Something someone posted on the Virtuafighter.com forums that I found interesting.


Having character training traits be exploited, by giving them abilities that other characters of different disciplines lack.


[ Example ]

A throw heavy character, like a wrestler, Judo, Aikido user.


These characters would be able to reverse throws, because they are proficient in that art.


A strike heavy character, like Karate, Kung fu, Tae Kwon Do.

These would be able to just frame block resulting in parries or early recovery for blocks. They could have more auto block attacks also.


There could be more traits like that, depending on the character's body type also.

For example, bigger and slower characters could have a little invincibility during the start up of some throw animations. Like the Hulk in MVC.


Something like this could cause some balance problems, but it might still be something to mess around with.

Special move ideas for Rain.

Some of these are repeated from an old post.


Rain's power would be like a Telekinetic version of sub zero's, but with moisture, not temperature.

He could use the moisture in the air to make an opponent levitate, or get caught in the particles.

So....The super kick, would look like this.

Separate the move in to 2 parts.

1st move = you do some kind of power kick that makes the opponent fly back or end a juggle.

2nd move = Before the opponent hit's the floor, he could do a aerial particle trap, making the opponent fall slowly once they run in to it, like moving through jelly. It only slows them for like 1 or 2 seconds.

If close to the wall, the particle catch doesn't work.

Rain would have to dash in, and hit the opponent before they fall through the Particle Trap.

Once in the PTrap, the opponent can not be relaunched.

So you can't start another Normal juggle after the PTrap, the bounce could change to something heavy, like VF or DOA, instead of the MKD and Tekken style high bounce.

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For his projectiles, I'd have him use the moisture in the air to create a projectile that looks like Sub Zero's ice blast in MK3, but it's water.

Or he could use the opponent's blood as the projectile also.

If there is blood near you on the floor, Instead of water, you would automatically use blood for some of the moves. ( use logic for this )

Or some moves only work once you hit the opponent and knock some out of them. Finish the combo with their own blood as a projectile.

I've had that idea for a long time now.

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He could create a water trap, or water ball like in the old games too.
Have it be similar to Reptile's energy ball.

Or have it be like Scorpion's fire eruption.
Rain would close his fist, and a big splash of water would appear around and hit the opponent, catching them at the same time.

Then Rain could move them around as he sees fit.

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Maybe instead of water, he just has some kind of telekinetic energy that looks like it.
That would allow for some electric moves, like a static attack to the opponent’s head that stuns.

Maybe a mind reading move, that let’s you rewind the fight 2 seconds and counter an attack that previously hit you. Or maybe cause some slow motion, so you can easily counter an attack.

This can’t happen too often though, maybe you can use it 1 time per round.

There could be other ways to do it, instead of rewinding the fight.

Give him some reversals, and maybe a throw, that makes the opponent do a combo, Rain would automatically parry every hit, and do some kind of counter hit. ( The camera would zoom in during this, like a scene from a kung fu movie. )

Casual fans seem to like the dial combos, because of how the look.


I think there is a way to keep that look, but make them work better.


[ Example ]

1) Have dial combos that only work if the previous hit connected as a counter.

Looks like the old 2D MK dial combos. These could be up to 3 hits, but do little damage. = Like a med strength hit.

It's like substituting the extra damage from 1 hit, with an extra couple of hits for the same total damage. Just to make look cooler.

2) If the dial combo can be done even if it misses, it would still do light damage. If the dial combo does over 3 hits, you can JF block. Then it could cause more damage.

If it does a little more damage, it could have a slightly longer recovery on block.

3) Have auto combos that only work if the first hit connects, clean or counter.
Like in T5, King's ff+4, or in SC3, Mitsurugi's df+V+K. These could be quick 2 -3 hit combos.

4) The end of the dial combo would result in the reaction they would of had from just the jab, or a power attack = Safe on hit and block.

If the last hit of that dial combo can lead to more damage, then it can be blocked = Tap BLK, or d+BLK at the right time. Either that, or the next attack can be blocked.

If it's a special counter hit dial combo, the opponent might be stunned, or fall down. They can't break out of it.

5) Longer combos can be done from this, but the opponent can get out of them like with a normal string. Or with a timed guard if they are stunned.


6) Some stuns can allow for dial combos to work = just how with a launcher, you can do a juggle. Different attacks could cause this kind of stun = special attacks to the mid section, or head. An attack to the head would cause a more severe stun.

7) If the first attack of one of these dial combos = the properties of a normal launcher, then it can end with a pop up, or a collapse stun, etc.

8) Some dial combos could be like super moves, maybe using a chi meter or something like that.

so i'm confused, just answer me this, will it be anything like the fighting in Shaolin Monks

exactly what part of the game play are you talking about?

The standing face to face, or the aerial combat?

Are you asking about the actual game that Midway is working on, or the ideas being posted here?

Be more specific, so we can answer correctly.

Face to face

From what I've read, Face to Face combat in the actual game is probably going to be about the same as MKD, not shaolin Monks.

The shaolin Monks fighting mechanics were more for custom dial combos, instead of the limited dial combos in MKD.

You'll have to know how the combos go, in order to make the fights "flow".

In MKSM, you could do almost any combination, and end up with a cool looking combo.


The dial combos look nice, but they aren't fair. At least, the way they are used in MK games.

After the MKD Breakers run out, if you land the first hit of a dial combo, the opponent can't do anything about it. They can only sit and watch as you do a 15 hit combo or whatever.

That's not only cheap, but it makes little combos not worth doing.
Why would you do a 3 hit combo, when you can do a 15 hitter just as easy?



What the game play fans are asking for is a string system, so you can block during a combo after every 1-3 hits.

The attacker would have to change his attacks, from high to low, or punch to kick to throw...............

All kinds of combinations to fool the opponent in to taking another hit.

This requires more skill, and its fair to the opponent, because they aren't helpless.


The only way I can think of right now for dial combos to stay, is if they are short. 2 - 4 hitters.

they should do little damage, and not launch, unless the first and last hits have the speed of a launcher.

This starts to go in to the technical details of different attack types.

Dial combos can be used, but they would need to be designed in such a way, so they don't hinder the game play mechanics.

It needs to be fair for both players.

Hey, Bleed, just a quick question: What frame disadvantage does a throw in Tekken leave the attacker at if it is escaped, or does it put the attacker and the escapee in the same position, meaning no disadvantage at all?
...And is this generic to all characters/throws?

I'm getting to something here: I've got an idea how this could work in MK.

For T5, I'm not sure about the frame advantage or disadvantage on a basic escape. I think it's even.


But...


Some throws, when escaped leave the opponent in a certain position.

Facing away
Facing side ways
Close
Far


I'm asking around at Tekkenzaibatsu, but this is all I could get so far.
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What I'd have for it is something like this.


Have it work like the frame advantage or disadvantage you get from blocked attacks, but applied to throw escapes.

Like a varying reward system depending on the usefulness of the throw.

If it's low damage with a long escape window, the throwing character gets frame advantage if it's escaped.

If it's med damage with a med escape window, then nobody gets any frame advantage

If it's a power or command throw with a short escape window, the guy escaping gets frame advantage

The frame advantage or disadvantage would sometimes include leaving a character in a certain pose.



Escape windows was referring to the. 4, 6 or 8 frames....you have once grabbed, to escape the throw.

easy to escape = thrower gets advantage ( for like 20% damage throw) Use this throw as a pressure move. If it’s escaped, it acts as a guard break letting you get another hit in. ( They might have to do a just frame block to defend during the opening)

regular escape timing = even ( for like 30% damage throw)

hard to escape = escapee gets frame advantage ( for like a 45% damage throw)

In Tekken, though they are well designed, there is no life to the throw escapes: they simply back out of the throw. Perhaps, throw reversals could be used for wrestling characters, where they would reverse the throw into one of their own (This can be escaped)

Your idea about the different strength throws having different escape properties is good. I like it. They could have varying animations for the escape as well:

A weak grab that gives the thrower advantage when escaped would look like this: Hsu Hao grabs Sonya. Sonya manages to escape in the long window allowed. This results in Sonya aiming a punch at Hsu Hao's face. Hsu hao aborts the grab to catch the punch, he then throws her fist down, acting like a parry. This gives him the frame advantage you were talking about: It just does it in a flashy way.

A medium strength/escape window grab: Sub-Zero tries to grab Scorpion, but Scorpion manages to initiate an escape. The escape involves Scorpion pulling Sub's arms apart and round in an open circular trap.
Sub-Zero anticipates, and to prevent an attack, kicks off with his foot on Scorpion's chest. Scorpion is knocked back and Sub-Zero falls and auto-rolls away. The grab is now disengaged with neither combatant at an advantage.

A power or command throw/short escape window: Kano attacks Mavado with this throw type. Mavado escapes the throw by using a chi-sao Wing Chun technique, trapping Kano's arms. Mavado delivers a punch to Kano's nose, temporarily blinding him, disengaging the grab and giving Mavado the advantage.

!!!!!!!!!

Hell yeah

Great ideas, I hadn’t though that far ahead.

I can't really remember something like that having been done before.

Well Paul Phoenix Can do a special reverse against an ultimate tackle. Everybody can do a basic reverse on it too, if they press 1+2.

But the way you described it combined with what I posted....

As far as I know, that'd be something unique for MK.

Yep. That'd be the kind of scenario where Mk can actually exceed Tekken in some respects. Right now, it isn't even equal, it's below par.
These are the kind of concepts for the perfect Mk game, but before they even approach this kind of stuff, they have to have the basics nailed.

I wish someone would explain the fighting game staples to the MK team. If breakers are their idea of a good combo prevention system, then they truly have no idea.

I see improvement as a chain, where each detail altered effects the next component in the line. You get rid of dial-a-combos; there's no need for breakers, you make throws escapable; bye, bye, infinites (for all intents and purposes), you have ground options; infinites are also abated, you have a good, solid risk vs. reward system; you actually have a reason to use most of your moves list...

Well, if Midway learn the basics then maybe there is hope.

From what I've seen them do in the past, and their comments about the game play.

It's like, they just don't get it, or are oblivious to a lot of the important stuff.

Maybe for MK 11 or later, they might be able to catch up to these other games out now.

Everybody takes a while to learn.

It seems like they just don’t play these games enough to understand them.

I can understand that they are very busy though, but there are ways around that problem.

Hire people that do...

More Sirlin

This is an article Sirlin got on Gamasutra. It's kinda off topic, but I figured peeps in this thread would enjoy it. Anyone who has read sirlins work will instantly recognize this. Anywho, enjoy.

Thanks, that was an interesting read.

To try and get some more ideas going....

Check out these Tekken 5 matches, and note things you DO, or DO NOT like about the way the fights look, or whatever.

See if we can come up with something better for MK.

Go here

There are move video links here Scroll down to the lower part of the page and look for the links to game play movie threads.

Post links to other games too, if you can think of any to work with.

I absolutely agree about having one style that is balanced and useful rather than having three styles if I'm only gonna use one. Develop 2-3 hand to hand styles for a character and 1 or 2 weapons (some styles could be shared between several characters if necessary) and have them chose 1 HtH and 1 weapon on the character select screen. This way you can have well developed styles and the player can choose the options that best suit his or her method of using that char. For example: 3 hand to hand styles, 1 power based with few combos but good for hit and run players (you know who you are! lol), 1 speed style that is weak but great for combos and counters, and perhaps one balanced style that incorporates elements of both to be more versatile. Develop these styles so they are more robust, balanced, and multipurposeful and allow the player the option of which style they like at the beginning of the match. Now choose your weapon option: (Example: Scorpion could have Ninja Sword and Kusari-gama (kama sickle on a chain) or even just use his Spear to fight using the Kusari-gama style like he does with his MK Shaolin Monks Spear specials. These are awesome and fit him far better than a sword style (for those of you who haven't seen these DO SO, Scorp fans rejoice!!!). On another note:I like combos and I use them. I really don't like "poke and run away" matches where everyone does like 3 hits at a time and try to pick each others life bar down with an overuse of crouching jabs, blocking, and pesky reversal-whores that plague Virtua Fighter, DOA, Tekken, and Soul Caliber. Then again I'm a minority when it comes to this playing style as most people are perfectly content with hit and run games and button masher fests. I spend long hours figuring out what moves can be linked into what

I think Mk could do with being alot more like that. The only real thing I dislike about T5, is the way the escapes are done. If MK uses throw escapes, I'd prefer them as we described a couple of posts up.
The escapes in Tekken have no real animation to them and could benefit from some if MK used this system (which it needs to).
The fast, flowing hit, block, hit, block rythym of the fights in those videos looks a lot more cinematic then the jerky dial-a-combos in MK. I like that.
It's a lot less juggle based and I think MK should keep its juggle basis, but at the same time have the rythym and speed look as fluid as these fights.

I think the throw escape idea we come up with would be better than the one in T5.

It's a similar idea, but taken further.

I like T5's throw escape animations though, where they actually do something to escape, rather than just a push away like in the old Tekken games.


To remedy the poke an run look of the fights, there could be a Topple system. Similar to the critical stun in the DOA games.

It would work like a Juggle...

A strong hit would initiate the stun, then you can do a full string against the standing opponent, like you would be able to do during a juggle.


Some attacks could also have extra hits if they hit as a counter.

Like, instead of just doing extra damage, you would get to add a couple more hits, like a dial combo in MK3. It's like a visual substitute, or a fair way to keep dial combos.

Add to that some short combos that lose block points if the first hit is a counter. If you could normally block the 2nd and 3rd hits, on a counter, you can't. But only certain types of combos can do that.

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New idea....

What if a well timed throw escape works like a parry.

If you do the escape a little later in the escape window, you get a fancy escape animation. If you do it real early, you just do a parry, or slap the opponent's hands out of the way, then you have a pretty big window to counter attack.

Let's say, you get around 6 frames to escape a throw.
If you escape within the first 3 frames, you do a parry.
If you escape within the last 3 frames, you just escape. Neither player gets a major advantage.

Maybe this would only work for throws that cause major damage, or that can lead to it.

Don't know if this has be mentioned, anyway i really really really hope that Armageddon supports Keyboards this time around.

Typing with the controller suck @$$!!!

Not sure what that has to do with this thread.

cant wait to play u online in the new mk. i will be lookin for u

Can someone repost the videos of the glitches? Please?

This is the only sticky that comes close to what i'm talking about.

Well if you online and you talking to players, you don't want to use the controler and waste time trying to type one word, when you can be typing many in seconds.

Plus not everone here is into using the USB headset.

As long as it's wireless and has many shortcuts like GG and cheat/cheater warnings.

I don't like the whole headset thing either.