shakazulu Wrote: The concepts are mature, but the way they're delivered...the game comes out looking elementary, as if they were marketing to children.

Heh, that is quite interesting if one thinks about it. Good point, very good.

BTW, T, VF are NOT slow, especially VF. You can look at just VF technically, anylize the frame data, it is not slow. Play a Kaz player who can wave, or a ling, lee, nina player who knows what they're doing, too. Tekken is not slow, compared to other 3Der's. Play a Nina who whores ss+1 and haya all day and tell me if it plays slow.

Also, one must realize that the term "realism" is not consistent. Niether is much of it - realism - practical in a game. Certain elements of realism simply do not develop correctly in a virtual world.

Anyways, whatever. The same arguments have been made forever. Either way, I'm looking forward to the Big D, just not as a fighter. As an MK game and only that.

Garlador Wrote: I'm going to be honest and blunt: I don't like Virtua Fighter 4: EVO as much as MK:DA, and probably not as much as MK:D. Here's why: I'll give credit where credit is due. Virtua Fighter 4: EVO is one of the best fighters ever conceived, and it easily beats out Mortal Kombat in the graphics and sheer replay and in-depth gameplay. But... that's all it is to me. I own it and I love it, but MK has some upper-hands. Characters in Mortal Kombat are better. Most of the characters in Virtua Fighter are terribly unoriginal and boring, especially when compared to a hell-spawn who shoots a spear out of his hand, a soul-sucking sorcerer, a chick with razor teeth and her sharp-toothed, blade-armed boyfriend, a four-armed half-dragon prince, an immortal thunder god, a blue ninja who turns people into ice sculptures, an Australian crimelord with a laser eye, and a Chinese ninja who just happens to be both an African man, but also a yellow tin man on steroids. After that brief description, I still find parts of the MK gameplay more compelling, such as Konquest and, of course, Fatalities and special moves. Also, I've never really cared for Virtua Fighter's story (is there one?), especially compared to the pretty epic and expansive world that is MK. White Lotus Society, Lin Kuei, Red Dragon, Black Dragon, Edenia, Outworld, Earthrealm, Special Forces, Vampires, Oni... it's all part of a whole WORLD, while Virtua Fighter remains dead set on its tournaments. It's like Tekken only deeper. Also, let's face it, MK sounds better. You won't hear any bone-snapping sounds in VF. With MK:D on the way, online coming in full force, MK chess, Puzzle fighter, new characters, old characters, character evolutions, multiple fatalities, stage fatalities, and in-depth Konquest adventure mode, Virtua Fighter has become obsolete in my book, and this isn't just the ramblings of an MK fan-boy. MK is older, faster, louder, more original, and more brutal. Fatality.

word!

While I'm not one to spur up any arguments or such, I would really like some kind of thread to be alive on the Deception boards to show to Boon that there are fighting game players that care about the system.

Please do not jump the gun and say we are judging Deception before it comes out because we are not. We are judging Mortal Kombat's history of putting out half-baked gameplay systems and it doesn't look like it's going to change unless we demand it to change. Please don't defend Mortal Kombat's fighting system with fatalities, death traps, etc.

We're talking about the fundamentals here.
- A decent throw game that punishes blockers and has a few throws with different breaks/positioning. (MKDA's current throws are high priority mids)
- Multi-throw games for throw characters
- Counters & Reversals (Basic, but MKDA doesn't really have it. The stance reversal move is pathetic)
- Ground game (Okizeme) game getting up (both to take down the one standing over you and to keep the one down from getting up)
- Sabakis (moves beating other moves at certain stages) such as characters in VF having a move where only the early parts of the move it will beat certain mids or lows or highs at a certain point in the animation. (eblows, punches, and kicks matter of course in VF)
- Just Frames (moves changing entirely into other moves when a motion is done during certain frames)
- Staggers (character is pushed back and forth while they block that puts them either in a worse frame advantage or open for huge followups)
- Frame Advantage (as of this point, you have NO frame advantage whatsoever in MK because of its rigidness)
- Real Juggles instead of just strings (MKDA only has a few real juggles that are useful)

That is only the basics. MK definately needs a lot and to try to cover it up with our fandom and love of Mortal Kombat's story, gore, presentation, fatalities, etc. is just foolish. We should be trying to advocate a better system guys because let's face it, MK NEEDS a fanbase that cares about that, not just all the gimmicks.

As the posters above have said before, visit www.virtuafighter.com for 10 minutes and read the boards or the character information and faqs and you will feel ashamed about the simplicity of MKDA's gameplay.

MKDA = mids into Chains, a few sidesteps, lows, backdashing. Sometimes throw if they char has no good mid options.

That is all MKDA is, it's so simple it's ridiculous.

ok if you are a true mortal kombat fan then you would shut up right now because they are still working on it ok well i have to say this you make them feel bad and you really need to listen to them the backgrounds won't be finished until august and then the game will be finished by october 1st, and guess what don't talk about Ed Boon's legacy like that Your not a die hard fan like i am Peace.

Do you think Midway is interested in making a deep fighting game ala VF4?
Hell no, MK: DA overselled the most big titles and thats what they want to make, MONEY!!
And the major folks that buy MK dont even know what deep gameplay is, some of you guys think in a wrong way, the major buyers of games in general arent hardcore "I want deep gameplay" guys, the major folks are "I want Fatalitys, I want a lot of extra stuff" guys, and thats whats Midway exactly doing.
Midway,s financial situation isnt very good, they dont try any experiements.
MK: DA has been sold over 2 million times, they dont change the gameplay, they simply adding more stuff for more buyers.
The game will get very good rating in the most magazines, thats for sure, simply because of the tons of extra,s.
That the hardcore players maybe realize after a half year that the game is horrible unbalanced and not good for competition gameplay doesnt interest Midway, the hardcore guys arent the 2 million buyers there maybe 300.000 buyers, the rest want fun/fatality/cool looking gameplay.

if you have played deception, then comparison is understandable. but its not even out yet, remember, midway team could have easily made a few adjustments and tweaking to bring out a sequel to DA. But their working their asses off for this one, its not just an 'addition'. i reckon we should wait for deception, then make judgements about it.

I really hate the "you haven't played it yet" argument. What people don't seem to comprehend is we know lots of people who have played it. People have sources, and you don't even need sources to realize MKD is just like MKDA, and like I have said previously, and like TTT said in this topic, death traps are nothing but cosmetically enhanced ring outs to make fools think that it's something revolutionary or advanced.

Midway is lazy, and it knows you will buy their product, so they know worrying about gameplay is simply irrelevant when most of their loyal fans will defend the product no matter what.

Versatile Wrote: I really hate the "you haven't played it yet" argument.

But you haven't played it and the people who have played it only played 20% of it. MK:DA was very rushed. MK:Deception won't be.

Versatile Wrote: I really hate the "you haven't played it yet" argument. What people don't seem to comprehend is we know lots of people who have played it. People have sources, and you don't even need sources to realize MKD is just like MKDA, and like I have said previously, and like TTT said in this topic, death traps are nothing but cosmetically enhanced ring outs to make fools think that it's something revolutionary or advanced. Midway is lazy, and it knows you will buy their product, so they know worrying about gameplay is simply irrelevant when most of their loyal fans will defend the product no matter what.

OK just STFU while your ahead. The games fine there not lazy they did it too make the game more fun so its not boring. Would you rather have a invisible wall I wouldn't.

OH an let me guess you so called sources played the game at E3 what a great thing they played a game that was 20% complete hmmm don't you think they can change if they want.

SO wait until the Fucker's out. I would bet you 100,000,000 Dollars you couldn't do any better. I would love to see all you try to make a top selling game. If you don;t like what there doing simply don;t buy it. Because the rest of us true Diehard fans don;t care. Your not gonna stop us from buying it.

Because it seems like you guys aren;t satisfied with it. What I do when I'm not satisfied with a game I don;t buy it. So if your gonna buy it then shut up. Because no one wants to hear you bitch and put down this awesome game.

I didn't really like DA but I didn;t bitch about it.

Me and my friend had just a discussion about this, like Garlador said VF4 can be more well developed then MK in general, but MK will always be more appelative because of the fighter ́s, Storyline and the Easter Eggs, MK have a storyline that is always expanding that doesn ́t focus solely on a tournament.

well, sure that MKD won't be as deep as VF4 evo, but in E3 build they didn't have combo brakers, characters didnt have all their moves, so we must be patient and wait till release day. MK is all about fun and if i want to play deeper games i will pick VF, Tekken or SC2.

Raiden_is_god Wrote: SO wait until the Fucker's out. I would bet you 100,000,000 Dollars you couldn't do any better. I would love to see all you try to make a top selling game. If you don;t like what there doing simply don;t buy it. Because the rest of us true Diehard fans don;t care. Your not gonna stop us from buying it.

i wouldn't call you die-hard fans, i'd call you ignorant fans, ignorant to the fact that without gameplay, Mortal Kombat will just fade away into computer gaming history, very slowly and very painfully.

the bottom line is that a fighting game cannot last long without gameplay, if u're after the storylines etc. u're in the wrong place.

Mortal Kombat is a game not a film and unless something is done it will become a crap game, Deception will probably keep the series going 4 now, because of so many new things being introduced, but Mortal Kombat can't be carried by extras forever eventually it will have to become a good "fighting" game like the rest.

nuff sed

"nuff sed"?

So you ́re telling me that if Midway discarded the whole plot for the game, just shot the characters into the game and put a Single player mode and a Vs mode, the game would sell as much if it had a storyline (and the easter eggs for it)?
The fact that you don ́t seem to realize that the game both need Gameplay AND storyline shows that you ́re the ignorant, not the "die-hard" fans.

[quote]Mortal Kombat is a game not a film and unless something is done it will become a crap game, Deception will probably keep the series going 4 now, because of so many new things being introduced, but Mortal Kombat can't be carried by extras forever eventually it will have to become a good "fighting" game like the rest.[/quote]

lol, a little ironic that some games will always have a more interesting story then 60% of the movies out there.

true fans want the best out of mk and dont want the gameplay to be boring. you say that VF and soul calibur are slow? they are faster and move more fluidly than MkDA could ever hope to. MKDA is rough, shallow, and slow. MKD doesnt look to different, and dont tell me it isnt done because MKDA didnt change much from E3. just because i dont only want new fatalities and stage fatalities doesnt mean im not a fan . i want mk to be the best and compare to VF tekken and SC in its own unique way. but as long as yall just complain about not having your one character in the game and having bad fatalities with no extras then thats all Midway and boon is going to work on. sad thing is, they will get money from yall and will bring out the same crap for mk 7 because when MKD comes out yall are going to complain about the unrealistic blood, bad fatalities, and that one character that is not in it. you know, maybe if the gameplay was better, you all wouldnt care as much about the bad fatalities and lack of extras.

Scorpion-Milo Wrote: "nuff sed"? So you ́re telling me that if Midway discarded the whole plot for the game, just shot the characters into the game and put a Single player mode and a Vs mode, the game would sell as much if it had a storyline (and the easter eggs for it)? The fact that you don ́t seem to realize that the game both need Gameplay AND storyline shows that you ́re the ignorant, not the "die-hard" fans. [quote]Mortal Kombat is a game not a film and unless something is done it will become a crap game, Deception will probably keep the series going 4 now, because of so many new things being introduced, but Mortal Kombat can't be carried by extras forever eventually it will have to become a good "fighting" game like the rest.[/quote] lol, a little ironic that some games will always have a more interesting story then 60% of the movies out there.

yes nuff sed u wouldn't understand so don't bother askin about it

i didn't say the whole plot should be discarded nor was it wot i implied, please take more time to think about wot has been said before you jump to conclusions.

A game is a game not an interative movie, sure there should be a story but it shouldn't be wot the whole idea of the game is based on. fighting games are about fighting, it's wot makes a gd fighting game wot it is.

Mortal Kombat in its 2D form did this well but Deadly Alliance didn't nor will Deception if it's the same. because of this it won't be as gd as other fighting games, it cant live off it's storylines, extras and graphics forever

Raiden_is_god Wrote: OK just STFU while your ahead. The games fine there not lazy they did it too make the game more fun so its not boring. Would you rather have a invisible wall I wouldn't. OH an let me guess you so called sources played the game at E3 what a great thing they played a game that was 20% complete hmmm don't you think they can change if they want. SO wait until the Fucker's out. I would bet you 100,000,000 Dollars you couldn't do any better. I would love to see all you try to make a top selling game. If you don;t like what there doing simply don;t buy it. Because the rest of us true Diehard fans don;t care. Your not gonna stop us from buying it. Because it seems like you guys aren;t satisfied with it. What I do when I'm not satisfied with a game I don;t buy it. So if your gonna buy it then shut up. Because no one wants to hear you bitch and put down this awesome game. I didn't really like DA but I didn;t bitch about it.

Ok, this is driving me nuts. You basically said to wait until the game is released before voicing concerns. Right? When the game gets released it'll be TOO LATE to change anything. Why do the people that accept any MK product as flawless (excuse the pun) see themselves as the better fans? We're better fans because we take what's given to us no matter what. That's not a good fan. That's someone who really doesn't care about the future of the product.

Let's say Ed Boon makes an announcement that he had a change of heart and now the cast will be made up of thirty-two versions of Hulk Hogan. Original Hulk, Scuba gear Hulk, Paratrooper Hulk, etc. Would you be happy? Would that be good for MK's future? Would you snap at people who raise concerns over that decision? Tell you what. I'll make it more realistic. Let's say Ed Boon has a change of heart and decides that blood no longer has a place in MK. No blood, no fatalities. Does that make you happy? I guarantee that there'd be over 100 topics on this board asking "WHY, ED, WHY?!". No fatalities? Let's voice some concern! Maybe something can be done! It's the same exact thing with something like counter hits. No counter hits? Let's voice some concern! Maybe something can be done! Tell me the difference? Blood is part of MK's personality so not having it takes something away from MK. Counter hits are part of a fighting game's quality so not having it takes something away from the quality of the game. I've asked a whole bunch of questions here. All joking aside I honestly would like to know the answers.

^^^^^^ Very good and clear point.

TonyTheTiger Wrote: Ok, this is driving me nuts. You basically said to wait until the game is released before voicing concerns. Right? When the game gets released it'll be TOO LATE to change anything. Why do the people that accept any MK product as flawless (excuse the pun) see themselves as the better fans? We're better fans because we take what's given to us no matter what. That's not a good fan. That's someone who really doesn't care about the future of the product. Let's say Ed Boon makes an announcement that he had a change of heart and now the cast will be made up of thirty-two versions of Hulk Hogan. Original Hulk, Scuba gear Hulk, Paratrooper Hulk, etc. Would you be happy? Would that be good for MK's future? Would you snap at people who raise concerns over that decision? Tell you what. I'll make it more realistic. Let's say Ed Boon has a change of heart and decides that blood no longer has a place in MK. No blood, no fatalities. Does that make you happy? I guarantee that there'd be over 100 topics on this board asking "WHY, ED, WHY?!". No fatalities? Let's voice some concern! Maybe something can be done! It's the same exact thing with something like counter hits. No counter hits? Let's voice some concern! Maybe something can be done! Tell me the difference? Blood is part of MK's personality so not having it takes something away from MK. Counter hits are part of a fighting game's quality so not having it takes something away from the quality of the game. I've asked a whole bunch of questions here. All joking aside I honestly would like to know the answers.

The thing is, blood and gore are a big part of MK. Depth, on the other hand, isn't. You're wanting something from MK that was never there. I would really enjoy some depth, but I don't need depth to have fun in a video game. I have no problem with the gameplay as it is right now. I know I'm gonna enjoy this game because of the cool fearures (Puzzle Kombat, Chess Kombat, Konquest, Deathtraps, Multi-Tiered levels, Stage Weapons, New Characters, Returning Characters, Online, ect.)

cartmansp Wrote: TonyTheTiger Wrote: I know I'm gonna enjoy this game because of the cool fearures (Puzzle Kombat, Chess Kombat, Konquest, Deathtraps, Multi-Tiered levels, Stage Weapons, New Characters, Returning Characters, Online, ect.)

See this is what bugs me and other players and what is seen as a problem.

Where is Fighting on that list.


Seems like most fans look forward to MK for everything but the fighting, even though it's a fighting game.

?????????????????

I feel that this needs to change.

PS: Nice coverup on the extra posts .

exactly what has the world come to when fighting no longer has a place in a fighting game?

Bleed Wrote: cartmansp Wrote: TonyTheTiger Wrote: I know I'm gonna enjoy this game because of the cool fearures (Puzzle Kombat, Chess Kombat, Konquest, Deathtraps, Multi-Tiered levels, Stage Weapons, New Characters, Returning Characters, Online, ect.) See this is what bugs me and other players and what is seen as a problem. Where is Fighting on that list. Seems like most fans look forward to MK for everything but the fighting, even though it's a fighting game. ?????????????????

If you had read my whole post, you would've seen I don't need a deep fighting engine to have fun. And that's all I look for in a video game, fun.

I never said i didn;t want the game to get better I said its great as it is. The fighting system has improved a lot over the years. But I ain't saying midways lazy like all you said dressing up ringouts. WTF your saying you rather have a gay invisible wall.

Also for the guy that says wait until the games out like MIdways gonna change anything.

All you guys are saying that you know the fighting systems the same. How because you have ppl who played the 20% complete version. YOU DON'T KNOW THATS WATS PISSING ME OFF. Then you have the balls to say it's gonna suck like DA.

Now FLSTYLE(and a few others not many) are right on when he said he cares about the game which I 100% agree with him there. But he's not saying that this games gonna suck. Just the next time around they need to be more in depth with it. I TOTALLY AGREE. But for all of you complaining about a game you haven't played STFU until you play it. Now if they don;t fix it by MK7 then I'll be bitching with you guys.

Seriously.. there's more and more people complaining that they want better fighting. If the MK Team has not seen this rise of criticism about MK they'd be dumb not to make good choices for MK7's fighting.

I like MK:DA for what it is.. and people saying that MK never had fighting depth are absolutely correct. How in the hell do you complain about a game that use to incorporate about 10 attacks, all of which the same for every character (aside their own personal specials) to a game with over 30 unique attacks per-character plus a weapon style.

MK:DA was the Teams first true shot at a 3D fighting game that at least incorporated a fighting engine that held characteristics of Soul Calibur (weapons) and games like Tekken and Virtua fighter with the other two fighting styles.

Thats why there aren't an assload of moves (yet, hopefully) and more manual ways to strings/juggles etc.. etc..

I do believe that speed, more manual combos, and strings are what we're going to get in MK:D. How much of it I'm not sure.