuse Kitana of being a damsel, keep in mind that so far only one woman has played a traditional damsel in distress role in a game of confirmed canonicity, and that woman is Sonya Blade.
What has she done to be considered a role model? When I think about a role model, I think something in the lines of: "Solve your problems the way she would solve hers". Sonya does not solve her problems, she is still the same paranoid, frustrated soldier with personality issues (you could say the same about Scorpion, for example, but his situation is a bit more serious I think). She's as much a role model as Scorpion is. Heroes don't always win, but how can I respect a heroine who does NOT defeat her foes?
And her smothering fear of loss... Girl, if you can't handle it, work in a kindergarten.
I'd take Ashrah, Sareena, Kitana and Nitara as role models: Ashrah and Sareena because, despite being slaves, are using their free will trying to improve themselves and get rid of their evil nature; Kitana and Nitara because they single-handedly freed a realm. They are to Edenia and Vaeternus what Liu Kang is to Earthrealm.
And I chose this avatar simply because I wanted a feminine one and I have nothing against Kitana; my true fav is Sub-Zero (not original, I know).

You have an interesting perspective on this subject, but I simply don't think it's fair to dub Sonya as a bad role model simply because of her lack of accomplishments in her storyline.

Whether she has defeated her opponents or not, it doesn't change the fact that her attitude and personality is superior to those "effective" females you mentioned, such as Kitana and Ashrah.

What Sonya lacks in story, she makes up for in personality. Reason why is because lots of females come with very bland, straightforward personalities. Kitana is the worst of these, imo.

Sonya on the other hand is full of personality, emotion, opinions, and energy.

Her and Jade have the richest personalities, imo, because of their adamant toughness, intense loyalty, focused determination, and unique characteristics (Sonya being aggressive and intiative, Jade being stealthy and mysterious). All other females are usually just plain evil or plain good, if you haven't noticed.

There are some differences between them of course, but they're mostly the same thing over and over. Take away their stories, and how does Mileena's personality differ from Kira's? How does Sindel's differ from Kitana's? And take other females like Li Mei and try pointing out special characteristics that they have. Difficult, huh? Because they're so flat.

What makes Sonya so great is that her personality stands out and has flavor to it, unlike other females who are more like the same good or bad puppets that the MK team happens to carry through different stories and provide different looks for.

Hmm, very interesting conversation. Sorry QS, but I have to side with Warlady for the most part on this one.

As I said before, I don't hate or dislike Sonya, but I think that she is really lacking certain things. I have to strongly disagree with the notion of Sonya having the richest personality along with Jade. One thing that Sonya greatly lacks is character development. At the end of the day, Sonya is more or less the same as she was back in MK1, a brash, aggressive lieutenant based off of the "tough chick" character type.

I also have to strongly disagree with the notion of most other females being bland and flat in terms of their personalities. To me, you are greatly underrating Kitana while greatly overrating Sonya. Kitana has a lot more going for her in more ways than one. Not only has she accomplished more as a character, but she's also gotten development and has more to her than Sonya does. I think what gives some people the bad image of Kitana has to do with the title of "Princess". She had become very much involved with the Edenian story, so a solution would be to kind of distance herself from it.

Now, you asked Warlady about what would happen is the stories were to be taken away. The thing is, the stories give some idea as to what these characters are like. When comparing Mileena and Kira, what makes them different is that while Mileena is power-hungry and full of hatred, Kira is very cunning, calculating and believes in anarchy. For Sindel and Kitana, it's hard to say since Sindel (as well as Jade) don't have much going for them. We haven't really gotten much of any real insight into Sindel's personality. And as for Li Mei, she starts off as naive and maybe a little brash, but she later becomes tainted and a little cold because of it.

Also, I have to argue when you say that all other females are usually just plain evil or plain good. That's not the case with the likes of Sareena, Nitara, and Ashrah. Sareena wants to be good, but she has the issue of overcoming her demonic instincts. Nitara wants to protect her people, but she isn't afraid to use cunning and underhanded tactics to accomplish her goals. Ashrah believes that she's fighting for a good cause, but she's rather overzealous, much like Hotaru. I'd say that aside from Kitana and Mileena, most of the post-MK4 females have more going for them than the pre-MKDA females.

Overall, Sonya just doesn't have much going for her in terms of her character and personality. She's tough, brash, and aggressive, but what else is there? What kind of depth does she have as a character?

You're basing your decision solely on story yet again, not the character's personality, which is what I was talking about to Warlady.

I simply find that few characters in MK have unique special personalities that make it easy to distinguish them from everyone else.

Those that you mentioned (Sareena, Kira, etc.) you were defending for having unique stories, goals, and accomplishments, not unique and well-defined personalities. There is a difference.

I figured you'd agree with what Warlady is saying against Sonya because you believe a character is only good when they have a good story, so Sonya in automatically rendered garbage in your book despite her brilliant personality and other popular characteristics she carries.

Try pointing out Kitana's personality characteristics without mentioning her goals and other story-related things she's done or has.

All I know about Kitana's personality is that she's formal, serious, romantic, and caring, like a typical good-sided female character, while Sonya is tough, aggressive, firmly loyal, firmly determined, caring, grounded, bossy, athletic, initiative, and caring. These are all obvious traits this female possesses. Kitana on the other hand.... the list runs a bit short, if you ask me. She has a majorly flat and ordinary personality. In other words, dreadfully boring. Jade does have more personality than that despite a puny story.

That's what I see. I see that Sonya actually HAS a personality, while Kitana and most other females are just characters with plainly good or bad personalities who happen to go through different events and have different goals.

Sareena and Li Mei don't even have a set personality yet because their confused about their alignment. In other words, you can't say they even have a definite personality because we aren't even sure about the type of characters they are. Right now, the only words I can think of to describe their personalities are "confused" and "untrustworthy."

I really think you're looking more at the roles and events the characters go through rather than the characters' personality traits. Stories do help explain a character's personality but once they've been established, personality traits can stand on their own, regardless of any events. And in this department, I believe Sonya outdoes the other females by a longshot.

But how do you determine Sonya's personality? Where do you draw it from, her looks, her gameplay style, or something else or something more?

I wouldn't say that Sonya is garbage due to her story. I said that I don't hate or dislike her. In terms of her story, I feel that the quality is pretty mediocre, nothing outstanding. Kitana's story is far more developed, and she has come a long way, forging her own destiny much like Sub-Zero has. However, Kitana's story has certain issues in itself, but even then, she has actual development as a character while Sonya's character development is non-existent.

I don't think that a character is only good when they have a good story, otherwise, I wouldn't be a fan of Jade. Speaking of her, I don't see how she has more personality when we don't even know all that much about her. But nonetheless, I still like her.

About some of the characters like Kira, well, I wasn't really talking much about her story unless you want to count the anarchy part. Her MKD alt bio implies that she believes in anarchy. That's part of her personality, isn't it? Also, I mentioned her being cunning and calculating, but I didn't really go into her story for this. However, Kabal DID choose her, because of her discipline, her cunning, her calculative tactics, etc. Wouldn't you think that Kira is tough like Sonya is?

Sareena does have a definite personality, and she isn't confused about her alignment. She clearly wants to be loyal to Sub-Zero and the Lin Kuei. Her personality is one of self-confliction, not confusion.

Going back to Kitana, I have to more or less ask you the same question as with Sonya. Just how do you come to those conclusions about Kitana's personality? The way I see it and understand it, Kitana is a character trying to make up for her very dark past by doing good, only to have constant strife and grow weary of that continued strife. She started from being a loyal assassin to a rebel that forges her own destiny to become a diplomat and military leader. Wouldn't she be tough and determined, especially when her forces and the Shokan forces are trying to take down Shao Kahn's militia? If she weren't tough and instead were weak or something, what kind of leader would she be?

You once again brought up the notion of most other females being either plainly good or bad in terms of their personalities. But once again, I have to argue with that. Sareena wants to be good, and tries to be loyal to Sub-Zero and the Lin Kuei. However, she has the dynamic of struggling with her demonic instincts. That's part of her character and her main obstacle. Ashrah believes to be fighting and slaying evil, but she is rather overzealous and possibly even extreme. Technically, Nitara and the Vampires didn't even do anything to provoke Ashrah, but yet Ashrah is going around slaying Vampires anyway. This is in contrast to how the Forces of Light keep trying to defend Earth from danger.

So again, I want to know how you determine the personalities for these different female characters, namely the criteria you use.

"Sonya is tough, aggressive, firmly loyal, firmly determined, caring, grounded, bossy, athletic, initiative, and caring."
Which is basically a bunch of different ways of saying essentially the same thing: Sonya is tough, yet caring. Like any other standard-issue "tough chick."

Kitana is also fiercely determined. She's pro-active. Steadfast. She's a workaholic. She has a slight superiority complex. She's hopeful. She bottles her pain. She's calm & reserved, but can be impatient. She can be loving, but also very cold. Kitana is hardly flat or one-dimensional. She's a rounded character with many faces.
And Mileena....serious inferiority complex. Shown to be somewhat psychotic. Hints of self-loathing. Intense jealousy. She misinterprets anything Kitana does as an attack or insult against her. Delusional. She projects herself as confident and seductive when inside she despises what she is.

It's hard to ascribe true personality to most other female characters when they've been in so few games when compared to Sonya, Kitana, & Mileena.
However, I can give one significant difference between Kitana and Sindel: Kitana has a much stronger and determined will than her mother. Sareena's desire to be good shows a strong hopefulness on her part....even though she retains uncertainty about herself. That's as much, if not more, personality as a lot of other characters, male or female. As hated as Tanya may be, she has personality. She's conniving, yet cowardly. She tries to avoid danger or hard labor. She tries to make herself appear innocent when she's anything but. She's carefree about the lives she ruins. Utterly selfish.

What seems to touble you about a lot of other character is they aren't as in-your-face about their personalities as Sonya. Sonya practially wears a sign on her chest that screams "I'M TOUGH!" Kitana & Mileena's personalities and character are defined by their actions. Action defines character. That's why when describing their personalities, their stories and accomplishments are often cited.

I'd also like to know...aside from being extremely loyal and determined....what is Jade's personality?

Warlady, while I do agree with some of your views and you are entitled to your opinion, it seems pretty obvious that for someone who wants to try to be rational about a videogame character, you are simply completely biased and boiling under some strange frustration and too much anger, extreme actually. It sounds like you are extremely frustrated about a videogame, and no offense, about yourself.

You seem to have some serious issues with “tough chicks”, and while I can see why that could be, just because you say it doesn’t make it true: They are not horrible role models. QS(TB) already said the rest for me.

You said: “The point is, a tough chick is a woman who makes a lot of noise to do what men normally do while they shut up: she will shout "Hey, look at me, I'm strong, I'm tough, kiss my boots, you weak female". What is so great about them anyway? The fact that they can fight? Male characters fight and don't make a fuss about it.”

According to you...that’s the point? You seriously have the entire concept wrong. You are basing your big hate/view on stereotypes, which makes your other views seem kind of hypocritical considering you are generalizing woman, burying them into a single concept and context without really giving the opportunity for such stereotypes to be viewed like the should be, an abused exaggeration. Just by reading your “what’s so great about them anyway?” makes me wonder if you have had the bad luck to meet chicks with that sort of exaggerated attitude, and they drove you to hate them for being, say, different or annoying, or both.

Either way, its very stupid to say “male characters fight and don’t make a fuss about it” , you are not being rational at all if you live in a world where you think that’s true, and I don’t even need to refer to stereotypes because “males” are known for their very special “primitive behavior”, take note that that’s just a way of expressing an idea. Call it whatever you want, but if you really think males in general stay quiet about their “amazing fights”, you would be really surprised. Its just like sex, most of them, not all of course, but most of them like to paint things bigger and better, they don’t “shut up” about it. (And again, I'm not generalizing, and yes, I'm a men).

“So, by claiming that there is a handful of women that are strong like men, tough chicks indeed, what you imply is that NORMAL women ARE weak.”

“Normal woman”????? So, being a “tough chick” makes you a freak now? The “tough chick” expression is also, after all, a manner of speech that could imply many positive things you seem to refuse to see. It doesn’t have to mean that woman are weak, it could actually be a motivation for woman to be more strong, decisive, perseverant, etc. in this crappy world “ruled” by men, general sexism, and the “macho bullshit” you see around. You don’t need to be a girl with a dick to be strong.

Does that make woman weak? No, it doesn’t. But we are still living in a sexist world, no matter how much “girl power” we all like to think there is, its still not strong enough. Like hunger, poverty and crime, we see that everyday.

Either your strange hate towards Sonya has clouded your inner eye, or your inner eye was clouded by the world we live in that led you to hate Sonya because of it.

“You go the easy way and bake a character that, while appealing to girls, actually divides all the feminine world in tough chicks/damsels in distress. There is nothing in the middle. You claim that only this exceptional woman can be a heroine and a leader, a normal woman can not be brave: the single farmer has become a member of the aristocracy, all the other farmers are where they were”

That’s bullshit. Nothing in the middle??? I could give you plenty of examples, but just to make things faster, look at the very game you play:

Ever heard of Li Mei, Jade, Sindel, Ashrah, Sareena....

Would be nice to mention Hermione Granger btw. And hey, if you want a real life “in the middle” super hero woman you have Evita Perón among many other great figures.

“Moreover, a tough chick is usually a very rude and unlikable person: a tough chick will never say "please", "thanks", "sorry" to save her life (just look at the way Sonya acts in ProudNintendoFan's version of Mortal Kombat I). That doesn't make you strong; it makes you a jerk. A person who acts that way can rot in hell. And people will worship her instead of filling her little tough face with slaps and slaps and slaps...”

Again, you don’t seem to be rational at all in your posts if you consider yourself to be above everyone else in order to condemn someone to “rot in hell” just because he/she has issues you prefer not to deal with, help or tolerate. What makes you think you know all their problems to call them jerks? I agree 100% that there are some people like that, but you just keep generalizing. And since you are speaking of Sonya, your post makes no sense considering she hasn’t been that kind of bitch in the games.

“All this just to say that Sonya is, basically, a very plain tough chick cliche: bad beginning...”

Please, all MK characters are based on some sort of “cliché”. If you hate clichés that much, then you might as well just drop everyone else in the garbage can as well. Now, if you hate THAT particular kind of cliché, well, that’s you so no problem.

“Name the MK hero who DOES take shit from anybody and WOULD NOT risk everything to rescue his/her friends.”

What’s your point??? Why don’t you name it. By your logic, you shouldn’t even like the other Mk characters, considering they too are plain and obvious, just like Sonya, in your opinion.

“Sonya does not have a "distinct" personality: she's a stock character named tough chick, that's it.”

Yes she does. The fact that you cant stand her doesn’t mean you are right. While she might be based on stereotypes or clichés like ALL the other Mk characters, you still have her being the only one like THAT in Mortal Kombat. She is distinct in our “Mk world”.

Take Kenshi for example, he is blind and still can do wonders. That doesn’t make him that original, superb or distinct outside MK, but IN that game, he sure as hell is, and just as much as Sonya for being the “tough bitch who will make you cry for trying to hurt her friends”. Sorry, but your argument is invalid.

“DID MORTAL KOMBAT NEED SONYA BLADE? Well, no. I prefer MK to be all fantasy. No need for this particular, realistic cliche. No need for a yankee girl.”

And your word is law? I actually LOVE the way Mk mixes some “reality” elements in its “fantasy” storyline. If you haven’t noticed, its been like that since the first game, and some of the major story elements are from Earth. What did you expect?

“The first thing that impressed me about this girl was the fact that she was the greatest loser of the game. ...Here comes the first big blow: Sonya fails the rescue and, as a result, her team is executed. .... It's the same pattern here: Sonya should have died with her team.”

Omg! LOL!

I guess you are not allowed to be alive if you aren’t *perfect.* Your reasons for hating Sonya seem more vague...

“Some extreme Sonya fanboys will answer...”

But, aren’t you being an extremist too?

“really, I could not sleep over this absurdity. That's it. My theory is that Sonya was "chosen" simply because, like it or not, she was already involved, with her captivity in Outworld and such.”

And my theory is that you couldn’t sleep because you hated the fact that Sonya was a Chosen Warrior (and the only chosen female fighter since day 1 to be exact) because you hate her. Its quite sad actually. I read through your post and the only thing you have done is turn things to one side, an extremist side. It would had been much easier to just cut the crap and say you hate everything about her simply because she sucks and that you refuse to see any good in her character.

You are greatly underrating Sonya. There was not one positive thing about her character in your post, and the few things you accidentally slipped that you liked about her, you pretended to be indifferent.

“I am sick of Sonya. She must suffer and die. Enough of bringing her back because she is the original, which means nothing, or because she is blonde, which means even less. A part of me would be happy if she comes back because I could go on mocking her for her ineptitude.”

You are so biased I cant believe you actually went to the trouble of saying you were going to “try” to be rational. Sorry, but you are being a complete hypocrite...and judging your last line up there, immature/childish. Not trying to offend you or anything, but it does suck to see you judge things according to your convenience while affirming to try to be “rational” about it.

“It is clear that her tough face is just a mask to cover how weak and insecure she is.”

Lol, girl, its just a *videogame* character. And anyway, that has been speculated in the past and its actually great and many love it. I sure hope to see them develop more of that part of her if she is to return for the future. Whats so wrong about that? After all, it does make her “feel more human”. It rocks.

“She can be so protective, but if a man wanted to protect her, she would call him sexist pig. Great.”

*sigh* I will just quote QS(TB): I think you're confusing Sonya being a jerk with her grounded personality. She's a grounded person, not a rude thankless pig.

“Another bad thing is the fact that you must go through the seven churches to get her trust. I can live without her trust, but the girl is so precious she assumes everybody wants her trust. Slow to trust and quick to judge, good, so she is self-righteous too. Sure, she was the good guy since day one.”

Considering it has been proven that she has been right about being like that in the past, I don’t see how you can blame her. I’m pretty sure we can all “live without her trust” considering she is not real. And what exactly makes you assume “she wants everyone to want her trust”??? That’s bullshit.

In terms of fiction/story, that has actually proven to be interesting and very cool. She was right all along about Frost in the games. And I remember how very well they developed that trait of her personality in the cartoons (being right about Kabal, yet wrong about Sub-Zero), and the movies. If you are too biased to see the positive things she has about this, you shouldn’t even be trying to act as if you were given her a chance.

“So, anything Sonya fanboys say is just Sonya famboy-ism. She is no different than other female characters, the real difference is whether they are supposed to have sex appeal or not. She is more clothed than most, but her percieved decency is overrated.”

Sorry, but it is different. No one is saying she is a saint nun: Of course she has sex appeal, it’s a videogame character with boobs that defy the rules of gravity, a belly piercing and a thong, what did you expect!? The difference and fact is that she dresses with more “decency” then the rest, and that doesn’t make the others sluts. You are making a big deal out of nothing.

And the fact that you said this very stupid thing...:

“By the way, the purple costume of Kitana covers more skin than most Sonya costumes...”

...Confirms even more the fact that you are frustrated and biased beyond comprehension. You refer to Sonya fans as “fanboys” in general, well, what are you? Your attitude pretty much screams you are one of those “fanboys” you criticize.

“Your entire Originality post”

Wow, you were SO unsurprisingly quick to find 10000000 excuses for those female characters to be original and awesome the way they are, yet, you fail to see something positive in Sonya??? That’s sad. “Period.”

“Your gameplay part”

LOL. I knew it all along. This part wasn’t even needed for confirmation.

“Proof is that, in popular media, every female character who doesn't show that kind of image, no matter what, can be easily assumed to be weak. I don't like tough chicks IN FICTION (as I'm talking about characters, not people”

Bullshit. “Tough chicks” aren’t even the center of attention of media considering that many of the females that represent or play a role in a huge variety of whatever-you-want are practically sexy looking girls with a lot of feminine qualities yet incredible strong and deadly as well. They are viewed as anything BUT weak. And sorry, but with your whole analytical views above, you were also referring to touch chicks in real life and you made it a post about tough chicks as “people” as well, to say you weren’t contradicts your above rant.

“baseless aggressiveness should be considered a flaw.”

Yeah, well, that’s what they are FANFICTIONS, right? And who said its “baseless”? And who says it’s not a “flaw”?

“I'd take Ashrah, Sareena, Kitana and Nitara as role models: Ashrah and Sareena because, despite being slaves, are using their free will trying to improve themselves and get rid of their evil nature; Kitana and Nitara because they single-handedly freed a realm. They are to Edenia and Vaeternus what Liu Kang is to Earthrealm. ”

And I’d say you could take Sonya because despite of her potential problems or “unbalanced” personality, she always has the heart and soul to be there for her friends, staying loyal, real and true to their love, as well as being there for her country and willing to die in battle to rescue those she loves and cares about as well as her supreme vision of JUSTICE.

See? I wouldn’t be surprised to see you disagree because you are probably wayyyyy to biased to see that. That fact is you hate Sonya. And while you have some excellent reasons that are to be respected, you have a huge variety of vague reasons that seem to be more the product of extreme frustration and anger more then anything else.

And neither Kitana or Nitara “single-handedly” freed their realms, so whats your point?


***EDIT:****Btw, I just remembered how Warlady criticized Sonya for having to deal with Kano and greatly underrated his potential. This is crap based on bias. Kano is a formidable warrior, and he was the one who defeated Kitanas attempts during MKDA’s war, and was only made to retreat when the Shokan decided to ally themselves with the princess and because he found out about Kahn. Kano is capable, tough and intelligent enough both in battle and as a main leader figure to defeat Kitana as well, does that maker her suck? Does that make Kitana Lame. I dont think so.

Warlady, you also said: A thong is used by strippers and it does not have a different meaning.

Now, thats just plain stupidity. Complete idiotic stupidity. Judge a woman for being a stripper or a whore just for wearing a thong? Whats wrong with you? In what world do you think you are living? Im sorry, but thats very idiotic and offensive.

By your logic, we have many strippers walking around. *rolls eyes*

You also said: reminds me of why I HATED princess Leia from Star Wars: Little Miss Hard Ass gets into trouble and, as a result, other people die. It's the same pattern here: Sonya should have died with her team.

Really? Because if you actually paid attention to the story instead of being biased you would see that the ENTIRE team was hot on the trail of Kanos. Doesn’t mean its Sonyas entire fault. Get your facts straight.

Her (vague and uncertain) backstory should be read, as it seems, as a depressing row of losses

And if having suffered losses makes you a lame character, you can say the same thing for many of the Mk cast. That’s stupid.

When all is over Sonya tries to get Kano again (she could not before with her team, so she will be able now WITHOUT her team: very clever...) and, surprise, she gets punished again. Little poor loser Sonya plays damsel in distress for Jax, and the two supercops lose Kano for the third time

Bullshit. Have you even read the canon story of Mk2’s comic book? Get your facts straight before making silly assumptions.

It's curious how Earth's female champion never defeated anybody with a face and a name but Kano in MK 3

Whats your point? Did she have to defeat the entire cast to be acceptable to your eyes? I recall many great characters not even killing or fighting 1 main adversary with a face and name, and just because they didn’t, that doesn’t make then unworthy or lame.

There is the OIA where, anyway, Jax is featured more prominently than her, which makes sense as he outranks her.

Jax only just started to get away from Sonyas shadow and be featured individually, not more prominently, 2 very different things. He started baby steps in MKDA and got it very well in MKU and MKA. And the way we have seen it, Sonya seems to be in command of most stuff and the iconic leader representation of the entire SF plot, like it or not, and the team views her like this as well.

at least, Kung Lao and Kitana got the "hero" death at the hands of the big evil, while Sonya and her pals were killed by nameless, faceless foes like expendable cannon fodder.

That’s a lame attempt to diminish Sonyas and the others potential. Even if she had faced Shang tsung or Quan Chi, you would still be saying biased bullshit about it and praising Kitana and Kung Lao. That's very lame.

Especially considering that she has not rescued anybody so far.

So what? Does a character need to rescue someone in order to be awesome? And, again, learn your mk and get your facts straight. She rescued Cyrax with Jax’s aid.

Work for Shao Kahn, same category=same outfit and hairdo.

That’s biased crap.

And the palette swap is dead and buried by now. All new characters were born with their own design.
Sonya, on the other hand, wears typically a top and pants...Mmm... Could be my sister. Her outfits change too often, but they stay pretty generic, without even the colour thing going for them. In the end, the convey nothing but, again, the generic tough chick idea.

So what in the world are you trying to say? Your entire post contradicts itself in severe ways. You are criticizing Sonya for dressing typically while other characters change and get new designs, yet you then bitch about her getting new looks too often.

That you don’t like her looks is acceptable, but saying that changing too often is bad is were you are wrong. The majority would agree that its actually time to see some of the more redundant boring concepts changed and improved. Thank God, Sonya has been lucky enough to get different new fresh looks in all her games, making her feel fresh and worked on, instead of just using the same tiring generic swimsuit that characters like Kitana have, yet, you don’t complain about her having generic typical attributes.

VERDICT

Ms Blade,

It is official. You suck

I'm sorry to blow up your delusion bubble, but your word is not law.



While you do have some good points, your posts are also semi-biased considering you did find something to disagree with QS(TB), but not with the other post which is, in general, biased.



Well said! While I do agree with most of your stuff, I dont really think/feel the same way about your views on certain females, namely Kitana. I can see were you are coming from with some of that stuff, but I dont see Kitana as plain. I have to go with Xia's views on that one. Aside from that stuff, I can understand what you are saying about the stories and personalities, etc. Most of your views make perfect sense.

But queve, by siding with QS(TB), aren't you being biased or semi-biased as well, especially since you're a fan of Sonya?

I said that I had to side with Warlady for the most part, but not entirely. While Warlady hates her and wants her to die, I don't think she's all that bad. I just find her to be mediocre, because she has no character development and not much depth in her personality aside from being tough and authoritative. I think that if they play their cards right, Sonya could improve, but I doubt they'll go that extra mile. About the originality thing, none of the characters from MK1 were original at all, not even Sub-Zero.

Sonya does stand out in some ways, but not necessarily with the "tough chick" thing. One thing that makes her stand out is that she's the only female protagonist character in MK that's from Earthrealm. But as a character herself, what exactly is there that makes her more interesting than the likes of Kitana, Mileena, Kira, Sareena, Ashrah, etc.?

Just in case, I had edited my post before/while you were writing/posting yours.



Not at all, because I haven’t sided with QS(Tb), I have only given my views on the matter.

Also untrue because I have agreed (now and then) with the faults Sonya presents as a character in her development. Besides, one could agree with certain views of Warlady if they weren’t that obviously unfair.



The “most part” was just saying Sonya sucks without any constructiveness. Vague reasons that have to do more with underrating/hating a character then real problems with the mediocrity it can have are entirely different things. I dont see how that isnt biased.



You see? Exactly my point. Exactly what I said.



I disagree. The “tough bitch” thing does makes her stand out. That’s the very reason why its even being discussed. If it’s a question of whether one like it or not, or whether its original or not, that has little to do with the fact that’s its become a “trademark” of hers.



For me? Her powerful and obsessive struggle against the criminal organizations which I happen to adore, her huge and utter hate against those who are one her way, her capacity of truly caring for her people, etc.

Sure the tough bitch has some story issues that need some serious fixing in order to give her that “spark” again, and its not that hard considering classic characters like Rayden and Jax suddenly went WOW.

Also, liking a character is a very subjective thing. A thing that also makes her more interesting for me is her overall skills of specials, fatalities, etc. Just plain awesome.

Subjective.

Sub_Zero7th....

I get her personality from her behavior. You know, the things she tends to do or know she will do or say at any given situation.

I know there are subtle difference between the females' personalities, but they seem rather ordinary for their alignment type most of the time.

I do think Kira's tough, but not as tough as Sonya. I mean, she ran away from Taven in MKA Konquest without even trying to fight him. I'm sure Sonya fans would agree that Sonya would have still fought him.

OK, Sareena has a unique personality, I guess. If it's a consistent behavior or attitude, it's a personality trait. So if Sareena will always be self-conflicted, then that's a trait, but if she's simply going through a transitional phase, it's not.

I get the idea of Kitana's personality also from her behavior and ways she tends to react to things. And no I don't think she's tough just because she's a leader. A president doesn't have to be tough to speak and get things moving, for example. And just cuz she was a rogue servant of Shao Kahn doesn't mean she's rebellious. She was simply a good-hearted person who didn't want to serve evil like any good person wouldn't.

I don't think Ashrah is overzealous. Like most characters, she has a goal and wants to see it met. Nitara was the same way with her orb search. Mileena the same way with wanting to take Kitana's position. The thing with Ashrah is that she's brainwashed, so that's probably why her enthusiasm appears to be a bit obsessive-compulsive.

Xiahoudun...


I guess this takes us to defining what "tough chick" means. To me, it means a female who's brave, strong, athletic, outspoken, and has intense pride. The term does not cover Sonya's other traits, like loyal, bossy, initiative, and caring. Not all tough chicks are good, or like to lead, or like to stick by their allies, or are grounded, or are even smart.


Determined... I suppose, but I personally don't find anything fierce about Kitana's personality, so I don't think her determination is that intense like others'. Only her fighting skills appear to be fierce, imo.

Steadfast.... not according to MKU where she was disheartened.

Don't know what you mean by superiority complex.

Hopeful..... Isn't Sonya the one known for never giving up? Kitana might be hopeful but it doesn't appear to be to a prominent degree like her.

Bottles her pain... According to MK: Unchained, she actually cries out her pain. She did appear to do this very intensely in the films, though. I'm also sure warriors like all (or most) kombatants don't cry or express pain whenever they want to.

Calm and reserved... also part of being stiffly formal.

Loving but sometimes cold.... I've never known her to do anything cold aside from kill people in her early days but that was just her job, not truly her own intentions or desire.

On Mileena.... How many evil characters throughout the world aren't psychotic, delusional, jealous and/or greedy? Most of what you're saying for her just describes generic evil characters. Just look at your signature. She does appear to have some self-loathing issues however. There's one unique trait she hasn't, which isn't even a prominent one and is rarely shown or addessed. I still consider her to have a generic evil female personality aside from that small self-loathing problem.


Also appears like a generic evil personality to me. Again, your sig. I don't see how she tries to make herself appear innocent, though.

I know actions show personalities, but I think Sub7th was speaking too much about story quality characters have rather than personality quality.

No not all characters have to be in-your-face to have great personalities. Jade isn't that way and I think she has a great personality. And since you asked, I think her traits aside from being loyal and determined are that she's also stealthy/evasive, tough (in a more controlled way, not aggressive), athletic (she runs around and gets into fights a lot), and patriotic (which is combined with pride I think).

These are not traits commonly found in many kombatants, especially the signature stealth/evasiveness trait and the patriotism or pride. Also I think she and Sonya are the only good females who have passions (toughness, determination, loyalty). All the rest seem to have plain goody-goody personalities without any prominent passions or trademark traits they seem they would die without or be ruined without other than their alignment.

Queve....



I was only talking about her personality. As a whole character, I think Kitana can be fun sometimes and she certainly has unique qualities, just not when it comes to her personality. That I cannot help but find boring, ordinary, and typical. It's in the personality department where I feel Sonya excels way passed Kitana and most other characters.

To queve: I didn't notice that, sorry. Now going into your response:

No, the "most part" was not saying that Sonya sucks. I had stated more than once that I don't hate or dislike Sonya. I just think that the character herself is fairly mediocre overall. I would grow to appreciate her if she actually improved.

Sonya may be tough, but so are Jade, Kitana, Kira, and others. Maybe what some see with Sonya's toughness is her being in the Special Forces and having a brash, aggressive attitude.

When you talk about her struggle against the criminal organizations, the problem here is that I can mainly say that with the likes of the Black Dragon and the Tekunin since the Red Dragon got screwed over in MKD. Kitana has her struggles as well. She has an entire realm that she needs to protect. Of course liking a character is a subjective thing. At the end of the day, we're all a little biased here.

To QS(TB): When you say that you get her personality from her behavior and what she'll do in a situation, how do you determine that?

I think you're making an understatement when you say that there are subtle differences amongst the females' personalities.

About Sareena, her conflict is one of her great obstacles as a character.

When you say that you get the idea of Kitana's personality from her behavior and the way she reacts to things, where do you draw the information from?

I do think Ashrah is overzealous, because she seems kind of obsessed with wanting to slay evil left and right. We don't know if Ashrah is really brainwashed or not.

"Determined... I suppose, but I personally don't find anything fierce about Kitana's personality, so I don't think her determination is that intense like others'. Only her fighting skills appear to be fierce, imo."
Deadly Alliance, when she was insistent on finishing off Shao Kahn and his forces quickly. She hated the stalemate and wanted Kahn dead. That denotes a fierceness in her determination.


"Don't know what you mean by superiority complex."
A superiority complex is when one overcompensates when they, for one reason or another, believe they are the only ones who should be doing something. Kitana shows signs of this, especially in Deadly Alliance.


"Steadfast.... not according to MKU where she was disheartened."
Kitana is steadfast because in the face of tremendous tragedy and hardship she's persevered. She believed she was Shao Kahn's daughter and that was her life...only to find out it was all a lie. That's a pretty shattering revelation there. When she swore to overthrow Shao Kahn and restore Edenia...what were her odds at the time? Who was there to help her, at the time? She made that choice alone. Despite the sudden invasion of Shinnok almost immeditatly after Edenia was freed from Outworld, she quickly joined the joined the fight once it was over. Despite the frustration of constant battle and the loss of both Goro and Liu Kang, she immediatly joined Kung Lao to fight the Deadly Alliance.

Now yes, recently like in Unchained, Kitana is showing signs of being disheartened. NOW...after everything she's gone through and endured, it's starting to get to her and she's beginning to show cracks. That's character development and actually further proves Kitana's personality. As strong and capable as she is, even she has her limitations.


Bottles her pain... According to MK: Unchained, she actually cries out her pain.
Once again, her insistence in fighting through Deadly Alliance, despite obviously being in emotional pain at the time. And again, Unchained shows that it's beginning to take it's toll on her.

And few, if any, of the other heroes have shown this attribute. Bottling pain does not mean "Keeps fighting despite emotional troubles." It means pressing on as though it doesn't hurt as bad as it really does.


"Hopeful..... Isn't Sonya the one known for never giving up? Kitana might be hopeful but it doesn't appear to be to a prominent degree like her."
When has Sonya shown signs of hopefulness?
Kitana is hopeful because she takes on what would appear, to anyone else, be a lost cause. Again, her decision to restore Edenia, even though at the time, that seemed all but impossible. Her belief that Mileena can somehow be reformed.


"Calm and reserved... also part of being stiffly formal."
To you maybe...but I don't see what's automatically stiffly formal about having a calm and collected personality. Is Sub-Zero stiffly formal because he is calm and reserved?


"Loving but sometimes cold.... I've never known her to do anything cold aside from kill people in her early days but that was just her job, not truly her own intentions or desire."
Look at her/Mileena's MK Gold ending. She gets pretty vicious with Mileena there. How do we know Kitana's life as an assassin was merely a job for her? As far as she knew, she was defending her father and homeland against usurpers and enemies. And even if she did see it as just her duty, that's a very cold personality. To kill people just because it's a job.


Now before you say, any other heroic character can shows signs of some of those things....first look at who those other heroic characters are. Liu Kang. Johnny Cage. Kai. Nightwolf. Stryker. Fujin. Not exactly the most developed cast of characters there. The problem isn't that Kitana has no personality or no development...it's that the other heroes have very broad personalities if any.


"On Mileena.... How many evil characters throughout the world aren't psychotic, delusional, jealous and/or greedy? Most of what you're saying for her just describes generic evil characters. Just look at your signature."
Okay first of all, remind me what we're discussing here. You're defending Sonya, despite she being the typical "tough chick" but then put down Mileena and Kitana for being, what you consider, "typical."

I thought we were discussing what aspects of Mileena's personality seperate her from the rest of the MK characters? With the exception of Drahmin, maybe Frost, and Reptile when he devolved, none show signs of delusional psychosis. Jealousy does not motivate Shao Kahn, Kira, Quan Chi, Tanya, Mavado, etc.
It's Mileena's motivation and reasons for wanting what she does that truly sets her apart from other villains.

And I think you don't know the Joker as well as you think you do. The Joker's villainy stems mainly from his nihilism. The only MK villain to show signs of that, so far, has been Quan Chi. There's very little of the Joker in Tanya.


I don't see how Tanya tries to make herself appear innocent, though."
Look at her Deception bios. She describes the events that happen as though nothing is her fault and tries to make herself appear to be the victim.


Jade isn't that way and I think she has a great personality. And since you asked, I think her traits aside from being loyal and determined are that she's also stealthy/evasive, tough (in a more controlled way, not aggressive), athletic (she runs around and gets into fights a lot), and patriotic (which is combined with pride I think).
Being stealthy isn't a personality trait. It's a skill. Running around and getting into fights does not make one athletic. Being athletic is when someone seeks out physical activity and takes pleasure in it. I can buy Sonya being considered athletic...but when has Jade ever shown to embrace her lifestyle as anything more than simply her duty as a soldier? And Jade's no more patriotic than Nitara. Nitara shows tremendous pride in her being a Vampire, even to the point where she looks down upon other species.

I have to balk at your claim that Jade has more personality than most of the other female characters. She's portrayed as a regular, reliable soldier. She's a Wedge-type character.


I think it's important to define our terms here. You keep saying you think Kitana and other characters' personalities are typical and ordinary....but defend Sonya, who's personality is typical and ordinary.

I think the more accurate thing to say is, while Sonya may be the typical "tough chick," you find that personality more appealing and likable. Fair enough. I don't. As said, Sonya never interested me because she's just another dime-a-dozen "tough chick" I can find in dozens of other comics, video games, & moves. Kitana, on the other, hand I find to be rather noteworthy due to the many sides of her...flaws & all.

It's not that Kitana or the other female characters are typical...or at least, any more typical than Sonya......you just don't find them appealing.

To Subby7th:

No, the "most part" was not saying that Sonya sucks. I had stated more than once that I don't hate or dislike Sonya.

I know, I was referring to the most part of the other post.

Kitana has her struggles as well. She has an entire realm that she needs to protect. Of course liking a character is a subjective thing. At the end of the day, we're all a little biased here.

But my reply had nothing to do with Kitana. You asked me about Sonya, and I replied about Sonya.

?

Btw, what do you mean by this: "When you talk about her struggle against the criminal organizations, the problem here is that I can mainly say that with the likes of the Black Dragon and the Tekunin since the Red Dragon got screwed over in MKD." Forgive my ignorance, lol, but I didnt understand what you were saying in that part. Sounds incomplete (some word missing?).

To QS(TB): When you say that you get her personality from her behavior and what she'll do in a situation, how do you determine that?

Sometimes, a killer picture is worth then a thousand words, even endings (canon or not). But since we can all agree that we can all be very diverse and subjective, if you want to get more technical, just take Konquest as an excellent example. QS(Tb) pretty much answered you that with the Kira example:



No one even needs to be a fan of Sonya in order to agree with that. Just picture the blond running away: Not Sonya. And whatever reasons makes us assimilate/think that, shows the fact that her tough personality trait, impulsive or not, makes her stand out.

I do think Ashrah is overzealous, because she seems kind of obsessed with wanting to slay evil left and right. We don't know if Ashrah is really brainwashed or not.

Thanks to Nitara, her entire bio (alongside Nitara’s) practically screams that Ashrah is indeed brainwashed and confused without even knowing it. Though we can all debate about it, its quite clear that this was their intention. The sword story wouldn’t be just thrown in to be unused and latter say it was not the Datusha sword after all, specially because they made a big deal about it and all the knowledge that was given to us about it coincides with Ashrahs recent madness. After all, they released one after the other to “clarify” some twists.

To Xia:

When has Sonya shown signs of hopefulness?
Kitana is hopeful because she takes on what would appear, to anyone else, be a lost cause. Again, her decision to restore Edenia, even though at the time, that seemed all but impossible. Her belief that Mileena can somehow be reformed.

Direct information comes from MKDA were she is clearly shown extremely decided and assured that she will rescue her missing agents, who she also views as friends, and do anything it takes to accomplish that goal. That’s a big trait of hope and faith right there. Though rarely talked about, her Mk1 decision to fight for her many partners life’s would also say that she obviously would do anything to rescue them, in the hope to see them save from harm. A very obvious lost cause considering she just saw for the first time in her life a four armed monster among other things, yet, she had the hope.

I think it's important to define our terms here. You keep saying you think Kitana and other characters' personalities are typical and ordinary....but defend Sonya, who's personality is typical and ordinary. I think the more accurate thing to say is, while Sonya may be the typical "tough chick," you find that personality more appealing and likable.

Wasn’t she referring to her overall personal view of the females *inside MK*? She clearly said Sonyas personality isn’t typical or ordinary inside Mk, but she views the essence of some others the other way around, but inside mk.

Just asking. 0_0 Thats what I understood anyways.

As said, Sonya never interested me because she's just another dime-a-dozen "tough chick" I can find in dozens of other comics, video games, & moves. Kitana, on the other, hand I find to be rather noteworthy due to the many sides of her...flaws & all.

Its pretty much common knowledge that no character these days represent any super form of originality or distinction when compared to anything you can think of inside fantasy, reality, etc.

Sonya is just another “dime a dozen tough chick” as much as Kitana is just another of too many warrior princess constantly trying to safe her world, as much as Mileena is another jealous psychotic vixen trying to rule a world, as much as Tanya is another deceptive villain waiting for her right moment, as much as Sareena is just another conflicted “hybrid” searching for salvation, as much as Jade is the loyal powerful sidekick, as much as Ashrah is another deceived potentially noble warrior trying to do the right thing, as much as Li Mei is another potentially corrupted female in inner struggle, as much as Sindel is just another mother and noble queen with problems, etc.

My point is, you can also find dozen of Kitana’s, Sindel’s, Mileena’s and Sareena’s, etc. in other comics, video games, & movies.

To sexy QueenSindel(TheBitch)

I see what you mean in your response and I agree. Now, I'm quite confused with just one bit of your recent posts: You said about Mileena:

“She does appear to have some self-loathing issues however.”

If I'm not mistaken, Mileena has proven that she doesn’t hate herself...at all. Twice: in Deception and Armageddon. In both games Mileena is pretty much convinced that she is beautiful and adores herself and her characteristics. Look at her reactions towards Shujinko and Taven in Konquest.

She looks very happy. And that’s actually awesome. Though I agree it would rock to see some self-loathing issues with this bith, I have to say that the fact that she has convinced herself that she is actually beautiful despite everything else, makes her even more amazing.

Who keeps saying she hates herself? Though it could had been implied in her classic bios, there are no direct/clear hints of her hating herslef. Being sad about being "the clone" they dont pay much attention to, yes. But being sad about it hasnt shown as she hates herself for it. On the contrary, we have only seen her way too happy about her horrible creation.

Wasn’t she referring to her overall personal view of the females *inside MK*? She clearly said Sonyas personality isn’t typical or ordinary inside Mk, but she views the essence of some others the other way around, but inside mk.

Just asking. 0_0 Thats what I understood anyways.
That's what throws me here. One mintue we're saying it's okay for Sonya to simply be the tough chick within Mortal Kombat because that sets her apart from the other MK females....yet then derides Mileena and Tanya for being no different than "any other typical villain."

I think we should clarify whether we're discussing within the context of Mortal Kombat or overall.


Its pretty much common knowledge that no character these days represent any super form of originality or distinction when compared to anything you can think of inside fantasy, reality, etc.

Sonya is just another “dime a dozen tough chick” as much as Kitana is just another of too many warrior princess constantly trying to safe her world, as much as Mileena is another jealous psychotic vixen trying to rule a world, as much as Tanya is another deceptive villain waiting for her right moment, as much as Sareena is just another conflicted “hybrid” searching for salvation, as much as Jade is the loyal powerful sidekick, as much as Ashrah is another deceived potentially noble warrior trying to do the right thing, as much as Li Mei is another potentially corrupted female in inner struggle, as much as Sindel is just another mother and noble queen with problems, etc.
See there I have to disagree to an extent. It is true that at this point pretty much everything is based or inspired by something else. But the importance is presentation within context.

Here is where I would argue the superiority of Mileena and Kitana over Sonya. While there are plenty of the types of characters Kitana/Mileena are...I believe their presentation within the context of Mortal Kombat sets them apart and...while I wouldn't go so far as to say "original" because that's a very subjective term....make them memorable and noteworthy. This is where I think Sonya falters.


If I'm not mistaken, Mileena has proven that she doesn’t hate herself...at all. Twice: in Deception and Armageddon. In both games Mileena is pretty much convinced that she is beautiful and adores herself and her characteristics.
But then look at her reaction in her MK Gold ending when Kitana calls her an abominable clone with no place in the world. Consider Mileena's insane jealousy of Kitana stems from the fact that's she's overlooked on account of her face. Also consider she constantly wears a mask to hide her face and wears overly slutty clothes to draw attention away from it. Her seemingly seductive attitude could simply be a cover.


And a note about Ashrah being deceived....how do we know Nitara is telling the truth? Or that she's right? Remember, the bios is written from her perspective. It's entirely possible it's simply a bias perspective and the Kriss hasn't really possessed Ashrah.

SubZero7th....

I gather their personality from wherever I've seen them: the games, the bios, the konquests, the movies, and the cartoon.

In all these adaptions, I find that Sonya can have many faces that range from tough and passionate to brisk and humorous while Kitana always retains a tightly formal personality with some romantic sides. As for the evil females they usually are just the "evil females" with different goals, backgrounds, conflicts, etc. but with overall the same nasty, cruel, cunning, and selfish behaviors. None of their personalities seem very distinct except for a few exceptions here and there.

And, some females have certain traits, like Sindel being extensively wise, but how conspicuous are such traits? In other words, it's not effective to argue that some females have "this" and "that" over Sonya when their distinctive traits don't even stand out.

Queve....

I think there's hints to Mileena's self-loathing in MK: Gold. In her ending, Kitana tells her she has no right to the throne because she's just a creature of sorcery and then Mileena falls to her knees saying "You are right, Kitana" in a sad, guilty tone.

Cuz of this scene (there are probably other references we can find) I think Mileena could be seriously hurt by someone who degrades her or makes fun of her simply because she's not a rule human. It seems she hates being a clone and can feel unworthy or inferior because of it.

Maybe self-loathing isn't the right term but there's definitely something like that going on with her.

Xiahoudun....

I'm talking about the characters in MK.

My point to Warlady, because she said Sonya was a bad role model due to her lack of accomplishments, was that despite not defeating her enemies, saving realms, or whatever, her personality is still far more inspiring and exciting than any other female kombatant and that's a big part of why she's a quality female character regardless if she's been elaborately developed or not.

That's where I started talking about the personalities cuz I think people who dub her as stale and thus mediocre and unnecessary seriously ignore and underrate her brilliant and outstanding personality.

Fine. Kitana can be strongly determined.

How do you really know that she's steadfast rather than insensitive though? Maybe that's why her huge problems don't appear to hurt her often. It doesn't necessarily mean she bottles her pain and is steadfast. She's probably just stoic due to her strictly formal personality.

In fact, that's what I think her apathetic reactions to heartbreaking situations and such is about. She's caring but not very sensitive the way Sonya or even Mileena are.

Also, how do you know she didn't break down and feel a bit lost when she found out Kahn's world wasn't her true life? The writers don't stop to tell us about each time the characters cry, whine, or feel depressed over something. Her steadfast reaction to that is just your assumption.

Anyway, by point here, since it seems this is swerving, is that Sonya's personality is greatly more inspiring and eminent than any other females, and I believe that's a big part of what makes her a great character despite all the staleness and lack of development lots of people complain about.

Also, Mileena doesn't wear slutty outfits to draw attention away from her face. Where has that been stated? Again, that's just what you like to think, but it just so happens she wears those outfits because Boon and the team are pervs who like catering to male homones. If she were the only female to wear such costumes, then you might have a point, but when even the mature, formal, and serious females wear those outfits, it's obvious that Mileena has no special reason for dressing that way.

And also, in Deception, it was made clear that Jade frequently runs around a lot and fights a lot. If that's not a sign that she's athletically driven (physically active and strong), then why would she remain in that role where it has to be exercised so frequently? Wouldn't she get another job or something?

I also used the word evasive to describe her as an alternative to stealthy. She's highly evasive. Shown clearly in Deception.

And Warlady, I still think that "tough chicks" easily make good role models generally, but there are also females like Erin Brockovich who aren't those "tough chick" type of characters or people but are still inspiring for their intelligence and dynamism.

People have to have superior qualities (strength, intelligence, attractiveness, bravery, or other stuff) to be inspiring role models.

"How do you really know that she's steadfast rather than insensitive though? Maybe that's why her huge problems don't appear to hurt her often. It doesn't necessarily mean she bottles her pain and is steadfast. She's probably just stoic due to her strictly formal personality."

Then why is she breaking down now, as pointed out in Unchained? Why does MK:DA Konquest suggest the stress is getting to her? Obviously she has been feeling and has been affected by the tragedies if they're now wearing her down.


"Also, how do you know she didn't break down and feel a bit lost when she found out Kahn's world wasn't her true life? The writers don't stop to tell us about each time the characters cry, whine, or feel depressed over something. Her steadfast reaction to that is just your assumption."

Actually, I think she did at first break down and feel lost when she found out the truth about her past. I do think she there was period of denial and hesitation. In the Kitana fan fic I wrote, I devoted almost two whole chapters to Kitana feeling lost and broken by finding out the truth. But I believe the fact that she eventually got over that and resolved to overthrow Kahn and restore Edenia is proof of her being steadfast...among other examples.


And also, in Deception, it was made clear that Jade frequently runs around a lot and fights a lot. If that's not a sign that she's athletically driven (physically active and strong), then why would she remain in that role where it has to be exercised so frequently? Wouldn't she get another job or something?"
Because she's loyal?


"She's highly evasive. Shown clearly in Deception."
That's still not a personality trait. That's a skill.
Or if you mean evasive in the sense that she hides her feelings from other people and never lets anyone in......where is this shown in Deception?

To Xia:

That's what throws me here. One minutue we're saying it's okay for Sonya to simply be the tough chick within Mortal Kombat because that sets her apart from the other MK females....yet then derides Mileena and Tanya for being no different than "any other typical villain." I think we should clarify whether we're discussing within the context of Mortal Kombat or overall.

I understood it as an example, because it sounds like her point is the characters within Mk, at least that’s what I understand. And her personal reasons are quite clear though that doesn’t mean you and I have to agree, but I do think she is right in good extent, but not entirely. I absolutely adore the craziness of Mileena, and Tanyas cowardly behavior, but I can see why she says these two along with some others she mentioned fail and seem to be served flat in **her** plate because of their shared traits which makes them sort of less memorable (though it is not my case with lovely Mileena). Just as an example: deceivers, manipulators, liars, power-hungry, etc. As I also understand her view with the Nitara-Kitana-Sindel part(..edit- nevermind, lol, I still dont remember), I think she has a point.

Innocent Tanya

BTW, I just re-read Tanyas MKD biographies, and I dont really see a hint of trying to sound like a victim. If anything, she sounds like she is making fun of the events, and saying her attitude is acceptable. Cool.

See there I have to disagree to an extent. It is true that at this point pretty much everything is based or inspired by something else. But the importance is presentation within context. Here is where I would argue the superiority of Mileena and Kitana over Sonya. While there are plenty of the types of characters Kitana/Mileena are...I believe their presentation within the context of Mortal Kombat sets them apart and...while I wouldn't go so far as to say "original" because that's a very subjective term....make them memorable and noteworthy. This is where I think Sonya falters.

I disagree. That presentation of which you speak is no doubt great and it does set them apart, but Sonya’s route is so different that its not correct to say she falters, because, despite her flaws, she stands out quite firmly in her end and place, her part sets her apart from the other two, and in a good way.

Its like saying: Havik/Hotaru (+) and Scorpion (-). While I truly wickedly adore the first two and don’t care about Scorpion at all, that doesn’t mean Scorpion doesnt set himself apart firmly in his end of the road, which isn’t even on the path of the other two.

But then look at her reaction in her MK Gold ending when Kitana calls her an abominable clone with no place in the world. Consider Mileena's insane jealousy of Kitana stems from the fact that's she's overlooked on account of her face. Also consider she constantly wears a mask to hide her face and wears overly slutty clothes to draw attention away from it. Her seemingly seductive attitude could simply be a cover.

Absolutely not. I have to disagree with all this. I can view it in two ways:

1.- To begin with, Mileena’s reaction in that video seems to be extremely fake, by that I mean, she is just as “wild” to hear her sister call her an abominable clone as she is just as “nice” to tell her that “she is right”. It all looks like a very nice act in order to deceive and beat Kitana.

2.- But also, I do find it very possible that Kitana’s words really got to her, and I mean REALLY got to her like you imply, but not in a way to assume she “hates-herself”. If anything, she is only extremely sad, angry and frustrated by the fact that it is her who is the clone and not Kitana, that its Kitana the true ruler of Edenia and not her because she is the clone, that’s she was born of sorcery, and therefore she isn’t Kitana’s sister which makes her have no right over that world. Accepting that cant be nice considering she has no royal status and place in the Kingdom.

She hates the fact she isnt the real one, but she dosnt feel hate for being what she is.

I think it tarnishes her character to think that her insane jealousy is based on the fact that she has been overlooked just because of her face. No way! I would have said this was very possible if it hadn’t been for the recent events of MKD and MKA, were she portrays a very strong person with high self-esteem, but after those 2 games, it doesn’t suit her now. She is much better like this. Very confident and happy to be ugly.

But what I honestly always thought, was that her jealousy had more to do with the fact that she is not the real one, the true heir, which makes her second in everything else.

The masks part makes no sense:

1.- Considering that a LOT of characters from Kitana herself to Sub-Zero to Ermac to Mavado wear one, its not really a big deal and its no longer an original thing for anyone anymore (though her mask being changed to a veil was one of the best things ever!).

2.- She obviously *needs* to hide her features. She is, after all, posing as the princess. She needs to fool thousands. And I assume that if she wants to get some info or trick someone (lure them to their death maybe?) she better keep the mask on in order to gain their trust and not scare them with her real self. And as for the classics, none of the female girls took their mask out till MkGold, and its my guess that since the team always made Mileena have her trademark fatality (take out her “mask/veil”), they never even tried to get rid of the mask for an alternate because there would be no different animation or sense of “wow” when seeing her use her sharp teeth. In a way, Mileena hiding her features has become a known trademark of her, when “fatality” comes, it gives you a better impression then it would if she were just fighting without it. (Though I still wish for an alternate of Mileena with no veil, but I guess it was too difficult just to give her a new animation because she was without the veil).

As for the slutty clothes, come on!, almost all the chicks in MK fight in slutty swimming suits, so, I wouldn’t call it a way to draw attention away from her mouth. Kitanas, Sindel, Sareenas, Nitara’s, Li Mei’s, etc. slutty wardrobe choices aren’t meant to be there to distract. They are there because that’s how they dress. The fact that Mileena wears even more provocative clothes is just a nod to the awesome “concept” she represents: “Beauty is never what it seems” or “There's more then what meets the eye” or whatever you want to call it along those lines.

It’s the terribly disgusting ugly psycho girl hiding behind an incredible goddess like illusion.

Exactly the same thing happens with Sheeva, another bizarre and disgusting looking female. While she doesn’t hide behind a veil, she wears even more slutty costumes then Mileena (Mk3 costume). The same general idea applies to most of these type of ugly-sexy girls.

BUT I do agree with your last part: “Her seemingly seductive attitude could simply be a cover”.

This is most definitely probable and true. **But** I see it as a cover to hide her ugly self because she has to, **not** because she is ashamed of herself.

Either way, I honestly do find interesting the idea of Mileena hating herself for being ugly, but I find the idea of her loving her ugly-self even more amazing and wicked, which makes her more deep. More depth. Less typical, and a lot less like a cliché. It makes her unique.

And a note about Ashrah being deceived....how do we know Nitara is telling the truth? Or that she's right? Remember, the bios is written from her perspective. It's entirely possible it's simply a bias perspective and the Kriss hasn't really possessed Ashrah.

Like I said, we can speculate, but out of the two theories, yours sounds less likely. Its pretty much obvious that the sword is, in fact, what Nitara says it is, and that in whatever way, its deceiving Ashrah. I know it would be nice to think “oh! But they wanted to make it seem obvious when in fact, it’s not!”, but considering the way the storyline has worked since day 1, that’s very unlikely. The way these two bios were presented in such order makes me be certain that that’s the way this was supposed to be intended.

The ONLY possible thing that is true, is that it could be a bias perspective, but not in the way you imply it. The fact that the Kriss is deceiving Ashrah doesn’t make it a bad sword like Nitara assures. Nitara has the right to think so, considering it wants to kill her entire race, but vampires are no saints. So she is biased. So the sword could in fact be something good playing its game with the help of a puppet, anyone would serve.

To QS(tb)

In all these adaptions, I find that Sonya can have many faces that range from tough and passionate to brisk and humorous while Kitana always retains a tightly formal personality with some romantic sides. As for the evil females they usually are just the "evil females" with different goals, backgrounds, conflicts, etc. but with overall the same nasty, cruel, cunning, and selfish behaviors. None of their personalities seem very distinct except for a few exceptions here and there. And, some females have certain traits, like Sindel being extensively wise, but how conspicuous are such traits? In other words, it's not effective to argue that some females have "this" and "that" over Sonya when their distinctive traits don't even stand out.

Very true. Great points.

I think there's hints to Mileena's self-loathing in MK: Gold. In her ending, Kitana tells her she has no right to the throne because she's just a creature of sorcery and then Mileena falls to her knees saying "You are right, Kitana" in a sad, guilty tone. Cuz of this scene (there are probably other references we can find) I think Mileena could be seriously hurt by someone who degrades her or makes fun of her simply because she's not a rule human. It seems she hates being a clone and can feel unworthy or inferior because of it.

Seriously doubt it. Let me copy what I wrote to Xia:

Absolutely not. I have to disagree with all this. I can view it in two ways:

1.- To begin with, Mileena’s reaction in that video seems to be extremely fake, by that I mean, she is just as “wild” to hear her sister call her an abominable clone as she is just as “nice” to tell her that “she is right”. It all looks like a very nice act in order to deceive and beat Kitana.

2.- But also, I do find it very possible that Kitana’s words really got to her, and I mean REALLY got to her like you imply, but not in a way to assume she “hates-herself”. If anything, she is only extremely sad, angry and frustrated by the fact that it is her who is the clone and not Kitana, that its Kitana the true ruler of Edenia and not her because she is the clone, that’s she was born of sorcery, and therefore she isn’t Kitana’s sister which makes her have no right over that world. Accepting that cant be nice considering she has no royal status and place in the Kingdom.

She hates the fact she isnt the real one, but she dosnt feel hate for being what she is.

I think it tarnishes her character to think that her insane jealousy is based on the fact that she has been overlooked just because of her face. No way! I would have said this was very possible if it hadn’t been for the recent events of MKD and MKA, were she portrays a very strong person with high self-esteem, but after those 2 games, it doesn’t suit her now. She is much better like this. Very confident and happy to be ugly.

But what I honestly always thought, was that her jealousy had more to do with the fact that she is not the real one, the true heir, which makes her second in everything else.

Maybe self-loathing isn't the right term but there's definitely something like that going on with her.

I consider the possibility, but self-loathing or hate is definitely not the term to use to someone who prides in being what they are. Could be a cover?. Maybe. Perhaps she grew to accept her unique traits and convinced herself that she is the “fairest of them all”.

I see no self hate in that ending. If anything, its susceptibility to the fact she is a clone that has no right for power, and being made fan of. She can be pride of it, but coming like that can indeed be hurtful. Doesn’t make her hate herself though.


My point to Warlady, because she said Sonya was a bad role model due to her lack of accomplishments, was that despite not defeating her enemies, saving realms, or whatever, her personality is still far more inspiring and exciting than any other female kombatant and that's a big part of why she's a quality female character regardless if she's been elaborately developed or not. That's where I started talking about the personalities cuz I think people who dub her as stale and thus mediocre and unnecessary seriously ignore and underrate her brilliant and outstanding personality.

Well said. And warlady did fail to see Sonya has been there kicking butt and helping to save realms since the first tournmant and that she has also defeated her enemies.

How do you really know that she's steadfast rather than insensitive though? Maybe that's why her huge problems don't appear to hurt her often. It doesn't necessarily mean she bottles her pain and is steadfast. She's probably just stoic due to her strictly formal personality. In fact, that's what I think her apathetic reactions to heartbreaking situations and such is about. She's caring but not very sensitive the way Sonya or even Mileena are.

That’s true. Btw, wasnt Kitana rude and immature when it came to Bo Rai Cho? She felt disgusted towards the master, maybe this is also what stopped her from truly learning.


Also, Mileena doesn't wear slutty outfits to draw attention away from her face. Where has that been stated? Again, that's just what you like to think, but it just so happens she wears those outfits because Boon and the team are pervs who like catering to male homones. If she were the only female to wear such costumes, then you might have a point, but when even the mature, formal, and serious females wear those outfits, it's obvious that Mileena has no special reason for dressing that way.

Exactly my point to Xia. While I wouldn’t go as far as saying Boon and the crew are all pervs, I do agree that’s simply the way its done because:

1.- In some way its just looks very sexy and even beautiful.
2.- Most females in most videogames, movies, etc etc etc are just like that, specially fighters.

Like I said, Kitana, Li Mei, Sareena and the others also look slutty.

And also, in Deception, it was made clear that Jade frequently runs around a lot and fights a lot. If that's not a sign that she's athletically driven (physically active and strong), then why would she remain in that role where it has to be exercised so frequently? Wouldn't she get another job or something? I also used the word evasive to describe her as an alternative to stealthy. She's highly evasive. Shown clearly in Deception.

Ah, cool. I had forgotten about that.

And Warlady, I still think that "tough chicks" easily make good role models generally, but there are also females like Erin Brockovich who aren't those "tough chick" type of characters or people but are still inspiring for their intelligence and dynamism. People have to have superior qualities (strength, intelligence, attractiveness, bravery, or other stuff) to be inspiring role models.

Exactly what I told her in my first post. You have awesome Erin and Evita among many others. I too think this type of tough chicks are excellent role models.

To Xia again

Then why is she breaking down now, as pointed out in Unchained? Why does MK:DA Konquest suggest the stress is getting to her? Obviously she has been feeling and has been affected by the tragedies if they're now wearing her down.

Being insensible can also be the kind of cover you talked about, to hide other things. So maybe that could be it. She breaks down because she is human and cant take it. Though it doesn’t really matter anyways.

Actually, I think she did at first break down and feel lost when she found out the truth about her past. I do think she there was period of denial and hesitation. In the Kitana fan fic I wrote, I devoted almost two whole chapters to Kitana feeling lost and broken by finding out the truth. But I believe the fact that she eventually got over that and resolved to overthrow Kahn and restore Edenia is proof of her being steadfast...among other examples.

I too think this is very possible. But like QS(tb) said, its still assumptions.

Or if you mean evasive in the sense that she hides her feelings from other people and never lets anyone in......where is this shown in Deception?

I believe this was shown in MKU. Her inner struggle. But I don’t think it was in deception. But anyway, now that you mention it, it would be amazing to discover that despite their close friendship, Jade could had always felt some sort of resentment towards Kitana. Something that needs to be developed obviously, since there's still no story for that. I just thought about it and I like the idea. She could feel resentment, but that doesn’t mean she would stop loving her and caring for her. Ah kind of “I cant forgive you for this, but that will never an end to our friendship” kind of thing.

"BTW, I just re-read Tanyas MKD biographies, and I dont really see a hint of trying to sound like a victim."
The she way says she just wants to return home and how she describes how she was threatened by Baraka into joining Onaga. Sounded to me like she was trying to make things sound like it wasn't her fault.


"I think it tarnishes her character to think that her insane jealousy is based on the fact that she has been overlooked just because of her face. No way! I would have said this was very possible if it hadn’t been for the recent events of MKD and MKA, were she portrays a very strong person with high self-esteem, but after those 2 games, it doesn’t suit her now. She is much better like this. Very confident and happy to be ugly."
I don't think it tarnishes her at all. Why was she always overlooked? Why didn't she replace Kitana as originally planned? Why was she always considered "second." The answer was right on her face. Reason to be unhappy with her looks right there.

Now, if her face had turned out right, would Shao Kahn have considered her the better one or would she still be treated like shit? Who's to say...but that ambiguity is something that always interested me.

You also seem to be forgetting that Mileena's actions in Deception is a recent development. Mileena did not always want to literally take Kitana's place. She wanted to prove she was better and surpass her. I explained this in the Deception post in my Storyline Analysis thread. It wasn't until Mileena realized that as long as everyone believes she's Kitana she can rule that she accepted her "destiny." Until that moment, what Mileena wanted was to prove her worth as an individual.

But even now, I still don't believe Mileena is happy to be ugly because as long as she is, she's never going to replace Kitana.

And about Mileena's clothes....one of the things I always appreciated about Mileena was she was the only female character who actually had a reason to dress that way.

"Either way, I honestly do find interesting the idea of Mileena hating herself for being ugly, but I find the idea of her loving her ugly-self even more amazing and wicked, which makes her more deep. More depth. Less typical, and a lot less like a cliché. It makes her unique."
Diagree completely. I think her self-loathing is far more interesting. Confliction.


"Being insensitive can also be the kind of cover you talked about, to hide other things. So maybe that could be it. She breaks down because she is human and cant take it. Though it doesn’t really matter anyways."
That's what I said. Kitana bottles her pain...however, even she has her limits.


"I believe this was shown in MKU. Her inner struggle. But I don’t think it was in deception."
Where? Jade's MKU bios were the same as her Deception bios. And at no point are we given indication she's evasive with her feelings. She actually came across as rather straight-forward and direct in her bios.