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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
02/22/2008 06:01 AM (UTC)
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Xiahoudun....

Then why is she breaking down now, as pointed out in Unchained? Why does MK:DA Konquest suggest the stress is getting to her? Obviously she has been feeling and has been affected by the tragedies if they're now wearing her down.

Of all the times she's undergone difficult situations, this one time she actually gets emotional is suppose to prove that she's sensitive? What about all the other times, especially the ones where the problems were more personal?

That's still not a personality trait. That's a skill.

Well, it seems like a trait to me. If someone was to write a story namelessly using kombatants and they describe a female who is tough and brave, everyone will know the writer is talking about Sonya. If the writer then describes a female who is elusive and sneaky, everyone will know the writer is talking about Jade.

I guess I'm thinking her stealth is a personality trait because it involves being calculating and devious. Lets just call it those 2 things then if stealth can only be a skill. She's calculating and devious, and sly and tricky and sneaky.

That's a huge part of her behavior thanks to Deception. I cannot not see that as a trait of some sort.

Because she's loyal?

She can be loyal without doing something she dislikes, you know. She can work for her realm in another way if she doesn't enjoy being athletic all the time. I'm sure Sindel will be nice enough to appoint Jade a different job if she sees that all that athleticism is bothering her, but come on, it most likely isn't.

What is it so hard to believe that Jade is athletic anyway? She's an obvious ass-kicker like Sonya and seems to be physically engaged almost always.

Queve....

but I can see why she says these two along with some others she mentioned fail and seem to be served flat in **her** plate because of their shared traits which makes them sort of less memorable (though it is not my case with lovely Mileena). Just as an example: deceivers, manipulators, liars, power-hungry, etc.

Yeah, those traits all fit them in the same way. Also another trait you forgot to mention is "savage." Kira, Mileena, Tanya, Sheeva, Nitara, even Sareena all tend to have savage aggression, except this is mostly shown in the actual game with all of their growling, raspy voices and that vibe they give off of not being afraid to rip someone apart and eat them hungrily like animals.

They do have some small distinct traits I suppose, but what really seperates them are their different roles, conflicts, and backstories, not their personalities other than a few minor traits, imo. That's how I see it.

Don't think I'm saying that I think they're all the same boring crap. No, I'm also a Mileena fan like you. I also like Frost and Kira a lot and a few others. My point though is that Sonya's personality stands out the most and she's not the only tough chick. Kira and Jade are also tough. Kira just happens to be evil and Jade just happens to be less aggressive cuz she plans before she gets into a fight, unlike Sonya who I think would just charge at someone without thinking it through first - most of the time, anyway.
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XiahouDun84
02/22/2008 12:39 PM (UTC)
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"Of all the times she's undergone difficult situations, this one time she actually gets emotional is suppose to prove that she's sensitive? What about all the other times, especially the ones where the problems were more personal? "
Because she's steadfast, like I said. Until now, she's been able to hold her pain in check. Like a soldier who's been through many hard battles. He/she won't break down at the first sign of trouble, but he/she might eventually either go completely numb or break down. That doesn't mean he/she never felt any emotional pain until that moment...they just kept it in check.

I really don't understand why this is a hard concept.


"Well, it seems like a trait to me. If someone was to write a story namelessly using kombatants and they describe a female who is tough and brave, everyone will know the writer is talking about Sonya. If the writer then describes a female who is elusive and sneaky, everyone will know the writer is talking about Jade.
I guess I'm thinking her stealth is a personality trait because it involves being calculating and devious. Lets just call it those 2 things then if stealth can only be a skill. She's calculating and devious, and sly and tricky and sneaky.
That's a huge part of her behavior thanks to Deception. I cannot not see that as a trait of some sort.
She can be loyal without doing something she dislikes, you know. She can work for her realm in another way if she doesn't enjoy being athletic all the time. I'm sure Sindel will be nice enough to appoint Jade a different job if she sees that all that athleticism is bothering her, but come on, it most likely isn't.
What is it so hard to believe that Jade is athletic anyway? She's an obvious ass-kicker like Sonya and seems to be physically engaged almost always."

Okay, but then I still don't see how Jade's personality stands out. I began this questioning because you claimed Sonya and Jade were the only female characters with any true personality. Even if I accepted Jade being having athletic qualities, I'm still not seeing how what makes her stand out amongst the others.


"I disagree. That presentation of which you speak is no doubt great and it does set them apart, but Sonya’s route is so different that its not correct to say she falters, because, despite her flaws, she stands out quite firmly in her end and place, her part sets her apart from the other two, and in a good way."
How? You said Sonya is no more a typical tough chich than Kitana is a typical warrior princess. I disagree.
Compare Kitana to other known warrior princess characters. Princess Leia......Kitana's not like Leia. Sonya has more in common with Leia than Kitana does. Princess Zelda.....I'll admit, my knowledge of Zelda is limited, but was she raised to be a killer by Gannondorf? Does she share Kitana's foibles and traits? Wonder Woman.....sure there are simularities, but Wonder Woman is far more warm and open than Kitana, who's much more cold and melancoly. I could keep going. The other major archetype Kitana represents is the reformed assassin. And she does have enough variation there to make her stand out. I wouldn't say she's objectively the best of the warrior princess/reformed assassin archetypes, but she is an effective variation of those themes.
I would say the same for Mileena. There are plenty of evil clones and jealous sisters and ugly girls who want to be pretty....but I believe Mileena is an effective enough variation of those themes to make her stand out.

Now Sonya....what makes her stand out from other tough chicks? She stands out within Mortal Kombat because she's the only "tough chick" in that sense....but take her out of Mortal Kombat and I think she falters. Even all the stuff you and QueenSindel say about Sonya's personality and character I still don't see anything.

I do genuinely believe Kitana and Mileena to be among the best examples of Mortal Kombat's capacity for creativity. Sonya.....I don't see it.


"That’s true. Btw, wasnt Kitana rude and immature when it came to Bo Rai Cho? She felt disgusted towards the master, maybe this is also what stopped her from truly learning."
She was put off by his brand of humor. I wouldn't really call that immature....seems more like impatient. Konquest also suggested he enjoyed antagonizing her in paticular due to her royal status. And it is one of the reasons she didn't complete her training.


One last thing I want to add here, just because I feel like throwing my 2 cents on the subject: I don't think Sonya is all that grounded in personality. I have to agree more with Warlady on this one....she comes across as needlessly mean, bitchy, and self-righteous. Nothing wrong with those qualities in a character, but I don't see those as grounded traits. She seems more concerned with showing off how "tough" she is, she doesn't know how to relax and just be a normal human being.
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queve
02/22/2008 03:26 PM (UTC)
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To Xia:

The she way says she just wants to return home and how she describes how she was threatened by Baraka into joining Onaga. Sounded to me like she was trying to make things sound like it wasn't her fault.

Yeah, it is possible. I guess she is playing victim while still making fun of the situation. Cool.

I don't think it tarnishes her at all. Why was she always overlooked? Why didn't she replace Kitana as originally planned? Why was she always considered "second." The answer was right on her face. Reason to be unhappy with her looks right there.

No. She didn’t replace Kitana as she should had because the whole truth was revealed: A clone, not a twin, not a sister. That, and the fact that she was killed. Even Mileena says it in her bio.

Now, if her face had turned out right, would Shao Kahn have considered her the better one or would she still be treated like shit? Who's to say...but that ambiguity is something that always interested me.

But, there are no any indications that she was treated like crap from Kahn and all. I do agree the idea makes her even more lovely, but that is just an assumption based on our ideas of what could had happened to her. No where do we see Mileena lamenting herself for being hated or disliked or even hating Kahn for treating her bad. In MKA, she is only upset he is back to take away her status, no mention of past resentments.

You also seem to be forgetting that Mileena's actions in Deception is a recent development. Mileena did not always want to literally take Kitana's place.

I know, that’s why I explained why in the classics till now she hasn’t taken her mask off. It has nothing to do with being ashamed, and more to do with the way she is designed and her fatality animations, etc.

Until that moment, what Mileena wanted was to prove her worth as an individual.

True, but again, she wasn’t lamenting her ugliness. Maybe she wanted to prove her worth the say she was. Proud of her deformation.

But even now, I still don't believe Mileena is happy to be ugly because as long as she is, she's never going to replace Kitana.

It would definitely make her the happiest woman on Outworld to suddenly see her MKA ending come to life and get the beautiful face she secretly but obviously desires.

Mileena wants the face to fool everyone, that’s true, but I don’t think she wants it to have high self-esteem. Thats 2 very different things. She was very happy in MKD and MKA, and she didn’t need to have Kitanas face to enjoy her power.

And about Mileena's clothes....one of the things I always appreciated about Mileena was she was the only female character who actually had a reason to dress that way.

Yeah, makes sense, that’s something I really like about her too. Would be more special if the rest of the Edenian gals dressed differently though. Say, royal and elegant in one side, and slutty Mileena in the other, but that’s not the case.

Diagree completely. I think her self-loathing is far more interesting. Confliction.

That confliction could firmly keep her stuck with a simple goal and become redundant. I'm not saying its bad, like I said, I like it. And yes, it doesnt need to be redundant.

But having her as an ugly villain who loves herself in such way, that makes her unique. So not typical. No more inner struggles of that kind and self lamenting characters. We already have tons.

Where? Jade's MKU bios were the same as her Deception bios. And at no point are we given indication she's evasive with her feelings. She actually came across as rather straight-forward and direct in her bios.

LOL, I was referring to MK Ultimate (Mk3 era). I guess I'm still the only one who refers to that game as MKU?

How? You said Sonya is no more a typical tough chich than Kitana is a typical warrior princess. I disagree.
Compare Kitana to other known warrior princess characters. Princess Leia......Kitana's not like Leia. Sonya has more in common with Leia than Kitana does. Princess Zelda.....I'll admit, my knowledge of Zelda is limited, but was she raised to be a killer by Gannondorf? Does she share Kitana's foibles and traits? Wonder Woman.....sure there are simularities, but Wonder Woman is far more warm and open than Kitana, who's much more cold and melancoly. I could keep going. The other major archetype Kitana represents is the reformed assassin. And she does have enough variation there to make her stand out. I wouldn't say she's objectively the best of the warrior princess/reformed assassin archetypes, but she is an effective variation of those themes. Now Sonya....what makes her stand out from other tough chicks? She stands out within Mortal Kombat because she's the only "tough chick" in that sense....but take her out of Mortal Kombat and I think she falters. Even all the stuff you and QueenSindel say about Sonya's personality and character I still don't see anything.


I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. She is just another warrior princess who happens to kick ass and fight well, with her own problems and agenda to deal with. If you classify them like that, then Wonderwoman, Leia and P. Zelda are all as un-typical as Kitana. Same thing could be said about the likes of some like Xena, and if I'm not mistaken (I'm a huge fan but forgot her name), one of the awesome girls of TLOTR.

She was put off by his brand of humor. I wouldn't really call that immature....seems more like impatient. Konquest also suggested he enjoyed antagonizing her in paticular due to her royal status. And it is one of the reasons she didn't complete her training.

Impatience maybe, but it also sounds like she isn’t humble, like straight arrogance. That sort of impatience can also be an allusion to arrogance.

One last thing I want to add here, just because I feel like throwing my 2 cents on the subject: I don't think Sonya is all that grounded in personality. I have to agree more with Warlady on this one....she comes across as needlessly mean, bitchy, and self-righteous.

No, she comes of as a tough bitch you better not mess around with. Do no harm and make no silly attempts to piss her off and she is very grounded, friendly and polite (and you are likely to keep your body unbroken). Look at her MKDA Konquest with Kung Lao and Frost for example. That says a big deal about her personality. And btw, Sonya has a stronger “cold aura”, she is very capable of being extremely cold and commanding as well.

She seems more concerned with showing off how "tough" she is, she doesn't know how to relax and just be a normal human being.

No. That's crap.

And from what do you get this idea? Nowhere in any of her bios or story is there even a hint of her caring what other people think about her or wanting to prove herself to the rest. Showing off her toughness? She simply doesn’t care.

She has never felt the necessity to prove she is tough or capable of kicking ass. She doesn’t care because she knows she can, and her allies know that well enough to respect her.

That statement is completely invalid and contradicted with MKDA’s official information, where she is presented as someone completely different from that perspective: when it comes to Kung Lao, and most definitely when it comes to Frost, who was no doubt presented as a very anti-Sonya kind of girl, as the complete opposite.

You had the wise perceptive calmed relaxed tough warrior on one side, and you had the foolish cocky arrogant dying to prove she is worth and tough to everyone on the other.

Your statement applies to Frost, not Sonya.

To QS(tb):

Don't think I'm saying that I think they're all the same boring crap. No, I'm also a Mileena fan like you. I also like Frost and Kira a lot and a few others. My point though is that Sonya's personality stands out the most and she's not the only tough chick. Kira and Jade are also tough. Kira just happens to be evil and Jade just happens to be less aggressive cuz she plans before she gets into a fight, unlike Sonya who I think would just charge at someone without thinking it through first - most of the time, anyway.

Good to know, because Mileena, Frost and Tanya, imo, are truly amazing.



Btw, I just remembered how Warlady criticized Sonya for having to deal with Kano and greatly underrated his potential. This is crap based on bias. Kano is a formidable warrior, and he was the one who defeated Kitanas attempts during MKDA’s war, and was only made to retreat when the Shokan decided to ally themselves with the princess and because he found out about Kahn. Kano is capable, tough and intelligent enough both in battle and as a main leader figure to defeat Kitana as well, does that maker her suck? Does that make Kitana Lame. I dont think so.

Warlady, you also said: A thong is used by strippers and it does not have a different meaning.

Now, thats just plain stupidity. Complete idiotic stupidity. Judge a woman for being a stripper or a whore just for wearing a thong? Whats wrong with you? In what world do you think you are living? Im sorry, but thats very idiotic and offensive.

By your logic, we have many strippers walking around. *rolls eyes*

You also said: reminds me of why I HATED princess Leia from Star Wars: Little Miss Hard Ass gets into trouble and, as a result, other people die. It's the same pattern here: Sonya should have died with her team.

Really? Because if you actually paid attention to the story instead of being biased you would see that the ENTIRE team was hot on the trail of Kanos. Doesn’t mean its Sonyas entire fault. Get your facts straight.

Her (vague and uncertain) backstory should be read, as it seems, as a depressing row of losses

And if having suffered losses makes you a lame character, you can say the same thing for many of the Mk cast. That’s stupid.

When all is over Sonya tries to get Kano again (she could not before with her team, so she will be able now WITHOUT her team: very clever...) and, surprise, she gets punished again. Little poor loser Sonya plays damsel in distress for Jax, and the two supercops lose Kano for the third time

Bullshit. Have you even read the canon story of Mk2’s comic book? Get your facts straight before making silly assumptions.

It's curious how Earth's female champion never defeated anybody with a face and a name but Kano in MK 3

Whats your point? Did she have to defeat the entire cast to be acceptable to your eyes? I recall many great characters not even killing or fighting 1 main adversary with a face and name, and just because they didn’t, that doesn’t make then unworthy or lame.

There is the OIA where, anyway, Jax is featured more prominently than her, which makes sense as he outranks her.

Jax only just started to get away from Sonyas shadow and be featured individually, not more prominently, 2 very different things. He started baby steps in MKDA and got it very well in MKU and MKA. And the way we have seen it, Sonya seems to be in command of most stuff and the iconic leader representation of the entire SF plot, like it or not, and the team views her like this as well.

at least, Kung Lao and Kitana got the "hero" death at the hands of the big evil, while Sonya and her pals were killed by nameless, faceless foes like expendable cannon fodder.

That’s a lame attempt to diminish Sonyas and the others potential. Even if she had faced Shang tsung or Quan Chi, you would still be saying biased bullshit about it and praising Kitana and Kung Lao. That's very lame.

Especially considering that she has not rescued anybody so far.

So what? Does a character need to rescue someone in order to be awesome? And, again, learn your mk and get your facts straight. She rescued Cyrax with Jax’s aid.

Work for Shao Kahn, same category=same outfit and hairdo.

That’s biased crap.

And the palette swap is dead and buried by now. All new characters were born with their own design.
Sonya, on the other hand, wears typically a top and pants...Mmm... Could be my sister. Her outfits change too often, but they stay pretty generic, without even the colour thing going for them. In the end, the convey nothing but, again, the generic tough chick idea.


So what in the world are you trying to say? Your entire post contradicts itself in severe ways. You are criticizing Sonya for dressing typically while other characters change and get new designs, yet you then bitch about her getting new looks too often.

That you don’t like her looks is acceptable, but saying that changing too often is bad is were you are wrong. The majority would agree that its actually time to see some of the more redundant boring concepts changed and improved. Thank God, Sonya has been lucky enough to get different new fresh looks in all her games, making her feel fresh and worked on, instead of just using the same tiring generic swimsuit that characters like Kitana have, yet, you don’t complain about her having generic typical attributes.

VERDICT

Ms Blade,

It is official. You suck


I'm sorry to blow up your delusion bubble, but your word is not law.
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XiahouDun84
02/22/2008 07:04 PM (UTC)
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"I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. She is just another warrior princess who happens to kick ass and fight well, with her own problems and agenda to deal with. If you classify them like that, then Wonderwoman, Leia and P. Zelda are all as un-typical as Kitana. Same thing could be said about the likes of some like Xena, and if I'm not mistaken (I'm a huge fan but forgot her name), one of the awesome girls of TLOTR."
Fair enough, but I just want to say I don't consider Leia, Wonder Woman, etc. to be "typcial" warrior princesses. I only used them as examples because they're well known.


"She has never felt the necessity to prove she is tough or capable of kicking ass. She doesn’t care because she knows she can, and her allies know that well enough to respect her.
That statement is completely invalid and contradicted with MKDA’s official information, where she is presented as someone completely different from that perspective: when it comes to Kung Lao, and most definitely when it comes to Frost, who was no doubt presented as a very anti-Sonya kind of girl, as the complete opposite."

How do you know she doesn't care? I get that impression of her due to her attittude when trusting someone. Frost pissed her off, this is true....but Kung Lao got special treatment because he's already in the Sonya Blade Trust Club. Now look at how she treats Taven in Armageddon. He was minding his own business, going on his quest, when Sonya comes along barking about her AUTHORITY.

Sure, once you get to know Sonya, she'll go to any mile for you...but until then, you're just a dirt clod in her way.
Thats just how I see her.
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queve
02/23/2008 02:29 AM (UTC)
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“I HAVE FULL AUTHORITY!”: Best-line-ever. No doubt one of the most memorable moments of Konquest. I still remember the many posts dedicated to this awesome statement. I love it! Sonya rocked. Lol, now:

How do you know she doesn't care? I get that impression of her due to her attittude when trusting someone. Frost pissed her off, this is true....but Kung Lao got special treatment because he's already in the Sonya Blade Trust Club. Now look at how she treats Taven in Armageddon. He was minding his own business, going on his quest, when Sonya comes along barking about her AUTHORITY.

Easy! Sonya had more then a thousand reasons to bark about Authority. And being on such kind and friendly terms with Kung Lao kind of shows that she wasnt the bitch she was to Taven when she met the unknown warrior. There was respect, and she didnt feel anything like she did with Frost.

Again, Konquest pretty much showed her as the wise and rather cold one in contrast to Frost.

And that doesn’t make sense. Just because her attitude towards someone she has a hard time to trust is direct and explicit, doesn’t mean it’s a cry to the heavens for attention or to show off. There's just no indication that she needs attention. This at least doesn’t apply to the Sonya we have seen in the games. We have no proof at all to support this impression, but we do have proof that show that that’s just the way Sonya is, the kind of person who just tells you in your face what she is thinking (which I will mention below in the Taven part). Unless we suddenly get some canon info that her “toughness is just a desperate act to get some attention and to show off”, nothing contradicts the already established personality as shown in the games.

Your Taven example is bad because it proves that your impression is wrong: Its more then clear that she doesn’t give a damn about what he is thinking or what is going on in his head about her personality. She doesn’t care...at all. She is not worried to show off any toughness, she IS being tough because that’s just the way she is, she is focused on getting some answers and getting them “NOW”, that’s it.

She didn’t stop to show off about her huge power or skills when defeating the Ice Monster so easily and indifferently. She went to the point. She was completely indifferent and cold. If your statement is correct, this would had been the perfect moment to hear her say something in allusion to this.

She went on to business (not entirely the way she should had of course) and barked to the guy for his involvement with Sektor. She should had tried to control her temper and listen more openly to Taven, but given the circumstances, she pretty much had no positive reason to buy his words. All odds were against him.

Take into account that her best friend was missing and in potential mortal danger as well as the rest of her team, that the Tekunin’s leader was also nowhere to be seen, and that after days of following she finally managed to find Taven, the only connection she had to discover about the Tekunins and Jax’s location, a potential criminal. This was enough to feed her explosive charisma with even more poison and made her even more dangerous. She was obviously pissed off at Taven’s “lack of cooperation” and all his “excuses”. There was more then enough evidence to suggest that this guy was involved with Sektor and that whatever he said simply could not be trusted until further questioning as anyone from the law would obviously do. I'm guessing its quite common to deal with liars who want to get away from punishment when busted. She wasn’t just going to say: “Ok, I trust you, go back to your business”.

So she barked and roared and tossed fire at the guy loosing her temper because he refused to cooperate, she was not buying his word and was definitely not going to let him go without doing some serious questioning. She was obviously pissed for everything that happened and what she had discovered.

So theres no relation between your equation of: "not trusting someone=caring about other peoples concepts of her". Just the Taven encounter contradicts that.

Another reason why your example is wrong is because Sonya actually has an extremely good reason to treat Taven the way she did. She treating Taven like a suspected individual or criminal doesn’t mean anything; too many things were showing evidence of his involvement with Sektor, so its not valid to compare her attitude towards him with the attitude she could had shown him under a different situation and circumstance.

Say, if she had been introduced to Taven under a different situation that didn’t involve Sektor, her missing best friend and team, the discovery of the Tekunin invasion and the attack, etc, she would had been calmed and nice enough to greet him and ask questions without turning into a dragon but being very Sonya.

Under completely different situations, its safe to say Sonya would had been nice and friendly. But Taven was too “dirty” to be trusted. Same with Frost.

Sure, once you get to know Sonya, she'll go to any mile for you...but until then, you're just a dirt clod in her way.

Thats harsh. There's no indication anywhere to suggest that she is arrogant towards others just because she doesn’t know them. Again, until we get some confirmation, her personality established in the games information remains the same.
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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
02/23/2008 03:12 AM (UTC)
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XIAHOUDUN....

Because she's steadfast, like I said. Until now, she's been able to hold her pain in check. Like a soldier who's been through many hard battles. He/she won't break down at the first sign of trouble, but he/she might eventually either go completely numb or break down. That doesn't mean he/she never felt any emotional pain until that moment...they just kept it in check.

The thing is, if she really is steadfast, it's a very inconspicuous trait, so it doesn't really help her seem distinct compared to Sonya. The bottomline, is that she's rigidly formal. Being steadfast seems like just a part of that cuz she's not gonna cry, whine, or get angry most of the time.

You see this as a good thing but I don't. People who walk around with a flat face the whole time are just boring, especially if they're characters. And sticking to the topic, how does this make her more inspiring than Sonya? What Kitana teaches women by being rigidly formal is that it's good to bottle your emotions and behave according to society's standards.

Sonya's personality, which screams "express yourself!," is incomparably more inspiring than that.

Okay, but then I still don't see how Jade's personality stands out. I began this questioning because you claimed Sonya and Jade were the only female characters with any true personality. Even if I accepted Jade being having athletic qualities, I'm still not seeing how what makes her stand out amongst the others.

Because Jade and Sonya aren't the typical goody-goody characters like all the other female heroes. They are good, but with style, and that's why Jade's personality is easily distinguishable.

Now Sonya....what makes her stand out from other tough chicks? She stands out within Mortal Kombat because she's the only "tough chick" in that sense....but take her out of Mortal Kombat and I think she falters.

No, Kira is also a tough chick. They said so in the concept art thing. "She had to be touch and wear lots of leather." So there.

Also, I still think Sonya isn't the typical tough chick. Take Rogue for example. She's also a tough chick with those typical in-your-face, strong, athletic, outspoken, brisk, pissy, and kick-ass traits but she is not bossy, aggressive, or die-hard protective of her friends like Sonya.

Sonya is distinguishable from Kira, Jade, or Rogue even though they're all tough. None of them have Sonya's signature passion and overconfidence.

I do genuinely believe Kitana and Mileena to be among the best examples of Mortal Kombat's capacity for creativity. Sonya.....I don't see it.

Sure, from a story point of view. That's exactly why I wanted to talk about Sonya's personality to show that even without super story potential and development, she's memorable and inspiring.

Game-wise, her moves have proven to be more likeable and creative than theirs, though.

She seems more concerned with showing off how "tough" she is, she doesn't know how to relax and just be a normal human being.

Kitana doesn't seem that way either being all uptight and all. At least Sonya was shown acting "normal" in the cartoon. Even there, Kitana's personality was painfully rigid and dull.

QUEVE.....

And from what do you get this idea? Nowhere in any of her bios or story is there even a hint of her caring what other people think about her or wanting to prove herself to the rest. Showing off her toughness? She simply doesn’t care.

The first movie showed this prominently about her though. I think that's where Xia gets the idea from.

Maybe she WAS that way in the past, for all we know. It doesn't seem that way anymore though, but she probably was. I personally think so, otherwise why would the movie have shown that so prominently about her?
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queve
02/23/2008 04:50 PM (UTC)
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To QS(tb):

queve: And from what do you get this idea? Nowhere in any of her bios or story is there even a hint of her caring what other people think about her or wanting to prove herself to the rest. Showing off her toughness? She simply doesn’t care.

QS(tb): The first movie showed this prominently about her though. I think that's where Xia gets the idea from. Maybe she WAS that way in the past, for all we know. It doesn't seem that way anymore though, but she probably was. I personally think so, otherwise why would the movie have shown that so prominently about her?


But the movie didn’t show any of that. Terms are being confused by you guys, and please, correct me if I'm wrong, but:

Being a bitch to Johnny Cage had absolutely *nothing* to do with the “I don’t know who you are so I will treat you like dirt” attitude which she has never shown, it had to do more with “Why the hell are you doing looking at me like a perv!” and “I'm doing my job so will you cut the flirting crap? I'm on an island filled with monsters worried about my target, mission, life, your life and Earths future, the last thing I need is your primitive male insinuations”.

More proof? Just look at the way she behaved with Liu Kang since the start. She was kind, friendly and polite and even respectful to the hero, and this obviously had to do with the fact that he wasn’t trying to flirt. Same thing with Rayden, who she had even more reasons to fear and not trust.

And just LOOK at the way she behaved with Shang Tsung. The perverted bastard. She was polite and respectful to the man...the strange man suddenly coming off from the shadows. Of course, she didn’t have a chance to react like a monster to his first direct flirt insinuation because in that precise moment Johnny Cage arrived along side Liu Kang (“Hey, be nice to the lady, she is just doing her job”).

Sonyas attitude towards Johnny, same as with Taven, is completely justified.

And don’t forget, it was also a necessary thing to give them that awesome “spark”, after all, her relation with Johnny Cage was obviously designed to be tender and hilarious, a love-hate funny situation: “The tough serious and cold tough chick falling for the egocentric annoying kind friendly and romantic movie star.”

You see? There's just no sign of her not being humble and wanting to show off. That role is played by sweet awesome Frost.

To give even some more insight, it was *Johnny Cage* the one in the movies who was worried about proving himself, showing off and worried about what other people thought about him, right? Sonya on the other hand, was the one who had trusting-issues, feared loosing another loved one, and needed to stop being so defensive, that had nothing to do with “showing off”. Liu Kang had his own story as well.

And as a final point, the movies are, after all, not strict-canon material, right?

But hey, like Xia and you said, I do think its probable that she was like that before, not the “I want to scream for attention and show off” crap, no, I'm talking about the part of being very mean and defensive and treating other people like dirt for whatever reason. Being a female in the SF must had been tough and very hard, and for all we know, her childhood was probably just as tough.

You are both correct in that part.

Btw, QS, what did you think of Sonya's role in Konquest? I was very very happy with the way they portrayed her in the game, it was just fantastic to hear her commanding and deadly voice in Sektor's Tekunin while destroying it, and even better to see her get rid of the ice monster so indifferently and her "I have FULL Authority" bit with Taven.

I was extremely happy they captured her essence perfectly!

Sonya's personality, which screams "express yourself!," is incomparably more inspiring than that.

Yeah, you really get this impression from her, that’s one of the reasons I really like her.

No, Kira is also a tough chick. They said so in the concept art thing. "She had to be touch and wear lots of leather." So there.

Also, I still think Sonya isn't the typical tough chick. Take Rogue for example. She's also a tough chick with those typical in-your-face, strong, athletic, outspoken, brisk, pissy, and kick-ass traits but she is not bossy, aggressive, or die-hard protective of her friends like Sonya.

Sonya is distinguishable from Kira, Jade, or Rogue even though they're all tough. None of them have Sonya's signature passion and overconfidence.


But, just mentioning in a concept art doesn’t necessarily make her tough, even if that was their intention. Like you said, she pretty much flew in Konquest when she smelled danger. Xia does have a point when he says Sonya is the only tough chick in “that sense”. I do think females like Kira and Sheeva are tough, but like you said, it’s not a trait in their personality that stands out. There's no “wow, that bitch is tough” aura around the rest.

Good examples, btw (Rogue and all).

And yeah, Sonya’s passion and spirit is actually something that’s also been mentioned a lot in many of the outside-the-games Mk stuff. The trading cards game gave her high rankings in the “spirit-heart” part, same as Johnny Cage. They mention very interesting bits of trivia about each characters insight and soul. Also the movies, the cartoon, some info on the Toys I believe (I will try to get a pic of the classic ones), etc. I like that passion, its awesome, even if it gets her into trouble from time to time.

*****
****
***
***********To Xia:*****

I do genuinely believe Kitana and Mileena to be among the best examples of Mortal Kombat's capacity for creativity.

I 100% agree. That story- in one word: Amazing!
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XiahouDun84
02/23/2008 10:41 PM (UTC)
0
"The bottomline, is that she's rigidly formal. You see this as a good thing but I don't. People who walk around with a flat face the whole time are just boring, especially if they're characters. And sticking to the topic, how does this make her more inspiring than Sonya? What Kitana teaches women by being rigidly formal is that it's good to bottle your emotions and behave according to society's standards.
Sonya's personality, which screams "express yourself!," is incomparably more inspiring than that."

Once again, I don't see what's "rigidly formal" about being calm and collected most of the time. You may see it as a having a flat face, but I like a character who keeps her emotions in check...who have more going on inside than out. I find her infinitely more interesting and likable. I also don't see how Kitana bottling her emotions is her conforming to society's standards. No one's telling her to do it...it's a character flaw, which is another reason I like Kitana. I like flawed characters.

I didn't get involved in this discussion for the whole role model thing. My response was to your insistence that Kitana and others have no personality. As for the whole inspiration thing....well first of all, I think role models are for the weak. Like I said, I'll take a flawed and interesting character over some "role model" any day. However, while she does have emotional turmoil, I think her ability to succeed and strive on in spite of that is what makes her inspiring. That she's come this far against all odds and in spite of life giving her one swift kick to the head after the other.

While on this subject, I thought Warlady made an interesting point about how the "tough chick" can be damaging to the image of women. If a female character isn't a "tough chick," with an in-your-face personality, screaming about how tough she is...she is therefore a rigid, formal, submissive flower. Kitana doesn't broadcast her toughness like Sonya does...therefore to you, she is "comforming to society's standards" and somehow less inspiring. I guess women aren't allowed to be the "strong silent type."


"Also, I still think Sonya isn't the typical tough chick. Take Rogue for example. She's also a tough chick with those typical in-your-face, strong, athletic, outspoken, brisk, pissy, and kick-ass traits but she is not bossy, aggressive, or die-hard protective of her friends like Sonya. Sure, from a story point of view. That's exactly why I wanted to talk about Sonya's personality to show that even without super story potential and development, she's memorable and inspiring."
I don't see Rogue as the typical "tough chick." She has more going on than that. I'll tell you who the typical "tough chick" is and why Sonya never impressed me. Look to the flood of "tough chicks" that came out of the "bad girl" craze in comics through the 90's. A practical army of in-your-face, outsoken, bossy, aggressive female characters who practially screamed how tough they were. Silver Sable. The Huntress. Avengelyne. Zealot. Hellina. Artemis. Razor. The list goes on. Outside of comics, dozens of lame action movies that threw in at least one obligatory "tough chicK" so they could appear PC like the token black man. The only significant difference between Sonya and most of those characters is she wears more clothes.

This is why Sonya never impressed me. And most of the characters I listed have since disappeared into obscurity. The ones still around are the ones who developed into something more than just the "tough chick." Very few gave a rat's ass about the Huntress until writers actually started portraying her as an actual character and developed her into something interesting and likable. This is why Sonya Blade still doesn't impress me. She's still just the "tough chick." Obviously, not everyone has grown weary of this type of character, and God bless. But me, I need something more.

This is probably why I see Sonya as being unpleasant to be around. It's not the movies, I try to acknowledge the movies as little as possible. Might also have something to do with the fact that I've actually met people like Sonya. They start arguments for no reason and act needlessly bitchy and are so proud of how tough and independent they are they just have to broadcast it in your face.

I'm not saying I have a problem with women being tough and independent, but I have a problem with people who are obnoxious assholes about that sort of thing.


"Kitana doesn't seem that way either being all uptight and all. At least Sonya was shown acting "normal" in the cartoon. Even there, Kitana's personality was painfully rigid and dull."
Kitana's never really had much of a chance to ever really relax. She always too busy and taking on responsiblities. This is something I find sympathetic about her. She doesn't give herself time to relax and be happy.
I don't acknowledge the cartoons. They were trash and non-canon, therefore have no effect on my view of the characters.
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queve
02/24/2008 05:01 AM (UTC)
0
To Xia:

I think role models are for the weak

That’s a very...silly thing to say.

Role models don’t necessarily mean someone you have to be like, it’s more about getting inspired by the positive and wanting to make a difference and a change. Follow great steps to cross boundaries and climb mountains to achieve something wonderful. (And I'm talking general, forget mk)

How can it be for the weak? How can being inspired by someone to do something wonderful for others or yourself be for the weak? How can being inspired by someone’s charisma, faith, perseverance, etc. to change for the better, be for the weak? I find this comment extremely....silly. Very much.

I like a character who keeps her emotions in check...who have more going on inside than out.

I agree to some extent, but that (or she) mostly remind me (too much) of the thousand typical boring Anime-like characters.

No one's telling her to do it...it's a character flaw, which is another reason I like Kitana. I like flawed characters.

How do *you* know? (lol, just kidding, but kind of wanting to make a point with this).

Now, seriously, how do you know? You get the impression Sonya wants to show off or cant relax or be a simple human or that she cares about crap by basically seeing her tough personality, despite the long explanation/proof I wrote that justifies those tough moments.

But as far as we know, Sindel among other possible high-status members of her Kingdom are telling Kitana *exactly* the way she *should* behave and act and lead and be, because she is an important figure AND princes, the future heir. It all makes sense. Her turmoil must be sensed by them so they are trying to keep her in cheek. She represents her realm and must behave as a Princess and leader should behave. None of this nonsense of being sad and tired. That’s all that matters, specially in such troubled times, and for Kitanas world, that’s been always. So she very well could be conforming to societies expectations and standards.

That wouldn’t be a surprise, and it suits with the flat face QS(tb) talks about. It makes sense seeing as she is suddenly sick of fighting, probably sick of holding her true feelings and thoughts inside, sick of everything. She is tired of being the Princess they want her to be.

I'm not saying this is how she is, but its highly possible considering her personality and what I think QS(tb) has tried to explain.

So I don’t see it like this:

I thought Warlady made an interesting point about how the "tough chick" can be damaging to the image of women. If a female character isn't a "tough chick," with an in-your-face personality, screaming about how tough she is...she is therefore a rigid, formal, submissive flower. Kitana doesn't broadcast her toughness like Sonya does...therefore to you, she is "comforming to society's standards" and somehow less inspiring. I guess women aren't allowed to be the "strong silent type."

Its got nothing to do with going to extremes: a character being tough-in-your-face on one side, and the other a rigid-formal-flower on the other. Its just the major parts of those extremes which we are getting, isn’t it? If Sonya or a female like her with her strong tough personality didn’t exist in MK, at all, it still wouldn’t change Kitana one bit, so I highly doubt Kitana is being viewed as a submissive flower because you have a tough cold Blond on the other side.

And btw, I too like flawed characters, and there are plenty of those in Mk. And Sonya being a “role model” doesn’t make her perfect, like the rest, she has her own flaws.

She's still just the "tough chick". This is probably why I see Sonya as being unpleasant to be around. It's not the movies, I try to acknowledge the movies as little as possible. Might also have something to do with the fact that I've actually met people like Sonya. They start arguments for no reason and act needlessly bitchy and are so proud of how tough and independent they are they just have to broadcast it in your face. I have a problem with people who are obnoxious assholes about that sort of thing.

Again, you are simply getting your view from a wrong assumption and generalizing a stereotype. There's no proof of Sonya being like those people you have met. There's no hint of her not being humble, of starting any arguments for no reason, of being needlessly bitchy, and showing off pride of being tough like them or the other tough chicks of comics, games, etc.

If you find her toughness unpleasant, I think its got more to do with the fact that she causes intimidation more then anything else, because she has proven to be just as friendly to strangers and friends, as she can be just as cold to strangers and friends as well.

My previous post above still stands.

I don't acknowledge the cartoons. They were trash and non-canon, therefore have no effect on my view of the characters.

I don’t think the cartoon, comics and movies examples were to confirm that Kitana *is* like that and period, but more like a confirmation that that’s just the way she is generally suggested and viewed in the games, and therefore, portrayed like that outside the games as well.
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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
02/24/2008 05:26 AM (UTC)
0
QUEVE...

I got the impression that Sonya wanted to prove her toughness in the first film because of how she kept denying her fears and weaknesses despite knowing she needed help and was afraid of things.

It didn't seem like she was trying to prove it to other people but to herself. Raiden pointed out her fears, like "You're afraid to admit that even you sometimes need help."

That made me think that she knew she was insecure but she was insistence on coming off otherwise.

I know the films aren't canon but a lot of things in the game later on were inspired by the films, like Johnny's relationship with her and his rivarly with Goro. So that's why I think there most likely was a time when Sonya felt compelled to prove her toughness by denying her fears and weaknesses.

Personally, she really seemed like one of those characters that have gone through a lot of shit so now they're pissed and hide they're weaknesses so whatever happened to them in the past won't happen again.

I loved Sonya's attitude in konquest. It was sooo her. And I don't think Sonya is rude to anyone she doesn't know. If Taven were some old man or woman, she would have been polite. It would contradict her well-established caring nature to behave that way to every stanger anyway.

But, just mentioning in a concept art doesn’t necessarily make her tough, even if that was their intention. Like you said, she pretty much flew in Konquest when she smelled danger. Xia does have a point when he says Sonya is the only tough chick in “that sense”. I do think females like Kira and Sheeva are tough, but like you said, it’s not a trait in their personality that stands out. There's no “wow, that bitch is tough” aura around the rest.

Kira's strength and will-power was well-established in her bio, I think. She escaped a cave full of men who wanted to kill her all on her own and that toughness impressed Kabal. She was also brave enough to even disguise herself as a man among such hostile people. She had "balls," so to speak. Plus just look at that victory pose of hers. That's a hardass face and pose she puts on.

Yeah, she ran away from Taven but that was probably due to the makers not wanting us to fight both Kobra and Kira. Since she's not a top character it probably wasn't hard to ignore her toughness from MKD and just have her run away. Who knows though.

XIAHOUDUN...

You make it sound like if Kitana is an ocean of personality. Her personality is simply plain. She only says what needs to be said and she says it without ever any humor, anger, sadness, or any other emotion. It's as if she's not human. She never surprises us. She never behaves interestingly. She's like this in the games, films, and toon. So reserved without ever anything amusing to say or anything unique to show. She's just a serious goody-goody person who walks around with the same expression on her face wherever she goes.

You say she bottles her emotions. Storm does this too but even she acts like a human and not some straightforward robot. In fact, no one supresses there emotions more than Storm because she'll hurt or kill people if she doesn't and she's known to be serene also, but does that mean she's constantly serious and unemotional?

At least Storm unleashes her pain and anger once in a while. Even Rose did this in Titanic: "I'm through being polite, goddamn it!" Raiden has done the same thing by turning "dark." Why can't Kitana do this at least once to show that she's ALIVE? That she's a real human with real feelings?

If Kitana's personality was truly multi-dimensional, she'd show more things than just calmness and self-control. That's why she appears so flat to me because that's all she ever shows. Not only is the lack of energy so boring, imo, but it never changes to top it off. Sure, there are exceptions to her personality here and there, but like 90 or 95% of the time she's just the same ole directly goody goody character.

The MK team has yet to give her personality anything special. And lets be honest. You are a hardcore MK-story fan. Without the interesting roles Kitana has had and the events she's gone though throughout the series, you wouldn't even be defending her here most likely.

She was Kahn's assassin in MK2. If she had remained in that position until now (the same way Sonya has remained the same bad-guy hunting military chick or Reptile the same boss servant), you would not be saying anything good about her personality I think. You'd probably be saying that she needs to go because she's "the same thing at the end of the day."

What I think you're doing is saying she can have many faces because she's had many roles: an assassin, a rogue servant,.... leader, etc. Those variations do not mean her personality is versatile like Sonya's. Her story can change all it wants but she always has the same personality (except maybe in MK2 where she was kinda mysterious and sneaky).

You can at least ADMIT that her personality should be more developed. Warlady said that the Mk Team gave Sonya no development so that she can always remain "the tough chick." Well that's what I feel about Kitana. So that she will always appear "beautiful" and "romantic," they gave her no emotions and no outstanding traits. I mean afterall, you can't look beautiful with a frown on your face, can you?

Praise the fact that she's "steadfast" all you want, as if it's even conspicuous first of all, and secondly it's only cuz she's as stiff as a beauty pageant contestant: "I'm beautiful and want world peace." Is that all you have to say? "Yes."

Kitana is simply a fighting-game version of that. She's not passionate or perceptive (I'd like to point out that Sonya's perception was also shown in Annihilation with Jade and she was right yet again) or clever or able to "let her hair down" so to speak at least once in a while.

And again, don't think that I hate Kitana. I do hate her lack of personality and eye-rolling romantic image, but I still like her as a playable character. I pick her quite often in DA and MKA and I like her relationship with Mileena. If she wouldn't be perpetually bound to "beauty" and formality however, she'd be a lot more interesting and would actually appear more relatable and unpredictable.

And finally, I'm not trying to nail into your mind that Sonya's personality is better than Kitana's. I'm trying to show you how one actually HAS a personality while the other has little or none.
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queve
02/25/2008 03:29 AM (UTC)
0
To QS(tb)

I got the impression that Sonya wanted to prove her toughness in the first film because of how she kept denying her fears and weaknesses despite knowing she needed help and was afraid of things. It didn't seem like she was trying to prove it to other people but to herself. Raiden pointed out her fears, like "You're afraid to admit that even you sometimes need help." That made me think that she knew she was insecure but she was insistence on coming off otherwise.

Exactly. There's a difference between wanting to prove that to herself for personal/whatever reasons, then wanting to “show it off” or prove it to everyone else to get attention.

So we are right in something, there's no hint of her being that sort of bitchy arrogant person who screams for attention, who likes to show off or even care (in that aspect at least) about what others think about her.

I loved that about Sonya. That’s why I mentioned earlier about her being defensive.

I know the films aren't canon but a lot of things in the game later on were inspired by the films, like Johnny's relationship with her and his rivarly with Goro. So that's why I think there most likely was a time when Sonya felt compelled to prove her toughness by denying her fears and weaknesses. Personally, she really seemed like one of those characters that have gone through a lot of shit so now they're pissed and hide they're weaknesses so whatever happened to them in the past won't happen again.

True as well. And there are plenty of other inspired materials as well: Take Sonyas Mk4 complete Bridgtte Wilson transformation, and her suddenly short hair in MKDA with that Sandra Hess style. Also Kano’s change to Australian, Johnny Cage’s MK4 “movie” suit, Rayden’s Christopher Lambert look in MKDA-MKD-MKA, Shang Tsungs MK1 movie ship, the movie Kitana-Liu Kang relationship, etc.

I loved Sonya's attitude in konquest. It was sooo her. And I don't think Sonya is rude to anyone she doesn't know. If Taven were some old man or woman, she would have been polite. It would contradict her well-established caring nature to behave that way to every stanger anyway

Agreed. I loved her scenes very much. I personally would had liked to see her interact with Jax or maybe even Kano for a final time somewhere around Konquest to get some insight of the other 2 as well.

Kira's strength and will-power was well-established in her bio, I think. She escaped a cave full of men who wanted to kill her all on her own and that toughness impressed Kabal. She was also brave enough to even disguise herself as a man among such hostile people. She had "balls," so to speak. Plus just look at that victory pose of hers. That's a hardass face and pose she puts on.

Well said. I'm not putting in question her strength or will power though, like I said, she is definitely tough, and I LOVED that part about her bio (disguising herself like a men), but I still think that despite having “balls”, her stronger features are her manipulative disciplined behavior and mind, and her anarchy desires, more then the “tough” part. She is tough, but that’s not a dominant part of her. I see her more like a “tough” Nitara and a “tough” Sareena for example, not a “tough” Sonya.

Btw, lol, the hardass face, Im not sure, but I think she looks too weird/ugly, not tough. Oh! Btw, what was her victory pose like? Wasnt it like Sonyas Kenpo one in MKDA? I don’t recall (I think she had it in MKD). I only remember her face being very ugly.

So that she will always appear "beautiful" and "romantic," they gave her no emotions and no outstanding traits. I mean afterall, you can't look beautiful with a frown on your face, can you? She's as stiff as a beauty pageant contestant: "I'm beautiful and want world peace." Is that all you have to say? "Yes." If she wouldn't be perpetually bound to "beauty" and formality however, she'd be a lot more interesting and would actually appear more relatable and unpredictable.

You know, you really have a good point (I'm talking about all the “bound to beauty and formality” part people! Just in case someone jumps to bite my head off...), and I have some info that will really interest you:

There is this awesome official MK Gold magazine that had commentaries from Ed, John and the rest, and in each page, each character was given a very cool special note/trivia about their personalities or charisma. I really loved that.

I perfectly remember that for Kitana it only said: “Gifted with Beauty” .

For Sonya Blade, it said: “A Deadly Weapon”.

It makes sense with what you are saying. What do you think? (Someone can look it up for confirmation/correction. And while you guys are at it, please, do post the other bits of personality notes and traits about the rest of the MKG characters, they were really cool!)

Like I said in a post above: I do see that those examples (games, comics, cartoon, movies, etc.) back up that that’s just the way she is generally suggested and viewed in the games, and therefore, portrayed like that outside the games as well.
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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
02/25/2008 07:42 AM (UTC)
0
queve Wrote:
Exactly. There's a difference between wanting to prove that to herself for personal/whatever reasons, then wanting to “show it off” or prove it to everyone else to get attention.

That's right.

Well she was trying to prove it to somebody so that's probably where Xia got the idea of her wanting be a show off and stuff.

Btw, lol, the hardass face, Im not sure, but I think she looks too weird/ugly, not tough. Oh! Btw, what was her victory pose like? Wasnt it like Sonyas Kenpo one in MKDA? I don’t recall (I think she had it in MKD). I only remember her face being very ugly.

LOL!! Why does everyone hate her face? Ugh. Not every female has too look pretty and cute or whatever. I'm very content with the face they give Kira.

I like how at least one girl can look like a nasty bitch! Lol.

There is this awesome official MK Gold magazine that had commentaries from Ed, John and the rest, and in each page, each character was given a very cool special note/trivia about their personalities or charisma. I really loved that.

I perfectly remember that for Kitana it only said: “Gifted with Beauty” .

For Sonya Blade, it said: “A Deadly Weapon”.

It makes sense with what you are saying. What do you think?

Well it helps validate what I mean by her image being restricted to beauty. My issue with Kitana is that she can look beautiful or whatever but doesn't have to act so dull. They really need to give her some spirit and personality instead of just new stories.

I swear Sonya and her are the opposite. One has a highly developed, versatile personality with an undeveloped story and the other one has it the other way around.

Like I said in a post above: I do see that those examples (games, comics, cartoon, movies, etc.) back up that that’s just the way she is generally suggested and viewed in the games, and therefore, portrayed like that outside the games as well.

Exactly. That's the same reason Sonya is depicted as tough, passionately caring, humorous, and grounded outside the games also. It's an elaboration of her game personality it seems, which is good and always fun to see.
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XiahouDun84
02/26/2008 07:39 AM (UTC)
0
"Role models don’t necessarily mean someone you have to be like, it’s more about getting inspired by the positive and wanting to make a difference and a change. Follow great steps to cross boundaries and climb mountains to achieve something wonderful. (And I'm talking general, forget mk)

How can it be for the weak? How can being inspired by someone to do something wonderful for others or yourself be for the weak? How can being inspired by someone’s charisma, faith, perseverance, etc. to change for the better, be for the weak? I find this comment extremely....silly. Very much."

And you needed someone else to tell you to succeed and persevere is a good thing? We're alone in this world and to rely on others for anything is a sign of weakness.


"If Sonya or a female like her with her strong tough personality didn’t exist in MK, at all, it still wouldn’t change Kitana one bit, so I highly doubt Kitana is being viewed as a submissive flower because you have a tough cold Blond on the other side."
My comment wasn't directed at you in paticular. I know YOU know that Kitana isn't some submissive flower. I was referring to QueenSindel who has frequently written Kitana off as weak, delicate flower...simply because she doesn't have the overt, in-your-face personality someone like Sonya has.


"She only says what needs to be said and she says it without ever any humor, anger, sadness, or any other emotion."
Well for starters that's wrong. I've already pointed out the times Kitana's expressed emotion...except for humor, you got me on that one. I'll grant that Kitana isn't a very light-hearted character.

Second of all, let's remember how the story of Mortal Kombat is told and how we get to know the characters: bios and endings. As you've already pointed out:
"The writers don't stop to tell us about each time the characters cry, whine, or feel depressed over something."

How many times...IN CANON...have we seen the characters actually interacting and displaying their personalities? The MK4/Gold endings, the MK1 and MK2 comics, and Konquest. A large percentage of what makes the characters "deep" and have "personality" is what we read into it. Whether this is a good thing or bad thing depends on your point of view, but as long as it's based on something canon or at least solid logic. Sometimes people's views can contradict each other, such as queve and I disagreeing on the subject of Mileena's self-loathing. But both of our views are based based on something more than merely "That's just how I see her." Invertly, I see Sareena with a very upbeat and almost perky personality...when she's not being enslaved by Quan Chi or losing control of her Demon instincts anyway....but that's not really based on anything at all, so I'm not going to debate anyone on that. And until we get more evidence to show she's NOT that way, I'll continue to view Sareena in that light.

There are certain quirks and aspects of Kitana's personality that I see, but aren't based on anything. But, she does have aspects of her that are indeed based on canon evidence and simply storytelling logic. Now you write off everything I say about Kitana as mere assumption and speculation...but let me ask you this: how do we know Sonya felt anything when her Special Forces team was killed? After MK1, her team is never mentioned again. We just assume it was a horrible experience for her and that she feels anger and sadness over it. We assume that, and the other losses she's experienced are what causes Sonya to be slow to trust, yet very protective of those she does. But they've never actually pointed it out to us. So how do we know? Because it'd be ludicrous for her NOT to have some sort of reaction or response to it. I wouldn't even call that assumption...more like, putting two and two together.

If it's not enough for you to accept that any reasonable human being would have some kind of reaction to the life Kitana's had...
"Why can't Kitana do this at least once to show that she's ALIVE?"
...um, Unchained...when Kitana broke down over the stress she'd been feeling? Throughout MK:DA's Konquest, when we learn she was frustrated because her army could break Kano's defense....saddened by the loss of both Goro and Liu Kang...aggravated by Bo' Rai Cho's brand of humor. If I wanted to, I could also point to Shaolin Monks...which showed a much angrier and more aggressive Kitana. But Shaolin Monks, like the movies and TV shows is bullshit...therefore invalid.


"She was Kahn's assassin in MK2. If she had remained in that position until now (the same way Sonya has remained the same bad-guy hunting military chick or Reptile the same boss servant), you would not be saying anything good about her personality I think. You'd probably be saying that she needs to go because she's "the same thing at the end of the day."
If ANY character remained in the same position and role the whole time, I would criticize him/her.

While true, Reptile has essentially remained a constant henchman, HE has altered with the story. While in the beginning, he seemed somewhat sympathetic and redeemable, he's gradually become more animalistic and evil.


"What I think you're doing is saying she can have many faces because she's had many roles: an assassin, a rogue servant,.... leader, etc. Those variations do not mean her personality is versatile like Sonya's. Her story can change all it wants but she always has the same personality (except maybe in MK2 where she was kinda mysterious and sneaky)."
See that's just the thing. According to proper storytelling....that goes hand-in-hand. That's what character development is. Theoretically, personality adapts with the roles a character takes. Kitana the assassin should not be exactly the same as Kitana the Princess. Just like Sub-Zero the Lin Kuei assassin is not exactly the same as Sub-Zero the Lin Kuei Grandmaster.


"And again, don't think that I hate Kitana. I do hate her lack of personality and eye-rolling romantic image, but I still like her as a playable character. I pick her quite often in DA and MKA and I like her relationship with Mileena."
And this means what to me?


"You can at least ADMIT that her personality should be more developed."
To an extent. It already has developed, but I make no secret it should keep going. Kitana has changed, but if she's to continue she must keep moving....hence my insistence if she returns, she should renounce her title as Princess so we can see some new sides of her. I will grant that Kitana's role as Princess isn't the most exciting role for her...it's bogged her down with a cycle of constantly defending Edenia and the title in itself has tarnished her image as a fighter to be taken seriously....but that doesn't mean there were no sides of her to begin with. And yes, she should keep moving as ALL characters should. Characters should never stay static.


I also want to question: So I'm completely off about Sonya being an unpleasant bitch and it's only my assumption based on a stereotype....and I'll accept that maybe I wrote her off as something she isn't (even though she is still little more than the average tough chick)...yet Kitana being a plastic beauty pageant contestant because she has a reserved and introspective personality is dead-on-balls accurate?

But then that goes back to what I said about how it's all in how deep we read into it. It's not that Kitana has no personality, it's just not as blatant as Sonya's, and apparently, not one QueenSindel favors. I don't care what QueenSindel likes or doesn't like, but don't tell me Kitana has no personality because it isn't as in-your-face as you'd like it to be and you base your interpretation of Kitana on the word "princess" and how she's presented in some lame movies and cartoons.


I know the films aren't canon but a lot of things in the game later on were inspired by the films, like Johnny's relationship with her and his rivarly with Goro. So that's why I think there most likely was a time when Sonya felt compelled to prove her toughness by denying her fears and weaknesses. Personally, she really seemed like one of those characters that have gone through a lot of shit so now they're pissed and hide they're weaknesses so whatever happened to them in the past won't happen again."
True as well. And there are plenty of other inspired materials as well: Take Sonyas Mk4 complete Bridgtte Wilson transformation, and her suddenly short hair in MKDA with that Sandra Hess style. Also Kano’s change to Australian, Johnny Cage’s MK4 “movie” suit, Rayden’s Christopher Lambert look in MKDA-MKD-MKA, Shang Tsungs MK1 movie ship, the movie Kitana-Liu Kang relationship, etc."

And every time they do that, the Mortal Kombat fan in me dies just a little bit more.

"I don’t think the cartoon, comics and movies examples were to confirm that Kitana *is* like that and period, but more like a confirmation that that’s just the way she is generally suggested and viewed in the games, and therefore, portrayed like that outside the games as well. Like I said in a post above: I do see that those examples (games, comics, cartoon, movies, etc.) back up that that’s just the way she is generally suggested and viewed in the games, and therefore, portrayed like that outside the games as well."
Have I ever NOT criticized the movies for their portrayal of Kitana? Have I ever NOT complained about how they conveniently left out key details of Kitana that make her interesting? Like I said, basic logic dictates that someone with the background Kitana (from the games) has would define various characteristics of her personality. They ignored key factors of her backstory, leaving very little left to work with except some vaguely mysterious heroic princess. The cardboard performance of Talisa Soto ad her mediorce fighting skills didn't help.

Remember how I mentioned I don't see Kitana or Wonder Woman or Leia as the typcial warrior princess? Want to know who IS the typical warrior princess? The MOVIE and CARTOON version of Kitana.

Why should I allow my view of Kitana be tainted because some hack writers thought I'd be too stupid to appreciate things like character depth or complexity? And I speak not just of Kitana, but all the characters who were butchered because of that shit. Sub-Zero, Scorpion (who, much to my chagrin, did eventually become like his movie/show counterpart), Jade, Shao Kahn...especially Shao Kahn.

Sadly, not even the MK team themselves are above such laziness....
"You know, you really have a good point (I'm talking about all the “bound to beauty and formality” part people! Just in case someone jumps to bite my head off...), and I have some info that will really interest you:
There is this awesome official MK Gold magazine that had commentaries from Ed, John and the rest, and in each page, each character was given a very cool special note/trivia about their personalities or charisma. I really loved that.

I perfectly remember that for Kitana it only said: “Gifted with Beauty” .
For Sonya Blade, it said: “A Deadly Weapon”.

It makes sense with what you are saying."

Ah lovely, as if I needed more reason to hate Ed Boon and the MK team.

You know, sometimes I hope they would just kill off Kitana and Sareena so I can stop caring about this bullshit...
Avatar
Warlady
Avatar
About Me

NTO CULU

02/26/2008 11:51 AM (UTC)
0
I love you, XD84... Finally someone who agrees that Sonya is as likable as an apple with a worm. I have met MALE and FEMALE bitches like her too and they are unendurable.
I agree that role models should be found in life: I just felt I had to deal with that issue, as I have found it frequently even on other boards. I am a bit disappointed that this developed into a Sonya vs Kitana thing, though, as it is pointless. Nobody here is saying that Kitana is perfect, but some characters simply have more going for them than others, and I don't think it is a biased opinion. I suspect Sonya fans are mad as Kitana is the main heroine while Sonya is not. Anyway, a Sonya fan who complains about Kitana's story or personality sounds like the proverbial bull who speaks about the donkey's horns.
Avatar
queve
02/26/2008 05:07 PM (UTC)
0
To Xia:

And you needed someone else to tell you to succeed and persevere is a good thing? We're alone in this world and to rely on others for anything is a sign of weakness.

It must be really sad and boring for anyone to be alone in the world.

Who said anything about “relying” on role models? I didn’t mention anything about relying on others at all, I kept talking to you about inspiration. Your response about “role models” still fails to be logical if that’s your only explanation, its still extremely silly.

And whats your point with: “and you needed someone to tell you to succeed and persevere is a good thing?”? This makes your statement even worse if that’s possible. It seems like your entire view about role models is just limited to those two examples above, which is wrong.

For starters, that has little to do with my answer above, its got nothing to do with: “OH! so doing that is a good thing? wow, *I didn’t know*, now I can succeed!” or “I NEED that role model alive so I can succeed!”, its got to do with “Wow, I want to be able to do something like that in the future!” or “Wow, that has really inspired me to..........I know I can do it too!” or it can be such strong inspiration that wakes something in you from who-knows-where and makes you not just say it, but actually DO it: “I WANT to make a difference”. All these are not just for *your own gain*, they have plenty to do with helping others as well. You fail to see the point of role models if you think having them makes you weak, stupid or a completely different person.

It also sounds silly considering more then just parents actually tell their kids (same thing applies to friends, etc.) that these are the sort of things they should be doing, constantly encouraging them to succeed, never give up, etc. I don’t need a role model to tell me that “success is a good thing” because I already learned that, I don’t need a role model to have a life. I don’t have a role model at all. It’s the great things in great people that count! Those things help to make a role model, those things are what truly count. People are never saints or perfect. Its their good actions and decisions what makes them great.

I'm not saying there's something wrong with not having a role model. Many don’t feel they have or need one. I don’t think I *need* it. I'm saying there's something wrong when you think its for the weak. Just because you don’t need a role model, doesn’t make you stronger or smarter then the rest. Just because someone gets inspired by something great someone else did, doesn’t mean they didn’t know about it, or that they are weak.

And where do you think the majority of the kids develop their personality and self-esteem? If you never encourage your kids in such way or do the complete opposite with them, where do you expect them to be? School, their supposed “second home” is a challenge to many of them. They WILL eventually need someone to help them learn “right from wrong”. And not just kids, we all do. As humans, we never cease to learn new things.

Just because role models tell you these things you already know, doesn’t make them useless. It doesn’t force you to “rely” on them. Kids actually need to hear it; they will eventually learn it in life as well, but you can also teach them, cant you? I guess their parents are making them weak by encouraging them with advice according to you. And just as another example, What if someone believes their parents are great role models? Does that make them weak? Do they want to BE their parents?

What if someone considers *you* a role model, say, for being “truthfully passionate and creative about the arts”, or for being “serene, calculative and wise in certain things”, or for being “very informed about culture” or “trying to always be fair and just with people” or “always trying to get better” or “always being there for the ones who need you and making other people feel good, even if you aren’t feeling that good yourself”, etc.

Does that make them weak?

You see why there's no sense in your post?

You are *100% CORRECT* with your insinuation that to always rely on others isn’t a good thing, but that was never the point of the posts.

Whatever your reasons may be (I'm sorry if there is something that has happened to you in life that makes you say you are alone or other personal reasons), you are not doing a good job defending your point, because no matter how strong you are, you will eventually stumble, and while there are times you NEED to get up alone, there will be those times where you will need a hand.

And that doesn’t make you weak.

It makes you human.

smile

My comment wasn't directed at you in paticular. I know YOU know that Kitana isn't some submissive flower. I was referring to QueenSindel who has frequently written Kitana off as weak, delicate flower...simply because she doesn't have the overt, in-your-face personality someone like Sonya has.

I know. I was just kind of pointing out that QS(tb) doesn’t consider Kitana “a submissive flower” *because* of Sonya. Take Sonya out of Mk, or any new female with her toughness, and you still have Kitana, and you still have what QS(tb) is talking about. That’s what I meant. Sorry if it caused any confusion. smile

How many times...IN CANON...have we seen the characters actually interacting and displaying their personalities? The MK4/Gold endings, the MK1 and MK2 comics, and Konquest. A large percentage of what makes the characters "deep" and have "personality" is what we read into it. Whether this is a good thing or bad thing depends on your point of view, but as long as it's based on something canon or at least solid logic. Sometimes people's views can contradict each other, such as queve and I disagreeing on the subject of Mileena's self-loathing. But both of our views are based based on something more than merely "That's just how I see her." Invertly, I see Sareena with a very upbeat and almost perky personality...when she's not being enslaved by Quan Chi or losing control of her Demon instincts anyway....but that's not really based on anything at all, so I'm not going to debate anyone on that. And until we get more evidence to show she's NOT that way, I'll continue to view Sareena in that light.

There are certain quirks and aspects of Kitana's personality that I see, but aren't based on anything. But, she does have aspects of her that are indeed based on canon evidence and simply storytelling logic. Now you write off everything I say about Kitana as mere assumption and speculation...but let me ask you this: how do we know Sonya felt anything when her Special Forces team was killed? After MK1, her team is never mentioned again. We just assume it was a horrible experience for her and that she feels anger and sadness over it. We assume that, and the other losses she's experienced are what causes Sonya to be slow to trust, yet very protective of those she does. But they've never actually pointed it out to us. So how do we know? Because it's be ludicrous for her NOT to have some sort of reaction or response to it. I wouldn't even call that assumption...more like, putting two and two together.

If it's not enough for you to accept that any reasonable human being would have some kind of reaction to the life Kitana's had...


But that’s just the point. While there is obviously so much more then what meets the eye for all characters, and everyone can see and accept that, all of them are somehow known, bounded or whatever by predominant traits they developed/have in the games, and this are the traits that are generally perceived and exploited about them inside the game, as well as outside.

Like I said in a post above: I do see that those examples (games, comics, cartoon, movies, etc.) back up that that’s just the way she is generally suggested and viewed in the games, and therefore, portrayed like that outside the games as well.

See that's just the thing. According to proper storytelling....that goes hand-in-hand. That's what character development is. Theoretically, personality adapts with the roles a character takes. Kitana the assassin should not be exactly the same as Kitana the Princess. Just like Sub-Zero the Lin Kuei assassin is not exactly the same as Sub-Zero the Lin Kuei Grandmaster.

I partially agree, because this is not the case with all characters. Because its not always that having a new/different role what gives a character a different personality that adapts to said roles or story. Kitashh is a great example. Despite his enormous changes as a leader, as a traitor, as a lover, as a mercenary, as a slave, his hybrid condition, his “adaptation” to be side by side with the enemy that he by instinct hates, and changes inside his soul or heart as well, he was just the same cold-indifferent-confident-flat face anime like hero, and he even started as the main villain and later a sort of anti-hero. My point: All those changes in his life never changed his attitude or personality, at all. That’s why I see why QS(tb) says Kitana lacks personality development.

And this means what to me?

wow wow

That she isn’t being biased.

And every time they do that, the Mortal Kombat fan in me dies just a little bit more.

LOL. I'm very happy about it as long as its something good. I do hear and understand your frustration about the weird Kitana-Liu romance for example, but not everyone hates it, and when it came to things such as certain looks and all, its all awesome for me.

Have I ever NOT criticized the movies for their portrayal of Kitana? Have I ever NOT complained about how they conveniently left out key details of Kitana that make her interesting? Like I said, basic logic dictates that someone with the background Kitana (from the games) has would define various characteristics of her personality. They ignored key factors of her backstory, leaving very little left to work with except some vaguely mysterious heroic princess. The cardboard performance of Talisa Soto ad her mediorce fighting skills didn't help.

Remember how I mentioned I don't see Kitana or Wonder Woman or Leia as the typcial warrior princess? Want to know who IS the typical warrior princess? The MOVIE and CARTOON version of Kitana.

Why should I allow my view of Kitana be tainted because some hack writers thought I'd be too stupid to appreciate things like character depth or complexity? And I speak not just of Kitana, but all the characters who were butchered because of that shit. Sub-Zero, Scorpion (who, much to my chagrin, did eventually become like his movie/show counterpart), Jade, Shao Kahn...especially Shao Kahn.

Sadly, not even the MK team themselves are above such laziness....


True, but sadly, only us, the real-deep-complex-developed-story lovers-inquisitive-fans can see all of that and more. I'm guessing people could see much more of Kitana (and Sonya, and Scorpion, and Liu Kang, etc) if she was portrayed to be more *alive* in the games. I'm not agreeing with QS(tb’s) entire view on the matter, dont take me wrong, but I do think she has a point. Kitana’s personality is just too bounded with the beauty, formality, Edeninan Princess, and other things she and even you said, that it gives her the flatness she complains about, it just doesn’t give fans, the outside people (cartoons, movies, comics, etc.) and even the team itself as you saw (“Gifted with Beauty”/“Pretty Kick”) the opportunity to see all the other qualities. I think there's much more then just “pretty” and “beauty” in Kitana, you see it, I'm sure QS(tb) see’s it too, her point is just that its not well developed because its been predominant in her as well as the formality part as well.

And now, to Warlady:

I love you, XD84... Finally someone who agrees that Sonya is as likable as an apple with a worm. I have met MALE and FEMALE bitches like her too and they are unendurable.
I agree that role models should be found in life: I just felt I had to deal with that issue, as I have found it frequently even on other boards.


1.- Even he admitted he went a bit off with his assumption.

2.- Fact still stands that most of your other post was biased-bullshit.

3.- He was talking about all role models, not just vg. And yes, those role models should be found in life, but NOT because its stupid to see it in a character...just because it would be nice for a change to see more “heroes” like the ones in fiction in our world, and don’t even think I'm talking about supernatural abilities or a flying man/girl in a cape.

4.- Who says worms with apples arent tasty? tongue grin

***********EDIT:***********You typed:

I am a bit disappointed that this developed into a Sonya vs Kitana thing, though, as it is pointless. Nobody here is saying that Kitana is perfect, but some characters simply have more going for them than others, and I don't think it is a biased opinion. I suspect Sonya fans are mad as Kitana is the main heroine while Sonya is not. Anyway, a Sonya fan who complains about Kitana's story or personality sounds like the proverbial bull who speaks about the donkey's horns.

You remind me of those little people who lurk around in the shadows saying stuff but dying to look unnoticed. Your simple edit still doesn’t surprise me, so I will just copy what I wrote above:

2.- Fact still stands that most of your other post was biased-bullshit. Maybe even all of it.

Exactly. There's a difference between wanting to prove that to herself for personal/whatever reasons, then wanting to “show it off” or prove it to everyone else to get attention.
*
*
That's right.

Well she was trying to prove it to somebody so that's probably where Xia got the idea of her wanting be a show off and stuff.


But she wasn’t trying to prove it to “show off” or “scream for attention”. And Xia just said he shows very little acknowledgment to the movies.

To QS(tb)

LOL!! Why does everyone hate her face? Ugh. Not every female has too look pretty and cute or whatever. I'm very content with the face they give Kira.

I like how at least one girl can look like a nasty bitch! Lol.


Lol, we know they don’t all need to look pretty, but, well, I'm sure if Kira would had been very ugly in her renders, bios, and ending pics, no one would be expecting her to look pretty or complain about her being ugly. That’s just the way she would be. Ugly.

But she was very pretty in all those other things, it was just her face that looked very messed up inside the game.
Avatar
QueenSindel(TheBitch)
02/26/2008 11:14 PM (UTC)
0
XIAHOUDUN

You and I will have to agree to disagree cuz this is getting repetitive.

But see, even YOU can point out distinct traits that Sonya carries and we've been discussing her many traits throughout this discussion so I don't know how you can stay certain about her having a flat personality.

Yes, she's a "tough chick," but that doesn't make her ordinary. Like I said, not every tough chick is good, or loyal, or passionate, or humorous, or whatever.

What seems you're unable to do here is give her any credit just cuz her role hasn't changed, yet you give the same-faced Kitana ALL this credit just cuz hers do.

Like Queve said, a change of role does not mean a change of personality. That's ridiculous and totally unverifiable I'm sure.

And of course you dismiss the films and cartoon and other outside media when defending Kitana because they are inconvenient to your argument, aren't they?

Why has Kitana always had the same personality in outside media? Isn't it quite clear that it's because that's how the makers view her?

Try using Shaolin Monks as a defense, will you? Well in case you didn't know, the MK Team did not make Shaolin Monks, hence why so many characters were portrayed differently. Are Liu and Kung that childish, for example? Yeah... So how reliable is that game?

...um, Unchained...when Kitana broke down over the stress she'd been feeling? Throughout MK:DA's Konquest, when we learn she was frustrated because her army could break Kano's defense....saddened by the loss of both Goro and Liu Kang...aggravated by Bo' Rai Cho's brand of humor.

How do these things show that she's any different from the average good girl?

Also you hate to admit that she's delicate, but isn't her reaction to Bo's personality canon proof of that? So there you go.

and I'll accept that maybe I wrote her off as something she isn't (even though she is still little more than the average tough chick

Is this you're way of admitting Sonya's personality isn't 1-dimensional?

but don't tell me Kitana has no personality because it isn't as in-your-face as you'd like it to be and you base your interpretation of Kitana on the word "princess" and how she's presented in some lame movies and cartoons.

Is Jade's personality "in-your-face"? So no, I don't think that's what Kitana needs in order to have a personality. What she needs is distinct traits and more than just the straightforward goody-goody attitude.

Like I said. Let's just agree to disagree regarding this personality stuff. I'm trying to state my opinions based on what I've seen, not what I want to believe, which is what you're doing. You want to believe that Kitana's personality is deeper and more versatile than Sonya's just because of her continuous changes while believing Sonya is one-faced just cuz her roles haven't really changed.

QUEVE...

Excellent points.

Role models like Sonya can also be viewed as inspiring rebels. Her, because she's an boldly emancipated woman.

Something role models can also do is give us ideas we never would have thought of which can lead us to doing things we never would have done.

Kitana’s personality is just too bounded with the beauty, formality, Edeninan Princess, and other things she and even you said, that it gives her the flatness she complains about, it just doesn’t give fans, the outside people (cartoons, movies, comics, etc.) and even the team itself as you saw (“Gifted with Beauty”/“Pretty Kick”) the opportunity to see all the other qualities. I think there's much more then just “pretty” and “beauty” in Kitana, you see it, I'm sure QS(tb) see’s it too, her point is just that its not well developed because its been predominant in her as well as the formality part as well.

Precisely. And if she has any traits, they need to be more developed so that she doesn't appear to have such a dully linear mentality all the time. And so for her image, if she's so strong and ever-changing, why is she always Ms. Beauty Queen? Even Li Mei who is new has been given a costume that reflects her new role. That's not Kitana's case.
Avatar
XiahouDun84
02/27/2008 02:58 AM (UTC)
0
queve Wrote:
What if someone considers *you* a role model
I'd be appalled and warn that person to cease and desist immediately....because there's no happy ending to that story.
queve Wrote:
I partially agree, because this is not the case with all characters. Because its not always that having a new/different role what gives a character a different personality that adapts to said roles or story."

True, it doesn't always apply...but that goes back to interpretation of the story. I'll give an example of a character's personality changing with their role: Luke Skywalker. As he grew from farmboy to rebel to Jedi hero, his personanlity changed from naive and adventure-seeking to wisened and reserved. I didn't mean to imply it's a massive change in personality, but it's there.

Kitana is, in essence, always Kitana...but her personality has developed with her story. This is important to remember because Kitana was the assassin before she was the princess. Sadly, people tend to forget that, as pointed out with the movies....and hence, why when Kitana is written off as just some flat princess character, I take issue and challenge that.


QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
Try using Shaolin Monks as a defense, will you? Well in case you didn't know, the MK Team did not make Shaolin Monks, hence why so many characters were portrayed differently. Are Liu and Kung that childish, for example? Yeah... So how reliable is that game?

XiahouDun84 Wrote:
But Shaolin Monks, like the movies and TV shows is bullshit...therefore invalid.


QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
And of course you dismiss the films and cartoon and other outside media when defending Kitana because they are inconvenient to your argument, aren't they?

Why has Kitana always had the same personality in outside media? Isn't it quite clear that it's because that's how the makers view her?

But the movies and outside media aren't made by the MK team either. And like I said, it's not like Kitana is the only character portrayed incorrectly in outside media. If we were discussing Shao Kahn, do you really think I would cite his portrayal in Annihilation as a bone-headed brute as proof of anything?


QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
Is this you're way of admitting Sonya's personality isn't 1-dimensional?

No. I simply acknowledged my assumption that Sonya is an unlikable bitch may not be accurate.


QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
Also you hate to admit that she's delicate, but isn't her reaction to Bo's personality canon proof of that? So there you go.

Ah ha...however, isn't this what you said over in the "Why don't you like Bo' Rai Cho?" thread:
QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
He's a repulsive fatso who can't be taken seriously because of his image.

So does this mean you're a delicate flower?


QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
But see, even YOU can point out distinct traits that Sonya carries and we've been discussing her many traits throughout this discussion so I don't know how you can stay certain about her having a flat personality.

Yes, she's a "tough chick," but that doesn't make her ordinary. Like I said, not every tough chick is good, or loyal, or passionate, or humorous, or whatever."

Exactly. Yawn.


QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
I'm trying to state my opinions based on what I've seen, not what I want to believe, which is what you're doing.

How boring.


But I suppose you're right. We will just have to agree to disagree. What you see as dull, rigid, and plain in Kitana...I see as melancoly, introverted, cool, and collected. And that's a personality I find appealing. What you see in Sonya...I've never denied her having personlity, I just don't think it's a fantastic and full of life as you make it out to be....I find boring.

One last question though: when has Sonya ever shown humor? It just occurred to me, when has Sonya ever displayed...in canon...this great sense of humor she's praised so much for? With the exception of a slight smirk, which really isn't indication of humor, I don't recall ever seeing her do anything humorous.
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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
02/27/2008 04:29 AM (UTC)
0
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
Kitana is, in essence, always Kitana...but her personality has developed with her story. This is important to remember because Kitana was the assassin before she was the princess.

But which of the personalities she's had outweighs the other?

Her assassin days are ancient, btw. Where are her personality changes now, especially now that her role is different? She's a military commander who still acts like the same "beautiful princess" she acted like a decade ago.

But the movies and outside media aren't made by the MK team either. And like I said, it's not like Kitana is the only character portrayed incorrectly in outside media. If we were discussing Shao Kahn, do you really think I would cite his portrayal in Annihilation as a bone-headed brute as proof of anything?

Oh yeah, now that I checked. I thought I read that Tobias or Boon wrote the scripts for the films though. Oh well, but still, characters are generally portrayed the same way most of the time.

Ah ha...however, isn't this what you said over in the "Why don't you like Bo' Rai Cho?" thread:
QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
He's a repulsive fatso who can't be taken seriously because of his image.

So does this mean you're a delicate flower?

Seriously... lmao.

As if there's a minority of people who find him repulsive and unserious or something. He's quite unpopular for those reasons, you know? But who's the only who stopped her training because of it?

Would I have stopped my training? I don't know I've never been trained by him, but when worlds you care about are falling apart, it shouldn't be too hard to stay motivated and focused. (And you call her determined?)

What you see as dull, rigid, and plain in Kitana...I see as melancoly, introverted, cool, and collected. And that's a personality I find appealing. What you see in Sonya...I've never denied her having personlity, I just don't think it's a fantastic and full of life as you make it out to be....I find boring.

Oh, so you've just been biased against Sonya this whole time? All of these posts just to say... "she's boring."

You should have just said that from the start and left it at that instead of turning this into another one of your Kitana rants.

One last question though: when has Sonya ever shown humor? It just occurred to me, when has Sonya ever displayed...in canon...this great sense of humor she's praised so much for? With the exception of a slight smirk, which really isn't indication of humor, I don't recall ever seeing her do anything humorous.

I don't know of any "canon" humor she's shown besides the sarcastic smirk. I just remember it well from the films and the toon which more-thoroughly showed the characters' behaviors and how they interact with others.
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Sub-Zero_7th
02/27/2008 04:49 AM (UTC)
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Sorry if I don't get to addressing some responses, but maybe I'll do that later.

I have to say that I don't think Sonya is trying to prove to be tough or anything like that. I also don't think that having role models is a bad thing unless you go too far into it. Ultimately, you need to be your own person.

Sonya is probably a two-dimensional character at best. That's better than that likes of Scorpion, Baraka, or Moloch. What I mean is, we know that Sonya is good and that she's tough, determined, etc. It's just that her traits of toughness, brashness, aggression, etc. all kind of go together in one side. We don't really get much else, and what's worse is that Sonya is still the same Sonya more or less. If she has evolved as a character, I'd like to know how. You see, this is why I'm in favor of something like having a rivarly with Kira. Sonya is a popular character and will likely return, so if she's going to return, they might as well do something to actually evolve her. Maybe there can even be something in which Kitana and Sonya learn from each other.

We can't really take the media portrayals of the characters too seriously even though I like what they did with Johnny Cage and Raiden. But characters like Scorpion get horrible treatment. Unfortunately, this has creeped into the games...*shudders*

Either way, I just don't see the depth in Sonya. She's a pretty straightforward character. Maybe if we got some insight into her, then she could be better.

To queve: What I meant was, while Sonya has her struggles against the criminal organizations, Kitana has her share of struggles too. There isn't anything too deep about Sonya's struggles with the organizations. The only thing that comes close, in a way, is her rivalry with Kano since Kano apparently killed her brother or financee or something like that. But even then, the rivalry is pretty underdeveloped. Bottom line here is that these organizations are the bad guys and she's trying to take them down. This is part of what I don't like about her struggle against the Tekunin. I would've preferred to have Cyrax be the protagonist in that little story.

Kitana, on the other hand, goes up against enemies like Mileena and Shao Kahn. With them, it means something more. When she tries to fight Shao Kahn's forces and take them down, she's trying to basically fight the very person who ruined her life. And for Mileena, she is the representation of Kitana's dark potential. There's actually something to the struggle between the two besides one being good and one being bad.

When looking back at Raiden's story, I have to say that I probably underrated it when I shouldn't have. As for Jax, even though the loose cannon thing is interesting, he still hasn't really "wowed" me. He still suffers from various problems. However, at least he's had some kind of character development/exploration. This is something Sonya lacks. So for her next-gen story, if she's going to return, character development and exploration are essential. Basically, I want to know why I should care about Sonya's character if she's going to be stagnant.

One thing I did like was in XiahouDun84's early MKA story where he had Sonya still under Onaga's control and had her embrace being bad. It showed something you probably wouldn't expect from a person like Sonya. Going back to the whole "rivalry with Kira" idea, this sort of aspect could be good for Sonya's character if this rivalry were to be set up. The reason why I say this is because Kira could be Sonya's antithesis, representing Sonya's dark potential as a cunning and ruthless bad girl free from believing in the law.

To QS(TB): I think that Kitana was being a little irritated, because she wanted to focus on training, especially considering the situation with the Deadly Alliance.
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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
02/27/2008 08:23 AM (UTC)
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Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
Sonya is probably a two-dimensional character at best. That's better than that likes of Scorpion, Baraka, or Moloch. What I mean is, we know that Sonya is good and that she's tough, determined, etc. It's just that her traits of toughness, brashness, aggression, etc. all kind of go together in one side.

What about her passionate heart? She'd sacrifice herself to save her friends. Who else in MK is known to be that passionately caring? Yeah, she's good, but to such extremes? That's highly distinctive of her and so deserves credit.

Her determination, groundedness, and authoritativeness are other traits that stand out. And she's not authoritative just because she's a "tough chick." Scorpion is a tough guy and he's not authoritative. Neither is Kira or Baraka -- other "tough" people with attitudes. Not all tough chicks or tough guys are known to take charge but Sonya is.

One thing I did like was in XiahouDun84's early MKA story where he had Sonya still under Onaga's control and had her embrace being bad. It showed something you probably wouldn't expect from a person like Sonya.

That directly contradicts her well-established caring nature. Yes, it's something we wouldn't expect.... because she'd never embrace being evil as long as she had an ounce of free will left to fight it with.

The rest of your post takes us back to what Warlady said. There's nothing to argue with that because everyone knows she's stale and needs major story development. No one here believes otherwise. That's why we're talking about personalities instead, which hers in particular (along with her moves, finishers, etc) makes up for her staleness. Hence her popularity despite the same role since day one.
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XiahouDun84
02/27/2008 04:03 PM (UTC)
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QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
Kitana is, in essence, always Kitana...but her personality has developed with her story. This is important to remember because Kitana was the assassin before she was the princess.

But which of the personalities she's had outweighs the other?
Her assassin days are ancient, btw. Where are her personality changes now, especially now that her role is different? She's a military commander who still acts like the same "beautiful princess" she acted like a decade ago.

This reminds of the all the times when Sub-Zero_7th and I would talk about how Sonya would be better if she developed or evolved and you thought we meant she can't be "tough" anymore. This is not what character developement is. It doesn't mean what the character was disappears forever like it never existed to begin with. It means the character is the same person they were....just more.

Kitana's story arc showed her rise from assassin to princess...so obviously, there's more emphasis on her being the "princess." But that doesn't mean the "assassin" went away or never existed to begin with.

Before the movies and TV shows came out, no one ever wrote Kitana off as the "beautiful princess." ThePredator151 said it best: She was a bad ass assassin who just happened to be royalty. Now she's become more the "princess" because that's the direction her story has gone. Would I like to see her become more assassin-like or maybe even something new if she continues? Absolutely, like I said, all characters should keep moving. But just because Kitana now is more the "princess" doesn't mean history is overwritten or the bad ass assassin still isn't in her.


QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
Oh yeah, now that I checked. I thought I read that Tobias or Boon wrote the scripts for the films though. Oh well, but still, characters are generally portrayed the same way most of the time.

I assume you're referring to IMDB and Boon & Tobias being listed under Writing credits.

That credit is because they created Mortal Kombat...not because they had anything to do with the writing of the script. If you don't believe me, look up Batman Begins. You'll note Bob Kane is listed under Writing credits. Bob Kane has been dead for almost ten years. It's a creator's credit.

Meanwhile over on Mortal Kombat: Annihilation, Tobias does get Story credit, along with two other guys, while another guy actually wrote the screenplay. Considering how Annihilation turned out and how inaccurate the characters were portrayed, Tobias' input didn't add much.


QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
So does this mean you're a delicate flower?
Seriously... lmao.
As if there's a minority of people who find him repulsive and unserious or something. He's quite unpopular for those reasons, you know? But who's the only who stopped her training because of it?
Would I have stopped my training? I don't know I've never been trained by him, but when worlds you care about are falling apart, it shouldn't be too hard to stay motivated and focused. (And you call her determined?)

No. I'm not talking about determination. You implied that Kitana being put off by Bo' Rai Cho's humor was proof that she's delicate in some way. You, and many other people, are also put off by Bo' Rai Cho's humor. Does that make you and everybody who doesn't find Bo' Rai Cho appealing delicate?


QueenSindel(TheBitch) Wrote:
Oh, so you've just been biased against Sonya this whole time? All of these posts just to say... "she's boring."

eh? At what point have I made my opinion of Sonya not clear?
XiahouDun84 Wrote:
Sonya is tough, yet caring. Like any other standard-issue "tough chick."

XiahouDun84 Wrote:
I think the more accurate thing to say is, while Sonya may be the typical "tough chick," you find that personality more appealing and likable. Fair enough. I don't. As said, Sonya never interested me because she's just another dime-a-dozen "tough chick"

XiahouDun84 Wrote:
Even all the stuff you and QueenSindel say about Sonya's personality and character I still don't see anything.

XiahouDun84 Wrote:
This is why Sonya Blade still doesn't impress me. She's still just the "tough chick." Obviously, not everyone has grown weary of this type of character, and God bless. But me, I need something more.

XiahouDun84 Wrote:
...even though she is still little more than the average tough chick...

Far as Sonya was concerned, my point was at this point I don't think the "tough chick" is all that impresive in itself anymore and why I feel Sonya has yet to surpass simply being the "tough chick."
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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
02/27/2008 06:49 PM (UTC)
0
Does that make you and everybody who doesn't find Bo' Rai Cho appealing delicate?

It depends. If his repulsiveness stops us from doing important things, then yes. Just cuz he's annoying and disgusting doesn't mean that I and other people who dislike him would be hindered by his type of behavior. So no, that doesn't necessarily mean we're delicate.

It doesn't make sense though. Someone who's seen blood, guts, torture, corpses, etc. throughout her life becomes hindered by some fatso who likes to fart and vomit? See, maybe her assassin-days strength truly has been overwritten, or is at least long gone.

I know you weren't speaking about determination. It still shows she's not "fiercely determined" as you said if she can't even focus on her training because she's too easily distracted and annoyed by his behavior.

It also validates how uptightly formal she likes to be couldn't just relax and laugh with him. Again, she seems very one-faced to me.

Far as Sonya was concerned, my point was at this point I don't think the "tough chick" is all that impresive in itself anymore and why I feel Sonya has yet to surpass simply being the "tough chick."

Yes, she's a tough chick. That doesn't change the fact that she's full of conspicuous passion and versatility. Regardless of any title some like to give her, she has a personality that is deeper and more defined than any other female.
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queve
02/27/2008 09:15 PM (UTC)
0
I don’t think I will be writing much more after this unless its absolutely necessary. Its all gotten repetitive already.

I already managed to validate all of my points and replied to statements that were either ridiculously biased, plain wrong, or just mistaken.

Not much more is left to do but accept *opinions* that arent thrown as facts like grown ups people.


Xia:

I'd be appalled and warn that person to cease and desist immediately....because there's no happy ending to that story.

I'm sorry to hear that. But that’s why I said:

“say, for being “truthfully passionate and creative about the arts”, or for being “serene, calculative and wise in certain things”, or for being “very informed about culture” or “trying to always be fair and just with people” or “always trying to get better” or “always being there for the ones who need you and making other people feel good, even if you aren’t feeling that good yourself”, etc.”

Still doesn’t make them weak.

Btw, I just noticed something. Is it OK if I ask you if you relate to Kitana in some way? I mean, do you find much of her in you?

But the movies and outside media aren't made by the MK team either. And like I said, it's not like Kitana is the only character portrayed incorrectly in outside media. If we were discussing Shao Kahn, do you really think I would cite his portrayal in Annihilation as a bone-headed brute as proof of anything?

I assume you're referring to IMDB and Boon & Tobias being listed under Writing credits.

That credit is because they created Mortal Kombat...not because they had anything to do with the writing of the script. If you don't believe me, look up Batman Begins. You'll note Bob Kane is listed under Writing credits. Bob Kane has been dead for almost ten years. It's a creator's credit.

Meanwhile over on Mortal Kombat: Annihilation, Tobias does get Story credit, along with two other guys, while another guy actually wrote the screenplay. Considering how Annihilation turned out and how inaccurate the characters were portrayed, Tobias' input didn't add much.


The problem is, Ed and John were *very involved* according to interviews. We might never really know how much, but they did say they gave opinions and approved the way characters were being portrayed and developed, etc. They were very happy. I remember in the EMG (spelling?) whatever Mag that John even stated they corrected some things and that the movie makers listened and took them out. And who of them was the one who said something along the lines: “The characters are exactly the way we always depicted them”?. I'm almost sure this was Ed.

They were heavily involved with the movies representation of characters.

One last question though: when has Sonya ever shown humor? It just occurred to me, when has Sonya ever displayed...in canon...this great sense of humor she's praised so much for? With the exception of a slight smirk, which really isn't indication of humor, I don't recall ever seeing her do anything humorous.

I know you don’t consider MKSM canon enough, but this surely counts either way: Her entire attitude after the Kano battle.

Aside from that we have her sexy smirk, and about unofficial stuff, just plenty of comics, movies, toons, etc.

Before the movies and TV shows came out, no one ever wrote Kitana off as the "beautiful princess." ThePredator151 said it best: She was a bad ass assassin who just happened to be royalty. Now she's become more the "princess" because that's the direction her story has gone. Would I like to see her become more assassin-like or maybe even something new if she continues? Absolutely, like I said, all characters should keep moving. But just because Kitana now is more the "princess" doesn't mean history is overwritten or the bad ass assassin still isn't in her.

But the movies, despite the characters being heavily influenced by the creators, didn’t really change that. Didn’t her role become more “the princess” then the “assassin” because that’s the direction her story *inside the game* went to? It all started with the end of Mk2, just look at her ending.

To QS(tb):

Oh! Before I forget, don’t worry, they are not getting lost. This used to happen a lot before though. wink Its just that I always like to write decent long responses, and I haven’t had the time to do that just yet. You know I'm like that. grin

Well in case you didn't know, the MK Team did not make Shaolin Monks, hence why so many characters were portrayed differently. Are Liu and Kung that childish, for example? Yeah... So how reliable is that game?

You are wrong here.

Tha main team didn’t “make” the game like that, but Shaolin Monks was heavily involved by main MKT members (Ed, Vogel, etc.), entirely and completely when it came to the cast, worlds and even the sad storyline despite having some others who were supposed to help them clear any mistakes. Just look at the interviews among other things.

Shaolin Monks might have some major crap in the sad storyline, but that doesn’t change the fact that the depiction of some characters, as sad as it was, had much to do with the teams view of them. For Kung Lao, just look at his horrible MKA ending. And all of this without even counting the interview videos about the game.

And I don’t think he was ever using MKSM as anything, he truly dismisses the game. And wasn’t Kitana being that angry and full of yourself and evil just because of the spell? After that, she was normal.

Oh yeah, now that I checked. I thought I read that Tobias or Boon wrote the scripts for the films though. Oh well, but still, characters are generally portrayed the same way most of the time.

I will just copy:

The problem is, Ed and John were *very involved* according to interviews. We might never really know how much, but they did say they gave opinions and approved the way characters were being portrayed and developed, etc. They were very happy. I remember in the EMG (spelling?) whatever Mag that John even stated they corrected some things and that the movie makers listened and took them out. And who of them was the one who said something along the lines: “The characters are exactly the way we always depicted them”?. I'm almost sure this was Ed.

They were heavily involved with the movies representation of characters.

I don't know of any "canon" humor she's shown besides the sarcastic smirk. I just remember it well from the films and the toon which more-thoroughly showed the characters' behaviors and how they interact with others.

Again: Her entire attitude after the MKSM Kano battle.

To Subby7th:

I will be writing soon buddy. smile

Sonya is probably a two-dimensional character at best. That's better than that likes of Scorpion, Baraka, or Moloch. We don't really get much else...

I just saw, QS(tb) said more of it for me.

You see, this is why I'm in favor of something like having a rivarly with Kira. Sonya is a popular character and will likely return, so if she's going to return, they might as well do something to actually evolve her.

It would be cool. I definitely agree Sonya needs some major development in her character that makes her inner self change a bit of course and direction. It would rock. I like the Kira possibility, but would rather see someone else. Kira sounds way too typical. Plus, it would be more interesting to have her with a male. She is always about kicking male butt rivals, lol.

What I meant was, while Sonya has her struggles against the criminal organizations, Kitana has her share of struggles too. There isn't anything too deep about Sonya's struggles with the organizations. The only thing that comes close, in a way, is her rivalry with Kano since Kano apparently killed her brother or financee or something like that. But even then, the rivalry is pretty underdeveloped. Bottom line here is that these organizations are the bad guys and she's trying to take them down. This is part of what I don't like about her struggle against the Tekunin. I would've preferred to have Cyrax be the protagonist in that little story. Kitana, on the other hand, goes up against enemies like Mileena and Shao Kahn. With them, it means something more. When she tries to fight Shao Kahn's forces and take them down, she's trying to basically fight the very person who ruined her life. And for Mileena, she is the representation of Kitana's dark potential. There's actually something to the struggle between the two besides one being good and one being bad.

But I never talked about Kitana’s struggles or underrated them or made any comparison about which of these two girls is better. Just to be clear.

And as much as you don’t see Kano’s thing as something else but vague, her war against this clans is more then just “good guy VS bad guy” considering the already established rivalry with Kano and his clan, which happens to be heavily linked with the other, who happened to be the one who infiltrated and destroyed her base, killed and placed in mortal danger her friends, etc. She is not trying to “take them down” just because. You are underrating her passionate hate towards these clans. Its not just there because. It became clear in MK4 that this was more like an obsession. They are her thorn. And even in her MKA bio you can sense that strong trace of hate and obsession when speaking of the danger the Tekunin can cause/is causing and the mysterious alignment from another world that is putting earth in danger again.

As for the Tekunin, I think you underrate the potential she has with it. I still remember the many threads (when Sektor’s role became known during MKTE) about fans who really wanted to see Sonya or Sub-Zero or both involved in this storyline of struggle, and I'm extremely happy they someway listened or just decided to do it like that because it was awesome. We not only finally got to see how Sonya and her overall team worked in this type of action, but also got the potentially (and probably something that will sadly remain unused) deep story of Jax somewhere around, that can do much wonders in the OIA, Sonya, etc. storyline.

Cyrax doesn’t have that sort of leader spark. I quite liked the way he was developed in MKDA with Nitara and would had liked to see something more interesting about that developed in MkA. Too bad he didn’t get any bio/story.

One thing I did like was in XiahouDun84's early MKA story where he had Sonya still under Onaga's control and had her embrace being bad. It showed something you probably wouldn't expect from a person like Sonya. Going back to the whole "rivalry with Kira" idea, this sort of aspect could be good for Sonya's character if this rivalry were to be set up. The reason why I say this is because Kira could be Sonya's antithesis, representing Sonya's dark potential as a cunning and ruthless bad girl free from believing in the law.

I like the idea of Kira, but would prefer someone else. As for Sonya embracing evil, I agree with QS(tb), this doesn’t sound right for her, even if unexpected, unless there is a part of her fighting to stop those thoughts wining over her soul.

And even if that happened I can see Warlady finding some excuse to burn Sonya for being a witch. I mean, after the lame thong/strippers insult part among almost all her other post, anything is possible when being biased.

***To QS(tb):

Sub-Zero_7th Wrote:
Sonya is probably a two-dimensional character at best. That's better than that likes of Scorpion, Baraka, or Moloch. What I mean is, we know that Sonya is good and that she's tough, determined, etc. It's just that her traits of toughness, brashness, aggression, etc. all kind of go together in one side.

What about her passionate heart? She'd sacrifice herself to save her friends. Who else in MK is known to be that passionately caring? Yeah, she's good, but to such extremes? That's highly distinctive of her and so deserves credit.

Her determination, groundedness, and authoritativeness are other traits that stand out. And she's not authoritative just because she's a "tough chick." Scorpion is a tough guy and he's not authoritative. Neither is Kira or Baraka -- other "tough" people with attitudes. Not all tough chicks or tough guys are known to take charge but Sonya is.


Exactly. Well said.

There's nothing to argue with that because everyone knows she's stale and needs major story development. No one here believes otherwise. That's why we're talking about personalities instead, which hers in particular (along with her moves, finishers, etc) makes up for her staleness. Hence her popularity despite the same role since day one.

See, that’s were I think some underrate her potential. Her story is “stale” in the way that its been too heavily linked with the bd clan, but its not as stale or worse then many others. In fact, her story maintains a very strong position inside the overall story of the game, and her role has been important in the development of the known criminal wars and invasions, etc.

What she needs, is something new that develops her role in a different direction. I 100% agree.
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QueenSindel(TheBitch)
02/27/2008 10:37 PM (UTC)
0
queve Wrote:
Oh! Before I forget, don’t worry, they are not getting lost. This used to happen a lot before though. wink Its just that I always like to write decent long responses, and I haven’t had the time to do that just yet. You know I'm like that.

Yay... *claps*

That's good to hear. Lol.

“The characters are exactly the way we always depicted them”?. I'm almost sure this was Ed.

Makes sense since they're usually portrayed the same way.

Again: Her entire attitude after the MKSM Kano battle.

Sadly, I don't remember that scene.

And even if that happened I can see Warlady finding some excuse to burn Sonya for being a witch.

Lol! Very very lol. I get that impression too.

What she needs, is something new that develops her role in a different direction. I 100% agree.

Yeah. For example, Johnny had the same role up until MKA. I love the new role he has now. I would like Sonya to go through a similar process.

It's her direction that needs to change. She can still hunt bad guys but she needs to do it from a new position, new perspective, a new approach.

I don't know. For some reason I like the idea of her getting lost by herself in a foreign realm. Lots of different story arcs can stem from that, imo. Besides no one before has gotten seriously lost somewhere, have they? If not, then that would work great for her. She can return to earth bigger and better with new relationships, new conflicts, new knowledge, more strength, etc.
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Sub-Zero_7th
02/27/2008 11:21 PM (UTC)
0
To QS(TB): Yes, she's passionate and determined, and her aggression goes along with all that.

Sonya doesn't exactly need a role change. What she needs is evolution of her character. That's what makes her stagnant.

And again, about the Bo' Rai Cho stuff, I think it's just that she was disgusted by his seeming lack of manners and simply wanted to train in order to take the Deadly Alliance down.

About Johnny Cage, it's not just the role. The issue with Johnny Cage aside from his previously shallow story is his lack of character development and exploration, something that Sonya suffers from. But at least Sonya has a more prominent and important story than Johnny Cage did.

To queve: I hope to hear from you soon. I've been trying to check my e-mail, and I look forward to your message. Now getting into the topic...

You bring up a point about Sonya always kicking male butt or something along those lines. Well, with that said, it makes a rivalry with Kira even better, because it would be a change from the enemies she's been up against before. This time, there'd be a female enemy that she has to go up against, one whose skill and cunning could prove to be quite formidable. This could lead to Sonya becoming wiser and more evolved as a character. So when we get to the end of that rivalry, the story has come full circle with Sonya overcoming Kira.

Yes, Sonya hates those criminal organizations and is determined to take them down. But the same can be said about Kitana wanting to take down Shao Kahn or even the Deadly Alliance. Sonya's struggle against the Tekunin doesn't have a sense of it being so personal unless you bring Jax into the mix. And quite frankly, I'm not interested in wanting Jax return. But even if both Sonya and Jax were to return and have a conflict, there still needs to be a progression of Sonya's character.

I'm not saying that Cyrax should be a leader. I was suggesting the idea of Cyrax being the protagonist in the Tekunin conflict or maybe have him and Sub-Zero ally with each other to fight them.

Going back to Sonya, what I was trying to say is that with X's story of her still being under Onaga's control, she felt "free", seeing the futility of fighting evil. However, she does become good after being freed from the control. The thing with her story is that she fights threat after threat. The issue lies more within her character development being non-existent.
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