well the one thing i wanted, i got. and that was noob saibot. so i'm really happy with the game. and i'm not gonna complain b/c if they don't get it this time there is always MK7, right? but one thing i do have to say is bring back all the cool special moves like scorpions leg takedown from MK2, sonya's square wave, and sub-zero's ic shower. and hopefull baraka will have his blade fury.

ahh...fps. thats all u guys had to say.

ShoHayabusa Wrote: he means more frames per char.. i guess they wanted them to make them less choppy.

That's not it. He means 60 frames per second, for instance a sweep would take around 20-40 frames to execute from beginning animation to when it hits depending on the character. Then if the sweep is blocked, the character blocking would be at a "frame" disadvantage not being able to block for let's say 20-30 frames, and not be able to do any other move for 40-45 frames...so they could block in the final 15 or so frames (1/4 second) but not be able to move yet...the opposite for a successful sweep hitting.

Ya dig? A form of this is in MK already...but not in this form, which is what needs to be in to create balance in the game.

lordofthenetherealm Wrote: well the one thing i wanted, i got. and that was noob saibot. so i'm really happy with the game. and i'm not gonna complain b/c if they don't get it this time there is always MK7, right?

if they dont get this right, how excited will you be for 7? i know if i am dissapointed I probably will not be anticipating 7. hell im wait to see a review on MKD before i buy it, cause i hated 4 and DA was not much compared to games today, and im tired of being dissapointed

i'll always look forward to the next game b/c its mortal kombat. and thats all that matters. if you miss the good old days just break out your sega or whatever and whoop up on stryker like i always did.

MK:DA was fine! Leave it alone

I've been wondering when you were gonna break out your gameplay topic. Versatile pretty much has stated everything (and I do mean everything thinking back to his essays) regarding proper mechanics when it comes to the basics of a competent fighting game. Midway doesn't have forever to get things right. If anything, this is their last shot. Ed Boon has said more than once that he wants to pull in the hardcore crowd. Guess what, folks? The people who consider themselves in the hardcore crowd are laughing hysterically at MK:DA and even harder at the prospect that MK:D will be a disaster.

Let me give an example of something that went wrong. The designers found that the juggle system in DA had a flaw. The physics allowed the juggler to keep the jugglee in the air for a rediculous amount of hits. How to fix this? Rather than working with the physics engine as they should have done they took the easy way out and haphazardly stuck a juggle limit in. That doesn't set a good precedent. You can't take a shoddy system that lacks many fundamentals add in fancy characters, stages, storylines, interactivity, etc. and expect the hardcore fanbase to like the game. That doesn't make a game deep. That adds character to what should be an already deep game. They lost a lot of time. If MK keeps taking baby steps each sequel it'll always be left behind technically speaking.

The new konquest and minigames make me happy but that isn't going to matter when all is said and done and people wanna play something deep. MK will sell no matter what. That's not the issue. The issue is that Ed Boon will never get what he wants with the hardcore players unless he actually studies what MK is missing and how it can be implemented. The fact is, I'm an aspiring designer myself. Sales will matter to me. I have to eat. But achieving my goals with my games and seeing them widely respected because I reached those goals will mean more. If the MK design team doesn't understand frame advantage then they have to read about it, play games that have it, and experiment with implementing it in order to get what it is and how it works. It does exist in many other games and those games are better because of it. This is no time for the design team to back off of something because it's a challenge. I have faith in what they can accomplish.

Time restrictions come into play, I know this. But hopefully the fatcats at Midway will understand the fact that MK will never lose money so it'd be in poor judgement to force the game out before the design team feels it ready. I don't know exactly what the Tekken 4 designers did differently that makes that game respected among hardcore players and I don't know exactly where the designers of Kakuto Chojin, for example, failed so miserably. All I know is that there are things Tekken, Virtua Fighter, and Soul Calibur all have in common. What a coincidence these are the three most respected 3D fighters available. They're not ripping each other off exactly. They all do things differently and don't feel like each other. But they utilize the basics. All the basics explained in the two improvement threads on the MK:DA board. Sure the numbers are different. Throw escapes have a smaller window in VF than in SC but both have them. These three games are big tournament games because the fundamentals they employ work so well for competition. MK doesn't have these fundamentals so it's no surprise there isn't a rush to hold MK tournaments. And tournaments really are what keeps a fighting game alive and shows really how good it is in the long run.

I don't want to give the impression that DA was a disaster. It wasn't. I liked it and some good things came out of it. But nobody can expect to take DA, add in big levels and a fancier konquest, and have it be a hit among the hardcore crowd. I don't mean to sound ungrateful for all the work Midway is putting into these features. On the contrary, I'm extremely thankful they're showing such initiative in making MK more than just a vs. game. But it still is a fighting game and just as much work needs to be put towards the fighting engine.

Jesus...that was a wonderful read. I couldn't add anything to that if I wanted to...great post!

Are you reading this Ed?

I was thinking about this as well, so far we've seen really cool pics of new stages and re-vamped fighter models, but nothing about adding to the core gameplay.

I like to think that there is a copy of the "what was wrong with MKDA? & what would make MKDA better? threads pinned to a wall at the midway offices and that they're ticking off each point as they add it to MK6.

I really would like to see everything that was mentioned in these threads added to MK6, but realistically it'd be nice to see at least what Versatile listed in this thread. I don't want MK6 to be MK:DA with just some new graphics.

I want Frost!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I Hope that she is in. If she is in I would love a pic of her. If she isnt in MK6, I would like her to be in if she not in :.(. I have a bad feeling that she isnt in :.(

TonyTheTiger Wrote: I've been wondering when you were gonna break out your gameplay topic. Versatile pretty much has stated everything (and I do mean everything thinking back to his essays) regarding proper mechanics when it comes to the basics of a competent fighting game. Midway doesn't have forever to get things right. If anything, this is their last shot. Ed Boon has said more than once that he wants to pull in the hardcore crowd. Guess what, folks? The people who consider themselves in the hardcore crowd are laughing hysterically at MK:DA and even harder at the prospect that MK:D will be a disaster. Let me give an example of something that went wrong. The designers found that the juggle system in DA had a flaw. The physics allowed the juggler to keep the jugglee in the air for a rediculous amount of hits. How to fix this? Rather than working with the physics engine as they should have done they took the easy way out and haphazardly stuck a juggle limit in. That doesn't set a good precedent. You can't take a shoddy system that lacks many fundamentals add in fancy characters, stages, storylines, interactivity, etc. and expect the hardcore fanbase to like the game. That doesn't make a game deep. That adds character to what should be an already deep game. They lost a lot of time. If MK keeps taking baby steps each sequel it'll always be left behind technically speaking. The new konquest and minigames make me happy but that isn't going to matter when all is said and done and people wanna play something deep. MK will sell no matter what. That's not the issue. The issue is that Ed Boon will never get what he wants with the hardcore players unless he actually studies what MK is missing and how it can be implemented. The fact is, I'm an aspiring designer myself. Sales will matter to me. I have to eat. But achieving my goals with my games and seeing them widely respected because I reached those goals will mean more. If the MK design team doesn't understand frame advantage then they have to read about it, play games that have it, and experiment with implementing it in order to get what it is and how it works. It does exist in many other games and those games are better because of it. This is no time for the design team to back off of something because it's a challenge. I have faith in what they can accomplish. Time restrictions come into play, I know this. But hopefully the fatcats at Midway will understand the fact that MK will never lose money so it'd be in poor judgement to force the game out before the design team feels it ready. I don't know exactly what the Tekken 4 designers did differently that makes that game respected among hardcore players and I don't know exactly where the designers of Kakuto Chojin, for example, failed so miserably. All I know is that there are things Tekken, Virtua Fighter, and Soul Calibur all have in common. What a coincidence these are the three most respected 3D fighters available. They're not ripping each other off exactly. They all do things differently and don't feel like each other. But they utilize the basics. All the basics explained in the two improvement threads on the MK:DA board. Sure the numbers are different. Throw escapes have a smaller window in VF than in SC but both have them. These three games are big tournament games because the fundamentals they employ work so well for competition. MK doesn't have these fundamentals so it's no surprise there isn't a rush to hold MK tournaments. And tournaments really are what keeps a fighting game alive and shows really how good it is in the long run. I don't want to give the impression that DA was a disaster. It wasn't. I liked it and some good things came out of it. But nobody can expect to take DA, add in big levels and a fancier konquest, and have it be a hit among the hardcore crowd. I don't mean to sound ungrateful for all the work Midway is putting into these features. On the contrary, I'm extremely thankful they're showing such initiative in making MK more than just a vs. game. But it still is a fighting game and just as much work needs to be put towards the fighting engine.

...I'm not one for jocking, but, dude...can I be your man bitch!? 0_0

I for one am very, very skeptical about the gameplay improvements. I will neither slam, nor priase because of what little info we know about the game. Shit doesnt' matter till' the stick or d-pad slams out something decent.

We haven't even seen anything tangable as far as gameplay goes, and even if we have, that's all we've got. We've SEEN it, not played it. Add to the fact that visual representation can be altered at the drop of a dime. What exactly do we "see" when such gameplay visuals are presented, anyways? Also, Boon proclaiming a tweaked, quicker, more agile movement scheme...eh, whatever. We'll see.

Honestly, I am getting quite exhausted with every fanboy announcing the "kick ass!!" system of DA. "There is nothing wrong with it..." Ugh. Almost everything was wrong with it. But that's not the point as of now. As of now there are plenty of outstanding fighters out there, which are tangable. Tangables that allow me to slam out a dp motion and cancel with input "A" or whatever. There are fighters out there that let the player express their creativity.

MKD has shown nothing of this. As such, we need not to change anything, or go on rants about mear "visuals of gameplay." We need to simply wait. The reality, however, is that many of us have been waiting for a very long time. I am a patient person, but I am starting to get a little pissed off. As many others are, as well.

Didn't rayrokka have a meeting with Ed about his report on wats wrong with MK:DA? Seeing that he gave everything else that the fans wanted (multiple fatalities, stage fatalities, interactive stages, etc.), maybe he took that report in mind.

anyway, i do believe that MK:DA is slow and flawed gameplay wise, and that MK:Deception is Midway's last chance of getting the "hardcore" fans. I, like all of us, am sick of their mockery and i hope Midway sees that they need to not just focus of the visual and gimmickey stuff, but on gameplay as well so they will shut up.

i also agree. while i plan to play it religously, there's going to be A LOT of disasters if it keeps the entire mkda engine. i see it ending up like tekken 4, sorta. i've only seen one "round" level where there aren't multi tier environments. i'm already predicting that will be the arena used in tournaments. what the fuck is the point to put in monks who choke you? being killed mid round to a stage fatality? joy, pi gua. push, watch monks hurt opponent, hellfire. oh wait where are you going? push, watch monks hurt you, hellfire! one more time? ugh. i know that's a premature statement but i'm just playing off the mkda engine. i guess interacting with the environments will be cool tools at first. but i can already see it destroying the game. and if it keeps just the mkda engine, that's not going to be enough to cut it in the round arena either. because the mkda engine isn't that great to begin with. not to be too dramatic, but mk is slowly turning into a brawler and going away from being a fighter.

so congrats to the peeps who got their wish of fatalities, stage fatalities, crazy cool costumes, yadda yadda yadda. but i don't give a shit about any of that. i remember long before mkda was released, peeps here would talk about how cool a mortal kombat game would be with virtua fighter gameplay. now it obviously hasn't turned into that. which is fine. but it's sad to see those people gone and everyone these days worried about fatalities and characters. and it's even sadder to see mk turn into a brawler instead of a respectable fighter. i know i'm not the only person who wants mk to be heavy in the tourney scene. but it never will because the basic fundamentals of a fighting game are missing from mk and ed boon and team don't seem to care.


on that note, i wish it the best and i wish it shuts me up when it's released.

Not to be devil's advocate here, but not every game developed is done so to be a intricately weaved high level web of technicality. Some games are made just to be fucked around with.

Anyone who claims to be "down with Mortal Kombat from day 1" should be more than familiar with this concept, since up until MK:DA, it was obvious Midway wasn't even realistically concerned with balance or technical stuff.

There's a whole culture of people who buy MK (or video games in general) just for fluff, and bells and whistles. They make up the VAST majority of the market which keeps series' like this going, and if it weren't for them, Mortal Kombat would've never made it past 2.

That said, I think it's fairly safe to say that with DA, Boon and co seemed to make a conscious effort towards balancing the game, and making it more fun for technical players. That being the case, I am certain that they have a similar mindset in place for Deception.

We already know there's new moves and new stances, we already know they've brought back / revamped the "idle weapon" system from gold, we already know the levels and positioning will play a more active role in the fight and if any of the post DA interviews mean anything we should know Boon will be pushing at least some sort of expanded reversal / parry system.

I don't think (at this point) any of us has a right to say "Deception is only updated fluff, no gameplay consideration", inside man or not. Considering nine times out of ten the technical worth of a fighter cannot be deduced until the game is done, and the controller is in our hands. Even then it usually takes weeks if not months to iron out the details. I'm sure we all remember the great Neijin Powerup / Infinite / Kenshi / Quan Cheap debates that infected this and every other MK website for the first few months of DA's life.

If Ed Boon (or his team) do in fact read just about any slightly populated fighting game message board, he's more than familiar with just about every "technical" flaw in DA, if only because so many people have made it their personal mission to point them out. The fact that it's been less than 2 weeks since the very first unconfirmed RENDER came out, and people are already sure their headed down the dark path is testement to that.

In short, how about instead of trying to indicate to Midway how far they are headed in the wrong direction, we stick to championing the good shit they've done. From where I stand, MK:D is already leaps and bounds more advanced than DA in every respect (gameplay, fluff, etc.) and as release grows closer I'm confident we're only going to hear better and better things (like DA).

I've said my peace. Long live Mortal Kombat.

-F

the concept of frames is hella easy to understand. let's hope boon and company do their homework. all the 'fluff' is great, but fundamentally, wouldn't you rather see robust frame data for each character? (steeples fingers)
-DG-

devilgene Wrote: the concept of frames is hella easy to understand. let's hope boon and company do their homework. all the 'fluff' is great, but fundamentally, wouldn't you rather see robust frame data for each character? (steeples fingers) -DG-

The "concept" and "theory" is easy to understand. At least to those who have made it a study habbit for how ever long they've been hardcore fighters. Implementation is another story altogether, though.

Also, as Fenix stated, most gamers couldn't care less about the tech. However, there is absolutely no reason why MK can not keep it's "mk traditions" and still be a technical fighter. Either way, MKD is looking nice, I'm just going to wait and see if it plays worth a shit.

Peace and love ya'll.

We have not seen any fight still!!! By God, you hope to see before criticizing it!!!

According to Ed Boon, the control of your character has been tightened up quite a bit and maneuvering your character around the background is faster and easier as well. And, a trustworthy source of Midway assures that there will be several types of take hold and throws, and will be new styles of fight and some old ones (of MKDA) will be mixed with those of now.

I think MK: DA had a great fighting system. Sure it wasn't perfect, but I mean come on it was the first true time they had done Mortal Kombat this way. It does not need changing at all, only revising and tweaking, which is precisely what Boon and company are doing. HE said in the interview they are heavily tweaking the combat system, so in turn you can expect faster, smoother combat. I think they are doing a great job in the direction they are heading in MK Deception. I cannot wait to see the final product or at least until I get to play it at E3. ^_~

I agree with what has been said about gameplay needing improvment. I love the MK series to death and have been a fan since MK1. And while yes the early MK's relied on fluff like fatalities and special moves back in the day. Midway has to realize that games have evolved and need to be improved not just, "Oh sweet multiple fatalites and pits" but smoother and faster gameplay. I think DOA(just using it as an example) has a great flowing and smooth yet realistic physics engine while MK:DA felt a little clunky and robotic at times. The fighting needs to flow, not just be a button sequence that relies on timing of a somewhat jerky fighting system.

Now I'm not saying that they won't deliver. I'm hoping like a mother fucker they do because I love the MK series and it's characters and atmosphere. But the gameplay in MK:DA while not horrible or anything did get boring quicker than I and apparently other people would have liked.

Konqrr,Menthol,Satygraph,DevilGene,etc. Thanks for not making me feel like I wasted my damn time with this thread.

Those who say there is nothing wrong with DA, please tell me what makes DA stand out? Besides cosmetics..that is.

Frames are easy to understand, but a very small amount of people care enough to be concerned with it.

I'm not saying it isn't a good thing, every bit of depth helps, but I guarantee it's not on Boon's priority list to add frame adv / dis to every move in the game when only 7 of us are worried about it, and 700 others are asking for multiple fatals and create a character.

Honestly, I'm more worried about "mid battle stage fatalities" than anything else, because that practically eliminates strategy if there are still guaranteed launch combos.

Sub Zero could simply camp the switch until he scores a freeze or launch, and that's fight over right there. I suppose maybe that's why the arenas are so massive now but still, that's dangerous ground.

devilgene Wrote: the concept of frames is hella easy to understand. let's hope boon and company do their homework. all the 'fluff' is great, but fundamentally, wouldn't you rather see robust frame data for each character? (steeples fingers) -DG-

I will sign Versatile

I hope they have added all the technical stuff, because it is definitely needed.

I don't know how MKD is going to play, but from what we know so far it seems like their main focus is on visuals not the core game play.

But We'll see.

Fenix Wrote: ...but I guarantee it's not on Boon's priority list to add frame adv / dis to every move in the game when only 7 of us are worried about it, and 700 others are asking for multiple fatals and create a character.

Agreed.

Oh, and Verse, Korn ownjoo for free.

Fenix Wrote:
I guarantee it's not on Boon's priority list to add frame adv / dis to every move in the game when only 7 of us are worried about it, and 700 others are asking for multiple fatals and create a character.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ alas, this may indeed be the case. but coming from a Tekken background, i couldn't begin to imagine playing/learning a fighting game and developing '133t' skills without a proper study of frames...just my 2 cents..(but hey, even if this aspect is ignored, it will still probably top MKDA...) PS: oh and kelly kell and versi...you two scrubs don't even think of ducking out on me online when i pull out my '133t' 'scorpion-thrust-kick' to combo abuse...lol... -DG-

It looks like they added more vivid color the characters and stages from the pictures and I am happy about that becase a lot of the attraction of playing mortal Kobat is what you see with your eyes. Tastefully using those colors as they did in MK 2 helps that.