I was never talking about anything other than MK3 and UMK3 when it came to Shang Tsung, but a lot of the techniques playing against a morpher can be used in both games. Shang has good normals in MK2, a fast sweep, good anti air HK, good uppercut, but in that game, the tiers aren't as defined other than Jax and Mileena.

MK1-kano
MK2-Reptile
MK3-sheeva
MK4-jax and sonya
MK:DA-kitana,li'mei,nitara,I don't hate frost but unmask frost I hate that shit .I like the mask on frost better and the hair need to be long.change the freeving ass lip. I can not stand that shit on frost I know that she pretty ass a bitch she is.

MK - Johnny Cage
MK2 - Shang Tsung
MK3 - Jax
UMK3 - Jax
MKT - Johnny Cage
MK4 - Shinnok
MK:DA - Mavado

I never learned to play good as Nightwolf but he was probably my toughest non-boss opponent.

MK2KungBroken Wrote: I was never talking about anything other than MK3 and UMK3 when it came to Shang Tsung, but a lot of the techniques playing against a morpher can be used in both games. Shang has good normals in MK2, a fast sweep, good anti air HK, good uppercut, but in that game, the tiers aren't as defined other than Jax and Mileena.

Well that's why I mentioned a second time that I was talking about MK2 Shang mostly. While I didn't find anything wrong with Shang in any game, I didn't play with him enough in MK3/UMK3 to confirm that he was as good as in MK2.

Shang rocks in MK2.

Kai, as much as I love playing as him, was sub-par in MK4. He had interesting moves, but they only went so far. Most people can beat him with the rest of the Kombatants with relative ease. It's sad, but true.

As for Hsu Hao, he just sucked. The Kahn Klap is just slow enough to tip people off, and his Cyrus stomp is not only slow, but even if you hit your opponent gets an open shot at ya. As for styles, only Shuai Chiao is of any worth, and that's only really for its leg sweeps and easy style branches. Wrestling doesn't have but one combo, and no good moves excepting the throws, but even those aren't anything useful when you have his normal throw(which is actually pretty good). The Sun Moon is a decent style, but other than his Edge Stab move and his Setting Sun combo, it doesn't compare with other styles. Even Kano's better, despite having the same weapon style.

if we're going by tier lists, they're not the weakest. if we're going by personal opinion, you're just not that good with them.

hmm funny but Hsu Hao is one of my most powerful fighter in MKDA, his grab and stomp combination is really damaging, his fighting styles doesn't have a lot of variety but are effective

RasAlGhul Wrote: hmm funny but Hsu Hao is one of my most powerful fighter in MKDA, his grab and stomp combination is really damaging, his fighting styles doesn't have a lot of variety but are effective

Yea, he definitely wasn't weak in the strength department. Kitana was the only real lacking characer along with Mavado.

There really isn't any definite "Weakest" character.
It all really depends on who's using them and how. Some say Ermac is really powerful if you know who to use him. I apparently didn't cause I was garbage with him. Others say Kitana is really weak in MK:DA, but I was great with her. It's all personal tastes and opinion.

Tiers don't have anything to do with any one person's ability to use a character. Just because someone is really good with an obscure character in X game doesn't make that character strong, it makes the person using that character strong. But even in this case, there are exceptions to it where it's just not possible for a non top tier character to beat a top tier character, that would be in a situation where the person using the top tier character is just a better player overall, even if they don't have to use a complete amount of effort to win. Sometimes the odds are just too great. My example of the weakest in UMK3 was Shang Tsung and Sheeva. They are two characters which it would require an insane amount of effort to beat even the weakest Kabal player. The best Shang Tsung player in the world is not going to beat the best Kabal, that's where tier comes into play.

Matt

Shang Tsung the weakest? Nah. I'm actually pretty fobd of his fireballs and basic combos.

Oh, and in UMK3, Kabal's combos make him weak. Why he was toned down is beyond me.

But here is a pretty effective combo for him.

Ground Blade, Dash, Ground Blade, LK,LK,HP,HP,HK,HK,B+HK. 9 Hits, 40% damage.

The dash is blockable after the ground blade, and the second ground blade is not possible to do in UMK3, in any situation. You need to play against human opponents to understand the tier listing. The computer is better than everyone with any character based on normals alone. If you got that combo on MK3, why not do his pop up to air fireball which would be 62% instead? More important than his ground combos would be the juggles you can get off a spin in air, HP, HP, JK, air fireball, 42%.

Kabal is the most powerful character in the game, even dropping his basic combo damage a bit in UMK3 wasn't enough, and even adding some start up time to his dash in the Wavenet version wasn't enough either. The spin's too fast and it's collision box is too big. The only thing that doesn't make it as broken as Noob's Disabler is that it is punishable. The fact you can spin people in air is absurd. It should just knock them across the screen the other way like a roundhouse (not do damage) or just make them fall out of the air like Motaro does when you spin him.

Matt

MK1: Kano
MK2: JAX
MK3: JAX
MK4: JAX
MK5: JAX

I don't know about Kabal being 'too strong' , in MK3 maybe, but a good Sub-Zero player could beat a good Kabal player because in MK3 the ice clone didn't dissapear if it was block.

The key word against Kabal is 'block', if you block and capitalize on mistakes he can be beaten but I do agree about him being top tier however.

I don't know about Kabal being 'too strong' , in MK3 maybe, but a good Sub-Zero player could beat a good Kabal player because in MK3 the ice clone didn't dissapear if it was block.

The key word against Kabal is 'block', if you block and capitalize on mistakes he can be beaten but I do agree about him being top tier however.

I don't know about Kabal being 'too strong' , in MK3 maybe, but a good Sub-Zero player could beat a good Kabal player because in MK3 the ice clone didn't dissapear if it was block.

The key word against Kabal is 'block', if you block and capitalize on mistakes he can be beaten but I do agree about him being top tier however.

Wow triple post, anyway, in UMK3 Kabal owns. Sub-zero was good in MK3 because of the massively broken iceclone yes, but in UMK3,
100% Kabal > 100% Sub-zero.

Matt

MK2KungBroken Wrote: Was the point of this thread to find out who the actual weakest characters were in each game? As in specifically the least powerful in terms of gameplay? Or was it just who each of us thinks is bad? Because I know a lot of people hate Nightwolf and Stryker and they will say they are the weakest, but in reality they are two devastating characters. Nightwolf is ranked very high and it's mostly because of the lock down with the shoulder tackle, and then change ups to his autocombo. Throw 2 or 3 tackles that get blocked, then run in with an autocombo when they go to duck another tackle and they are practically dead. Stryker has so many different things about him that can do damage and are useful. Two different heights for the bombs is great, the riot gun is one of the fastest attacks in the game, he has a semi infinite with his pop up combo and the gun, a corner infinite, and a relaunch infinite on a good number of characters. The baton dash is great anit air and can be used almost like Kabal's dash and does high damage. He also can duck and block Nightwolf's tackle and not get hit by it, and not everyone can run jab him, but in turn, he can't run jab many characters either. That is just a way of explaining why two generally hated characters based on appearance are ironically really good characters. Let me know what the real point was. Matt

My real point was too objectively figure out who the weakest in each game was based on tiers and such. I know you don't like doing 1.2.3.4. rankings, but do you think you could whip one up for Mortal Kombat 1, since there are only 7 characters?

I really didn't play MK1 enough to know an exact tier listing, but I have heard something like this:

Johnny Cage
Sonya
Scorpion
Sub-zero
Raiden
Liu Kang
Kano

(Mind you this might be way off and perhaps someone who knows MK1 can give a tier list with REASONS why they are where they are and not just "I like his outfit")

Matt

My two cents...

MK1 - Liu Kang
MK2 - Raiden
MK3 - Uh...Sheeva?
MK4 - None
MKDA - Kitana

MK2KungBroken Wrote: Shang is considered bottom of the barrel in MK3 and especially UMK3 according to official tier lists.

Someone show me these official tier lists please.

about MK1:(the order is from stronger to weaker)


1- Sub-Zero: his ice have the superiority over Scorpion's spear if they are throw at the same time, and the slide is great for combos and is a garanteed hit (unlike scorpion teleport who doesn't always work if you are close to a wall for example) he have great jump kicks

2-Cage: great jump kicks and the BEST jump punches in the game, a skill player can beat the computer only by using this jump punching strategy
in a close distance, the shadow kick is good for combos and the nut punch does a lot of damage(except if you fight Sonya or Cage)

3- Scorpion: the spear does a bit of damage unlike sub-zero's ice and he is an unpredictable fighter if you know how to use him, great jump kicks as well

4- Rayden: his teleport doesn't always work the way we want, but it's hard to jump over his lighting bolt, the torpedo can make him vulnerable but if it connects you are in a good position(with your opponent against the corner)he probably have the third best jumping punches in the game after Cage and Kano


5- Sonya: good jump kicks, her leg grab is devastating if use in a combo(after a jump kick for example) but we can see it come from a mile away and it make her vulnerable, same thing for her square wave punch, useful if you use it well but it will cost you the match if you miss. Her leg grab is really damaging(more then Kano cannonball for example)
6- Kano: good jump kicks and the second best jump punches in the game(after Cage), but his cannonball is hard to execute(it should have been easier like b-f low punch, instead of a full circle) and if someone blocks it, it let Kano vulnerable for multi-combos(particularly if he face Cage he open himself for a triple jumping punch combo) However the cannonball do have a superiority over every other non-projectile moves, and his knife toss allow him to block while throwing them.

7- Liu Kang: personnally he is my weakest fighter but a few people are really effective with him. It's hard to jump over his fireballs, his jump kicks doesn't always connect, but if it does you can combine them with a flying kick and that do a lot of damage.


But overall MK1 is well balanced,

Somehow I don't think that was an entirely objective ranking of MK1...

Accurate Objective MKT Tiers (posted in another thread by me)

Top Tier:
Noob Saibot, Kabal, MK2 Kung Lao, Human Smoke, Nightwolf, Baraka, Ermac, Robot Smoke, Rain, MK3 Kano, MK3 Jax

Mid Tier:
MK3 Kung Lao, MK2 Raiden, Sonya, Sindel, Kitana, Classic Sub, Liu Kang, Unmasked Sub, Scorpion, Stryker, Reptile, Cyrax, Jade, MK2 Jax

Bottom Tier:
Sektor, Johnny Cage, MK1 Kano, MK1 Raiden, Sheeva, Mileena, Shang Tsung

Matt

Sonya was TOP TIER in Mk1 and MkdA

toxicvirus Wrote: Sonya was TOP TIER in Mk1 and MkdA

why in MK1? her leg grab could only be done from close distance(it had the range of the nut punch) was both blockable and easy to avoid if we anticipate it, the ring toss was easy to jump on and the square wave was more or less useful, because it didn,t have absolute air priority.

I'm trying to be objective, throw me some arguments to disagree with my list

Sonya's leg grab has AMAZING range in MK1, I don't know what version you've been playing, but arcade, the leg grab is top tier. And her sweep is unpunishable.

Matt