I did try to keep this brief. I think it shows, heh.

Shang Tsung: Switching is instant and necessary, even mid-combo. This is true, IF your combo requires the use of the other hunter's special moves and you have no meter to spare. Since they both share all the same normal moves and special moves are not the only thing they're able to combo with, it wouldn't break their gameplay. Would Shang Tsung's version be weaker? Not necessarily, since L-U can operate independently without much penalty, but it would definitely require a different strategy. Anyway, this ain't too important, just a passing thought I had.

Ducking: Is it flopping or is it just a more effective duck? A more effective duck. The only difference is that her special duck is lower than normal ducks. She does not flop! Heh, and it does specifically say that the only way to make her move is with three directional inputs. Three. Duck once. Good. Accidentally tap down twice. Better duck. Good. Accidentally tap down twice then accidentally tap left or right: Worst case scenario you've got a 50/50 (perhaps better) chance of dodging an attack by accident. Solution? Swan. Now you're safe. Whether or not to complicate ducking is a choice the player has here unless said player is having thumb tremors, heh, but in that case is this really going to be any worse than all the other problems they'll be having? Nope.

You say changing 3/4 of an entry, but that is exaggerating. I wouldn't forgive three fourths of an entry. I forgive one big flaw or a couple of minor flaws if the rest is good enough. Would you say that 3/4 of L-U is not forgivable? Because they are the sort of character I mean when I say I forgive a flaw, not... Well, I won't give names, but pick a character that is more cons than pros and there you go. This isn't a matter of ignoring flaws, it's the weight given to them. My weight is more in favor of the creator, who is really involved in this process, not the system that can be no more than hypotheticals.

What I meant by 'scraps on the editing room floor' is that when you brought up a very small detail left out of L-U's story to keep the bio brief (as it would be in game), I countered with the loads of tiny details in Eastwind's (to a lesser extent than some others with truly extreme bios) story that would not be present in game. I wasn't calling their flaws the scraps to be ignored (which appears to be how you responded to it), but the small details that go beyond the in-game level of depth. Especially when fitting the in-game precedents without the need for editing is something you strongly support. For example, Mileena's bio says absolutely nothing about her intentions or goals, nothing about how other characters treat her, only how she was made, a bit about her personality, and that she loves her papa. So, what is more important here? Small details in the bio or fitting in with the game's standards for a character's story?

We're probably over thinking this, heh...

Ah. The way it's worded in the entry, it sounds like their regular combos work like Tag Combos, which require a Noob-Smoke style branch input to pull off, which would definitely be broken if Shang had access to only one character. The way you describe it now, it makes sense. Lacking clarity and detail seems to be the source of many, if not all, of our misunderstandings here.



Watch that video closely. Double-ducking and duck-shuffling are common and necessary strategies. Double-ducking is not something a player necessarily does "accidentally," or because they have coordination problems. Having firm control on your positioning is key, and if your efforts to duck and scoot forward result in doing anything other than exactly that, it is not beneficial.

By the way, I say "flopping on the ground" because according to the description, that's what she does. "When Uresula ducks, tapping the duck button again quickly will flatten her to the ground...." When I think of someone flattening to the ground at a fast pace, I think "flopping." Sorry.



I'm also not naming names, but for some characters with decent popular appeal here 3/4 is not an exaggeration. And no, I don't count L-U among those. I was really just throwing "3/4" around to be dramatic, it wasn't specifically pointed at you.

Obviously the Evasion move bothers me, as well as the tagging, because they open up so many game and story holes to patch over. That's the major flaw by my reckoning. I like Uresula's costumes but not Luren's, because in both of his I think of Cirque du Soleil instead of Mortal Kombat and it's hard for me to take that seriously. That's a medium to minor flaw. The story I actually have little problem with except for how it seems to handle Kahn, but it really is a minor thing. Another thing I haven't brought up yet is the randomized 1-4% per hit damage bonus for Luren, which could lead to him totally wiping out an opponent with sheer luck. That sort of thing I'd expect to be inadmissible in a competitive setting, and a source of untold pissy fits in casual play.

On the plus side, I like the Realm of the Hunt -- if these two looked more like fearsome hunters, I'd be totally sold on the whole Hunterrealm idea. I also like that Kahn decides to recruit renowned hunters, even though his motive here is a little shaky. I like Uresula's look and personality, and her Fatality is clever and graphic.

Honestly, I'm starting to think this entry would have a lot more appeal to me if she just ditched Luren and struck out on her own. That eliminates most of the game complications, and she has a much stronger presence anyway -- so much that I keep having to correct myself and say "they" instead of "she" when I talk about them together. Luren just feels like a tag-along, lacking personality, a needlessly complicating gimmick that's really holding Uresula back from being a top-notch solo character.



Yeah, I realized that I'd misread that and edited my post. You probably just missed the edit while typing, because you quoted my update.

The in-game precedents I support have more to do with keeping the characters and canon intact, than the actual writing of the Bio blurb. I've said a few times before that in a contest like this, we should tell as much story as needs to be told to fully introduce the character. We don't have a bunch of previous games' worth of background to introduce our guys for us; the MK9 bios mostly rely on us already knowing most of the history, and only really serve as a reminder. Plus every new character since MKDA had a Konquest or Story mode to fill in the blanks, a luxury we don't have. Here in this contest, we need to cram in character origins and goals and get a sense of personality across all in one shot, which is a lot to ask for a one-paragraph introduction. So I'm actually very forgiving on the bios (though I agree the four-course fanfics with full dialogue and choreographed action are a bit much to digest).

Endings, however, I prefer to be more game-sized since they don't carry the same burden. I like to be able to picture the ending in the comic-ish format of the later games.

So with Eastwind I tried to write an engaging story for his background so that people could get a good feel for what he's all about, and I did trim away some details I thought were unneeded. The result has roughly the same length and pacing as the few MKA bios that were released, so my "like the games" principle still does hold true. And his ending is paced just like an MK9 ending.



'Tis better to overthink than underthink, I think.

I don't know about you, but I've really been enjoying this conversation. You're quite the challenging debate opponent.

The quote swallowed my response and I just re-quoted the whole thing when I didn't feel like looking through the text wall. This is when your edit time traveled into my reply, heh.

Yeah, clarity and detail are definitely something L-U should have had in abundance, I agree. Because the premise is complicated it is probably best to have as much detail as possible, but could you imagine if the entry had everything I've elaborated on in it? Holy baby Jesus, what a read, haha... How much weight does what readers ignore have in a contest like this? To me the format is better suited for a short and sweet character package, which is perhaps an inherent incompatibility between the format and the concept. My only real defense of this is that while the elaboration is not in the entry, neither are the misunderstandings. It depends on how far and in what direction the reader's imagination is going to take what they read. With a more analytical reader, questions will definitely be raised, but these questions exist somewhat outside the entry itself, concerning flaws that are neither confirmed nor denied by the entry. While my entry might be hogging up this conversation, I think all of this applies to many other entries as well.

As for tight competition and jumping/duck shuffling/double ducking etc... I think this boils down to something that helps the player decide whether L-U (or Persephone, as another example, though I'm not sure to what extent you disagree with her specifically) are playable for them, but does not outright make them less viable or broken in this sort of match. It does make them somewhat inaccessible to certain kinds of players, but I don't think this is really a flaw. High learning curve and precision are a part of the concept as much as big hair and the 'poon. Is it arguable that many players would struggle with this or dislike it in an intense match? Maybe. But calm and collected players exist as well, and L-U are meant for them from the beginning. Unique, exclusive, high risk, and high reward. Oh, and untold pissy fits. This is another my bad, haha, I meant 1-4% depending on the move used and am apparently terrible at paraphrasing... Or change my mind too frequently and forget I've done so. Though, I think these two can't avoid pissy fits. Can you imagine some mediocre online complainer encountering these guys for the first time?

Ah, then we agree on story. My story was shortened due to pressure in the last KAK to do so. I did Annette, whose story was much too long and elaborate... She even had a chapter in story mode. I'm all for the detailed backstories, but I went in thinking the general attitude would be the same of last year. A bit of complaining and not a lot of reading. By these less irritating standards, Eastwind's story is the perfect length and has just the right amount of detail. Though, my aim here was to point out something that appeared contradictory.

Anyway, I think a big point here that you've made (about L-U, not the creative process) is something I have also said in a different conversation. Their problems boil down to the team aspect and the presence of Luren. As their creator, this is what I think is their major flaw, because in the end it doesn't live up to what I wanted. With Annette last year I wanted two beings in one body, but wasn't imaginative enough to make her "partner" feel truly present in her design and move pool, though he was deeply rooted in her story. With L-U I wanted to perfect the same concept, but balance the gameplay and the story, while limited by this notion that people wanted shorter stories this time.... But this time the secondary character (which is obviously Luren) is too present (gameplay) and not present/well-conceived enough all at once (flavor). Uresula is in many ways the one that stands out, though probably because her hair is so big, how could you miss her? And this is why I feel I can look at them objectively and why it won't hurt if they don't win. Granted, I'd like them to make it as far as possible and someone drawing them all fancy like is something I would love, but I'm okay with defeat too because I know I'm capable of perfecting this idea and self-improvement is my biggest motivator.

I enjoy a good debate thoroughly, I'm just accustomed to a bit of hostility so I'm reluctant to do so... But there's a happy medium in this conversation with no insults and perhaps most shockingly a willingness to look at different perspectives, heh.

You guys can name names, considering we all know you're referring to *ahem* a certain "7-foot montrous scorpion ninja."
But to be honest, Umbra brings a great point. Copying himself into one character when both are described as important to the combos makes Shang's morph useless, and if they both aren't important to the combos, there is no point of having another character.
And about ducking, giving a super-duck to your character adds nothing to it's use, unless your Ric Flair.

Heh, I'm not about to start a second debate here, but you can find my response to this in my above post. To summarize: Both characters are important in advanced playing, but are also capable of operating independently with less options, which is strongly implied in the entry, giving merit to the second character's existence and the independence of the individuals... This does not take into account whether morphing into them would even be useful in the first place in this match up. AND, It is not a super duck, it's the ability to move while ducking that is at first initiated by ducking lower than normal upon a second button input, which is a bit of a visual cue and perhaps a defense against certain overhead moves. Good day, sir.

Hoping to resolve a couple delays. We'll wrap it up this coming week.

@Harle:
Oops. Sorry, typing on a Wii takes FOREVER. I did read your implication, and now understand it.

I know KAK VIII won't be around for a while, but I find myself working on my character every chance I get.

I got the creative juice flowin'!

Yeah, I know what you mean. Eastwind was about 85% done by a week after the last contest ended.

Rik'Ki was created within a day. I have the tendency to create and create and create and not know an end. Having an entire day to work on one character and not have the intention of creating another was wonders for me.

Perfect example is my animation production studio class. We had to think of a story idea that would be workable for a five minute short film... There's eight kids in the class. Everyone had three ideas. I had ten. And the worse thing was, I still had more ideas after I pitched mine... It just couldn't stop.

So, clearly you can understand why I limited myself to work for a single day out of many that we had before the contest started. That and I keep forgetting to check up on this part whenever I'm on the site... Classes are hectic this semester but I'm hanging in there.

I'm the exact same way, hehehe... I've already come up with two different ideas for the next one... And there were probably six or seven for this one. It's madness! Deadlines are the only thing that stops me, heh. Even then, I can't count the number of times something of mine never got finished because I pretended the deadline didn't exist.

I guess that makes three of us. lol

Below is a sig I made of just five characters I created, one of them being Oksana, my entry for KAKVI.

(in order from the left) Persephone, Judas, Oksana, Kali, Velia

Riyakou, I like Kali (the witch?) because of her mysterious, dark image and her original features. Judas looks like Shang Tsung, Oksana looks a bit like Lara Croft, and Velia looks like she is wearing the MK:DA Kitana outfit. I still like Persephone, though, but I would also like to see Kali developed.

Except for a description or two, the text for my new character is done. He is very violent and his moves/fatalities are more original. The only problem I am encountering is rendering hair on Adobe Illustrator, as my character is very hairy.

lol No, she's not a witch.

Kali, whose name is derived from the Hindu goddess of destruction, is the protector goddess of Seido. Her will to claim and conserve order at any cost is what made the realm what it is today.

I can't go any further than that, really. I might enter her one day. I will say, however, that I base a lot of the character on the actual Hindu goddess, which explains the black attire and dark skin.

Here's a couple of other images of her, I guess it's right that I show them now.

If I were to go through my SC characters there'd be at least another 150 ideas to sort through, heh. It used to be a hobby of mine to do absolutely nothing in that game but make characters. Very few of them had any sort of 'story', but of my 100 hours or so playing each SC? 99 of em' were spent creating costumes. Of course, by that time you start to run out of unique faces.... But I never ran out of unique looks. This is especially true in SCV... You can make an entire costume out of those bumpy stickers if you wanted to... And I have... I think I made an awesome look out of nothing more than the texture made by stretching zippers to extremes.

I tend to use Soulcalibur quite often to create the looks for my characters; it does make a pretty good outlet for folks who aren't that good at drawing.

I would love to use Armageddon more, like I used to, but I don't have the means to play (or buy) it at the moment.

I actually recently downloaded the Saints Row the Third Initiation Station demo onto my laptop, and I'm going to see how that goes towards creating good costumes. I've played SR3 before (and I love it!), but not to make original characters.

What other site?

You have sparked an interest in researching Hindu goddesses. As of now, I only know about Shiva as the goddess of destruction (and resurrection). The overprotective Seido god theme sounds a bit like the corrupted Raiden from MK:D. As for the thought of Kali perhaps being a witch, I saw the hat and believed it was reminiscent of one. Her appearance reminds me a bit like I-No from Guilty Gear XX, except she does not wield a guitar as a weapon.

So far, I'm 0-2 for knowing about your characters, but they are cool regardless. As I said before, the dark images really sell Kali, and I would like to see her in the next contest.

I did not think of using MKA or SC4 for easy and realistic character rendering. Do you know if PS2 games work on PS3? I'll probably still finish this year's character on Illustrator, though.

I guess that's four like thar. I already have SIX full concepts, and one I've already got 90% of his sprite done on.

Shiva is a male; you might be confusing him with the MK character Sheeva.



I don't really think it's similar to Raiden in Deception.

Raiden's train of thought was corrupted after dying trying to save Earthrealm from Onaga. Kali is merely an extreme dictator, whose brutal tactics to keep a realm under order makes her borderline evil.

I think it would be nice to have a protector deity of that kind; it makes sort of a good opposite to Raiden.



Not sure what that means.

Is that bad?



Here's a nice list of backwards compatible games from both the PS2 and PS1. I hope it helps.

After reading about Shiva and Kali, I found out that they are both destructive deities, but Kali (a four-armed female) is believed to give Shiva (a four-armed male) the destructive power. More information can be found here: http://www.dollsofindia.com/library/kali/. As for the "0-2" comment, I guess it might be a negative for me since I misjudged Persephone (as a Saurian goddess) and Kali (as a witch). But you clarified my misconceptions, hopefully without being offended. Hope to see Kali in the next tournament, as she sounds great.

Nah, I wasn't offended.

Persephone is in fact a goddess; she just isn't a Saurian. Kali of course is a goddess as well, which I have stated too many times now.

Anyhoo, I've already set my character for the next tournament, so I'm afraid Kali will have to sit that one out as well.

If only we could enter more than one character... Hey, Mick-Lucifer!

I have my entry, I just don't know which of my creations it is.

With everyone's surge of ideas, we should all request a semi-annual contest.

That would be cool, but only if the admins can handle the workload on top of other site duties. Prizes probably aren't easy either.