Wanderer Wrote: Drfatality Wrote: Combos and regular punches and kicks. Big problem with that is the dial-a-combo system. With a manual system, that wouldn't be a problem at all. If you want to view a more elaborate idea on a manual combo system, view this: http://www.mortalkombatonline.com/content/forum/showmessage.cds?name=mk6&message;=85840&page;=18 Ctrl+F my user name and you'll see my version of a manual combo system. With it I think the move arsenal will be even.

oh I see.So if MKDA had a manual system it would be easier to link moves together?I hope MK becomes more fluid in the future.I also hope you'll get ,ore control of the charcter.You won't feel like your doing a incomplete move like you do in MKDA.Here's to hoping this gets stickied and people from the MK team who work on the fighting sees this.

I had an idea... if MK still has the three style system with a deeper engine, maybe when you link into your weapon style the first hit would be different, not because of the dial-a-combo you were in, but because of the button you pressed in combination with the left trigger, like a style change attack, totally surprise your opponent by having your weapon out attacking in an instant, but I think to make it fair if you miss it would leave you open to attack... thoughts?

MajinTsung Wrote: I had an idea... if MK still has the three style system with a deeper engine, maybe when you link into your weapon style the first hit would be different, not because of the dial-a-combo you were in, but because of the button you pressed in combination with the left trigger, like a style change attack, totally surprise your opponent by having your weapon out attacking in an instant, but I think to make it fair if you miss it would leave you open to attack... thoughts?

That would be pretty cool Majin, so basically we get multiple ways to change stances with multiple change stance moves?

That would be great.

I'd also like to switch back and forth through the styles left or right.

To do that, the button lay out would need to be changed some.

But that problem could be eliminated if there is just 1 hand style and 1 weapon style.

1 hand style could be just one style, or a combination of many styles.

Yeah, being able to go back and forth would open up a few more things. Something i had mentioned in the past... There should be one button specifically for switiching between the two hand-to-hand styles and the other to toggle your weapon. In DA, there was an unused button that could do this. You should be able to combo in and out of any stance/weapon that you want.

I hate branching system they're using now. And what makes it worse is, you can't stop in a combo to even think about changing it up cuz it treats it like an error or something and you eat damage.

They really need to clean up their animations! How can Drunken Master, TKD, Hung gar/Crab, and the jabbers come out so nicely when literally everything else has like a two second lag at the end of each move???

How about something a more specific Like...

L + back = puts you in to hand stance 1

L + forward = puts you in hand stance 2

L + down or up = puts you in weapon stance.

L = By it self is the normal MKDA stance toggle.


That way if you want to go from one stance straight to another specific stance you can. No toggling required.

But if you want to toggle them, you still can.


To have 4 special stance switch attacks for every style you could just switch stance and press any attack button at the same time.

A normal standing attack would come out if you do that.

Example you could tap.

( >L1 )

( >L2 )

( >L3 )
or
( >L4 )

Any of the 4 neutral standing attacks from the style you are switching in to will come out immediately.


The unused button from MKDA could be used to pick up stage weapons.

PS: I bought PSI-OPS for the Xbox. The game is awesome.

Bleed Wrote: How about something a more specific Like... L + back = puts you in to hand stance 1 L + forward = puts you in hand stance 2 L + down or up = puts you in weapon stance. L = By it self is the normal MKDA stance toggle. That way if you want to go from one stance straight to another specific stance you can. No toggling required. But if you want to toggle them, you still can. To have 4 special stance switch attacks for every style you could just switch stance and press any attack button at the same time. A normal standing attack would come out if you do that. Example you could tap. ( >L1 ) ( >L2 ) ( >L3 ) or ( >L4 ) Any of the 4 neutral standing attacks from the style you are switching in to will come out immediately. The unused button from MKDA could be used to pick up stage weapons. PS: I bought PSI-OPS for the Xbox. The game is awesome.

This would mean that most CS moves would have to either launch or knock down right? Otherwise, the string-based nature of MK would create infinites by ping-ponging chains back and forth instead of ending them.

Good eye, that makes sense.



I can refine the idea more to fix problems like that.

Give me an example of an infinite and I'll find a way to fix it.

I can already think of a few ways to get around it.


1 = Pre set chain limits, so you can't do infinities.
Like with Shang Tsung in snake. You can only tap 1 three times in a row then you can't link any more.

2 = Have the combos be breakable, blockable, and reversable like in Tekken and other games.

3 = Only have specific stance switch attacks that come out if you switch and tap and attack button at the same time.

A new move might come out. Like you said

A knock down
Pop up
Stun
poke can chain to a combo.
etc.

4 = Not have 100% custom combos so you can't just chain any combo in to a stance switch attack.

I'd prefer number 3 out of all of those. Honestly, I hate style branch combos for the most part. I would prefer if it was just one hard shot when switching instead of stringing them together.

I go for number 3, as for tenstrings I'd have separate ones for each style.

Number 3 sounds good, getting attacks that go into other stances. So does that mean we don't want stringing to be done cross stances?

Originally, when MK announced their stance toggle, I was imagining something along the lines of launching them up, and then change stances and doing certain moves to keep them up, then changing and doing other moves. Not the string based nature that Change Stance attacks are now.

I think if they are going to put in stage weapons, then even though they are extremly powerful, you should be able to do a combo(manual) that uses the stage weapon, and then allows you to switch to either your weapon or other stance to finish off the combo... maybe this might be to complicated to do, but it would add another dimension to a new concept...

MajinTsung Wrote: I think if they are going to put in stage weapons, then even though they are extremly powerful, you should be able to do a combo(manual) that uses the stage weapon, and then allows you to switch to either your weapon or other stance to finish off the combo... maybe this might be to complicated to do, but it would add another dimension to a new concept...

Diffinately, different characters can adapt to the stage weapons in different ways to suit their specific styles.

If Scorpion uses it, and it's a big and slow weapon, then Scorpion could branch into a fast sword combo of his own.

Maybe the power and weight of the weapon could prevent the use of specials, I don't think Nightwolf would be able to pull off the shadow charge while holding such a heavy weapon.

Sub-Zero could change from the stage weapon and branch into freezing the opponent as they are stunned by the power of the stage weapon.

MajinTsung Wrote: I think if they are going to put in stage weapons, then even though they are extremly powerful, you should be able to do a combo(manual) that uses the stage weapon, and then allows you to switch to either your weapon or other stance to finish off the combo... maybe this might be to complicated to do, but it would add another dimension to a new concept...

It doesn't sound that complicated. All the character has to do is drop the weapon and then continue the combo. Unless, of course, you mean that the weapon sets off a new chain of moves.

FLSTYLE Wrote: Maybe the power and weight of the weapon could prevent the use of specials, I don't think Nightwolf would be able to pull off the shadow charge while holding such a heavy weapon. Sub-Zero could change from the stage weapon and branch into freezing the opponent as they are stunned by the power of the stage weapon.

I like that idea. I have good feeling Deception will have something like that too. Then again, I won't get my hopes up. Nevertheless, it is a good idea and I hope its implemented. That sounds really easy to code.

The stage weapon is interesting, its good that you have to drop it in order to use other stances, I just hope that this means the weapons have some big advantages like several unblockable moves or could be disarmed and whatnot.

Anyways, let me continue this discussion on a new note since we've covered so many bases.

Since most of the special moves in MK for the characters are coming back, how would you like them represented in 3d and how would you like it to effect the character's mixup game/options?

I'll start off. For Nightwolf, I'm hope he gets his charge back MK style. It still hits high, so you can crouch it, but if you do a blocking crouch, it hits low. (and thus cheeses a little damage) I also hope that it can ram through high attacks (not mids or lows though). This can give him an unprecedented way to cover distance, interrupt with priority, and go through jabs. If you crouch it then you can punish the move easily, if you block it, then like in MK3/UMK3, it recovers fast.

There are some great ideas here,to bad I only have one;I think every character in mk should have there original victory pose for deception.Like how scorpion raises his left arm,raiden flash lightning into the aire.t.c

HDTran: Good. I like it. For Scorpion's Teleport Punch, I would like it if you COULDN'T block it. You had to move. Afterall, Scorpion is coming from behind, and the opponent is facing the other way. The only way to avoid it in time is by ducking, rolling to the side, or backdashing.

Another idea I'd like to see is "mirror shots." Basically, mirror-like walls and whatnot make energy balls bounce back (if its glass, the wall shatters, but it still bounces back) and towards the players. The principle behind it is how light bounces off of mirrors. This doesn't work on non-chi/light based projectiles, such as Scorpion's Spear and Sub-Zero's Ice Ball. An example of what would work is Li Mei's Sparkle Shot and Johnny Cage's Green Ball. Not too much to elaborate on, but its fairly basic, and would probably make someone say "Oh shit!" during the match.

Siduu101: Heh. Not quite gameplay related, however Scorpion has never had a trademark victory pose. Its changed in every game.

I never knew that.Maybe I was jerking or something.

I wouldn't mind this idea for 3D concerning the ice clone.

There would be no time limit to how long the ice clone stays there for, in a 3D arena you could have them scattered across just like the destructable scenary in the Deadly Alliance Ice stage.It would diffinately introduce a bit of strategy.

Also for one input of a projectile, three should be fired, one straight forward, one slightly to the left, the other slightly to the right. Projectiles are still being fired as if it the game was in 2D, therefore are far too easy to side-step. If they are going to be used, they might as well be useful.

I'd also like to see more useful 3D special attacks. Like Shang's fireballs in MKDA.

Or some specials could be wide like Jax's wave from MK2.

Some moves could track the opponent, like the fireballs in Dragon Ball Z budokai 2.

Shang tsung's souls would be good for a tracking fireball.

Maybe some fireballs could act like boomerangs Like Jade's special in UMK3.

But it could be that you throw it to the side, and it makes a circle but dissipates before it gets back to you.



Rayden could throw a long lightning bolt that would hit the ground, then travel sideways.


A character could throw some kind of shock waves or something but they would throw 2 fireballs.

They would fly out in a V shape so if the opponent side steps left or right they will be hit, but not if they stay in the middle.

It's basically the same as shang's fireballs in MKDA, but these fly out straight instead of around a half circle.


Also you know how if you throw a ball at the floor but you spin it when you throw it. when it hit's the ground, it will bounce in a different direction.

some character could have a fireball that works like that. It flies forward and down like Cage's fireball, but when it hit's the ground it will bounce left, right, forward, or up.

Some fireballs don't even have to be "balls"

They could be a wall of energy, like the fire attack in PSI-OPS. They don't have to stay with the typical Video game mold. They could make the specials look more epic, or like something from a movie. Or like Ogres fire spit in Tekken 3 and Tekken Tag.

Those would diffinately work, while you could still have just a single lightening bolt you could have a whole line of fire that doesn't limit the attack to any certain distance.

I think it'd be kool to have multi tired stomp attacks. Like do a stomp attack off the second floor.

Example: Instead of just jumping down after you knock the opponent to a lower level, you could do a Virtua fighter style stomp attack from the second floor, or from the top of a building like the sky tower.

The opponent would be able to avoid the attack by doing a special quick roll command like tap any 3 attack buttons together. Like the quick roll in VF4.


That would look pretty sick, imagine you do a combo, juggle the opponent, the opponent falls though the floor or a wall to a lower level, and you follow up with a stomp attack from the higher level. Your fighter could let out a crazy scream when they jump off the ledge to do the stomp.

If the lower floor is wood, you might be able to smash through the lower floor too, with the stomp attack.



-----------------------------------------

A variation of this could be specific special attacks for certain characters.

Examples

Special attacks done while the opponent is falling to a lower level.

( Scorpion )
1 = Telleport punch = must be timed right.

2 = Telleport under opponent and throw a spear straight up. You hook the opponent, then yank on the rope smashing the opponent to the ground extra hard.

(Note : The faster you telleport under the opponent to throw the vertical spear, the more damage you will cause when you pull them down.

This is because the opponent will be higher, so they will fall a longer way down.)


Rayden =

1 = Telleport to lower level for a juggle. The timing for this one is easy, but don't do it too late.

2 = Do a downward Super man, but have Rayden's lower body blending in to a big lightning bold.

Rayden will push the opponent down to the ground very fast, and when they hit the ground, Rayden will go through the opponent like a telleport and pop up some where on the side.

You hear Rayden do his scream Akikabaeeeeee! and you hear a loud thunder crack!


( Noob )

1 = He could do a clone shadow stomp. He would jump down after the opponent and separate in to 3 clones doing 3 stomps when they land. As the shadows land, they blend in to each other becoming one once again.


( Jonny Cage )

1 = Shadow stomp = one hit like his shadow kick, but it's a stomp instead.

( Bo Rai Cho )

1 = Belly flop off the higher floor.

2 = Puke down from the higher floor.

--------------------------------------------

If some special moves can't be used for this, then the characters could do some VF4 style stomps, like a flying Knee stomp, or something like that. Some characters could even use their weapon for this, if they have a stage weapon it's even more damage.

But they should try and be creative with it.

For moves like Scorpion's vertical spear, you could tap "Block" when it's about to hit you, to do an air dodge = you wobble real quick and it will make it so you avoid the attack, It works the same as a sway.

This move can have some special animations for certain situations, If it's a spear, you could just do a dodge move, For something like Rayden's super man, you would roll to the side when Rayden hit's you, like a throw escape or a parry, like Jin's
You have to time this mover, but It shouldn't be too hard, or too easy. And you can only do this one time while falling. After you do this move, you can still do a tec. roll, or land on your feet when you reach the floor below.


For all these moves you have a limited amount of time do do the attack, before you jump down like normal. Like in MKD it takes a while before you see your character come down, before you see that, that's when you can do the stomps.

Some of the stomp attacks would need different animations and timing for different stages and different types of falls. Like the Beetle stage would need modifications like that.
------------------------------------------

A lot of these attacks could use some dynamic camera work too.

I like the style stomps. They're creative, but Noob's and Scorpion's are a bit far out there. I think they should be basic and not completely revolve around special moves (Raiden's and Cage's would look basic). I don't like the idea of the "counter" for it. You're trying too hard, and it just really needs to be basic. I don't think it needs to be something super dynamic, just really simple yet creative. Lets say the higher health you are, easier to dodge the stomp. That makes sense, no? Not these elaborate counters like spearing. Or, the stomp could just always hit, and you would need to do a stomp as some sort of button combination, giving you a very small timeframe to use it, and then you'll automatically jump down if you don't hit the buttons.

Hmmmmm.......

Well...I like the more elaborate ones I love flashy moves.

I think there needs to be a way to get out of them too, if they are guaranteed, then it could become too cheep.

The ways I posted on how to avoid them was pretty basic, and would be easy to do IMO.

If you are in the air, tap Block at the right time, and if you hit the ground, tap any 3 attack buttons together to do a roll, or like in SC2, you could tap any 3 attack buttons in the air and you might be able to land on your feet. Maybe you could just tap Block for that too, like in SC2.

These seem pretty easy to me though.


Easy enough to be able to do on reflex.

Maybe instead of the 3 button tec. roll, you could just tap 2 buttons instead.

So it could be like this.

If attacked in the air = Tap Block to evade.

While falling, tap any 2 attack buttons together to land on your feet.

If about to hit the ground, tap any 2 attack buttons to do a tec. roll.


It needs to be well balanced out though, with the timing, so it's like medium difficulty at least, so to avoid making the attack too cheap, or useless.


The health dependent idea you said would be more realistic, but then it would also give an unfair advantage to the aggressor, which would also cause the move to become cheap.

I'm trying to keep in mind the best options for both players.


Any more ideas?

^^ Good shit on the stuff above.

Was just thinking about the Ice Rain for Sub-Zero. Assuming Sub-Zero doesn't recieve upgrades to his current stances, Subby pretty much sucks. One way I thought to relieve this is the ice rain.

Unlike the old Ice Rain, you can shoot it into the air, and call it down whenever you want with block.

How this would work: Lets say Subby is poking you and you know his pokes are pretty crummy and leave him open, but since he shot up the ice rain, even during the recovery of his poke, he can hit block and call it down. While it's not instant and both players can see and hear it before its coming, it gives Sub a protective shield in which to poke around and mix up his opponent.

It's also mapped onto block after the freeze to prevent cheap block tactics. (example: I sit there and block while you poke and then I call Ice Rain down on you while you are poking and I'm still blocking, would be cheap) Therefore, everytime sub hits block right away, both opponents hear it (if it was casted previously) and the opponent could quickly stop.

So it's a semi-double edged sword. If you want to use it effectively in your mixups, you pretty much can't block unless you want to waste it. Considering Ice Rain leaves Subby so open, it's also hard to keep going. Now of course there has to be a freeze counter in one combo so that opponents can't be frozen more than once in the air. Otherwise infinites (even though they'll eventually get damage reduction to 1 pixel) would happen.

What does everyone else think?