"From the series humble beginnings as a Street Fighter clone more than a decade ago"

......???? That was lame.

I really dont know whats so wrong with the gameplay of MK. I know its not the best, thats a fact, but seriously, is it THAT bad???

Its not, at least, thats how I feel. I hate Tekkens/Soul caliburs gameplay, and I hope it never goes that way.

I think MK:D has some serious problems and this guy states them all, but he does it with an extreme hate for the whole MK series which basically flushes his opinions down the drain. Obviously someone who thinks all the MKs have sucked isn't gonna like this one. Yes it's true there are better fighting games than MK:D like SC2 and VF4 (T4 was just too slow paced), but MK was never ment to be a strategy fighting game. It has been meant to be a diverse and fun game. If this isn;t the case then explain to me why they have fatalities and death traps. If they wanted this to be a hardcore fighting game they could have taken those out and used them to enhance the fighting gameplay. MK is meant to be a fun game and that is what it is. This guy's review means nothing. Ignore it.

The thing about MK is its a FUN game.. not its deep fighting engine or anything.. just fun and it is. If you want something deep out of mk.. thats its storyline.. that is way better than any other games. MK will allways be alot more fun than anyother game. You gonna call me a fanboy now? Well you need to hear me rant about the bad things of MK...

omg! how could that be?! gameinformer(myfav mag) gave it a 9.5/10. it is a great game! "or so hope" i think that review was bull. >:0

Im not someone who plays MK just for fatalities and blood.If MKDA didn't have fatalities or blood I would still play it.I like the fighting part of it.All because I have my own opinion on MK dosen't mean you have to flame me.I have fun with the game.I don't make a big deal out of every little thing thats wrong with it.Im not a fanboy either.
Don't act like you know my thoughts on MKDA.

Queve, it is THAT bad, really. We aren't shitting you. MKDA is the only fighting game where knowing less moves is actually playing better. It's the only 3d fighter that doesn't even have a ground system. It's the only 3d fighter that doesn't have frame advantage on counterhits. Damn it lacks so many basic things fighters have its hard to even recognize it as a 3d fighting game. Hell it's the only 3d fighter that requires no thinking at all to play. When you are playing defense, you're basically flipping a coin guessing whether its heads or tails due to the choppy animation and 50/50 options of the better characters.

Look at Scorpion. He needs 4 moves and you "Mastered" him. Playing with any more of the movelist, adding variety and mind-games, is entirely worthless.

This is how a Scorpion character faq would look like for top-level:

If he is blocking, shove, then you will get a free hellfire.

If he is blocking high, do 4 and you will get a free hellfire. Backdash Cancel and be safe.

If he is blocking low, do 3. Backdash Cancel and be safe.

When they get hellfire'd move up and do one of the top three again since you have free mixups.

ALL MK characters devolve to mixups like that and remembering dial-a-combos.

THIS is what you need to play Nina in Tekken 4.
http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=49635

Note all the mindgames, combos, useful moves, etc. and those are only basics.

justycist Wrote: The thing about MK is its a FUN game.. not its deep fighting engine or anything.. just fun and it is. If you want something deep out of mk.. thats its storyline.. that is way better than any other games. MK will allways be alot more fun than anyother game. You gonna call me a fanboy now? Well you need to hear me rant about the bad things of MK...

There is a difference though. "FUN" is subjective, when reviewing a game, you try to be objective. What you find fun, I might not. For me, when I play a fighting game, I find it fun when I constantly adapt and constantly try to out-think my opponent. Do I enjoy other aspects of MK? Surely, that's why I even care enough to want it to be better. But just because I find its fluff and other stuff fun, doesn't mean it's not a shittier game.

So while "fun" is enough justification for some, it isn't for most. What do you tell 95% of the fighting game community when all of them think the gameplay is crap? Do you try to redefine what they think is fun by telling them "instead of enjoying strategy, depth, options, etc. you can have story in a FIGHTING GAME instead!" The "fun" argument just doesn't hold because its subjective. The fighting system being not even on the level of decent is not.

Gameplay-wise, which is what ALL reviewers should aim for when reviewing games, the guy is dead-on.

Tony is right. How can anyone call themselves an MK fan and not be concerned that their games don't match up to other fighters? Why keep telling yourself that a little thing like gameplay doesn't matter?

Ok, so it might be fine for you, but it won't be for other gamers who have matured past this nonsense. Jump, block, retaliate... is this what gaming still is to you, after 12 years of video game evolution? Every other game has evolved into something bigger and better with gameplay. I like being able to play DOA after a year and see one of my friends bust out a combo I have never seen before. You can't get that with MK:D, and you are all ok with that?

Sorry, but I want MK to be better. It's not like they have to sacrifice any of the story to do this. It's not like I'm asking anyone on the dev team to sacrifice any other aspect of the game, just give me a non half assed attempt at adding depth to a severely flawed fighting engine.

I was one of you people once... Saying that MK was not like any other fighter and such. You need to open your eyes and realize how much better a game like MK:D can be. Saying it needs to be better doesn't make you a hater. I think it makes you more of a fan because you want the game to be even better than what it is.


I thought the guys review was pretty dead on. I would of probably given a 7 over all, but everything he said is true. Instead of making a batter fighter, we have DA now featuring puzzle and chess kombat. Like someone already said, I would much rather have 12 balanced and in depth fighters than 24 POS.

I understand that MK has got it's share of problems, none of them (fighting games) are perfect. I've never said in any post that MK is perfect. I never said in my previous post that MK:DA was without flaws. I think the difference really lies in the market. Asian (that is to say Japanese) fighters are generally much much different than American fighters. Arcades in Japan are still wildly popular and viewed as much a social interaction as they are a place to play games. Ever look at an Import game site and see all the "wierd" Japanese games that they play that we never see, we're two different halves of the world playing two different kinds of fighting games. And bringing up Street Fighter... yeah.... since your bringing up "fluff" lets discuss that series. Rehash of old characters, "Check", it was the same thing over and over again, they added POW bars and a lot of pretty combo colors. Anyone remember the convoluted control scheme and the amount of time it took to pull off a "top tier" move in VF 1 on Saturn, how many times did you pull that hard to pull move off while in the middle of combat, because I couldn't, and didn't. The problem with most of these "Japanese" style fighters, save Street Fighter in 2D, is time. I don't have time to sit and practice playing a video game. Complicated does not always equal superior. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing or praising any franshise over another. I just know what I like to play. Do i hope MK gets better, Yes, I do. Will i stick around to see if it happens, Yes, I will.

Everybody has their own road to take.Let MK be MK,DOA be DOA,and all the other fighting games.If all fighting games were the same it wouldn't be fun.The only fighters I like are:

Tekken
Virtua Fighter
Killer Instinct
Street Fighter
Marvel Vs Capcom series
Capcom vs series
=========

glutony Wrote: I understand that MK has got it's share of problems, none of them (fighting games) are perfect. I've never said in any post that MK is perfect. I never said in my previous post that MK:DA was without flaws. I think the difference really lies in the market. Asian (that is to say Japanese) fighters are generally much much different than American fighters. Arcades in Japan are still wildly popular and viewed as much a social interaction as they are a place to play games. Ever look at an Import game site and see all the "wierd" Japanese games that they play that we never see, we're two different halves of the world playing two different kinds of fighting games. And bringing up Street Fighter... yeah.... since your bringing up "fluff" lets discuss that series. Rehash of old characters, "Check", it was the same thing over and over again, they added POW bars and a lot of pretty combo colors. Anyone remember the convoluted control scheme and the amount of time it took to pull off a "top tier" move in VF 1 on Saturn, how many times did you pull that hard to pull move off while in the middle of combat, because I couldn't, and didn't. The problem with most of these "Japanese" style fighters, save Street Fighter in 2D, is time. I don't have time to sit and practice playing a video game. Complicated does not always equal superior. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing or praising any franshise over another. I just know what I like to play.

Not to demean you at all, but if you don't know the differences between the Street Fighters, then you just haven't sat down with them enough to know. All it takes is an hour to know how different each game is. Even if you don't know it at the level of Kara-Throws, Charge Partitioning, etc. You can easily still note how different a game is. Such as Alpha 3 has V-Ism, Air-teching, tech-rolling, alpha-counters, etc. Whereas SF3 has parry, special cancelling, etc.

However, that does not mean a game should dummy itself down just to cater to people that don't want to sit down with the game. I have a cousin who dislikes fighting games in general, but when you give her a game like Naruto 2 or games where you constantly press one button to do a full combo and the only other option is to block, etc. Should we instead cater MK to people like her?

A game having depth is not complication. Depth does not equal complicated. SC2 has depth and it's simple. Depth in fighting games means there's a lot of options and thinking involved when you play against another player. For people that dislike depth, all you gotta do is not use it. If suddenly all of MK's moves were useful in different situations, that doesn't stop you from using the same moves over and over if you wanted to.

Sure you won't be the best or near mid-level, but for people that don't plan to play the game that much, why would you expect that in the first place?

Depth, strategy, options, thinking, outsmarting ... they are all parts of fighting games. MK doesn't have any of it because the way MK's system is employed lacks any depth in the first place...

Honestly, if people don't want to sit down to learn a fighting game, then don't and play with the tools that you like. However there should be enough tools in the game to make it interesting for the people that do play it for vast amounts of time.
Seriously glutony, go to www.video-opera.com and watch different games, you will notice that they emply multitudes of different options as well as each game being drastically different.
Edit: MK BEING BETTER does NOT mean copying. However, the basics of a 3d fighter, MK DOESN'T EVEN HAVE IN ANY FORM. That is a problem. If MK did thinks MK style, that would be fine. But the thing is, the fighting engine doesn't even have those mechanics in the first place.

Example in point. Soul Calibur 2 is simple, we can all agree with that, right? However, it has a lot of DEPTH, Strategy, and thinking underlying its game mechanics.

Look at Cassandra strats for example for basic stuff on her.

http://www.soulcalibur.com/forums/showthread.php?s=3bccb8d6ccec4b6d2e2dcdeda953f9a6&threadid;=8345

NOW, you don't need to know all of that to play Cassandra, but you do if you want to be decent. However if you really don't want to sit down with the game and don't really want to spend time with it, you can still have a fun time and know that the more you play, the more you'll get better because the engine allows you to adapt and constantly learn.

HDTran Wrote: Example in point. Soul Calibur 2 is simple, we can all agree with that, right? However, it has a lot of DEPTH, Strategy, and thinking underlying its game mechanics. Look at Cassandra strats for example for basic stuff on her. http://www.soulcalibur.com/forums/showthread.php?s=3bccb8d6ccec4b6d2e2dcdeda953f9a6&threadid;=8345 NOW, you don't need to know all of that to play Cassandra, but you do if you want to be decent. However if you really don't want to sit down with the game and don't really want to spend time with it, you can still have a fun time and know that the more you play, the more you'll get better because the engine allows you to adapt and constantly learn.

Yeah, I've said the same thing about Smash Bros. Melee. Smash Bros. is simple as all hell. Simpler in fact than MK. But it's got more depth. I'm a Mario player and I know there are good juggle set ups but there are certain set ups that work better against some characters than others. I can't play against a Samus or Fox (Mario's worst matchup) the same way I'd play against a Donkey Kong or Link. In MK:DA there's far fewer successful styles of play.

I understand what your saying Tran. But none of those "Options" in SFII appeared overnight. It was a process. SFIII was not as popular as the older SF's with American gamers, because we are different than Asian gamers. Let me ask the MKO members, how many of you have bought Street Fighter Anniversary Collection?, Now how many of you spend more time playing SFII as opposed to SFIII. SFIII is more technical, so by that right shouldn't you be playing it instead of SFII which is "dumbed down". I have already said that MK still has it's problems, and yes it still needs a lot of refining. Unfortunately I also believe that the MK Team themselves set themselves back. They basically made a joke out of thier own franchise after MK 1 and all the news coverage over "Violence in Video Games" that MK started, Friendships?, Babalities?. Maybe if they had stayed in 2D the way SF did all these years they would have advanced the system 10 fold. But they didn't, instead they kept making filler, exactly the same thing Capcom did with SFII for a good many years. I would go look at the movies that you've posted the link to, the thing is I don't care to, it won't spark my interest, it won't make me go run out and buy a "Japanese" fighting game (that I've probably already owned at one point and gotten rid of because I was flat out bored), don't take that wrong in any way, I'm not insulting you at all, i'd watch it, say "that's nice" and never look at it again. People just have different tastes. If we were all the same You'd have one game genre and a handful of companies making games (platformers....ew =P). Have you ever played a game that you liked and found to be enjoyable no matter what anyone said. I'll bet that you have. The realization is that the MK Team will either move ahead or lag behind and completely kill the franchise. It's already been on it's next to last breath once. Maybe the MK Team will begin to take things a little more seriously. If there are no fans, there is no audience, and there is no game.

i think the score needs to be higher, Boon worked really hard....

That would be too good. If in fact MK ever gets to the point where one player's Sub-Zero will look drastically different from another player's Sub-Zero at high-level play like other fighters, it'll be a great game. But sadly it's not there yet.

I mean I just look at Kung Lao from MKDA. If you didn't constantly jab with 1's and backdashed when the 1's didn't connect (to be entirely safe and using the fastest move in the game) OR follow up with the entire string, then you didn't know how to play him. That's ALL Kung Lao ever is in MKDA.

Poke with 1, 1
If 2nd "1" from Mantis doesn't land, backdash cancel and be entirely safe.
If 2nd "1" from Mantis does land, go through with the full-style chain and then his flying kicks.

That is ALL Kung Lao is at high-level play. What other 3d fighter devolves into that? High-Level play is supposed to be mastery of all aspects of a game, not whoring up jab pokes and one guranteed chain.

He's missing the point. big time. MK is a very diffrent fighting game,in its now ways. we can all safely say that MK is WAY better than tekken. but this guy dosen't know what the **** he is talking about. dumbass.

glutony Wrote: I understand what your saying Tran. But none of those "Options" in SFII appeared overnight. It was a process. SFIII was not as popular as the older SF's with American gamers, because we are different than Asian gamers. Let me ask the MKO members, how many of you have bought Street Fighter Anniversary Collection?, Now how many of you spend more time playing SFII as opposed to SFIII. SFIII is more technical, so by that right shouldn't you be playing it instead of SFII which is "dumbed down". I have already said that MK still has it's problems, and yes it still needs a lot of refining. Unfortunately I also believe that the MK Team themselves set themselves back. They basically made a joke out of thier own franchise after MK 1 and all the news coverage over "Violence in Video Games" that MK started, Friendships?, Babalities?. Maybe if they had stayed in 2D the way SF did all these years they would have advanced the system 10 fold. But they didn't, instead they kept making filler, exactly the same thing Capcom did with SFII for a good many years. I would go look at the movies that you've posted the link to, the thing is I don't care to, it won't spark my interest, it won't make me go run out and buy a "Japanese" fighting game (that I've probably already owned at one point and gotten rid of because I was flat out bored), don't take that wrong in any way, I'm not insulting you at all, i'd watch it, say "that's nice" and never look at it again. People just have different tastes. If we were all the same You'd have one game genre and a handful of companies making games (platformers....ew =P). Have you ever played a game that you liked and found to be enjoyable no matter what anyone said. I'll bet that you have. The realization is that the MK Team will either move ahead or lag behind and completely kill the franchise. It's already been on it's next to last breath once. Maybe the MK Team will begin to take things a little more seriously. If there are no fans, there is no audience, and there is no game.

The difference between SFII and SFIII is not because one is more technical than the other that people play one or the other more.

SFII is very fireball orientated and very defensive, damage values are different, etc. etc. Spacing and what is known as "Footsies" in SF Terms, where players have to mind where they stand more and all, is everything in SFII.

Whereas SFIII: Third Strike is VERY slow compared to Super Turbo (which is played at Turbo 3). Also fireballs are slow and weak, thus it creates a closer game focusing on Kara-Throwing and cancelling.

The SF games cannot be looked on as upgrades to one another, but differently GOOD games on their own, that's why they are good.

I know what you mean when you say that depth did not form overnight, that's true, but SFII became a competitive game at its first incarnation with basic depth and overtime became the powerhouse it became. Most people will agree that Hyper Fighting was the mark of SFII becoming great. However, look at it like this. SFII World Warrior (1991), SFII Hyper Fighting (1992). 1 year, it was also the real first of its genre.

How long did it take the MK team to make MKDA after MK4? Half a decade. They weren't the first 3d fighters either, they could have learned what made other fighters good and understood the underlying concepts, but they didn't. Let's say we'll overlook their half a decade and look at it from MKDA. 2 years since MKDA and MKD cannot even manage decent. I'm not asking for good, just "decent." Just a game that the fighting game community would nod their heads to whenever someone talks about it like its an actual game instead of laughing their asses off pointing out how its a POS with regurgitation with 2-3 moves and a chain.
In my opinion there are two types of MK fans. The MK Fanboy that will just go ooglie with more secrets, fatalities, blood. However, as you noticed the trend of these boards, all of the people that originally fell in love with MK are even getting bored of that. The Fatalities you see today are a billion times better than what we got in MK1 and MK2, yet the people that are now in their 20s and 30s insist that their quality is somehow "lower" and uncreative and shitty? Well... it's better than what it used to be so.. I dunno.
The other MK fan I am a part of. I love MK because I enjoyed it in my childhood when the game was actually playable and competitive with a lot of mindgames, traps, etc. But now.. it's devolved to a simple 50/50 mixup, abusing bugs, and the usage of a few moves per character. It has no excuse to be. It had huge development time, it had games that came before it that set the standard and continually raise the standard.
However since most fans fall into the previous category.. we may never see a good MK gameplay wise ever again. The worst part is the 2nd category of people are the ones still playing the game after all this time while the first category plays it for a month and then disappears until the next game while the people that play the game for the gameplay is stuck with a POS fighting engine until the next game.

I of course am completely forgetting about the years of 2D MK's, on purpose, and it's for a reason. MK in 3D is completely new, think of it as brand new, because it is, and it's 2 years old. Now take Tekken, Soul Caliber, and DOA. We're leaving out the fact that Tekken, Soul Caliber, and DOA are all made by the same company, Namco. Do those three games borrow from one another engine wise, I believe they do. Now look at how long Tekken has been around... a VERY long time, and always in 3D. Namco has had many many MANY years to refine it's system. MK in 3D has had 2 years. Is that comparison fair? I don't think so. Will I consider buying Tekken 5, Yes, I probably will buy it, did I enjoy Tekken Tag, Yes I did, for what it was. And i enjoy MK for what it is, RIGHT NOW, and hope that it stays around and progresses.

Tekken 5 and Soul Calibur was made by Namco. Dead or Alive was made by Tecmo. Virtua Fighter was made by Sega.

So how long are we supposed to wait for Midway to play the catchup game? How long are we supposed to wait until it has a fighting engine that is considered decent? 2 games? 3 games? 4 games?

Hell, other fighting games, if 1 game is horrible then it is horrible. I don't think anyone will forgive Tekken 5 if it was pure garbage.

Judging from the date of UMK3, released in 1994, MK has had 10 years to get its act together. How much more do we wait?

Tekken 1 released in 1994.

On the same token, IF the MK Team had looked at what other 3D Fighters did and did well, everyone would then be saying "it's a Tekken clone", or "it's a DOA clone", they'd be blamed for copying, just like "Mortal Kombat is a Street Fighter clone". MK players Do want innovation, BUT, they want MK innovation, not Tekken or DOA innovation.

DoA learned what it did from VF. But no one calls it a VF Clone. Tekken learned what it did from VF, but no one calls it a VF clone. VF tooks some mechanics from DoA, but no one calls it a DoA clone.

The thing is, 3d fighters have innate systems in them that make them 3d fighters. Defensive manuevers that require thinking and prediction, ground games, frame advantage off counterhits to give a reason to disturb someone than playing proactive, fluid animation, etc.
Its the same as 2d fighters. What kind of a 2d fighter would you push out today if you didn't have jumping, didn't have crossovers, didn't have basic throw mixups? That's MK's problem, I'm not advocating for it to be like anything else, I'm advocating that it gets its game together and has all the basics to be at least a decent 3d fighter that requires SOME amount of skill and thinking. MK could EASILY put their own spins on things to make the game drastically different. Look at DoA, Tekken, Soul Cal and VF. None of them are inherently the same at all. But each of them has the foundation of what makes a 3d fighter with depth.

MKD doesn't have this in any form at all. I'm not asking MKD to copy anyone, I'm asking MKD to learn basics. Do you not find it odd at all that in MKDA, characters that you played can use at most 4 different tools to be effective at high-level whereas Virtua Fighter, DoA, Tekken has players that use upto 60 different moves normally for different situations/setups?

As a MK game, MK:D is probably one of the best conceived since MKII. As an overall fighting game... it's probably the best conceived since MKII. Bext EXECUTED remains to be seen. I won't judge it until I've played it. Fatality.

My mistake, DOA is Tecmo, I always get Namco - Tecmo confused. Which is a good example of copying, look at DOA, I can't even keep straight who made it, I never played DOA. Now, there are those who say Tekken has been crap since Tekken 3. Do you like any Tekken games after Tekken 3? Does your opinion vary from thiers. It probably does. Just as MK Players vary, some people like Sektor, all the rest of us hate him. I play the game because I was in high school when the first MK was released in arcades (about 16). Did I love the flash, Yes I did, just like so many other players, that's what initially drew me in, and I have played it ever since. I know a lot of people love MK3 and UMK3. I never liked part 3 myself in any variation, that's when the MK Team was in the thick of making a joke out of thier franchise. The flash and "fluff" will always be in MK, the "fluff" is what started MK and made mother's so angry and kept kids pumping in the quarters. Like I said I'll be hanging around to see what happens to MK. And I'll hope it's great things with each new game. Just like every other game that gets a sequel.

HDTran let it go. We may not agree on DoA (Ill admit to only playing the first one) but we sure as hell think alike about everything else and what makes a fighter. MK will never reach that level even if they had a another 10 years because of the majority of the fanbase..and thats those people that dont even know what you are talking about. Last I knew, majority always rules so all we will see from one mk to the next is updated FLUFF...not gameplay. You are fighting a losing battle but I give you props for trying to over come it all.

btw, even though I agree with you Im still gonna get mkd and give it a run online. Are you gonna skip it alltogether or also give it a shot?