3d digitized characters is a reality...NOW...just look at MK4, Enter the Matix, and any current WWE game...
But MK would look better without the digitized characters...have you seen any of the really good looking Xbox games? Just check put Dead or Alive 3/Ultimate, Fight Club, Kakuto Chojin, Tao Feng, etc.?
Those are some really good looking fighting games that dont use digitized actors or super high polygonal models...they use other graphical effects/tricks like bump-mapping, normal-mapping, realistic lighting, pixel shaders, etc. the technology to have realistic looking games is available on the Xbox right now.

Krymnsyn Wrote: 3d digitized characters is a reality...NOW...just look at MK4, Enter the Matix, and any current WWE game...

But it seems that Urbansmooth wants to use a completely new way of doing this, one that has only been used in making multi-million dollar effects in big budget movies or proven to be able to be done in real time.

Krymnsyn Wrote: But MK would look better without the digitized characters...have you seen any of the really good looking Xbox games? Just check put Dead or Alive 3/Ultimate, Fight Club, Kakuto Chojin, Tao Feng, etc.? Those are some really good looking fighting games that dont use digitized actors or super high polygonal models...they use other graphical effects/tricks like bump-mapping, normal-mapping, realistic lighting, pixel shaders, etc. the technology to have realistic looking games is available on the Xbox right now.

It all depends on the development team, what they want to do with MK and what they are capable of. The games mentioned above are great examples of what is possible on the xbox.

the day that mk has 3d real digitized characters, is the day I won't play anymore mk, mk or any other game.
I don't want games to be real, I want games to have that dose of fantasy, if the mk characters were 3d real life digitized whatever how fun would it be to watch them? imo it wouldn't be fun at all...
I really love the way they're doing it, I hope they never turn to that side of 3d real...bla bla bla
mk deception ROCKS, and the models are amazing the way they are, if the characters were 3d etc etc etc, they couldn't dress them in cool blue/yellow/red outfits, they would look like clowns...

btw I think you guys are arguing with a rock, you gave him 4354354335454341 reasons that mk can't and won't move into that direction, technologically/ethically/economically speaking
but still he doesn't admit it...keep dreaming

Bleed I believe you touched apon multiple forms of mk games... I believe this will be the case. For one I think Ed has hinted at MK becomming much more than a fighting game and planned in the future for a large expanded universe. And really were at a juncture now where it would be perfect time to get this going. Puzzle combat, chess combat, konquest.. it would be easy to branch off... well done "konquest" type games, a 2d line of fighters as well as a 3d it would be a great idea... and honstly midway should follow suite, MK is their flagship line... really it's one of the few things that's keeping the company together.
I think what they should do is have a seperate team over the other games. This would be great because we may get an MK title every year or so... like it would be great to get a mini project a year from now to hold us over from mk6.

Knowledge31u Wrote: Civilized? That's a laugh. I think what you meant to say is Urban is indeed more barbaric then civilized for wanting realistic death sequences to realistic people. He is a perfect example of the effects of a desensitized society. We play video games to have an enjoyable experience. Whether you enjoy a comical death sequence, or a realistic execution either way we are victims of someone with power deciding that simulating death was alright for us to experience. I know that I have been affected by it because I enjoy playing MK, Manhunt, and GTA. But the reason behind me enjoying them are I am able to separate myself from reality and partake in a fantasy experience. GTA is very comical on their approach, while Manhunt tries to disturb the viewer, which is probably why I thought the game was very shallow. In any case I am much happier that Boon and the gang are doing their best to separate MK from reality because its quite obvious there are people out there who couldn't do it on their own. Video Games are not the cause of all incidents of violence, but in some cases with fragile people they are.

Knowledge31u Wrote: I'm looking back to the first MK and thinking of the fatalities. Hmm none of them seem possible. You can't uppercut someone head off, or ripp their head and spine out with a single hand. I also don't believe you can incinerate someone by breathing fire or blowing a kiss. Also ripping someone's heart out would involve getting around that ribcage thing which protects it. Now looking after the first MK, I realized the fatalities in the following games only get more over the top. What game have you all been playing to be convinced that MK was soo realistic?

well now after reading the two responses to my post, i'd like to preface my rebutle by saying you are a fucking moron.
by civilized i meant he wasnt being a pompus idiot, he was trying to discuss the topic in a controled manner.
on another note what are you some sort of psychologist, "He is a perfect example of the effects of a desensitized society... either way we are victims of someone with power deciding that simulating death was alright for us to experience."
what makes you the expert on this stuff, are you saying that the people making these games are different from everyone else? that they can handle the violence, and the public cant. are you saying they just make violent games cause they know they can make more money, not becuase they enjoy violence as well. they're not forcing the violence down our throats, because i'm pretty sure we do it ourselves. they just make the games. were not required to buy them.
if you havent figured it out, humans are barbaric by nature. look at any war. have you ever heard of one that didnt involve killing? and hell i bet they were all playing violent video games. if some one wasnt already making these games, we'd be making them ourselves.
i consider video games to be an art form. and art by definition is life reflected back at us through the artist's eyes. and so death is part of life, and the many forms of death are part of life so i see nothing wrong in having them in a game.
"I am able to separate myself from reality and partake in a fantasy experience."
well i think you seperated yourself too much. because your fantasy of everyone living like the brady bunch isnt going to happen. people like violence. there are crazy people out there that are influenced by games like these, but those people should be recognized as such and seperated from it. though reguardless of the game's influence usually if some ones going to run through their school with guns and bombs killing everyone their going to do it. anyway i'd be afraid more of some one like you thats experienced war like situations, of snaping and killing other people then some kid that sits around in his room playing violent video games.
like you said we are victims of someone with power deciding that simulating death was alright for us to experience. so maybe you shouldnt be a soldier because the training, or actual battle could have too much strain on your mental capactiy and you'll go section 8. plus you already have all the weapons training, whats stoping you from using those skills on some one else? so in the long run you seem to be more threatening to some one elses well being than Urban does.
and the second response........
i never claimed that mk was realistic, none of them. Also why are you even posting at a message board that revolves around a game that got its popularity because of the gore, and a realism factor that rivaled games like street fighter. because to me it seems that every time someone mentions the word fatality you start moaning, about how sadistic we all are for enjoying a game for the same reason it became popular.
also i never claimed the fatals needed to be completely realistic, but should revert back to the bar that mk1 and mk2 set. those fatals were fun, short, to the point, not over the top, and easy to do. where as in mkt every fatal was a joke, impossible to execute, and were just embarassing to the series. i think some of the fatals from mk4 were some of the best, they had torn limbs and what not but with out all the gorey flesh, and i found them to be some of my favorites.
i think that to make mk better than it is, would be to keep with the current technology, make the characters slightly less exaggerated in propotion, keep the fatals simple, but creative, and not over kill. like there is no point in cutting some ones head off then ripping their arms off too.
also there are two kinds of realism here, there is real life realism and then there is MK "realism" and i say realism losely here. becuase in any fantasy world there are slightly different physical laws and there are fire balls, demons, special powers, other dimenions, and goro. so i think Urban wants a MK game that resembles the traditonal MK "realism" similar to that of the first mk movie. it was entertaining, but not over kill, with gore or any blood.
when all is said and done, humans are violent, we will continue to be. so just accept it, and realize its better that Urban likes violent games instead of being violent.

FoDeah Wrote: Now looking after the first MK, I realized the fatalities in the following games only get more over the top. What game have you all been playing to be convinced that MK was soo realistic? well now after reading the two responses to my post, i'd like to preface my rebutle by saying you are a fucking moron. by civilized i meant he wasnt being a pompus idiot, he was trying to discuss the topic in a controled manner. on another note what are you some sort of psychologist, "He is a perfect example of the effects of a desensitized society... either way we are victims of someone with power deciding that simulating death was alright for us to experience." what makes you the expert on this stuff, are you saying that the people making these games are different from everyone else? that they can handle the violence, and the public cant. are you saying they just make violent games cause they know they can make more money, not becuase they enjoy violence as well. they're not forcing the violence down our throats, because i'm pretty sure we do it ourselves. they just make the games. were not required to buy them. if you havent figured it out, humans are barbaric by nature. look at any war. have you ever heard of one that didnt involve killing? and hell i bet they were all playing violent video games. if some one wasnt already making these games, we'd be making them ourselves. i consider video games to be an art form. and art by definition is life reflected back at us through the artist's eyes. and so death is part of life, and the many forms of death are part of life so i see nothing wrong in having them in a game. "I am able to separate myself from reality and partake in a fantasy experience." well i think you seperated yourself too much. because your fantasy of everyone living like the brady bunch isnt going to happen. people like violence. there are crazy people out there that are influenced by games like these, but those people should be recognized as such and seperated from it. though reguardless of the game's influence usually if some ones going to run through their school with guns and bombs killing everyone their going to do it. anyway i'd be afraid more of some one like you thats experienced war like situations, of snaping and killing other people then some kid that sits around in his room playing violent video games. like you said we are victims of someone with power deciding that simulating death was alright for us to experience. so maybe you shouldnt be a soldier because the training, or actual battle could have too much strain on your mental capactiy and you'll go section 8. plus you already have all the weapons training, whats stoping you from using those skills on some one else? so in the long run you seem to be more threatening to some one elses well being than Urban does. and the second response........ i never claimed that mk was realistic, none of them. Also why are you even posting at a message board that revolves around a game that got its popularity because of the gore, and a realism factor that rivaled games like street fighter. because to me it seems that every time someone mentions the word fatality you start moaning, about how sadistic we all are for enjoying a game for the same reason it became popular. also i never claimed the fatals needed to be completely realistic, but should revert back to the bar that mk1 and mk2 set. those fatals were fun, short, to the point, not over the top, and easy to do. where as in mkt every fatal was a joke, impossible to execute, and were just embarassing to the series. i think some of the fatals from mk4 were some of the best, they had torn limbs and what not but with out all the gorey flesh, and i found them to be some of my favorites. i think that to make mk better than it is, would be to keep with the current technology, make the characters slightly less exaggerated in propotion, keep the fatals simple, but creative, and not over kill. like there is no point in cutting some ones head off then ripping their arms off too. also there are two kinds of realism here, there is real life realism and then there is MK "realism" and i say realism losely here. becuase in any fantasy world there are slightly different physical laws and there are fire balls, demons, special powers, other dimenions, and goro. so i think Urban wants a MK game that resembles the traditonal MK "realism" similar to that of the first mk movie. it was entertaining, but not over kill, with gore or any blood. when all is said and done, humans are violent, we will continue to be. so just accept it, and realize its better that Urban likes violent games instead of being violent.

Hey, what happened to being civilised? Knowledge is basically saying that there is a line...and realistic people killing themselves for entertainment is crossing it.
I don't think that this is an unfair comment either, as MK has never been about realistic people killing themselves.
He has obviously seen some stuff that supports his statements, as have alot of other people, the world we live in can be a terrible place, so we don't need the debate of psychotic video games, or encouraging violence springing up in our escapism.
I also hate it when people start being personally offensive with swearing..."your a f**king moron", etc. is definately uncalled for and not needed.
Lets keep it civil is what you said, so try and head your own advice.

Urbansmooth:
This thread seems to be going round in circles.
We have explained over and over about 3d-graphics,holography,rotoscoping etc etc and still we getting "I want real actors in a fighting game".
As for comments about the soldier guy and flashbacks that basically invalidates you from being taken seriously,most of use here haven't been in the army but seem to agree with him.
You still haven't answered why YOU like the blood and gore so much?

my bad, i suppose i just get frusterated with slow learners

Oh, please! Don't spout that BS all over this board. Are you telling me that I can't tell the difference between Fantasy and Reality? Kill Bill was more violent than MK and it was fan-bleedin-tastic. And MK certainly doesn't kompare to the psychological torture of Cube, or the first Nightmare on Elm Street. If these films didn't make anyone flip out and kill people, Mortal Kombat kan hardly be responsible for that.
As a connaisseur of Horror films, particularly slasher flicks, I must tell you that yes, seeing people decapitated and snapped in half kan be _extremely_ entertaining. Bride of Chucky, anyone? Freddy vs Jason?
BUT WE KNOW these are not reality. Sure I love to see people eviscerated on film, but I still will flinch if I see a real person break their leg. I don't even like to see my friends get piercings. This is the difference between real life and entertainment, and if you can't tell the difference, then YOU are the one who needs therapy.

Look, MK is not just about fatalities. Fatalities helped make MK popular, just as much as the real-life characters did!
Since MK has entered the 3D world now, and has had several years to familiarize itself with 3D, I think it's time that MK took that next step of reclaiming that which it once had: real-life characters! This time in 3D, because MK is in 3D!
It's not all about the fatalities!
Think of seeing real-life characters on the select screen and in the character endings when you beat the game. The characters endings could be movie clips. You know how other fighting games have full-motion video endings with 3D characters? Well, MK could have live-action movie clips for character endings.
And, I'm not a loverboy for gore! I just know that in the real world, if two people were to fight with each other, there's going to be some blood spilt, we all know that! It's all about being realistic (in an MK sense).
You can still have real-life characters (digitized 3D actors that are actual human beings), and still add over-the-top physics and special effects, such as fireballs, spears, etc, as well as the dynamic lighting effects!
Don't take away from the point here. We want real-life MK characters with souped-up MK special effects in all future MK games!

What drew me to Mortal Kombat was how it was realistic and not realistic at the same time. Wait....does that makesence?.....
What I mean is, people could do things with a character you could believe in, that you couldn't do in real life. I loved ripping people apart with Sonya's legs. Like Boon said MK was pushed beyond reality. Mortal Kombat became popular because it was not cartoony. It wasn't a Mario game were you jump on somethings head and its dead. You had to beat them to death and finish them while they're weak. Mortal Kombat isn't cartoonish...its an escape from the crushing pain of reality.

Keith Wrote: What drew me to Mortal Kombat was how it was realistic and not realistic at the same time. Wait....does that makesence?..... What I mean is, people could do things with a character you could believe in, that you couldn't do in real life. I loved ripping people apart with Sonya's legs. Like Boon said MK was pushed beyond reality. Mortal Kombat became popular because it was not cartoony. It wasn't a Mario game were you jump on somethings head and its dead. You had to beat them to death and finish them while they're weak. Mortal Kombat isn't cartoonish...its an escape from the crushing pain of reality.

When you typed:
What drew me to Mortal Kombat was how it was realistic and not realistic at the same time. Wait....does that makesence?.....
What I mean is, people could do things with a character you could believe in, that you couldn't do in real life.
You are talking in the past tense, meaning the first MK games, in which they used realistic-looking real-life actors!
Also, when you typed:
I loved ripping people apart with Sonya's legs. Like Boon said MK was pushed beyond reality.
You are talking about Sonya's MK3 fatality. Mortal Kombat 3 used real-life actors that were digitized and used as realistic MK characters.
Mortal Kombat 1 - Mortal Kombat Trilogy were not cartoonish in the character sense. However, MK4 through MK:D are. But, that's fine, because the MK team needed time to familiarize themselves with the 3D fighting world. I think it's time they look into using real-life actors and try to capture them in 3D real-time!

This thread is getting a lot of responses. I like digitized characters, but I agree that creating that atmosphere in a 3D environment could prove to be difficult.

molsen81 Wrote: This thread is getting a lot of responses. I like digitized characters, but I agree that creating that atmosphere in a 3D environment could prove to be difficult.

I too, enjoy playing a game with real-life digitized actors as the characters. However, the technology is closer now than ever before, and really isn't that difficult, once people begin to experiment with it.
A return to MK's roots (real-life digitized actors) can only be a good thing! Remember, it's not just about how much better fatalities would look (refer to Mortal Kombat through Mortal Kombat Trilogy), it's also about how good realistic characters look in other parts of the game, such as the select screen, the character endings, and character profile video clips (refer to MK1).

The Year for this is 2012. They said at E3 the gaming industry SHOULD(not for sure its a guess from how things have been improving) be at this point by this time.
But like many have said its not possible at this point and would cost money and the game would suck because it would be so slow.
So moving on I really like the way the characters look now they could be better but I don't care. But It would look gay as hell to put a 3d actor model on a digitized background. They just wouldn't go together. To have the full effect from this all you need to have it all too look real. I mean actors in 3d and backgrounds plus weapons etc that have been touched and special effects added on a computer. If you do this then you would have the full feeling and effect. This is a long ways away from all this so lets look at what needs to be better.
Now what the game really needs is to fix the blood and organs and stuff. I mean popcorn kernels don't cut it which midway said the first thing they worked on was fatalities. It is looking a little better but its not up to date at where the graphics is.
So no Lets not hope for Real 3d Actors in MK7 it's not time yet. Lets wait until were that technologically advanced in the consoles that is.

Urbansmooth: Now we are back on topic...You are still saying you want "real-life digitised actors" in 3d.
I wrote a long post how you wish will never happen because that is not the direction the technology is going(I even described how it would work and how impractical it is).Your wish is not founded in any understanding of the technology.However I totally understand you wish.Basically they will stick to wireframes with texture maps (which may or may not include image maps of real skin etc,all animated by motion capture data or by animators own keyframes.
Unless the real actor endings you also want are created to a high standard they might nd up looking as cheesy as soon of the other clips I've seen from those MK roadshow sequences.
The opening character of Animatrix is definately a good enough quality for FMV endings.But that's already old now so the standard can be even higher now.

What was I even thinking? LOL, real people in a video game!? Sorry, I was high for like three days.
Wait a minute. (Remembers MK1, MKII, MK3, UMK3, and MKT) Hey, they used real people!
If the technology was available in 1992. Then, it is available here in 2004. Obviously, gentlemen, it will be available in 2012.
"What technology does this UrbanSmooth chap speak of?" Why, three-dimensional real-life characters in Mortal Kombat, of course, ole boy! Who are you to know what the cost will be and how 'difficult' it would be?
And who am I? I'm not worried about cost or difficulty. I just want the fans to push and be heard so that the MK team will know what we want in MK! That want is: 3D real-life characters!

Okay Urban I am gonna keep this simple...
You keep saying "We want real-life MK characters with souped-up MK special effects in all future MK games!", now what the hell do we have to do to get it through your thick skull that NO WE DON"T!

zexisstryfe Wrote: Okay Urban I am gonna keep this simple... You keep saying "We want real-life MK characters with souped-up MK special effects in all future MK games!", now what the hell do we have to do to get it through your thick skull that NO WE DON"T!

/me counts how many people wrote "NO WE DONT"T!"
One: zexi.
So, by typing "WE," you really meant "I."
Ok, so, you never played MK1 through MKT? You were born in the late 90s, and your attachment to MK stemmed from either MK4 or MK:DA? Well, let me tell you that you are missing some really good realism in an MK game.
That realism can be found via real-life characters used in MK1 through MKT. I recommend you go check those out.
The 'barbie-doll' type MK characters must be put in the grave! Time for MK to go back to its own roots! Realistic characters! Real-life actors! Digitized real-life actors! However this time...(pauses for dramatic effect)
[Cue sublte, yet building orchestal flourish.]
[build to crashing musical climax]
Three-dimensional!

Oh, shut the hell up you dorkass.....

this is 2004 we don't care about the old mk games. you might still have a nintendo. we don't. so shut up about mkd. And what about tekken and doa dum not real dum!!! dum!!! characters. they suck ass. just know this your ass will be konsume on oct.4,2004.!!!!!!!!!!!!

This topic has been brought up a thousand times here already. It is quite clear that the MK fanbase is split between the opinion on the graphics of the latest MK installments. I happen to be on the side of realism. I would prefer to see a more realistic looking approach to the whole MK world instead of the 3D dolls that portray our once favorite actors/actresses of MK old. But it's just like 2 judges at an art contest. One says the painting is great. The details portray emotion and elegance and shows the artists inner-most feelings brought to life with oil and canvas. The other steps back and see a wash of colors and little to no effort being put in. In this case, you will neve have the other burst out saying, "OMG, your absolutely right, I never saw how beatiful this painting was until you tried to convince me." The point being, that there is no answer, no end to this. No way to convince anyone else of what or how you see the new game that is being prepared for you. Some people like gore no matter how cheezy it is put together. Other people prefer their gore manifested into a more realistic approach. Ala Doom3 or Prince of Persia 2. Yes I mentioned this in another thread, but if you check either of these out, it will make some of the fatalities we've seen for MK:D look like blobs of strawberry jelly pouring out of clean, unharmed bodies that scream a lot to imply something bad is going on when visually it's kinda a technical sloppy mess when played out on-screen.
http://media.cube.ign.com/media/654/654713/vids_1.html
Here is the link to PoP 2 to compare how fatalities would look kewl when executed in a technically masterful way. Just notice the non-blobular blood and the physics of everything going on. =)

Urbansmooth:
I have a feeling you are pretending to not understand!This is the last time I'll try to explain.
When they did MK1 etc it was 2d.Now it is 3d,you CANNOT use the same methodolgy or technology-it doesn't work that way.Re-read the posts-I explained how and why.
Like I said before I understand what you want but in 3d they can't just film actors and use the frames of footage without all the problems I mentioned,re-read my old post in this tread about making a sphere of cameras.
Just stating what you want over and over is not a discussion,you need to actually discuss the issues,in this case they are technical.

If Midway Bring Back digitized actors, I willll never play a MK game any more...