I'll just post this as everything I wanted to write has been written:

"B00gieman Wrote:
Don't EVER put Mortal Kombat & virtua fighter in the same sentence, are you on crack?

MK has more depth than VF?!

Man you are a pair of clown shoes.

HARDCORE gamers KNOW that shit is garbage. END of subject.

MK doesn't even come close to Battle Arena Toshiden for the original Playstation, and THAT'S a cold fact."

lol.

Lets face it, when it comes to evolving with the times, Virtua Fighter stands head, shoulders, and torso above the rest. As for a game being so deep that it gets frustrating trying to master only one characters moves, to me there's no greater pleasure then busting out a super hard move on your friend after practicing it for six hours. I think that with fighting engines like those of VF,DOA3,DOAU, Soul Calibur,and Tekken, fighting games are going to get more complex, more frustrating, more deeper and the move sets are going to be more massachistic as time goes one. To me this is just something I enjoy, and if MK can't adjust as fast as other games have then it will be buried for good.

Toshinden IS deeper than MK, I've made that assesment in a post before, too - wonder if that crack head stole it from me, lol .

cartmansp Wrote: I'll be more specific on what I want MK to be. I want MK to be a perfect balance between simplicity and complexity. I don't want MK to be completely simple because simple games get stale and repeatitive once you've learned everything about it. Your options are very limited and the replay value is very low. I don't want MK to be too deep because deep fighting games can get very frustrating. I have to spend so much time practicing with a certain character, learning his/her strenghts and weaknesses. Also, I have to learn the gameplay mechanics or else I'll be no match for a computer controlled fighter. Although I have much more options, It doesn't make up for the time I wasted training with a certain character for so long. I want MK to balance these two ideas, sort of like Super Smash Brothers Melee. SSBM is simple and complex at the same time. In SSBM, a button masher and complex fighter are evenly matched. If a player wants to use simple fighting skills he can, and if a fighter wants to use deep gameplay stratagies he can. Also, you don't have to learn all of the gameplay skills to fight evenly among other fighters. It stays fun and deep. That's probably why SSBM has so much replay value.

The last few sentences make it sound like a button masher should be able to evenly match up against a peep who actually takes the time to learn the shit. Is that true? If so, that's bullshit. Why the hell should some scrubby ass noob be able to hang with someone who spent much more time and effort into learning the system? The entire point of a fighter is to beat the other person, which is done by putting in the time.

Again, complexity does not inherantly produce depth. Often times it can work against the development of depth. There DOES need to be a medium ground, at least when concerning the MK franchise; there is no issue with that. That is not the argument, anyways. The argument is that MK has, well, nothing in terms of depth to begin with. Not simply because it's lacking "complexity". It is because certain, fundamental, design issues and mechanical functionality have been completely ignored. Or, that the mechanic has been raped to the point it isn't even logical for it to exist in the first place.

Honeslty, with what DA offered plus a dash and the "combo breaker" shizzle in D, MK could be fine, IMO. Key word, "could." However, it's not. Why? Because what is present has not been developed correctly. The combo system, crap, side step, crap, move properties, what propertes?

I honestly do believe that MK can keep what it currenlty has...content wise. However, it seriously needs to be re-thought as to how it works in regards to the mechanics; and the system as a whole. SSBM rocks the world, BTW .

Satyagraha Wrote: The last few sentences make it sound like a button masher should be able to evenly match up against a peep who actually takes the time to learn the shit. Is that true? If so, that's bullshit. Why the hell should some scrubby ass noob be able to hang with someone who spent much more time and effort into learning the system? The entire point of a fighter is to beat the other person, which is done by putting in the time. Again, complexity does not inherantly produce depth. Often times it can work against the development of depth. There DOES need to be a medium ground, at least when concerning the MK franchise; there is no issue with that. That is not the argument, anyways. The argument is that MK has, well, nothing in terms of depth to begin with. Not simply because it's lacking "complexity". It is because certain, fundamental, design issues and mechanical functionality have been completely ignored. Or, that the mechanic has been raped to the point it isn't even logical for it to exist in the first place. Honeslty, with what DA offered plus a dash and the "combo breaker" shizzle in D, MK could be fine, IMO. Key word, "could." However, it's not. Why? Because what is present has not been developed correctly. The combo system, crap, side step, crap, move properties, what propertes? I honestly do believe that MK can keep what it currenlty has...content wise. However, it seriously needs to be re-thought as to how it works in regards to the mechanics; and the system as a whole. SSBM rocks the world, BTW .

Mortal Kombat Deadly Alliance simply has nothing to offer as a real game. While most people on these boards know that certain stances were better than others in MKDA, few really understand why.

The reason is simple, the simplistic nature of MKDA inherently made all stances unbalanced. This is because in MKDA, there really is NO reason whatsoever to use most moves over the fastest one.

For example, if I played Kenshi in MKDA, my mixup game would be B+4 for low and his main TC combo that goes from mid to punish low. Do I have any use for any of the other lows, mids, or highs? Nope, why? Because they aren't fast enough, safe enough, etc. but the main reason is that MKDA has no move properties.

Every poke and attack is the same, only different speeds, recovering, and damage. Most people on these boards probably only see those three. But as the people on this post have shown, there are many real fighting game fans that love MK and want the fighting aspect to be better.

MKD needs to shape up, if not on anything else but move properties. Most moves don't have a reason to even exist, more moves that only have differeing speed, recovery, and damage would be worthless because there will always be "the best low."

How about instead of Boon implementing more moves such as these, we have systems where the character gets staggered when blocked, their stomach gets crumpled and they trip back, or moves that land a guy down face down that would set up for more options? How about a move that goes through lows, but has more recovery and is slower? Hell, even some unblockables and guard crush moves might be justified for weapons. Moves just need so much more than damage/speed/recovery.

This is the main reason why MKDA is so simple. Find your character's main way of going from mid into a combo, find your character's best low and you're set.

MKDA = Mid to Combo, Best Low, Sidestep, Backdash/BDC, some throws to outprioritize.

The game is so simple a a child of 6 years could even play at the level of a top level player. There has to be a reason for other moves to exist, and this comes in mainly through game mechanics. More stuns, putting players into differing stagger positions, moves that go through lows or mids or highs, etc. MK just needs so much more...
(Like Satya pointed out 2 posts up)

You know what's the worst part though guys? The puzzle game probably has more depth than the real game itself.

HDTran Wrote: You know what's the worst part though guys? The puzzle game probably has more depth than the real game itself.

i won't argue with you there, he's spent so much time boasting about these new modes i'd be surprized if there was a story mode at all.

that would explain why so little of the story has been revealed, because there isn't one

i hope in time Boon+co can learn from making all these extras, if not make a bigger fighting engine, at least give it a try, and make some of the stances more evenly matched, kenshi's and scorpion's weapons were far superior compared to sub-zero's kori blade, a few 3 or 4 hit combos would be nice, i'd also like to add a tiny bit of realism, if small light weaopns like sai's are going to be used you really shouldn't have the same recovery time for double broadswords.

omg...never thought that a mk forum would have so many mk haters...no story? rotflmfaol...mk is the game with the best story ever!...but ok...you're the ones with correct thoughts...I'm just a stupid mk fan...

*X*BloodyEyes Wrote: omg...never thought that a mk forum would have so many mk haters...no story? rotflmfaol...mk is the game with the best story ever!...but ok...you're the ones with correct thoughts...I'm just a stupid mk fan...

i didn't say it had no story, i said the amount of boasting boon has done about the extra modes, it would be funny if that would be because he has done nothing else for Deception including the story, IT'S A JOKE, hence the .

The main point of what I said was lower down. Please take the time to read all of the post, not just by me but all of these so-called "MK haters" and you will find that we are not haters, but concerned fans.

seriously mr bloodyeyes, this is the third time you've misunderstood what has been said in this thread, please stop it with all these comments, you obviously do not know what we are talking about and don't understand the points we are making.

that's what I'm talking about...I'm just a stupid mk fan. I'm just enjoying every single bit of what I'm seeing of MKD...and I'm not concerned about the fighting engine cause I have complete confidence in Boon and Co...but hey...I guess VF is better after all...btw don't call me Mr, I'm probably much younger than you...

*X*BloodyEyes Wrote: omg...never thought that a mk forum would have so many mk haters...no story? rotflmfaol...mk is the game with the best story ever!...but ok...you're the ones with correct thoughts...I'm just a stupid mk fan...

We are not haters for stating the obvious problems wrong with a series we love.

*X*BloodyEyes Wrote: that's what I'm talking about...I'm just a stupid mk fan. I'm just enjoying every single bit of what I'm seeing of MKD...and I'm not concerned about the fighting engine cause I have complete confidence in Boon and Co...but hey...I guess VF is better after all...btw don't call me Mr, I'm probably much younger than you...

No offense BloodyEyes, I have played MK like you since the first. I loved the game for the story, but every MK I hoped for better gameplay, guess what? After 5 MKs, several revisions, and even enhanced versions, they never delivered. So is it stupid for the rest of us to demand better gameplay? I don't think it's that irrational.

What's irrational is that blind fans of MK, WHICH I WAS FOR A LONG TIME to this series, are still the same. People want more fatalities, returning characters, etc. but no one wants a better game, go figure. Having faith in Boon is great and all, but even you have seen what he boasted in his interviews. More fatalities, a puzzle game, a combat game, death traps, etc. Did you see any mention of really, a better fighting system overall? I HAD faith in Boon for a long time, but that blind faith made me a fan of the series that didn't want to see it get better, but to see the same thing being pushed out over and over with more extras.

It's a Wonder Crow Didn't Close This Shit Already it's manily talking about other fighters and MK not other fighters and MKD all the MK's ??????

God, read the thread before you reply, if you had any sense, this thread is by MK fans advocating for a better fighting system because we know Boon will deliver the same extras and gimmicks otherwise. This isn't one of those roleplaying threads that are all over this board.
Hell, you even put question marks to the reason you wanted this thread to close not understanding what it is about raiden_is_god.

i've been talking about Deception the whole time, expressing my expectations of it, it isn't mainly about other games at all, posts that have mentioned other games always have something to do with Deception, which we have been talknig about how much we want Deception to be an improvement, and what things we want improving. There is no reason why this thread should be closed.

FLSTYLE Wrote: i wouldn't call you die-hard fans, i'd call you ignorant fans, ignorant to the fact that without gameplay, Mortal Kombat will just fade away into computer gaming history, very slowly and very painfully. the bottom line is that a fighting game cannot last long without gameplay, if u're after the storylines etc. u're in the wrong place. Mortal Kombat is a game not a film and unless something is done it will become a crap game, Deception will probably keep the series going 4 now, because of so many new things being introduced, but Mortal Kombat can't be carried by extras forever eventually it will have to become a good "fighting" game like the rest. nuff sed

in case you havent noticed mk has been here for 12 years..and in those 12 years, not 1 mk game has been as deep as mkd...so, i dont see mk fading away anytime soon. mkda wasnt as deep as all those other fighters, yet still out sold all of them.

i under stand the want for a deeper engine..i would like to see one as well..but people sound dumb when there all "make it like tekken or vf" mk doesnt need to be like those games. mk has always set its self appart from other games..its never copied other fighting games and has always been huge for the simple fact that most people could care less about depth in the fighting engine.

most of you that do, are the same people that sit around playing vf all day long. the number of gamers that could care less about the depth, out number the gamers that do. and that will never do the series any harm. and before any of you say mkda (and mkd) sold cause of the blood and gore..that complete bullshit..i doubt 0ver 3 million people bought a game to see the same fatality over and over.

dont get me wrong, i would love to see a deeper mk..i dont want it to take away from the feel of mk. i liked the mkda engine...they should build off that instead of trying to make it something thats already out there.

HDTran Wrote: God, read the thread before you reply, if you had any sense, this thread is by MK fans advocating for a better fighting system because we know Boon will deliver the same extras and gimmicks otherwise.

i don't understand why no-one else had said anything, websites or magazines, about this problem, hardly anything has been said about this gameplay problem with Deception, they're boasting about the fact that Deception is online and all these extra modes as much as Boon has.

None of them has said something around the lines of how much gameplay has improved or got worse, which isn't a good sign, i'm looking forward to Deception, no mistake, but there'll always be something missing when i'm playing puzzle kombat, chess or konquest, that being "aren't I suppossed to be fighting on this game? o thats right it's not a good idea, because it's got no replayability, better stick to the gimmicks ans extra modes, thats what Deception has been made for, according to Boon+co." i shouldn't have to think this, hopefully something will be done.

Im not even gonna start bitching about you guys putting this game down again it's know use because you all think your right by saying other fighters are better. All I say is look at the numbers.

Very few of us advocate MK to be like VF or Tekken. But to say not to compare them would be silly. If you saw one action movie, would you not compare it to other action movies that you have seen? If you bought a clothing, would you not compare it to other clothing you wear?

When entering the 3d fighting game arena, there are some basics that 3d games have to give them more depth, but also to make them more enjoyable.

There is a reason why you use other moves, it is because they stagger, stun, go through certain hits, etc. over your fastest option even though they are slower. Moves that put you into a better fighting position and a decent throw game are BASICS to a 3d fighting game engine, not copycat specifics of other systems. In MKDA, there isn't that mechanic. Why would you use anything, but your fastest and most damaging option? All the other moves don't have any extra properties, it's just a change in speed, delay, etc. to the point where it's no longer usable. Thus MKDA is a mix between the fastest low, the fastest mid to combo, etc. For most characters in MKDA, that renders about 90-95% of their movelist completely un-needed.

I don't want more moves in MKD, I want more reasons to use the moves that aren't the fastest. Changing the damage values doesn't help when the fastest wins over everytime. I'm not even advocating for MK to be the most advanced game out there, just a game that isn't merely a shell of a system with tons of strings and moves that people never use.

The sales of home console versions hardly have to do with how much the most fighting game makes overall. For MKDA it's everything because of its absence from the arcades, which is an unfair comparison that still isn't in MK's favor if you look at all the aspects of it explained below.

Scorpio: You doubt the game sells on blood, gore and fatalities alone.. yet if you look at other countries, they didn't sell anywhere near as well. It's because only Americans love that type of stuff.

MKDA lost in sells to almost every fighting game including around the globe.

Also, Virtua Fighter is Japan's topselling fighting game and also the TOP arcade game. On average, casual players spend about $1,000 US Dollars in the arcades from the start of VF4 up until now. There are also hella tournaments around Japan at any given time, etc. MK can never hope to make the same amount of money that Tekken and Virtua Fighter does in the arcade because its gameplay doesn't hold up. And contrary to what Boon believes, the Arcade scene is still alive in most parts of the world and rakes up much more money than MKDA will ever make, just not in the US anymore.

So do not say Money = A Good fighting game, if we went by the most money made around the world we'd probably have Virtua Fighter or Tekken. To say such would be like you were Boon right now. Which is I'll give all the fans more extras, more gimmicks, and guess what? Midway will sell MKD to high amounts and Boon will equate that as being better, fighting system wise, than other fighters.

Does anyone here pay about $1,000 for each MK because its so good that they would pay to play it? No. Most of us buy the game, play it for a month at most, then let it sit. The few of us that still play it can't even equate 4 hours a week of gameplay to MKDA. For me, I know if a game is good if I can at least put in 4 hours a week to enjoy it.

yeah....sales mean something is great.

tekken went through this same situation if you remember correctly. problems that plagued tag tournament were also in tekken 4. nobody bitched about the problems that were in ttt so namco didn't bother to change that much when they made t4. but finally t4 comes out and people start bitching about the problems instantly and haven't stopped since. with t5 on the horizon and rumors that namco has fixed those problems from t4, tekken fans have to feel good about themselves for speaking about the faults instead of the good stuff. tekken fans will no doubt be getting a great game when t5 drops.

mk fans on the other hand refuse to speak their mind about the faults and in return will get a mediocre game...again. they just push those faults under the rug and pretend everything is peaches and roses in mk land. they know it's not so why don't you guys bitch at midway? there's not one person in this world who can honestly say they loved everything about mkda's fighting engine. not one person. so why don't mk fans speak their minds? i don't know. i'm asking.

fans of other series are focusing on the negative instead of the positive and the companies making the games have been addressing the negatives. so you can't put all the blame on boon and midway on this one. if fans would stop being so ignorant and addressing these concerns, boon and company would have no choice but to make it better. but fans don't want it better. they want fatalities and secrets. you know...the shit that has no replay value at all. they're just happy with going "ohh" and "ahh" for a few times while the REAL mk fans, the ones who want to play the game over and over based on a good gameplay engine, won't get that because boon once again focused on the extra shit that the "fans" wanted.

no, nobody here is hating boon or mk. i doubt boon even knows the problems in mkda. all he hears is how great the game is.

scorpio Wrote: FLSTYLE Wrote: i wouldn't call you die-hard fans, i'd call you ignorant fans, ignorant to the fact that without gameplay, Mortal Kombat will just fade away into computer gaming history, very slowly and very painfully. the bottom line is that a fighting game cannot last long without gameplay, if u're after the storylines etc. u're in the wrong place. Mortal Kombat is a game not a film and unless something is done it will become a crap game, Deception will probably keep the series going 4 now, because of so many new things being introduced, but Mortal Kombat can't be carried by extras forever eventually it will have to become a good "fighting" game like the rest. nuff sed in case you havent noticed mk has been here for 12 years..and in those 12 years, not 1 mk game has been as deep as mkd...so, i dont see mk fading away anytime soon. mkda wasnt as deep as all those other fighters, yet still out sold all of them. i under stand the want for a deeper engine..i would like to see one as well..but people sound dumb when there all "make it like tekken or vf" mk doesnt need to be like those games. mk has always set its self appart from other games..its never copied other fighting games and has always been huge for the simple fact that most people could care less about depth in the fighting engine. most of you that do, are the same people that sit around playing vf all day long. the number of gamers that could care less about the depth, out number the gamers that do. and that will never do the series any harm. and before any of you say mkda (and mkd) sold cause of the blood and gore..that complete bullshit..i doubt 0ver 3 million people bought a game to see the same fatality over and over. dont get me wrong, i would love to see a deeper mk..i dont want it to take away from the feel of mk. i liked the mkda engine...they should build off that instead of trying to make it something thats already out there.

well what do you know, another person who can't be bothered reading the whole thread before posting something that is wrong

watch how i prove you wrong just like the rest of the people who have misunderstood the points i have said.

yes Mortal Kombat has been around for 12 years, that is because until recently it has been a 2D game, 2D games are never based on deep gameplay, it's a genre that is set apart from 3D fighters, they are to different, so of course MK:D is the most deep MK so far.

All throughout this thread i have said time and time again i DO NOT want Deception to be more like Tekken and the others, Deception is about fantasy, not realism like the others.

What i'm talking about is that Deception is not a good enough fighting game to compete with these others, the fighting engine is just a way to make it better, of course until now mortal kombat has not been in competition with the others, 1 is a 2D fighter another is a 3D fighter, so everything that is said about games before Deadly Alliance is irrelevant and wrong.

i have never ever said Mortal Kombat sold because of gore and fatalities, they are gimmicks like these new modes that everyone is boasting about.
Mortal Kombat Deadly Alliance sold well because it was the 1st true 3D game made by Boon+co and it was a new rival against Tekken + co, it was fresh

Making Deception deeper won't take away the feel of MK away, it will make it better, nothing needs to be taken away, the actual fighting part of Mortal Kombat needs to be made better

when the time comes when Deception must rely on its fighting because the gimmicks have become worn out it will lose sales to the other games, because at the moment it is not good enough. This is the point of this thread, not to talk about other games, call Deception crap, or have a go at Boon+co but to suggest ways how Deception's gameplay can be improved, so that it will outsell it's rivals, and still be going strong in ten years time.

i hope that anyone who wants to post another misinformed, misunderstood opinion of what this thread is about, reads this, forgets what they were just about to type, and help out in suggesting ways to make sure the gameplay is as good as other parts of Deception.

Speaking of gameplay fallout, does anyone remember how everyone felt after MK4? Everyone said MK was dead, the gameplay sucked and its novelties no longer held it up like FLSTYLE points out. We all wanted the series to die. However, Boon just waits a few years until the scene is ripe again so that they could start doing what they did previous, but since there are so many old fans that don't want the series to die and since there are so many people who haven't been exposed to the gimmicks this generation, MKDA managed to sell well. If MK's system doesn't see improvement 3 games down the line, the series will probably have a point where we will all think MK is dead yet AGAIN.

Again, good points MENTHOL.

To Boon's defense, I don't blame him for not bringing up gameplay related material during interviews. All interviews and cover stories are sugar coated. Every one of them. I love Game Informer but even they ask the "stock interview questions". This is because if you grill the guy you're interviewing or slam the cover story for something then there's a good chance you won't get that interview or cover story the next time around. Not to mention most people just plain don't want to read about the little nuances in fighting games. When they play they'll be happy that they're there and they won't be happy if they're not but most people just don't see "We've implemented a counter hit system" as interesting reading. Eye candy sells immediately, substance sells over time.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: To Boon's defense, I don't blame him for not bringing up gameplay related material during interviews. All interviews and cover stories are sugar coated. Every one of them. I love Game Informer but even they ask the "stock interview questions". This is because if you grill the guy you're interviewing or slam the cover story for something then there's a good chance you won't get that interview or cover story the next time around. Not to mention most people just plain don't want to read about the little nuances in fighting games. When they play they'll be happy that they're there and they won't be happy if they're not but most people just don't see "We've implemented a counter hit system" as interesting reading. Eye candy sells immediately, substance sells over time.

yeah, i know Boon wouldn't want to spend a lot interview saying, yes such + such about Deception is terrible, would be funny if someone tried an interview like that though, he has done a good job advertising Deception though, most people seem convinced by it.