Good luck and godspeed.

I have some GREAT ideas for the animation! Though, however, many users would be barred compared to those who did.

Dat edginess.Be careful brah,I almost cut myself over how edgy that post was..

Ok imma drop it...it is obvious there is no point talking sense and i am not in the mood of getting into conversations with people that have issues -.-' Good luck to everyone that moved on to the quarterfinals! This has been very fun :)

Underdog status validated? Check.

I almost enjoy the idea of being an underdog more than being the... Overdog? Top dog? Is that where that phrase comes from? Top dog and underdog? ... That makes sense, I suppose. Can't say I can imagine Uresula letting anyone else on top, though. Luren, however...

new idea for Kira Sherry Motokai's Outfit
http://s1340.beta.photobucket.com/user/mwgrant0/media/zombie_zpsf16390fc.png.html


jk

To me, Uresula is top dog, and Luren is the underdog.

I like Uresula more, though.

That dynamic remains true in a number of situations, heh. She is indubitably on top in this duo.

Eh, if I'm being honest, I like her better too. If I were to get rid of the team aspect, Uresula would be the one to retain a story... Luren's design would probably be repurposed. Though, Uresula's design was originally for a dream/nightmare goddess with a split personality... I may return her to her origins in the future. Heh, I giggled. It would actually be an interesting twist for her to have a bit of a horrifying alternate costume.

Really? I dont see how they are underdogs. Imo this tag team is one of the most round up, and carefully developed characters in this tournament (appearance/specials/story wise).

It was a reference to DJ_DEATH_TRAP's early vote post about how he was voting for the underdogs in each match (Luren-Uresula included). Realistically though, as far as the top eight are concerned, they (along with a couple others) probably are underdogs... When compared to the entries that won all six of their matches, Luren-Uresula won five, four of which were very close and decided only by the public vote, as the judges have been 2-2 in every round except for their first (3-0) and last (0-3)... Which means that against the best entries of them all, they don't have the favor of the judges who seem to not care for them much... And to be honest it has come across on multiple occasions (and even outright stated at least once) that there are people voting against them on principle, rather than voting based on the quality of the entry... Which is fine with me, since being polarizing is better than being ignored, hehehe....

-Neuros flex's his biceps and poses.- There is need to fear....The Mad Underdog is here!


-Vexx face palms- I am never gonna hear the end of this.




-Holds up a lighter- Testify!

In all honesty, Harle, I was worried that Neuros was gonna taste defeat at the hands of your Hunter Duo. Aside from my one tick about them, I really think they are awesome characters. Here's to hoping we see more of them, where every they may go, in the soon future. Maybe a web-comic...or a novel...hmmm....the possibilities.

Really? I havent followed the scores of any character to be honest. Even for mine :P I just kept the outcomes in mind. Well I agree with you on this but voting against a character on a principle isn't any better than voting against another coz he is a frontrunner right? Of course everyone has their own criteria for their votes....just stating that mine have only been based on how good an entry actually is or which of the two I like the most. That way the best character wins the whole thing which is the point of all this.

I'd say that voting on a set of principles is definitely better than voting on characters based on their win status.

Myself, the principles I follow are very straightforward. First, ignore the artwork and writing quality, because these aren't objective measures of a character's value. Then, look to see if they're unique and well designed, and whether they fit in the MK canon without breaking it. Then imagine playing the character and see if there are any game-breaking flaws (this is where Luren-Uresula has lost my vote a few times) and if they have any new, interesting, and fun moves. Whichever character has the better design, story, gameplay, and overall character appeal is the one I choose as "best."

This I do agree with. That said, voting purely on quality is far better than voting on a set of principles in my mind, since realistically if these characters were created by the actual developers, there'd be a long period of changing little details to help them better fit the game properly. Not a single entry would enter the game exactly how it is now, and that is largely due to the principles of the developers themselves. In that process Kira would probably receive a different design, Persephone would get a generic violent fatality, and Luren-Uresula would have their fighting style simplified (And Eastwind would be given a butt ugly face and weirdly large arms )... Which is why the potential of an entry to make a successful character is far more important than a concrete set of principles, which can lead to voting for a clearly inferior entry on the basis that the better breaks some esoteric rule that would only exist in the editing room, not on the drawing board.

Surely, I could not have said this better.

And yes, I agree Persephone would end up having a violent fatality, simply due to the principle of MK being a violent game. This is why I love these tournaments, you get to present your characters in your own light.

Of course, I would rather see Luren and Uresula separately, but you made them exactly how you wanted them to be, so that's it is. And that's beauty of quality over principle. The possibilities are endless!

Four-legged kombatant? Fuck yeah!

Fuck yeah four-legged kombat!

Hehehe.... Though they'd probably just give it the Motaro treatment. Cut off his legs or give him a death cameo.

See, while I don't think Luren-Uresula are weak in ANY of the categories umbrascitor has listed in an objective way -objectivity vs. subjectivity be damned- your problem with them is actually what I see as their main flaw as their creator. With my last entry and this one, I've been trying to perfect this idea of mine for a character that fuses the masculine and feminine and intertwines two people into one... The first time, the secondary partner wasn't present enough in the overall design/gameplay. This time, the secondary character is too involved, I think.... But oh well, hehe.

The possibilities are indeed endless, which is why I think real developers could do so much more with the originality of ideas found in Luren-Uresula, Persephone, Neuros, etc... Than they could with a by-the-books character who lives and dies on fitting in.

On another note, is anyone here familiar with Smogon's CAP project?

To say, I think the only reason Luren seems like an underdog, is because he has Uresula standing in front of him.

I think if they were to stand alone, they'd both shine quite well, though I'd probably like Uresula more anyway. She just seems cooler.

And what the hell is CAP?

CAP is a project they started over at Smogon (a competitive Pokemon site) that has this long, involved, and tedious process of creating a good looking and balanced competitive Pokemon based on a specific concept and community consensus. I thought it would be cool if we had something like that here, where we vote on a basic idea of a character based on what is missing from the current game or something that would balance or work very well in the game, then submit special move ideas, designs, art, names, fighting styles, etc... to be voted on, resulting in a single character created by everyone involved in the process.

That doesn't really sound like a good idea, especially for Mortal Kombat, and even more so for us.

This tournament alone shows just how differently each of us thinks in terms of what constitutes a good character. I myself compose every character of mine with a different set of principles, in order to ensure each character is unique. For example, I created my character Judas to be well-balanced in combat, capable of winning and losing to anyone, but Persephone is meant to be overpowering and difficult to knock out, despite her inabilities to jump and crouch.

I never - or at least try not to - use the same format twice, and it seems many of us are this way, including you (hell, especially you, lol). Thus, I don't think the CAP project would go well with us, because we are always thinking of ways to constantly break barriers, so odds are none of us would think alike longer than 2-6 seconds. But it's a good thing, I think that's what keeps these tournaments going!

So how exactly are you defining "quality" in that statement? What, in your opinion, makes a "quality" entry? Whatever answer you give would be based on your own set of principles for what makes a quality character, wouldn't it? It's not a question of Quality vs. Principles, it's one set of principles versus another. By claiming to represent the side of "quality," you directly imply that I do not, and therefore my opinion is worth less. That's an awfully misleading choice of words.

My measure of "quality" is this: How well does this item suit its intended purpose? In this contest, I believe the purpose is: Let's make a new character for Mortal Kombat!

1. Okay, so does the character look unique and appealing? Yes and yes? Check and check!

2. Next, since we're making this character for Mortal Kombat, does the character add something to the MK story without changing everything the games have already established? Does the character's story even agree with itself? Eh, it has some flaws here and there, but it's still an intriguing premise. So... half-check.

3. Now if they put this character in the game, is it playable according to the well-defined rules of Mortal Kombat? Like, can you use basic, universal MK tactics like jumping and stuff? NO?! Well why the heck not? Big red X.

That's how I weigh out quality. It's not about following strict rules that deny innovation and creativity -- it's about taking the MK setup, and making something brand new for it that still works within that setup. You might notice that very little about my character's appearance, story, and gameplay is "by the books" -- I took every opportunity to stretch the possibilities, but still took the time to make sure that everything he does is still possible. But when you look at Luren-Uresula and realize that they would completely break Shang Tsung's morphing ability, it doesn't matter how cool the tag-team thing might be. It doesn't work.

It's just like buying a car: If it has everything else in tip-top condition but utterly lacks brakes, that's not a "quality" vehicle, and you shouldn't put that death car as a guest character in Mortal Kombat.



In the world of screenwriting, those "esoteric rules" are known as the series bible, which often sets down concrete rules for a series so that people writing things in later (like us writing for MK) don't screw the whole thing up. That's not the editing room, that's the drawing board. It is the exact board that you are drawing on.



What if Ed Boon himself were to come to this forum and announce that the winner of this contest would have their character made into DLC, preserving the creator's vision as much as possible? Which character would he be most likely to vote for? The one that has a cool look, but retcons half the story? The one with an awesome character background, but far too overpowered specials? The one that's a blast to play, but doesn't really look like a Mortal Kombat fighter? Sure, he would respect and appreciate all those four-legged, tag-teaming, non-violent flights of fancy. But which one would actually make it into MK? It would probably be one that feels like it was made for MK through and through.

Yes, there is always some work to be done in editing. But shouldn't we be voting for characters that need less fixing, so we can enjoy them as they are?

(Quarter Final) Eastwind
(Quarter Final) Neuros
(Quarter Final) Luren-Uresula
(Quarter Final) Rik'Ki

(QF) Eastwind
(QF) Neuros
(QF) Luren-Uresula
(QF) Rik'Ki

No, that is not a misleading choice of words and I didn't intend to imply what you took from it. If you took an offensive meaning from that, whoops, heh.... I was ranking ways of judgment and did not make a point to call into question how you determine the quality of an entry, but rather that it is worse to vote against a character (I'm not even specifically talking about MY entry here) because of some rule outside of basic factors that determine quality, which are not concrete principles but fluid personal bias and common sense. I'm not being specific with this either, it simply applies to voting for an objectively worse character on the basis of something outside of looks/gameplay/story (the things at which this character is worse) on the basis of some rule, bias, or "principle". You can't say no one does this. Even I did it once as a joke because of fan service, but only because I thought for sure she would end up winning the round. When she didn't, I felt bad.

I assume you're using Luren-Uresula as your example here, so... I will too. But first, I'd like to say I don't want this to come across as argumentative... I'm trying to discuss, so for the record my tone is not negative here. I don't want this to come across aggressively in any way, heh, but I can't get my point across without sounding like I am... So ahead of time, I apologize for anything that might sound insulting. I don't mean it that way.

Looks: Nothing to talk about here.

Story: Does this character add to the MK story? Tremendously. The entire purpose of the character's story is to introduce a new, minor or even major villain in the sequel and the heroes that will take the lead in this new subplot.

Does this character change anything that has already been established? Not in the slightest. I had this long paragraph written out, but my purpose isn't to defend the character, so I got rid of it. My point was that you previously had complaints about the story that were based on things not actually written in the text, which goes against one of these supposed principles, but in the end that is a minor complaint about a minor complaint, haha, so it's kind of pointless to talk about... Yet I'm still talking about it....

Is it playable according to the well-defined rules of Mortal Kombat? Like, can you use basic, universal MK tactics like jumping and stuff?

RESOUNDING YES. This one I will not edit the rambling, heh. You are judging their moves based on things that are, again, not in the text. Can you use jumping and ducking? Yes. Can you use a SPECIAL MOVE that has its own button input that acts as an enhanced jump or duck? Yes. Does this mean you can no longer jump and duck? No. Does this defy any sort of gameplay standard? Perhaps, since it would be unique to Luren/Uresula (Eastwind also has something no one else in the cast has), but is it unbalanced or broken? No. You previously said Luren's jumping would make him unstoppable. Luren can jump twice as high as other characters as a special move, while still retaining his ordinary jump. While he is falling, he can do a jump kick that has a different animation but the exact same effect, or he can fire a special move that will come from the farthest possible distance from the opponent (because it comes from the farthest end of the screen). This is countered by every single character with a teleport. In particular, Mileena and even Sheeva would win in this situation 99% of the time. Those who can't teleport will be able to see what he is doing from all the way across the screen and have possibly too much time to react for it to truly be effective, but we have no way of really knowing that... I don't really need to detail how balanced Uresula's is, since it boils down to little more than jumping backwards to defend against her... She has no projectiles and her anti-air has a fixed position and is entirely vertical. What I'm trying to say here, is that this principle isn't being upheld when under scrutiny, mostly because you aren't willing to look at it from any perspective deeper than a first glance... Looking at these characters in depth is what you have done the whole time, so why in this instance do you dismiss the moves without really thinking about how they would really function? On the "principle" -this one does fit my definition of a negative principle- that this sort of thing breaks some kind of unwritten gameplay rule that we, as fans, do not know the full extent of? Every character has jumps, ducks, and jump kicks... This is the standard of the game. There is nothing saying a character can't have a special move that enhances these basic tools.

Shang Tsung's morphing ability: Broken by a tag team? No. This one is my bad, since I did not include this in the entry purely by accident, but Luren-Uresula function as a single character. They do not switch out by normal tag means. They share a single health bar and when they do switch they enter the exact same position as their team mate, mid-air, on the ground, whatever. They are not a traditional tag team. They are two people whose strength depends on their connection to nature... The nature of their home realm. In order to maintain their strength, they must share a life force, since both are greatly weakened when not in the Realm of the Hunt. Again, since I left out this information by mistake, you're under no obligation to even read it (and since I've said it about three times now, I suspect no one is, haha)... But it's still the truth and it disproves the idea that morphing would be broken by the tag-team.

So in the end, I'm left wondering why your mind is completely closed to how these characters actually function if it is not bound by a restrictive principle.

Also, it is like a car with bad brakes in that Luren-Uresula do have their flaws, but the comparison doesn't hold up, because Luren-Uresula aren't required to play the game. They're required to be as good as they can in as many ways as they can... So unlike a death car, if everything is in tip-top shape except for one perceived major flaw, the good should outweigh the bad because the good is what's going to determine whether someone wants to make a character. The bad can always be changed, but good ideas don't come by nearly as often.

There's another thing that does not apply to this contest. We are not the developers. We don't have a series bible. We can (and you) only make assumptions about what the rules are and how far the developers are willing to stretch them. So, no, it is not the board I am drawing on. The difference is you liberally apply restrictions to this supposed bible and I liberally apply change, but in the end neither of us can be right because it's beyond our resources entirely.

You're assuming if Ed Boon came here to claim a character for DLC that he would bother keeping the creator's vision in tact. Yes, if he came here with the specific intent to preserve the original character, then he'd probably pick the most standard MK character... But more realistically, if he came here and picked a character, the creator's original vision would be next to meaningless and what would stand out would be the unique ideas that inspire the most innovation that can then be filtered through the MK standards. Hell, it wouldn't be surprising if he hypothetically came here and picked Luren-Uresula, but the final result in game was a different character entirely with the premise of special moves that enhance basic tools... Or the same design with a completely different move set... Or if he picked Eastwind but named him Some Kind of Spanish? With permanent question mark and exploding maracas because the only detail preserved from the original was that he was kind of tan. Heh, I'm just making fun of MK at this point...

In the end you say we should be voting for the most well-rounded decent character, but I think we should be voting for the most inventive characters, forgiving potential flaws because this isn't quite on that level of seriousness... And there will be no convincing. In my eyes (and I am more than capable of backing it up), Luren-Uresula are well-rounded in quality AND thoroughly creative, so this gameplay flaw (that does not hold up under a microscope) that to you means they absolutely should not succeed is weighing one small detail significantly more than every other, which goes against any kind of objectivity... Which is why I'm sitting rambling for an hour about something I said in passing. It's like I've baited myself. I don't mean to say you aren't being objective or that your judging criteria is flawed (especially since in most cases I agree with you), even though it may sound that way, but I do mean to present things exactly how they appear to me right now when Luren-Uresula are the example.


Also, has voting started? Did I miss that while I was ranting like a lunatic? Heh....

Sorry for misunderstanding your intentions earlier. Stupid internet doesn't have tone of voice.

Not all of those points in my post were directed to L-U, only the ones where I mentioned them by name. My apologies for being unclear. When I was talking about not being able to jump, I was actually thinking about Persephone. Other points were related to no one in particular.

About Shang Tsung's morph: The reason it breaks the morph is because he has to a) morph into two people at once, which doesn't make sense for him, or b) morph into only the one onscreen and break Luren-Uresula's own gameplay. The fact that they sort of blink into and out of each other does kind of correct this, but there was nothing in the entry to indicate this was the case. This is brand new news to me, and there's no way I could've factored that into my opinion before. Same with Luren's jumping being supposedly unstoppable: the way it was written, that was exactly what it sounded like, and only when you clarified afterward did it make more sense.

(Also, having them blink back and forth like that raises many more questions than it answers: Why do they have to combine into a single entity outside of Hunterrealm? Is it something about the realm? Or its inhabitants? Is it just some random thing that happened? Why are these two in particular joined like the universe's most bizarre Siamese twins? Does everybody have to use the buddy system when they leave the realm? What if it was a group of three? Don't they find it kind of weird to suddenly find themselves locked into the same physical space? Romantic engagements notwithstanding, of course.)

There is also another issue related to the tag-teaming, and that is the number of character models the game would have to load. The game loads four; that's why Shang in his Boss Mode gets only two extra morphs, to fill in the tag slots. But one player selecting L-U would require five models, and two players using them would require six. Again, cool idea, but they'd have to rewrite the game to work it.

As for Shao Kahn's character portrayal, the bio specifically says that he offered them food and shelter in exchange for their assistance, not that he forced their service. You may have known what you meant, but the words said something entirely different, and it's not even a matter of misinterpretation. He offered aid, and that doesn't sound a bit like Kahn, so I pointed it out.

Yes, I do admit I was a bit too picky when I said that Kahn shouldn't succumb to such an obvious deception. Kahn is paranoid enough to leave clones lying around in MKU, and has a severe distrust of his own people in MK9, but a greater entity could conceivably hypnotize him into letting his guard down. I still think it's a stretch, doing more to make Kahn look like a pushover than the new entity to look powerful. But I do acknowledge it's possible.

The good does indeed outweigh the bad against some of your opponents, and in those cases I voted for Luren-Uresula. It's not like I'm dead set against your characters, it's just that I spotted some significant problems that would likely stop them from making it into the game, so I ranked them lower than certain others who were also interesting and fit better.

We do have an idea of how far the developers are willing to stretch their own rules, because they've made nine episodes and three adventure spinoffs for us to find patterns. When I say that something is breaking a rule of Mortal Kombat, I also link to exact instances when those rules were established and upheld. I'm not making these things up off the top of my head, I'm observing what they've been doing for two decades.

My Ed Boon situation was purely hypothetical, yes. But pointing out that our characters would actually end up completely changed (which is probably true) doesn't disprove my argument nor prove yours. If anything, it means that all the effort we're putting forward would be completely meaningless once it fell in their hands, so we might as well do whatever the heck we want in this contest and expect an equal shot at winning. Cartoon chainsaw-billed platypus? Wow, that's inventive! It has nothing to do with MK but that's the idea -- breaking barriers! Surely Boon and crew can take that lump of raw, unadulterated creativity and turn it into something useful, right? I mean come on, Zebron, amirite?

That's why I added the stipulation that he would preserve our vision. Maybe WB forced his hand to do a straight-up fan character, as a publicity stunt or something. I don't know. Stranger things have happened. But my point there is that if he were to vote on our characters, he would probably vote for an inventive character that is also compatible with their game, because hypothetically, we're making these characters for them.

See, I can explain away all the reasons for their body swapping shenanigans, but I left it out of the entry so it doesn't matter. Yes, it is particular to their species, they are greatly weakened by leaving their home realm. There's a whole lot of mumbo jumbo involved in the process of life force sharing to be certain and they absolutely find it weird, heh, but with how simplistic and non-explanatory MK concepts are, it's never been a significant detail to me.. This makes it more similar to a real MK bio, which I think is important for such an outlandish character. Though I did intend to mention it at some point, I don't know why I didn't.

I also did not know there was a specific amount of models the game could load. Is it capable of loading five? Perhaps. Does it? Apparently not... But I don't have a manual for what the MK engine is capable of, heh, and I suspect there are many other creators with little to no knowledge of this sort of thing. This is one of those esoteric rules! Haha... Still, it's all hypothetical. If Luren-Uresula were intended to be in the game from the beginning, then they would have made it able to load six models. Is it a fair criticism? Eh, that's kind of a 50/50 there.

It does not say that he forced their service, true, but it does strongly imply that he is being manipulated by a more powerful force (but not until the ending, which spares Kahn's delicate ego a bit... Though, if we're talking fitting into the game, details like this in Eastwind's, Phantom's, Kira's, Luren-Uresula's, etc... bios would change. All of these small details or large lengths would be scraps on the editing room floor, which kind of neutralizes the criticism for me), which negates some of his ruthlessness. Anyway, I didn't mean to go into their story so much as I wasn't trying to defend them or convince you of anything (as my edit reflects, heh), but I went off on a tangent. Can't help it. I made them so I have a lot to say about them.

Just a small thought on Shang Tsung... Would it necessarily be bad if Shang Tsung got a nerfed version of a character like this when he morphed into them? If he only morphs into one of them, they are capable of operating on their own. They share all the normal moves and have their own special moves (and can use the other partner's special moves with use of meter except for Acrobatics/Evasion)... So if anything, I kind of like the idea that Shang doesn't have complete access to the character. It would just be something in their favor in the match up and add additional layers to Shang Tsung's gameplay in that particular fight: Picking which one the player values more.

Enough about Luren-Uresula, though. I'm getting tired of seeing their name... And I will probably start referring to them as L-U as well... Luren-Uresula is unpleasant to type... Though it kind of flows nicely as one ridiculously long name... But enough of that! The difference here is value of precedents. There are a number of things that show the MK team's limits and all that jazz, but all of these games also show just how much they are willing to change. You could say that the standard was set back in the day in the 2d games, but then I could say the 3d games completely revamped the entire fighting system. Say there was a KAK contest back then and someone created a character they wanted to see in the next sequel, but they gave them a fighting style like those in the 3d games before those games existed. Everyone would say this character wasn't MK and it broke the rules, but a few years later that creator would be proven right with the release of a completely different game. At that time is the character out of place? Yeah... But everyone would have seen that in the end, the game was willing to go to such extremes. Then we got death traps. Then Armageddon had us fighting in the air and brought a brand new fatality system... Then comes MK9 and we're back on a 2d plane with the original formula... But now we have super moves and meter and whatnot. They've set boundaries, but they've also repeatedly torn them down. This is true with design too. First with the release of MK3 greatly broadening MK's scope, then the 3d games bringing much more culture to the now tired classic designs. This is possibly the best thing about MK, is that unlike other fighting games MK is always providing a new experience.

Alas, all of this discussion just leads us to your next point that it "doesn't disprove my argument nor prove yours", which can apply to most everything we've said, heh. But, long winded discussions are always better than creator apathy, I guess, so... *shrug* But if we're talking chainsaw platypus, we might as well throw in an amazing technicolor MK ninja with a spear throw, blade arms, Kira's other fatality, and rolling thunder! It certainly fits in and does not break a single rule, heh.

If "switching hunters is instant and necessary, even mid-combo," then having Shang only use one hunter would break their combo system. He should either morph fully into their shared life form, or maybe not even morph at all and just drain energy -- though the latter seems like a cop-out.



You have a good point about all those evolutions of the fighting engine, but when I'm talking about the Rules of MK I usually mean the story canon and established character traits. But even in the gameplay, there are still certain key elements that don't really change from game to game, because those are the things that make MK what it is. Yes, they love to expand on the basic play with 3D walking, style branching, death traps, X-rays, and so on -- but the core foundations of the game are pretty well set.

Ducking, for example: watch these top players in action, and you'll see how crippled their game would be if double-ducking led to them flopping on the ground. I don't dislike L-U's moves because they're unique and innovative, I dislike them because I wouldn't want to play a character that punishes me for strategic ducking. I like uncomplicated ducking in Mortal Kombat.

I think what this debate really comes down to is that my criteria are much more unforgiving than yours. You can look at a character and say, "Hey, this guy seems interesting. Let's make it work!" Whereas I look at a character and say, "Hey, this guy seems interesting. Does it work?" And then if I keep reading and find out you'd have to change 3/4 of an entry to actually see it in the game, I quickly lose that spark of interest. The closer the character looks to a finished product that you could see making it into a real game, the more impressed I am.



MKD had long, two-part bios. The key is telling enough of the story. Leaving some mystery is great, but leaving us wondering how the heck did these two inhabit the same body? is not great.

(As you can probably tell, I'm just as much of a sucker for long-winded discussions as you are, so don't feel too bad. )

@ Mick-Lucifer: So um... when is the voting officially getting underway, anyway? Three people have already jumped on it, haha.