I've been playing a couple of wrestling games recently, and I've been thinking that instead of a conventional throw system, MK could benefit from grapples. Its like you grab an opponent, and instead of just throwing them, you could do 5 or 6 different kinds of moves. One that throws normally, one that stuns, one that leaves them prone on the ground for wake-ups, etc. Just a random thought.

Ive thought about that too, like a universal clinch of some sorts. Or have a few clinches for "grapple" style characters. Then have the execution of the throw follow the initial clinch, ala' VF. I like such systems, personally.

Maybe have an 8-10 frame clinch, while the actual throw could be buffered with in the animation. The actual escape could be buffered durring clinch and durring the first few frames of the throws execution. If the the throw command is botched or ignored after the clinch, that could result in the position switch, perhaps? Meh...

I'd like a more complex grappling system too, it could work different for different styles.

A Kung fu fighter might do something like this.

A basic throw could be a shove type move. Sort of like Steve Fox's Throw in Tekken4. When you tap 2+4 then don’t press anything.



Options that could go with this basic throw command. The basic command = 1+3

If you do nothing it will be a quick pull and push move that works like one of Lei Fang's counters in DOA3. It would resemble King’s
It will throw the opponent off balance and leave them open for attack.

A different basic throw could be to pull the opponent, then push them and trip them. Like when you put your leg behind someones leg and you push them.

It would be sort of like that, but when you trip them, the opponent would be lifted from the ground and float a little, then you would push them down hard towards the ground. You would just push them like if you shove someone, but downwards instead. You hear a loud Thud when they hit the ground.


Now you have extra moves that you can imput during the initial PULL animation.

1= Tap 1 max hold time = 2-3 frames = You pull opponent towards you, and do a left back hand to their stomach. A very smooth movement like Tai chi.

This move stuns the opponent and leaves them open for attack.

2= Same move, but just before the back hand connects, tap ( >12 ) to combo in a left exploding palm strike. It looks almost the same as Forest Law’s poison arrow in Tekken Tag = >+2~1. There are a variety of these types of combos that can link to the #1 tap back hand move.

This is like a just frame move, but you have 2-3 frames to do it and is unblockable. The damage would have to be tested to make it worth doing, but not cheap.

3= Press and hold 1 during the initial grab = You pull the opponent towards you and you do a Left back hand to their stomach, but this time the opponent will fly back, land on their back and do one roll ending face down.

4= Tap 2 during the initial grab = You pull the opponent towards you and trip them with your left foot, while you throw them with your arms sending them flying a couple feet behind you. The opponent does a 180 flip and lands on their back then slides a bit.

If you tap 1+2 the second the left foot trip connects, the opponent will do a 360 flip and land face down. This is a just frame and will cause extra damage.

5= Tap 3 during the initial grab = You pull the opponent, push them, hop and throw a strong left kick sending them flying.

6= Tap 4 during the initial grab = You pull the opponent, push them behind you in the same motion, hop and throw a strong back kick. The opponent stumbles forward, then falls flat on their face and slides a little.

7= Tap < during the initial grab = You pull the opponent and in the same motion push them behind you and you turn around. The opponent is left with their back towards you open for attack.



This is all basically a variation of how Steve Fox’s 1+4 and King’s It would be easy / hard and fast with many uses.

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TTT, how would the command be for that parry?

You mean like
Blk, > Sort of like Steve Fox's parry?

or something different?

Yeah, something simple like that. Maybe a quarter circle forward or backward. There's no real need for complicated button commands for parries and the like since timing is what's really important.

This thread is the only interesting thread on the site. This is a great and interesting read, someone should email Midway and link them to this thread.

Yeah I agree with you all, MKDA was great when it came out, now it's getting stale and has no purpose now. Midway made a bad buiness decision on MKDA. They could of delayed the product and make it better. Yet when a game is delayed people complain, and yet they do not know what they are talking about. In MKDA I find my guy peforming the same moves and combos CONSTANTLY. No variety whatsoever. In SCII the throws in it are amazing and characters like Ivy, that have a complicated learning curve and hard-to-pull-off moves. Those are the type of characters I want in MK, but I can dream.

Chibi-Ermac Wrote: This thread is the only interesting thread on the site. This is a great and interesting read, someone should email Midway and link them to this thread. Yeah I agree with you all, MKDA was great when it came out, now it's getting stale and has no purpose now. Midway made a bad buiness decision on MKDA. They could of delayed the product and make it better. Yet when a game is delayed people complain, and yet they do not know what they are talking about. In MKDA I find my guy peforming the same moves and combos CONSTANTLY. No variety whatsoever. In SCII the throws in it are amazing and characters like Ivy, that have a complicated learning curve and hard-to-pull-off moves. Those are the type of characters I want in MK, but I can dream.

That's what we're working on. We can only hope someone from Midway sees this and realize that Mortal Kombat needs more than just extra modes of play and more fatalities.


Continuing on with discussion, along with weapon clashing (mentioned earlier) basic melee attacks should collide too. Imagine two punches strike simultaneously, and you hear a large CRACK and both characters stumble back. Depending on the hit, both players take damage, and can even fall down.

It would also be nice to see joint locks in combat (they would count as throws, however). For instance, Scorpion can grab the opponents arm and twist it within his own, finally putting on enough pressure hearing a loud snap (in fighting games, that just means it was a strong hit, not broken bones) and letting the opponent fall. This goes well with Scorpion's Hapkido style, which is primarily joint locking.

Sounds good to me, as long as the fluidity of the fight doesn't stop dead because of the reaction times, if they do hit each other like that I hope they then try to hit each other while their fist/leg is still there instead of stop, take the arm/leg away, and start again.

It would be logical though and hopefully would convine Boon+Co to put more work into the general collision detection.

That collision idea could be used to gain the upper hand in a battle.

For example if your opponent throws a straight jab, or a straight right, and you throw a back fist.

You could hit the opponent's arm making them turn their torso. Which would leave them open for a few frames.

It would work like a parry.

If your opponent throws a hight kick, and you throw a round house at the right moment, you would kick their leg and they would either stumble or fall down real fast.


Then some other attacks would automatically have priority if done at the right time like a high kick would beat a jab if done at the right time.

If the jab comes out faster before your finish your high kick, you will be hit by the jab.

Like in real life.

If both fighters throw a round house at the same time, they might not cause any damage or it might stun both players a little.

If you do a round house and your opponent does a crouching jab, they can hit you in the nuts making you stumble in pain.

oooo more like colapse in agony

the idea of it acting like a parry makes me like it more, you could to the same with opposites, one does a roundhouse, other does a sweep, 1st player's leg bends under and falls on floor, I think this is being introduced into Tekken 5 this time around, I believe it's called a crunch or something like that.

They sort of have it in tekken, but it's not very realistic. Like with Lei wulong you can do his sweep combo db+4,4 to counter a round house.

But it just works because the collision boxes don't make contact.

It's more of a general thing, unless it's like Bruce ErvIn's >>+2 in Tekken tag.

It would be nice to have this stuff done in detail, but it's probably too much work to do it for every attack, it could be considered a waste of time because of dead lines. But it'd still want to see it done more.

Bleed Wrote: They sort of have it in tekken, but it's not very realistic. Like with Lei wulong you can do his sweep combo db+4,4 to counter a round house. But it just works because the collision boxes don't make contact. It's more of a general thing, unless it's like Bruce ErvIn's >>+2 in Tekken tag. It would be nice to have this stuff done in detail, but it's probably too much work to do it for every attack, it could be considered a waste of time because of dead lines. But it'd still want to see it done more.

They are doing more more to it for Tekken 5, that's why I mentioned it.

It seems they're actually putting work into realistic collision detection. It's something that has need to been addressed for a while in the Tekken series, and now they are

I would like to see something similiar in MK it would look good and you would be able to brake bones doing this so everyone is happy.

*lights up a cigarette*


We're running out of things to talk about. Here's a question, what fighting game do you guys think has the best physics engine? And should Mortal Kombat have that engine?

Physics? Hmm...VF, but I like the wall physics/system in T much, much better. SC is just to sloppy for me to conisder. Meh.

I like the juggle system in Tekken Tag, and the wall system of Tekken 4 the most.

But I like the one for VF4 too, when you can juggle the opponent against the wall. The Juggle system in VF is good too, but I tend to enjoy the Tekken tag style more.

I really like the low juggle from VF4. When you can juggle the opponent when they are almost on the floor.



We can try and think of new ideas that haven't been done before in games, or improved variations on them, then tweak back and forth to perfection.



Here's a couple:

Block animations that give you the option of moving to the side instead of just back.

It's like a set up move, when guarding some attacks, you can do a side step style guard, or some form of evasion.

You might be able to do a forward~left crouch dash to avoid a high attack and put you behind the opponent.

You could move in any of the 8 directions.

It would work like the switch place move in Tekken 4, but it's more like a parry, or like the timed side step in VF4 and MKDA.

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More exaggerated animations when you block very strong attacks.

Like in SC2.

For a round house, if you block a round house, it would force you to take a step to the side instead of sliding back. Something like when you block whoarang's strong round house.

Right foot forward, 3~4

If you block a flying kick or some strong flying attack, it would force you to step back.

The same as when you block a powered up attack in SC2.

These could be used as guard breakers and or to put your opponent in the path to a death trap.

by 'best' i'm assuming you mean most realistic, so VF hands-down... that choice is pretty obvious, but which system would work best with Mortal Kombat? well Tekken has a quicker pace, and the physics aren't as tight but i think this would actually be an advantage and would suit MK better, not to mention be more enjoyable... and i'm really interested in this refined engine that Tekken is getting, it sounds quite amazing... if it is as fresh and cool as people claim, perhaps MKteam could learn from T5 and steal a couple design ideas

of course it could be argued that copying any other fighting game's engine would be an improvement over the current one, but i don't think just any engine would work with MK. i think a better system for projectiles needs to be developed... what's the point of having a better hand-to-hand, throw, parry system, etc if ur oppenent just caps you with fireballs before you can even get in close proximity? ik this isn't a major problem for MK/fighting vets, but if two inexperienced players go at it, they simply check the movelist for a special and commence in a firefight. Boon said he wanted MK to be accessable to beginners and experts alike, and he doesn't have any need to fix what's not broken (well, it may be broken but you won't hear the majority of players complaining) something needs to be done about projectiles so the player (novice or experienced) has no choice but to learn combos and about the intricacies of the system.

and you can't just scrap projectiles all together... it wouldn't be MK without them. most characters are identified with this attribute (Sub=ice, Raiden=lightning, Reptile=acid, etc)

maybe a type of energy/chi/magic/whatever bar could be incorporated so matches don't degenerate into a 3rd person shooter.
either that or the new engine would have to be developed so there are more ways to counter projectiles, and/or use a missed special against ur opp... anywaze, these are my rough ideas

Thus far T5's new engine is just T4 with old school crouch, ss, true air priority like SC2 and TT style juggles, more or less. I'm not to down with this universal CD shit, but meh. For those who dont know, T5 is public testing right now in Sugamo Japan; so a lot of new shit will be coming...and we'll all be able to see how fucked MKD is.

What does universal CD stand for?

crouch dash?


I was just thinking about that too. If it's really something necessary for every character.

The move is useful, but it seems to me like something that should be more personal, like in Tekken.

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Also, this is kind of iffy, because people are so used the fighting game basics, but.

What if the sitting was taken out.

Like if you crouch, you can't just sit there.

This just comes to mind because I never see anybody crouching in a real fight, or in movie fights. Not like in fighting games anyway.

If they do, it's like a sway, a quick evasion like Steve Fox's sways.

You don't even really need the crouch in MK, or even a game like DOA3 because for the most part, you don't have the crouching attacks like they are in Tekken or SC.

So what if guarding worked like this.

Blk= Guards against Highs and Meds = normal blocking
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ub+BLK= Guards against Highs and Lows.

You will lean back for high attacks.

you will hop back or do a back flip for low attacks.
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db+BLK= guards against Highs and Lows.

For High attacks, you will crouch automatically. It would look like Steve's >+4, a realistic looking duck.

For Low attacks, you take a step back, or block with hands or feet.

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U+BLK = guards against Highs and lows.

You could hop, or do a side flip over low attacks.

You can sway left against high attacks like Steve's 3 sway.

The side ways sway can link smoothly to the side walk. -------------------------------------------

D+BLK= guards against Highs and lows.

You will do a hard block against low attacks= like in Tekken Tag when you block Paul's Down+4. You might do a side flip instead. Depends on the character.

Against high attacks you would do a right sway like Steve's 4 sway.

The right sway can also link to the side walk.
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When you hold block+any direction on the D. pad, your character is always standing with their arms ready to block. the arm position may change, but they are always standing.

For db+block, they could have their arms at waist height. For ub+blk or blk they would have their arms up at neck height.

This is just the basic idea and it needs more though put in to it, but basically the system would still work the pretty much same as the other one, but it would look more realistic and not as generic I think.

The defense animations would look different depending on the style and the move you are guarding against.

Yeah, it's a universal crouch dash, kind of like in VF. Though, I seriously doubt it will have the same properties as VF or even act the same across the board with in the scope of T5 characters. I hate universal movement, but meh. So far it seams to not be in the beta, so WOOT!

There are some really good ideas in this thread.For me I will really like too have alot of spead in deception,teleports and fast back dashing e.t.c.I hope Ed see these ideas and put them in mk7,it will be the best game ever.

im sry to say this but... vf..uses mk:d as toilet paper. or at least a tissue

Satyagraha Wrote: I hate universal movement.

How do you mean?
How do you think it should be?

cause they put all the kick ass charaters in it..the graphics....theres so much more mk:D could have.

I was asking Satyagraha.

I know why VF beats MK.


Anyway, yeah I agree with you.

When you start giving characters universal movement options it begins to strip away their uniqness especially in regards to their "style." They are no longer isolated as an "individual." Also, the game begins to get watered down, depth wise; at least as far as individual character mechanics are concerned.

Wave dashing defined Mishimas, haya defines Nina, triple SS helps defines lei and bob. even 6AB~G cancels or chak chak is a characteristic of Mitsu in SC2.

I simply think that when you attach universal, hard elements to a system you are creating a void for all characters. A void which could be filled with other design decisions in order to promote that characters development, uniqness, depth, etc.

I find it hard to believe that T would aver adopt a truely universal CD. Character specific movement has been a pretty large part of T. Which is why I think that something has been missunderstood in translation concerning the d/f,N,D/F, universal CD. I think everyone may be able to CD, but not with the same properties or canceling abilities atached to them. I mean wtf, a wave dashing jack?! 0_0