And one more thing...Yes Namco,Sega,Capcom or in it for the money, but they make a deep game with tons of replay value and diverse characters who normally have nothing in common besides the basics (throws,reversals,jabs,frame advantage). So using the MK name as something to lean on and get money from without really adding anything new to the whole fighting scene will really just lose a lot of respect from the fans, but I doubt Midway cares.

well said Vers...very mature of you. I don't have a problem with you ok? The thing is that I have a job to do, and you IM me more than anyone else during business hours.Some of the work I do is very tedious and time consuming (level layout, game play documents) it requires "getting in the zone" this is extremely hard to do when you are being IM'd constantly. Plus the lead of my team is coming to my office more and more as crunch time ramps up. It just doesnt look good. When Psi Ops is over I will have plenty of time to talk about games. this is a scenario that I have experienced many times before with friends and lovers. I just need my space. I barely hang out with my friends as is. I hope you understand...I should be free to talk next weekend, I have to work today.

http://gametrailers.com/

I helped capture the footage of this trailer
that is actual gameplay of me playing the game
let me know what you guys think...

I'm really liking it. The animation is smooth and the effects look polished. The footage was based on really short clips so it's hard for me to judge much though I tend to like games in this genre and hopefully it delivers. In your opinion, Ray, what's the better buy? PS2 or XBOX? Does either controller lend itself better to the game? What's the percentage complete as of now? Will there be any more vast alterations or implementations before release? Sorry for all the questions. Just curious. Wanting to get into the industry myself and getting to talk to a designer brings out the little kid in me.

Now, THAT'S the shizzle I've been waiting to see. Looking good, dude. Those physics look like they'll be fun as hell to play with . One Q, though. Was the cinematic in the beginning of the trailer, in game?

One crit, though...when you took over that dudes mind and made him jump down the hole. The execution was kinda shoddy, it could have been locked down a little better . J/K. Though, that dude, getting tossed through the crate...that shit was top tier.

Knowing the final secret would make it better!

If theres still only 1 fatality, then when it says finish him/her, if you do a normal move it knocks off the limb it hits for a semi-fatality. destructable environments like in DOA3. SMOKE!

OK, I'm not reading all the posts so sorry if I repeat some stuff.

Here is what I have in mind. Most of my ideas are complex and I posted them in the MK6 ideas thread. I have a lot more than this.

Sorry for it being so long.

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All combos must be escapable in a variety of ways.
Parry, Evasion, Reversal, Counter, Block.

There should be style oriented blocking for every style, Right foot forward, or Left foot forward, also facing away.

Very realistic, and specifically programmed blocks to individual attack.

Note: You should block low attacks with your feet, no crouching blocks.

Have the fighters take a step back for necessary blocks. NOT have them just slide back.

You would be able to move around at normal speed while holding the block button. 8 Way movement, and Defence animations would change depending on the attack, and the direction you are moving in.

There could be special block, or evasion animations, for like a sweep, you would do a back flip.

The Defence animations could be used as openers for counter attacks.

Look at Akira's high Reversal in VF4. He slaps the opponents hand then throws an elbow attack.

Well, in VF2 to do that same reversal you had to tap Block, then >and p.

Also look at Steve Fox in Tekken 4 his counter is like this. Tap RP,> then tap LP.

MKDA could do this in the same manner. Maybe tap Block to parry, then press any attack button, to do certain attacks.

These attacks could be combo starters.
-------------------------------------------------
Another idea, is to combine 2 or more hand to hand styles in to 1 hybrid style, so you have one hand style, and one weapon style. It would depend on the fighters story.

I think this would be better.

Also, make the fighting arsenals very intricate, more moves than in VF4, Tekken4, SC2. Beat them at their own game.

If you use just frame moves, make it doable so it's not frustrating. Give the player at least 3 frames to react in.
-------------------------------------------------

Hit counters

I have 3 examples for you.
In the MK movie the first one when Liu Kang fights Sub Zero. Liu Kang does a side kick, sub zero takes the hit, and links the falling back animation to a back flip, nailing Liu kang in the Jaw.

And in the movie Fist of Legend. When Jet li fights his girls uncle. The uncle does a hook, Jet li is air born, spinning like a top, then while still in the air, punches the uncle in the chest, then lands on his feet.

Third example in the same movie. When he fights his friend. His friend, does a sweep, trips jet li. Jet flipped up side down, and kick the guy in the neck.


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The ring outs would be stage fatalities.
But like in SC2 it would be kind of hard to knock someone out of the stage, unless you used a pop up move. Because the VF4 style ring outs are way too easy. The longer the fights last, the more I like them. Don't use the force fields, be more creative and use walls or People as barriers.

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You could instead use a NEW version of the Juggle to be different. Instead of having the opponent bouncing like a volley ball, have them wobble while standing on the ground like they are dizzy.

It would be the same as a juggle, just look more realistic, and be original to MK.

Also like in SC2 you would be able to get out of a ground juggle by holding the direction pad in any direction, causing your character to stumble in any direction. It gives you a chance to get out of major punishment.

If you do pop your opponent in to the air, you would only be able to land 1 arial hit.

--------------------------------------------------

Realistic , and complete arsenal

Throws
Regular attacks.
Retreating attacks Attack while hopping away.
Side step attacks
ground attacks
Retaliation attacks = Throw an attack while in your hit animation.
Ground attacks
Defence animation linker attacks. It would be like tapping kick while standing up in Tekken.
etc.

Instead of just having a side step, make the characters do a cool evasion animation, depending on the attack. The fancy animation would link to an attack.

Just watch a bunch of Kung fu movies, and use everyting.

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I would like to see a semy restricted custom combo system, You would be able to link attacks that would chain in real life. If an attack doesn't flow smoothly it will take longer to link. "Note Realism"

A lot of the combos in MKDA and every 3D fighting game are impossible, or impractical. You don't need huge combos, Max 2-7 attacks is good. Remember Every combo needs a variety of escape options. The only time a combo would be unblockable is if your character is Dizzy, or if it connects as a counter.

Have it so you need special timing for linking moves, so you get rid of button mashing. Not impossible timing. Some combos will change depending on the timing, a different move may come out.

For extra complexity, you could have it so if you get a jumping spin kick blocked, you will either stumble, or fall down.

When stumbling, you could tap block fast, so you don't fall down.

--------------------------------------------------

You should be able to chain special moves to combos, like in MK4, or have special energy moves for finishing combos, like extreme combo enders but restricted like a super move in street fighter.

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You should be able to attack opponents when they are on the ground, like in Tekken, and VF. No super high jumps for down attacks like in VF4, it looks rediculous. Use Realistic attacks, and a lot of them.

You should be able to side step in the middle of a combo, if you are blocking. You need special timing.

There need to be close ups, and dynamic camera work when you connect with certain moves, or throws. Like in Tekken 4 or in the movies.

Most characters should have a parry like tap Block when your opponent attacks, then you can link an attack to the defence animation.

Your opponent could only get out of this by doing a side step, reversal, or a parry of their own.

If you got to do this back and forth a few times, it would look just like a kung fu movie.

Similar to SC2, but much more realistic.

--------------------------------------------------

There should be submission holds, or locks. Like when you locked swords in Samurai Show down, you would both be struggling, and whoever mashes the buttons faster would win, and go into their own lock, or a throw.

There should be throw escapes, and throw reversals.

The throws should be really fancy and can be a regular throw, or a quick combo.

There should also be weapon throws, like in Soul Calibur.

Fansy!!!! Make the crowd go Daaaaaaaaaaaamn when they see it happen.

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When you are attacked near a wall, and you spray blood, the wall should be stained, like the floor, and blood should run down too.

--------------------------------------------------

Characters need awesome stand up animations, like in Devil May Cry 2.

Fighting stances need variety to look realistic.

Have it so when far from your opponent, your fighter will relax a bit, and lower their arms, and have a relaxed walking animation (8 Way)

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You could also use the stage as a weapon, similar to power stone, but like for example. In Iron Monkey, there is a scene where the main bad guy, kicks some floor tiles on the ground, and they go flying towards the opponent.

You could even kick a chair to your opponent.

An automatic block animation would be like your character kicks the flying object, and destroys it.

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Raiden's lightning should look like real lightning, and should shoot sparks, it if hits the wall.
He should also have his Superman move back, and it should go all the way across a stage, and if it slams you against a breakable wall, you should go through it, to the next room.

Raiden would be the only character to do air juggles, because he can move super fast. It would be like in the One, with Jet lee, when he is attacking the cops, and they are floating in the air.

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There could be hit counters. Like if you get hit, your hit animation can link to an attack.

For example the fight scene with Liu kang VS Sub Zero in the MK1 movie.
Liu kang kicked Sub in the chest, and while sub Zero was falling back, he did a back flip, and nailed Liu kang right in the Jaw.


Now an example from MKDA. Lets say Scorpion does his (1) punch in Hapkido and hits Sonya. The second the move connects, the Sonya player would tap the same button= (1) and she would do something like a back hook kick, and stay standing, or do the kick, while falling down.

It would work the same as the throw escapes in Tekken4.

This is especially useful if you know how your opponents combo ends.

Using this same technique, some of the moves could work like rock, paper, scissors. If you press a certain attack when your opponent does some other specific attack you would be able to counter them, and break combos.

You might kick their leg, and make them stumble.

--------------------------------------------------

A much more complex combo system. Mix VF4, SC2, and BR3. Have many ways to create combos. Take a good hint from SC2.

Linking stances to combos is awesome. I'm talking about different stances in the same martial art. Like Ivy, or yung sung.

Add a more complex reversal system, be able to reverse a reversal this can look awesome.

Change the commands of special moves, so they don't come out by accident. No charging moves They hold you back in crusial situations.

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I want to see a lot of fancy moves like the ones you see in extreme kicks competitions. You can find movies of these competitions, you should check some out, they are amazing.

To be able to knock your opponent out. On the final blow, you would have to connect with a strong hit. So if you jab someone in the leg, you would not be able to knock them out.

It bothers me to just jab my opponent, and they fall over, it looks so fake.

The falling animations for the last hit, or after missing a fatality. They should collapse, not fall over like boards. The MK3 falling over (timberrrrrrrr) It looks bad.

-------------------------------------------------

Struggle moves.

Like for when you do a reversal, and you counter the reversal. Both characters can be stuck in a strenuous pose, like in a match of strength, "Remember Samurai Showdown" Depending on who is winning.

One of the characters would be thrown, slammed, stumble back, or they would go in to a different pose. if it's a tie, they would just break up.

Almost like throw chains and reversals going back and forth.

The camera could zoom in to their faces and hands when they are doing the match of strength.

It could be done like the Test your might, just tap the buttons fast. You could also do special combinations to try and win the match, like a change up move, so it isn't just pressing the buttons fast.

-----------------------------------------------

A suggestion for designing game play is to
sit and watch a kung fu movie with a controller in your hand and pretend that you are playing the movie like a game.

I have done this, and it really helps to open your mind to a ton of ideas on how to make the controls.
------------------------------------------------

The custom combo system could work with a combo meter, or a fatigue meter that only lets you link so many moves together smoothly.

Instead of 3 attacks per button, you could have 5, to 9, then do a combo like this.

2,F3,B3,D4,3. Link every individual attack manually, there can be a few pre set combos.

But only moves that would flow together in real life would be able to be linked fast. Slow moves you would be able to escape, or counter easily.

You should have the motion capture people act the combos out, and see what moves flow, and which don't.

Like Jonny Cage's Double flip kick, looks bad. Sorry but it does.

You could set the combos up with a tree branch system.

move 1 links to 2,4,8,1
Move 2 links to 5,4,9,6
Do this for every single move.

Even for ground attacks, and low attacks.

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You need multi tired stages, like DOA2, not DOA3, falling from a roof top is too fake. Keep is semy realistic.

You should be able to slam through a wall to another stage.

Take out crouching completely, no body uses the crouch. It is completely useless. Also you don't see it in movies. If you do have crouching, it would only be an automatic block animation. You could link Stand up attacks to the crouch evasion like in every other game.

Multiple throw reversals back and forth, like in the movie with Jet lee called Fist of Legend, the fight with the blind folds.

--------------------------------------------------
Fancy Reversals

Check out the Reversals Pai has in VF4. the forward + pk, and down forward + pk. Very cool and fancy looking. I think reversals like that are a must.

Some of those reversals could be combo starters.

------------------------------------------------
Off wall attacks.

There could also be off wall combos, and running combos.

--------------------------------------------------

A big thing in kung fu movies is attacks going back and forth like block, attack, block, attach.....

This would be very satisfying to watch in game. If you could have the block work like a parry, similar to the parry in Street Fighter 3 3rd strike, there could be a couple frames after you block an attack, in which you could press punch, or kick to do a pre set counter move, depending on what block animation was used.

The counter attack should be at least a stun hit, or a 2 hit combo, to give you time to recognize the move and be able to link something to it.

A counter animation (combo starter) could be like Jan Lees 2 kick stun counter in Dead or Alive 3. I think it is a med. punch counter he does two Round house slap kicks, then the opponent is stunned, open for attack.

To add to the kung fu movie look, make it so if you counter your opponents attack, then attack, your opponent can counter it and retaliate the same way if they (tap back) in time. Then the fighters can go back and forth like this.

There could be a slight pause or loud sound when you parry an attack, so you recognize it more easily, and so you have time to react to it.

------------------------------------------------

For moves that you can't get out of, like the combos, and throws, have the camera go in to some movie style camera shots, close ups, worms eye view, birds eye view.

Make it look dramatic.

For a neck breaker, for example, zoom in to the characters face, so only the bust fits on screen, then maybe zoom in to the attackers eyes, before they break the opponents neck.

For combos, you could zoom in so just the torso, down to the knees fits on screen.

Very movie like.

Shots should also vary, don't always have the same camera shot for the same combo, if you can, mix it up keep it random.

--------------------------------------------------

How about using the pressure sensitive buttons to control the speed of walking/running, the strength of an attack, or change an attack.


Maybe you could link combos if you press a button hard, or soft. They have that feature available, why not make use of it.

--------------------------------------------------

Make the computer learn from it's mistakes, and adjust to an individual players fighting style, that would be great too. It would simulate playing with a real person.

----------------------------------------------

Have throws change animations when close to the wall, like in DOA3.

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Extra stances, and animations.

For example you could press kick, and your fighter throws a round house, but if you hold the button down, he/she could do an extra spin after wards, that could link to another kick, a sweep, or a flip kick. So you don't need an extra fighting stance always, jus an extra animation to link from.



By the way, I might be getting a job as a Character Modeler at Midway. I took the art test, and they liked it, I just have to see if they are going to hire me.


I'm hoping.

That has got to be the best post I've read in this entire thread..EXCELLENT job Bleed. I truly hope if you get on the team you can do more than be a modeler...truly excellent bro.

One thing that is going to be difficult for Midway is to make custom combos with a system like this. I really dont have a problem with simple stance change and branch combos, but I believe there should be other combo options as well. I'm not going to bother putting ideas up since I think bleed pretty much covered that, but Id like to talk about a few other things.

I really don't like how Sub-Zero uses Shotokan in MKDA. He seems stiff and robotic. I think he should be a lot looser and a lot more..Shotokan like. Quicker movement and more "WOW" in his attacks.

Jeet Kune Do was done VERY WELL stance form wise, but I believe the attacks should be more forceish. Maybe it's the sound effects or something, but I always thought of JKD being something more like Jann lee in DOA3 or Marshall Law in Tekken 4. A flashy, damagine stance with a balnce of everything. Perhaps I just wasn't seeing it in MKDA.

Tae Kwon Do in MKDA...far too simple. Look at Sarah in VF4 or Hwoarang in T4...look how much DEPTH is put into their movement and attacks. Sonya felt stiff and her TKD was way too basic. I hope in MK6 a character like Sub-Zero or perhaps Li Mei has TKD..it just seems to suit them better. I think Sonya should have simpler stances.

Muay Thai is really weird in MKDA to me. I always thought that Muay Thai was not about combos, but about single..POWERFUL strikes that take off chunks of your bar. I hope in MK6 Jax's damage comes from these power strikes and not from 50 hit broken combos.

As someone else stated earlier in this topic..every stance in MK6 should have a meaning. I believe when serious developement time rolls around for MK6 that everyone should sit down and discuss each stance indivisually and come up with a basic goal. I am pretty sure in MKDA everyone just made some stances and gave them some combos because if you really look at it besides they way they move all the characters play the same way. The only difference is whether their stuff is fast enough,powerful enough and safe enough. No character has something that sets them apart from everyone else. I believe this should be worked on for MK6. Also, the team should work on balancing the stances out so everything has a use unlike in MKDA.

Other than stances I also believe every character should have a theme. Whether it's reversals,parries,throws,movement,mix ups,etc....Jax should be the polar opposite of say Scorpion or Johnny Cage. This way diversity is at it's max.

who are you taking the test for?

what team and what position exactly?

I agree with alot of your ideas and I appreciate the amount of time you put into your post.

I used to think that art was the only way to get into the biz...


Art is very competetive, not only is it taught almost everywhere.

If you don't have experience you will always lose out to someone who does.


I caught some lucky breaks...

AND IT HELPS IF YOU ARE REALLY GOOD AT THE GAME ;)

SO LET ME KNOW THE DETAILS AND MAYBE I CAN PUT A WORD IN FOR YOU.

who is your contact, etc.

If you get hired I can't wait to crush you in every version of MK peace.

You're welcome


My name is Gabriel Melendez
3D Character Modeler.


I don't have a team, they just said to make this guys head using 400 polygons. I imagine it's going to be a sports game because the test was about a foot ball player. My dream would be to work on MK though. Like almost everyone else. I love fighting games most of all.

The head they asked me to model was a guy that sort of looks like Sub-zero in MK3. It might be John Turk, but I don't know.

I am awesome with video games it's my life. I don't play sports games, but I would like to make one, I love working with 3D.

My contact is Martin Murphy.

My fan art pic got put in to MKDA it's 5 of 5, I don't like it much, but I was happy as hell when I got the news. You can imagine having a part in one of my favorite games of all time.

PS: You don't stand a chance against me in MK.


Leave me a message in my inbox if you want to talk more, or e-mail me. gabe687@yahoo.com


You can see the test I did in the link under my sign that says Extra Gallery.

Thanks man I owe you one.

Yeah Martin Murphy is a really harsh critic

so if you get hired it will be because you deserve it.

YOu wont get put on the MK team right away, you are going to have to earn it...

Only the best of the best work on MK.

I'm not even on the MK team.

We are short on artists for Psi Ops, you might be testing for our game.

This means that you would be working for Sal Divita, this is a very good thing.

Imagine how I must feel knowing that this guy I work with everyday is actually Nightwolf in disguise.

I'll see if I can pull some strings for you and, good luck!

ps. don't kid yourself about beating me in MK, thats why I'm here son!
pps. just checked your stuff out, very good. One thing you will have to know is that you will be hired for one job. Doing both is good (modeling,animation) but you will be hired to become a specialist. That is something they never tell you in school. That all yuou have to do is pick one and get good at it. If you think you could be good at game design, you should consider Level Design. That's what I do. It was the job that was available and I'm glad I did it. There will always be a shortage of game designers because that is not something that gets taught in school. You just know it. Art at Midway is extremely competetive. EVERYONE IS GOOD EVERYONE IS A PRO AND THEY USUALLY ONLY HIRE PEOPLE WITH EXPERIENCE. yOU ARE COMPETING WITH PROFFESSIONALS NOT TO MENTION THOUSANDS OF DEMO REELS AND RESUMES FORM OTHER PEOPLE JUST LIKE YOU so if you get hired it will be because you deserve it.

I have been working towards this for many years, and I will become a master at it, but that all comes with experience and tons of practice. I do my best and my work quality improves constantly. Working with pros it will be exponential.

I know I won't work on MK right away, but I hope to get the chance some time in the future.

I'll start from the bottom like anyone else. As long as I'm working on game development I'm happy.

My specific are of work would be 3D Character Modeling.

Thanks again for your help. I hope this works out.

More ideas for ya.


Reaction time after your attack gets blocked. You need to be able to defend during the period that you are open for attack.
Example: After your attack gets blocked if you hold block it takes a little while before the block will work.

What you can do instead is tap block or side step with parry timing. It will allow you to be able to defend faster.

Virtua Fighter 4 is the best example.
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Quick step in 4 directions, not a step, but a hop. Left, Right, Back, Forward. You need to be able to do the quick steps immediately one after the other.

The quick step animations need to be smooth when done multiple times it will be like the walk animation in MK4, but better.

When doing a quick step back, then forward, you need a special animation to make it look like gravity effects them.

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Be able to attack when facing away
have side and back throws.

The jump kicks should be extreme kicks. Lots of flips, very fancy.

If you do have the basic jump kick, I would like it to work like the 2D MKs. I need to be able to link attacks after a jump kick.
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Multiple wall slam animations depending on what position you are in when you hit the wall.

Wall combos, examples are VF4, and Tekken4.

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Blocking animations change when you are up against a wall. It will change to boxing style because you don't have room for fancy blocks.
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Many throws for every character, can be auto combos too. Look at VF4, Tekken4, SC2, DOA3.

Crouching combos
Floor combos

Taunt animations after you land a strong hit. Jan Lee in DOA3 is pretty good at that.

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I would like for Scorpion to use his spear like a whip. Example is IVY from SC2.

It would be awesome to have him swing the spear around, then throw it from behind his back.

The spear can also be used during combos.

The spear has many possibilities, not just to catch the opponent.
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Have all single attacks be effective. Play Tekken4, VF4, SC2, DOA3 and see what I mean.

When you connect with a back hook kick, (Round House.) The opp. should spin the correct way depending on whether the hit came from the left or right.

If you do the same move 3 times in a row, the computer will start to expect it and will defend or counter it if you continue to do it.

The computer will also learn your attack patterns.
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The block stance, when you just hold block, should just look like a flinch. Don't have them hold their arm up in the air because that doesn't happen for real.
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You should be able to cancel a combo with a throw. Check out King in Tekken 4.
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Block and Reverse ground attacks when you are floored. You could go in to the fetal position.

Aoi in VF4 has a ground attack reversal.

Well, since Bleed started going on about fancy kicks, I thought I'd just say this:
I'd like the sidestepping animations in MK6 to be something like cartwheels, or butterfly kicks, like in MKC.

I'd be nice.

And I thought verse's posts where long, lol . After reading ALL of it, i came away quite intrigued. Good stuff for the most part, IMO. Though, lol, what is up with EVERYONE wanting all this defensive, grapple, reversal shit?! lol. Whatever floats your boat though . I personally prefer movement over some skank reversal any day, but whatever.

It seams you're not down with juggles....BOOOOOO!! J/K .

I want the juggles, but with the opponent wobbling on the ground, like they are dizzy, so it looks more realistic.

Every other 3D game has air Juggles, and I think MK can be different while keeping the same idea.

the ground juggle is the same thing as an air juggle only that the opponent is not air born.


The closest example to my idea is the juggle in SC1 or 2

My ideas are aimed more towards making the game feel more realistic, and less like a video game, as strange as that may sound. The more options you have available the more real it will appear.

That is why my favorite games are VF4, T4, and SC2. They give you so many options that the fights are always different and I don't get the feeling that I'm doing the same thing over and over because there are so many things to do.

In a game like Tekken, you still repeat a lot of the moves, but it doesn't feel so restricted. It's kind of hard to explain.

I like some of these ideas and I have thought of alot of them before myself.

I don't think that juggles should be changed...MK invented juggles.

Back in the day it was just Street Fighter and MK

MK was the only game that had juggles.

That is one of the reasons why I chose MK over SF

The other is that Midway is in Chicago and I immediately wanted to get good at it.

I grew up on Midway games and MK was really kool.

It would have been cool if there was arena damage like if you do a throw against a wall,the wall will break leading to another area of the stage.Another feature what would be cool if charcters who wear masks or hats there mask can fall off during a fight.

MK2 and street fighter 2 were the reasons for me to become a serious artist in the first place.

I went to The American Academy of Art because John Tobias and Tony Goskie went there. I'm doing everything I can to work at midway, following footsteps.

How about this.

If you want to keep the regular juggles, have the ground juggles too, a combination of the two would be great. Keep both limited like the juggles in MKDA only so many pop ups work before the opponent falls. You would be able to link a ground juggle to an air juggle.

The only game I can think of that sort of has that is DOA3, some of the attacks leave the opponent wobbling and open for a juggle type combo.

If you have DOA3, try this combo and you will see exactly what I'm talking about.

Pick Jan lee.
The combo is
UF+k, p, UP+pp, pp-----------------------------------------

Options for when you continue should be.
Continue with the same fighter. Like in SC2
Continue and change fighter. Like in MKDA
Quit game. Like in MKDA

It's annoying to have to go back to the select screen every time I continue a fight. I want the fight to start again without delay.

What exactly do you mean by a "ground juggle?" I'm just not getting it. Though, I do get a little retarded now and then , it's not you.

The very essence of a "juggle" is that you're not on the ground in the first place. When you say "ground juggle", do you mean canceling normals and specials into one another? Like a standard 2der?

I don't play DoA, so is that Lee shizzle guarunteed?

In fighters such as T, SC, VF, you have oki, CH, BT, various axis options, various movement options - that are worth a damn and actually define certain characters. The ability to buffer certain elements in and out of moves and movement.

That's why these games are not restricted. Effort was made to provide various properties to a single element, in defined situations, that the player can explore and exploit as they wish.

Also, juggles are restriced on a x/y axis, not a z axis. X/Y restrictions alow you to "pump out" those last few defining hits of a juggle through proper movement and spacing. Choosing to nurf a juggle by forcing the oppenent down is lame, IMO.

Ok, another idea. Sorta of mixes concepts from VF2 and Tao Feng.
Since I'm too lazy to explain the idea right now, I'll just give some sort of self-explainable example or something. I dont know.
Take Shao Kahn, for instance.
Suppose he's in MK6, and he's got all this armour thing.
The damage caused on Kahn during the fight would be a bit reduced, due to the armour he's wearing.
But as the fight progresses, eventually pieces of the armour could break away, and the places where the armour fell off begin recieving more damage than before.
Know what I mean?

Well, it's 3:00 am right now, and Im pretty damn bored, so I guess I will just add some ideas to what bleed posted

"There could be special block, or evasion animations, for like a sweep, you would do a back flip."

Excellent idea! I think perhaps there can be 2 defensive buttons maybe? One for blocking and one for parrying? Parrying would throw the opponent's arm or leg or whatever to the side giving you massive frame advantage and free mix up. Blocking would work as usual, but like you said if the block is timed perfectly they'll do something else depending on the attack like a backflip. The real question is besides looking damn cool how would this effect gameplay? I wanna hear some more great ideas : )



"Look at Akira's high Reversal in VF4. He slaps the opponents hand then throws an elbow attack."

Oh I see...so when you parry by pressing a button immediately after the character would punish correct? If so, that's a really cool idea, and I think it would work a lot better than the reversals in MKDA.


"Also look at Steve Fox in Tekken 4 his counter is like this. Tap RP,> then tap LP."

Ok now this I am familiar with. I think this would balance out characters TREMENDOUSLY(SP!?!). In case those reading don't know what bleed is talking about, in Tekken 4 when Steve Fox is being punched you can tap triange~forward and he real do a punch parry. It will stun the opponent a bit, and if you quickly press square afterwards he'll do an uppercut that knocks them down. In MK6 this would lead to things like Oki or ground throws..too sweet!


"These attacks could be combo starters."

Yes, this is where diversity among character's reversal would come into play. Like everyone has them, but certain character's could have Just Frame reversal that if timed perfectly does either extra damage or knocks them into the air for a juggle.

"Another idea, is to combine 2 or more hand to hand styles in to 1 hybrid style, so you have one hand style, and one weapon style. It would depend on the fighters story."

Agreed, many people feel this way on the boards, bleed. Some characters just don't have uses for 3 stances. Some should just have 2 like Kung Lao(mantis and broadsword) while more intricate characters like Kitana could have 3.


"Also, make the fighting arsenals very intricate, more moves than in VF4, Tekken4, SC2. Beat them at their own game."

I don't think hardcore fighting fans like series like VF,Tekken and SC more because they have more moves, but because almost every single move for every character has some kind of use, and everyone plays totally different.

"If you use just frame moves, make it doable so it's not frustrating. Give the player at least 3 frames to react in."

Yeah, lets not make the Just Frames TOOOO hard, but make them hard enough to do to warrant the bad ass animation and the updated results.


"I have 3 examples for you.
In the MK movie the first one when Liu Kang fights Sub Zero. Liu Kang does a side kick, sub zero takes the hit, and links the falling back animation to a back flip, nailing Liu kang in the Jaw."

Heh...I remember seeing that very scene from the movie back when I was like 7..ahh..the memories. VERY COOL IDEA! BUT CHECK THIS OUT! What if liu kang punches sub-zero, sub-zero does back flip kick, but liu kang anticipates it and parries it,does a Just Frame Shaolin Cannon and launcher Sub-Zero sky high? It would keep players on their feet at all times making for quicker, more exciting gameplay. This "seasaw" effect could go very far..I hope Midway investigates this.

"And in the movie Fist of Legend. When Jet li fights his girls uncle. The uncle does a hook, Jet li is air born, spinning like a top, then while still in the air, punches the uncle in the chest, then lands on his feet."

Wow...I could just imagine that in a fighting game...wow.








"You could instead use a NEW version of the Juggle to be different. Instead of having the opponent bouncing like a volley ball, have them wobble while standing on the ground like they are dizzy."

I think the juggling system is really just fine the way it is. The only problem I have is how they ALWAYS fall down after 3 hits in the air and you have to "cheat" to maintain their float. I believe the next MK should take the approach of all other fighters and make it so the character slowly but surely "floats" away from the juggler.

"Also like in SC2 you would be able to get out of a ground juggle by holding the direction pad in any direction, causing your character to stumble in any direction. It gives you a chance to get out of major punishment."

That works in SC2 because SC2 is not a game about juggles, but in a fighter like MK where it's pretty much 50% juggles it would really hurt the system more than help it.

"Instead of just having a side step, make the characters do a cool evasion animation, depending on the attack. The fancy animation would link to an attack."

Sounds a bit too much like the "swoosh step" in MKDA. I think a regular sidestep would be fine.


“A lot of the combos in MKDA and every 3D fighting game are impossible, or impractical. You don't need huge combos, Max 2-7 attacks is good. Remember Every combo needs a variety of escape options. The only time a combo would be unblockable is if your character is Dizzy, or if it connects as a counter.”

Agreed once again..lol. Combos shouldn’t be too big and they shouldn’t do as much damage they did in DA. The only combos that should do damage of that caliber is counter hit combos. Like with Shotokan: if I hits 1,2 on CH they will crumble down. Then b+2 would be guaranteed and lead into another b+2,cs,1,2,cs like it did in DA. Or with Jax. His Muay Thai: 2,2 lead into a DAMAGING branch, this shouldn’t happen any longer. I believe Jax’s knee attack(3,3) should be slowed down big time, and if it hits on counter it causes them to crumple..guaranteeing judo: b+2 and a juggle afterward. I think certain things should be guaranteed NON CH and certain things shouldn’t be guaranteed non CH. Like simple jabs could be guaranteed on touch. Sub’s 1,2,Jax’s 2,2, Kung Lao’s 1,1 all should be guaranteed on hit, but full branches should be blockable. So 1,2 would be guaranteed on hit, but 1,2,4 would not be, nor would 1,2,4,cs,2,cs.

“Have it so you need special timing for linking moves, so you get rid of button mashing. Not impossible timing. Some combos will change depending on the timing, a different move may come out.”

Great idea once again. Timing should effect how a combo comes out. I also believe holding onto the button should increase the animation and perhaps do more damage and/or cause guard stun.

“When stumbling, you could tap block fast, so you don't fall down.”

Perhaps you could have a stamina bar. When the more full the bar is the easier it is for you to mash to not stumble down. When it’s really low it gets hard

“You should be able to chain special moves to combos, like in MK4, or have special energy moves for finishing combos, like extreme combo enders but restricted like a super move in street fighter.”

I think the special moves linking into combos would work only if combos weren’t guaranteed off first hit like in MKDA.


“You should be able to attack opponents when they are on the ground, like in Tekken, and VF. No super high jumps for down attacks like in VF4, it looks rediculous. Use Realistic attacks, and a lot of them.”

I don’t have a problem with the super high jump oki attacks in VF4. I think they are pretty damn cool, but they shouldn’t be in MK. MK already suffers enough from cartoonish moves and stuff, so I think a realistic oki game would help out a lot.

Besides having oki exclusives, certain moves that are non oki should work for grounded opponents. Jax’s ground pound, Bo Rai Cho’s stomp, Drahmin’s pound, hell fire, lizard ball etc would work for oki. Bringing back Sub-Zero’s air shower freeze would help, but you could also just make the ice shaker cover more of Sub’s body so it hits grounded as well. Grapplers like Kano and Jax would have ground throws too. Also, some moves should just basically hit those who lie down. Like sweeps and certain low attacks.

“There need to be close ups, and dynamic camera work when you connect with certain moves, or throws. Like in Tekken 4 or in the movies.”

DEFINITELY! Although this already in MKDA, I feel it’s not done for the right moves. Who cares if simple attacks hit. When moves like the spear or superman hit the camera should change angles or zoom in making it more dramatic so to speak. Just Frame moves should not only change camera angle, but I think they should instantly replay about 3 times to make it have more of a “wow” effect.



“There should be submission holds, or locks. Like when you locked swords in Samurai Show down, you would both be struggling, and whoever mashes the buttons faster would win, and go into their own lock, or a throw.”

LOL..well If you’d just click on page 3 or 4 you’ll see that I thought of that very same idea. I believe this would really help balance out weapons. It would work like SC2’s guard impact, but instead of repeling their weapon the character would clinch on and so begins the sea saw battle. If the player who didn’t do the “lock
wins then they will get some sort of free damage.

“There should be throw escapes, and throw reversals. “
I agree with throw escapes, but throw reversals? I dunno..it seems like a waste to me. No one expects throws, so no one is going to try and reverse it. I believe throw escapes are good enough.

“The throws should be really fancy and can be a regular throw, or a quick combo.

There should also be weapon throws, like in Soul Calibur.

Fansy!!!! Make the crowd go Daaaaaaaaaaaamn when they see it happen.”

YEAH MAN! MKDA really missed that “DAMMMMMMMMMMN! DID YOU SEE THAT?!?!” appeal like the old MK’s had. I like remember when someone pulled off a huge combo with Kung Lao when I was like younger everyone was just like “OHHHHH SHIT!” ya know? DA doesn’t have any moves or throws that make people do this, and I believe with a deeper system this will be possible. Everyone in DA plays all character pretty much the same way. I believe this should change by balancing out the stances and giving players more options.


“When you are attacked near a wall, and you spray blood, the wall should be stained, like the floor, and blood should run down too.”

I actually never thought of that, but since DA has no walls we’d need some before that would be a possibility..great idea though.


“Characters need awesome stand up animations, like in Devil May Cry 2.

Fighting stances need variety to look realistic.

Have it so when far from your opponent, your fighter will relax a bit, and lower their arms, and have a relaxed walking animation (8 Way) “

AGREED! As much as DA’s graphics were good, I feel most of the characters(with the exception of Jax,Scorpion and Shang Tsung) all felt VERY STIFF.



“You could also use the stage as a weapon, similar to power stone, but like for example. In Iron Monkey, there is a scene where the main bad guy, kicks some floor tiles on the ground, and they go flying towards the opponent.

You could even kick a chair to your opponent.

An automatic block animation would be like your character kicks the flying object, and destroys it.”
SWEET! Dude you should forget about design and consider pursuing a game design career..JK! But yeah, that would truly be cool man.


“Raiden's lightning should look like real lightning, and should shoot sparks, it if hits the wall.
He should also have his Superman move back, and it should go all the way across a stage, and if it slams you against a breakable wall, you should go through it, to the next room. “

Tightness once again. I think Midway did a good job with Raiden’s lightning, but they really need to work on his staff. I mean..play Raiden for about 3 minuites in Staff stance then play Kilik in SC2. Look how much he puts Raiden to shame.

Raiden would be the only character to do air juggles, because he can move super fast. It would be like in the One, with Jet lee, when he is attacking the cops, and they are floating in the air.

“Linking stances to combos is awesome. I'm talking about different stances in the same martial art. Like Ivy, or yung sung.”

YES! Combos that link into stances are some of the most pretty looking things in fighting games. It’s probably the reason why I use Hwoarang in T4(besides Hwoarang being a bad ass) and tried to learn Yunsung in SC2(too bad he sucks ASS).



“A suggestion for designing game play is to
sit and watch a kung fu movie with a controller in your hand and pretend that you are playing the movie like a game.”

A weird, but helpful idea. I’d check out Enter The Dragon, Fist of Fury, random Jet Li movies and maybe the Rush Hour movies so you can laugh and learn at the same time..heh.


“You could set the combos up with a tree branch system.

move 1 links to 2,4,8,1
Move 2 links to 5,4,9,6
Do this for every single move.

Even for ground attacks, and low attacks.”

Yeah, this is what a lot of fans, custom combos or atleast different options than the pre set ones.


“You need multi tired stages, like DOA2, not DOA3, falling from a roof top is too fake. Keep is semy realistic.

You should be able to slam through a wall to another stage.”

Well, since Boon said stage interaction will be taken to a whole new level, I would assume that they already have this in check, so I wouldn’t worry. I also think falling from a roof is just fine I actually think it’s pretty damn cool. The only realism the midway team should worry about is the moves themselves looking real. If a guy can survive getting a sword stuffed into a stomach a guy can survive falling off a roof.

“Take out crouching completely, no body uses the crouch. It is completely useless. Also you don't see it in movies. If you do have crouching, it would only be an automatic block animation. You could link Stand up attacks to the crouch evasion like in every other game.”

Ummm..no. I’ve gotta ask WTF you are talking about. The Crouch block is VERY USEFUL. It friggen avoids low attacks and it’s in every fighting game..maybe every fighting game ever made, so I don’t see why MK6 shouldn’t have it. It’s been in every MK, and it never bothered me.

“Multiple throw reversals back and forth, like in the movie with Jet lee called Fist of Legend, the fight with the blind folds.”

Yeah, mutli throws own. I’d check out Ganesha from Bloody Roar: Primal Fury for examples or even King/Nina/Paul in Tekken 4.

“Fancy Reversals

Check out the Reversals Pai has in VF4. the forward + pk, and down forward + pk. Very cool and fancy looking. I think reversals like that are a must.

Some of those reversals could be combo starters.”

Hmmm..unless it’s a Just Frame I don’t think reversal should be juggle starters, that is just screaming “BROKEN”. Lets not forget how one thing can break a game so easily.


“A big thing in kung fu movies is attacks going back and forth like block, attack, block, attack.....

This would be very satisfying to watch in game. If you could have the block work like a parry, similar to the parry in Street Fighter 3 3rd strike, there could be a couple frames after you block an attack, in which you could press punch, or kick to do a pre set counter move, depending on what block animation was used.”

Wouldn’t this be a reversal basically? I like idea. I love to watch hardcore players chill at the arcade and play SF 3rd strike. That game is just as fun to watch as it is to play IMO.


“Make the computer learn from it's mistakes, and adjust to an individual players fighting style, that would be great too. It would simulate playing with a real person.”

I agree 100 %. I know that VF4: Evo recruited the top players for the original VF4 and had them record the way they play into the game. Perhaps the top testers can put the way they play into the game. This would be great. If that’s not possible I atleast hope they can make the AI a LOT better.


“Have throws change animations when close to the wall, like in DOA3.”

Eh..why not just have wall throws period? That would be cool, and I don’t remember seeing that in a fighting game before.



“By the way, I might be getting a job as a Character Modeler at Midway. I took the art test, and they liked it, I just have to see if they are going to hire me.”

Good luck man.