Your maturity is impressive, that was almost funny...nice to see someone who rarely if ever posts and then when they do it's irrelevant remarks, kudos.

Don't feed the troll.

^You're right Luca^


On a Sonya related note, I'd like to respond to LEO's amazing post, he had some great insights.

Yeah, on that note? I'm SO SORRY that LeoBrZ81's post became a casualty of merging this thread into an update. I hope we can eventually get this back on topic after this mess dies down and talk about that.

... huh, imagine that. Merged just TWO ideas into a thread that wasn't designed for it and good topics and posts get lost, derailed, and obscured... I wonder what THIRTY ideas merged together would be like...

Okay, that was so unsubtle it HURT.

A shame, because that glorious post will have to wait for this matter to actually be clarified or at least to cool off.

What the fuck is Garlador supposed to do now with his KOTW threads? There doesn't seem to be any kind of compromise from the mods to actually encourage him and help him continue with this lovely contributions that made the forum such a lively and awesome place.

I also want to add that its very convenient for the mods that Garlador's thread about this matter had to be closed.

I, sincerely, don't think he deserved this kind of offensive and insulting treatment:



The reasons given to him are bullshit and he, at the very least, deserves an apology from Mick for the disrespectful and uncalled for remarks.

FEELSGOODMAN

The KOTW threads have always been about discussion of the character, not the person who posted them. Yes, he puts a great deal of work into them with the jokes and the edited images, and that's worthy of some appreciation (especially the costume renders, which I have said before I wish he'd put in a fan art thread of their own where they'd be easier to find and perhaps more "on-topic") but the idea that these threads are "attention seeking" or ABOUT Garlador in any way is patently absurd.
I'd have to say, the first time I've ever seen anyone make Garlador himself a subject of discussion in these threads was here and now, because of you, Mick. So...nice work.

Glad we share the sentiment. Obviously this isn't Garlador Online. To somehow generalize his KOTW's contributions as "MKO status quo" is to cheapen the creative individuality that again, would be better served CELEBRATING.



C'mon Mick, no shit. You of all people should recognize that this is a site policy that's being used to justify a mandated disruption of weekly post thread...all in the name of "organizations greater good".

Except not really. You're making claims that indicate this decision is based on deterring "Mortal Garlador Onlline" while maintaining that (paraphrase) "we don't object morally or ostensibly to Garlador's posts, it's jut that we need to set a precedent for this new site restructure."




Horseshit. Chalking this urgent surge of newfound unifying moderation up to lackadaisical moderation is belittling to the community. Especially since we're specifically talking about Garlador's KOTW.

Garlador is the poster on this forum that has kept me coming back every week, to see what new KOTW he's come up with. Instead of being jealous of the attention he gets from it, you could put things into perspective and realize he's bringing you good traffic and active posting from members (most topics here are pretty dead, in between MK games).

I think it's outrageous, really, the way your moderation team has dealt with this. I don't think any of this was necessary. Garlador didn't do anything wrong, his posts are AMAZING and include incredibly designed fan art/alternate costumes. Putting them in another forum doesn't make sense, and neither does merging the tons of posts into one topic (that's insane).

The comments I've seen from mods that are anti-Garlador have really turned me off. Moderation out of control. What you guys are doing isn't moderating, it's bullying (example, the snide remark about how this isn't his forum). If this continues, and Garlador stops posting here, then so will I. Hell 90% of the time that I come here is to see if he's posted something new. How dare you, mods, insult one of your most admired and talented posters. Really. TOTALLY unnecessary. You should apologize to him, publicly.

As a pretty much regular reader of these KOTW threads I think it would be better to continue having separate threads for each character.


Jaded-Raven brought up a good (very likely to happen) problem:




Plus, as Espio already pointed out, every KOTW thread has easily accessible (posted near the top, easy to find) links that lead to previous KOTWs, so finding a specific character discussion is easy. If it were all in one thread, finding a character specific original post would be easy, but finding all posts that relate to that specific character would be quite a process because of the problem Jaded-Raven brought up.

Damn, we never even got to Jade, or Kitana, or Sindel. I was really looking forward to those.

My suggestion would be to create a thread for that character and have a link to a blog or a site or something where you have your character stuff on. All the pictures and your rants and everything about the character.

These KOTW threads are awesome and really fun to read. I would hate to see them go. I think you should create a blog or website with all your stuff on it for each character and create a thread here for the KOTW character with a link to your website, then we can discuss it here.

Utter nonsense. Garlador's KOTW posts, aside from being the most entertaining thing this forum's seen in a while, have sparked intriguing discussion on each character he's covered. Not one has spiraled down into pointlessness flame wars, or really strayed off-topic, that I've seen.

There's no threat of 'clutter' in a forum that gets an average of what, seven new threads a week? If that? To consolidate them into one will do nothing but further demonstrate how little's actually happening hereabouts.

This is completely disrespectful to the work he's put into them and reeks of jealousy. If he's been praised for them, it's because his works are deserving of it. If "other users" are just as worthy of attention, they need to make posts as good and as insightful as his. Simple.

I'm sorry, but, why should he even have to go to through all that trouble when that very something is still intended to be discussed here, in MKO? Its ridiculous!

Garlador has done nothing but contribute to the website with his insightful, fun, greatly written and well analyzed posts. Whether some (or just one) people like to admit it or not, he has been one of the few who has helped to keep this community alive and has not broken any kind of rule, so, why does it have to be this messy all of the sudden?

No one still understands how his KOTW threads are creating 'clutter' or 'overshadowing other users'...and all that bullshit about 'Mortal Garlador Online' is just outrageous and absolutely false. The disrespectful, petulant, uncalled for, and snide remarks made against Garlador are simply disgusting.

Having a separe blog or posting this in a different website, then linking it here in MKO so it can finally be discussed sounds absolutely ridiculous and makes no fucking sense. Should we all start doing the same then? Lets make a thread in another website, and then make a topic here in MKO with a link to that external thread, and then lets get back to MKO so we can discuss it here!

And the mods acting like there's nothing wrong or nothing stupid about a single thread featuring over 30 character discussions separated only by "links" is bullshit.

This is an MK website for MK discussions that are taking place in their due forum. Why is that being restricted and why should it be OK that worthy posts are suddenly diminished and undervalued and that their posters are treated with offense?

TonyTheTiger, Crow, myself, Ghostdragon, ThePredator151, Jerrod, Subman799, [Killswitch], Mick-Lucifer. The team is more than myself and Mick. Throwing this out there.



Nobody said the content wasn't great. Consolidating it into a single thread does not sound to me like the absurd and totally evil request that you guys are making it out to be.



Please refer to my first point.



I'm going to copy and paste my first post which was apparently ignored by everyone:

-----

My suggestion:

Create a single thread. Have the first post as a set of links, for example:

Kano discussion - Page 1
Raiden discussion - Page 3
Skarlet discussion - Page 7

Each link of course simply linking to the pages with the actual KOTW posts. That's a GOOD layout, and a nice way to archive everything (If you also added links to the existing threads, in the end you would have a nicely organized index of all the characters). This also prevents people from having to search for a past KOTW discussion thread in previous pages and bumping them if they want to add something. And it will let people know which characters have been covered, and what you have yet to discuss.

-----



A blog format was also suggested earlier.

I don't really know what to say to you guys. Clearly you've taken this way out of context as it has little to nothing to do with Garlador. The forums will be going through changes. New webmaster, new direction. And that probably means a slight shift in moderation principle, as well as a willingness to go along with it, at least for the time being. I'm sure it's hard see the bigger picture, but it's absurd to think it doesn't exist.



I'm not disagreeing with the points about the threads. I think it could probably continue as it has been. But drama is being created where there really ought not to be any.

I suggest you talk to the Forum Director (TonyTheTiger). It's out of my hands.

I know where Mick-Lucifer stands on this, though I don't know how the rest of the staff feels. At one point, I was a part of this very staff, and I've already received messages of support from many off the very staff members you listed.

I'll contact TonyTheTiger, if he's the one who has ultimate authority. I'm eager to hear his opinions on this.

Still, a lot of the drama was created due to slanderous and snide remarks about my intentions and character, dismissed and unprofessional responses to legitimate questions and complaints, and arrogance and bullying tactics used for reasons I'm perplexed by.

"Drama" exists whenever someone messes with a formula that was working. Demanding members of this site change their ways due to threads, and I quote, "that veer outside the expected norms of the forum" and "they do dance quite loosely around the topics we expect to populate the forum", "a reform with the ideal being getting some sense of order and clarity back into the boards"... that's baffling in itself, and I may not understand or agree with that that but I wouldn't take it personally. My last post about this matter was closed because "This post was not what I had in mind" and because it wasn't what someone ELSE had in mind, it didn't matter what I had in mind.

What I WOULD take personally? "Ultimately, there's an element of attention seeking that simply cannot be afforded to everyone, or it'll be anarchy." "[R]emember that this is not Garlador Kombat Online. There is an entire community to consider", and that I would just give in and do things THEIR way "if you're in it for content (and not just attention mongering)."

... How could I not be a bit put off and offended? Perhaps that was just (a series of) poor wording, but it does nothing to instill any sense or desire for compromise to be antagonistically treated and to be slammed with ultimatums and illogical demands. I asked for an apology; I've received none.

Here's the thing; I'm against internet censorship, of any kind. I'm against internet regulation. I'm being told to stifle creativity, to change my standards and my hard-thought organization of what would be a year-long endeavor. You know what else I stood proudly against in the past few months? That stupid SOPA bill that recently died in Congress that would've harmed the internet as we know it.



Hey! Look at that! A retarded, reviled bill that would give other people the power to tell you what you can do on the internet, how you can enjoy the internet, what you can post, where you can post, to censor the fun and entertainment and creativity that makes the internet and forums such a wonderful place to be.

And we stood against that because, you know, that bill SUCKED. Nobody wanted that. Nobody was willing to trade their freedom, livelihoods, and creativity in for more "organization" or "regulations". Why on EARTH would I stand against SOPA and then be okay with MKO doing the very same thing to me on these forums?

I'm not doing it "for myself" but for this community. Why? Because I saw we were hurting for content. I wanted to keep people here and keep them talking. I wanted to draw more people here and get them involved. And, forgive my "ego", I think I succeeded.

I'll be in touch with TonyTheTiger. As it stands, I strongly believe that a single, messy thread of over 30 competing character discussions would destroy my threads because, and here's what I feel a few mods don't understand... if I wanted attention and didn't care about the community, I WOULD create an official Garlador's thread where I post funny pictures and witty dialogue and everyone just comments on my pictures and jokes. But I created these threads to talk, not about my thread, but about the CHARACTERS of the thread. The CHARACTERS are the highlights and focus of each KOTW. A unified thread would NOT be conducive to individual character discussions, character focus, and character appreciation. A single thread would KILL character discussion on a large scale, which was absolutely my full and entire reason for KOTW threads.

Yes, I CAN make a single thread (if I make some sacrifices). But, no, I absolutely refuse to believe that would make my posts "better", give the site more "organization", or even that this is what anyone who has read them WANTS to do or deal with. I know and understand that Ninja_Mime is trying to help, and I thank him for it. If he didn't want these to continue, he wouldn't be suggesting ways they could, even if they end up messy and compromised. Better than NOTHING, right?

And, for the last time, I created these threads for the community here, and I refuse to give them my time and talent in a structure that they are currently and universally rejecting alongside me.

Keep MKO clean. I agree. Keep it organized. Keep it functional. But I firmly believe it is not any staff member's place to step in and tell me, you, any of us what and how we should talk and discuss this game in the way that the community at large wants to. That is the difference between a website that understands it exists for its USERS and one that falsely believes that a website is THEIRS and others just have the "privilege" to use it.

We appreciate your responses Ninja. Two things:

1) It has already been explained why consolidating everything into one single huge thread (separating each specific discussion by links) is such a bad idea. This has been stated by more than just one person and we all know better than to pretend like that won't become a problematic cluster. Clearly, there is a big problem with this suggestion. It hasn't been ignored, quite the contrary. It just doesn't work.

2) Considering the disrespectful posts that were made and all the nonsense which has been addressed by various members above, I don't think anything has been taken "out of context" or made into a big dramatic thing "that shouldn't really be". How are members, not just including Garlador, supposed to react to the statements that were made to (against) him?

Wow...this is seriously messed up.

I'm more concerned with how these "policies" would affect ALL of us... not just me. I mean, yes, I sort of feel like the poster boy for these sudden changes and abrupt crackdowns on worthwhile content, but I would VERY much like and encourage others to do posts like mine... and I'm bothered if they, like I, won't be able to.

To LUCA who said character-sub forums, that would be fucking awesome. We would be going into the right direction, you could have mods for the sub forums, that would most likely solve the problem, but that will never happen.

His threads were gdlk... Why take them away?

(I can't bother to read this much shit lol sorry.)

Whao whoa whoa dude, seriously? The condescension in your reply to me was over the top. You didn't address most of the things I said.

I don't think your "cleaning up" Garlador's topics is stupid because the content of his topics is amazing. I think it's stupid because logistically, it's stupid. One thread with a hundred pages of posts and pictures is insane. Whenever someone would post in it, it would bump the thread to the top...but you wouldn't know which Kombatant the newest post is about without opening the thread and reading through it! That's super messy and really unprofessional. I'm not going to do that. I would probably miss a lot of cool posts, if that was the case. There hasn't been any clutter as a result of his topics. Hell, most of the time there's only like 2 topics from him on the first page of the forum! It's not like he's posting a KOTW every day. There's NO clutter! I haven't seen anyone complaining, either. The only complaints now are that you're overstepping and misusing your power.

I still think you need to apologize to Garlador. Here, in front of everybody. You made a mistake, and I think you know you did. Man up, dude.

Are the moderators even reading the discussion here? It seems like they just keep saying the same things, no matter how immaculately refuted they are.

I would say it is time for Mick-Lucifer and Ninja_Mime to step down as part of the staff of this site. Clearly they can't manage it, as proven in this particular case. And with their resignation, an apology to Garlador would be appropriate.

So are the admins going to address the obvious absurdity of asking Garlador to condense 30 character discussions into a single thread, or are we just going to keep pretending like that would solve the "problem" instead of substantially compounding it?


Why am I still posting here?

You know what... I can't. I can't just be a lurker anymore now that I've been directed to what's going on in this thread. There is so much ignorance going on here, it's mind-boggling. It reminds me why I left and makes me wonder why I'm making this post, but alas, I press on.

I can vaguely understand why this decision has been made. It will make the forum look less cluttered, and that in turn gives a cleaner appearance. You guys may not like it initially, but it isn't the end of the world. I know absolutely nothing about what changes are coming, but I do talk to Mick on a somewhat regular basis still so what I can say is that in the long run, they'll benefit this place. He's thinking long-term. Yes, this sucks immediately. I won't dispute that. I loved reading these threads and thought they were very well put together, especially since one could argue that they were the last bit of original content this site has. However, think big picture here. Things are still changing around here and there will be a time and a place for things of this nature down the road. Don't. Worry.

Now, to the other side (and what angers me) of this thread. Not one of you has stepped back from what you think about this and put yourself in Mick's (or whoever you choose to blame here) shoes. He's stepping into the webmaster role of a site that has been stagnant for years. Change is absolutely necessary, and it doesn't have to be popular change. Regardless of what you think of this decision, I know Mick well enough to know that he's thinking in the best interest of MKO as a site. This place hasn't catered to its community in years with no complaints, and now there's an uprising? Those of you who are calling for Mick and/or Mime to step down are taking this way too seriously. This is an internet forum. It is not your whole life, it is not going to drive you insane, and it should never be more than (at most) a hobby to any of us. Mick's in charge now. Shit is going to change. You guys can either:

a) Deal with it, and try to be a positive contributor to MKO.
b) Leave.
c) Bitch, moan, and accomplish nothing.

Since 100% of you picked C, you are all going to continue complaining and accomplishing nothing other than pissing off the mods/staff. If that gets your rocks off, then by all means continue to do so. And for the record, anyone who thinks Mime is in the wrong here is simply looking for people to blame. Mime very calmly stated alternatives and tried his hardest to explain the situation, and some of you are going at him for it? He's representing the staff and not doing so in a negative way whatsoever. I applaud him.

Garlador, again, your threads are and were fantastic. Keep doing what you're doing. It sucks that you can't do it here, but I hope that doesn't curb your enthusiasm so much that you decide not to at least put your work out there somewhere.

I guess my point is, and I can say this from experience, that publicly chastising staff members isn't going to get any of you anywhere, regardless of whether or not they had done the same to you. If it were up to me, I'd allow the threads to continue as planned, but again, I somewhat understand the staff decision here.

Direct your anger at me for all I care, I probably won't come back to this thread after I post regardless. m0sh out.

We are currently undertaking measures to improve the site as a whole and appreciate everyones input. This series of measures includes a reform of forum moderation and design in the interest of expanding accessibility and creating a greater degree of order and clarity in how people, new and old, can find interesting topics. Suggestions in this direction have already begun to be made, and adjustment will continue in as painless and unintrusive a manner as possible. It will require that, though, a period of adjustment.

Forum users are always encouraged to enjoy conversations about the games, characters and ideas that permeate within the franchise. Users are also encouraged to share their works in the always popular Fan Submission forum, and using third-party resources (such as blogs) that can be featured in poster signatures.

In the interest of good conversation, MKO will always be sensitive to the minutia of topics and the varying degrees of interest different types of users will show. Specific veins of a topic will always be encouraged to be kept contained in a single, easy to access thread. While it is always the onus of posters to make an effort to follow on-going discussions, this reform will attempt to support peoples conversations in a positive direction.

I, Mick-Lucifer, have contacted Garlador with this larger picture in mind, in the hopes that it would allow him to prepare and adjust his approach accordingly. The material contained in these posts is specifically branded with Garladors name, and veers into sometime esoteric tangents not readily supported by conventional conversation. It is specific in nature, and while the creativity is appreciated, more easily associated with third-party blog content. There has never been any request to revise existing threads, which should be catalogued appropriately in an orderly fashion in the first post of a single thread (along with directions to updates), if a blog is not attractive.

No attempt has been made by MKO to end Garladors expressions as they exist. To date, the only interruptions to these posts have come from Garladors decision to stop posting them (his prerogative, always), and the small group of users who have taken this opportunity to express opinions. No attempt has been made to censor these opinions, even though they are ultimately not conducive to conversation relevant to this particular forum.

At this juncture, I can only again ask that everyone pause, stop to consider the site beyond their own interests, and resume enjoying these posts (and others) in an orderly fashion. As has been suggested before, in the interest of a clean break and an adjustment to the new requirements, Garlador might like to make use of his most recent post, Kano, to direct a clearer course of conversation with everyone who is interested in this content.

As the content appears to be the most genuine focus of the topic, I would strongly urge everyone to support this content again, as soon as possible. The Kano thread is still active. It will continue to be active and, with any luck and a bit of time for everyone to calm down, come to contain new installments to energize that discussion again.

Remebering that this is a larger community available for everyone, those of you describing the interest to discuss characters should continue to pursue other topics and threads to do so. If there is genuine interest and merit, you certainly won't be chastized for continuing old discussions, or creating new ones. Just be considerate to the existing threads posted by your fellow users, and to the expected, cordial order of things.

You're welcome to invent a character based on me, and think of it what you like, but I ask that everyone keep this passion for what they enjoy and find ways to enjoy it directly. You hear from me very rarely -- many of you not at all, if there's no reason to. MKO is moving forward and I would appreciate it if you all do the same.

There's a lot of noise about respect. Let's try to actually remember what that entails and exhibit it. The only people preventing this topic from continuing are the people who aren't talking about MK.