You misunderstand me. I know why Kitana was the one to inform the group of Dark Kahn's identity. I call into question why the story was structured to present her as a twice-beaten/captive/marionette in the first place.



I'm not trying to push intentions onto the MK Team. In the end, we have no idea what drives them to portray certain characters in differing lights. However, there's a clearly skewed gender ratio that favors the males. I don't have a problem with that--males will generally play violent fighting games and will generally pick a male over a female combatant. But when the gender balance is skewed that much, it becomes painful to watch just one female become the stereotypical captive--and yes, eroticized (the ESRB did not warn against giant boobies for nothing)--princess. This is balanced somewhat by the presence of Sonya and Wonder Woman, but again, with only four females featured in the game, must fifty percent of them be unplayable and be knocked around for a good chunk of the story?

I've seen what happens when Sonya's shirt takes battle damage. I bet the ESRB didn't even notice the other females' chests after that.
Seriously though, saying a female character's body proportions have been exaggerated is one thing. I'm not going to argue that, all video games do it.
Saying that holding a character in an armlock is putting them in a "writhing, eroticized" position though? I'm sorry, but that's a little absurd. As the saying goes, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." There's nothing going on in that scene more than a character who has lost their mind being restrained so a spell can be cast that will calm them down. Gender is irrelevant to that particular scenario.

This is getting ridiculous.

I think Warriorprincess and RazorsEdge701 are the best ones who have taken an entirely objective opinion on Kitana. Some others have good opinions, but others are just being extremists, asking for stuff Kitana didn’t even have to begin with.

Warriorprincess asks for what she thinks Kitana deserves in a very balanced way, but others are just preaching about how Kitana should be some form of Top-mega-main-head-Flagship female of Mk, which she has never even been, and blaming the Mk team for not giving her this status when its been some of the fans who chose to view her like that. Kitana is one of the main heroes, she is an important heroine, and she should be treated with resptec. I agree with all of that.

Regarding the whole Sindel thing:

I totally and 100% agree with QueenSindel(TheBitch) and Keith. That wicked witch-bitch has more potential then what some people give her credit for.

Enough said.

Regarding having sex in MK

Lets just hope that crap never happens in the games. It’s not needed, at all (unless some character gets raped or married, pregnant, and then some interesting twist happens).

Regarding the Johnny Cage and Reptile recognizable thing

I don’t know about Reptile, but Cage is more recognizable then Kitana. I guess this is a debate that doesn’t even matter now though.



I think Sareena has a lot of potential, but I also think she is waaaay too overrated by some of her fans. The exact same thing that happened with their Kitana-disappointment will happen to them with Sareena if they keep glorying her so much. She is cool, but assumptions are not facts people (not directed at you specifically Razor, just in general).

LOL on the Sindel comments. Seriously, the sexy goth like witch is fuc*ing gorgeous. Beauty is subjective man, and remember that just because you don’t like her, it doesn’t mean everyone else is wrong.

And I 100% disagree with you on MKA Johnny Cage. If you go as far as saying he “stole Fujin’s job”, then it’s kind of obvious you are implying that you don’t care how much they work on him, because you still won’t care. His role in MKA is no doubt one of the best and it was extremely well built and it was a scream of hope for his fans. They finally heard the fans and gave him the role he deserved. If you can’t value the huge improvement they gave him in regards to storyline, then I’m lead to believe you have something against Cage. But, I could be wrong.



Not at all.

How can it be closed when there are tons of possibilities open for improvement for any character? All you need is creativity, imagination and a solid writing technique to open the doors to her character. ANY character can be “useful” as long as some thought is put into them.

Imagine, for example, how useful and awesome she would be if they killed Kitana and made Mileena princess of Edenia and exiled Sindel. There is a lot of potential in just that little idea, and a lot more interesting possibilities then what some people give Sindel credit for.



Agreed. Like I said above:

I think Sareena has a lot of potential, but I also think she is waaaay too overrated by some of her fans. The exact same thing that happened with their Kitana-disappointment will happen to them with Sareena if they keep glorying her so much. She is cool, but assumptions are not facts people (not directed at you specifically Razor, just in general).



Kitana pretty much reminds most people of the sort of important female character that is placed there just for some things to happen, as some form of water force that drives and moves certain things, but the main/lead goal goes to the active female who actually does the job right and is given a lot more light.



Yes.

I think it’s in the Krypt or in one of the trading card vids. Jade was chosen over Kitana.



You know, for all you write, it only really seems like you are just very angry that Kitana hasn’t been given any Flagship main heroine role. You say in some posts how you don’t ask or care about her being the main leading female, and how you only ask for a decent treatment, but then you go on and complain about how she is and should be treated as the main girl of the games.



That’s fair.



?

Just because Kitana escaped persecution, which is something most characters have done anyways, doesn’t glorify her presence in the games or diminishes others in any way. I give her credit for the strong decisions she had to make though, that was awesome

But what in the world is so good about her MKG role? Isn’t that supposed to be one of the roles most of her fans who view her as some fearsome warrior hate with passion?

MKG, MKDA, MKUnchained, MKSM, MKvsDC, MKA...her roles in all of those are pretty much hated by you guys.

Also, you are, again, giving her a lot more depth then there really is with your MK3 analysis. Wasn’t she not even in the game to begin with? And weren’t the two other females more prominent, playable and advertised then Kitana was? But don't take me wrong, she played a fantastic AND important AND awesome role. No one is denying that.



I see you always give her credit for this, which she deserves to some extent. The only reason she and Kung Lao face Tsung and Chi is because both of them are linked closer to Liu Kang then anyone else in the games. And this answers the very question you asked, you see more to it, but apparently, by the way she has been treated since Mk4, there isn’t much more.

Also, by the end of Mk3 (Liu Kang’s ending), you can already tell what was the main idea they had for Kitana.



But, what about her other fans who disagree with you?

To begin with, Kitana was never established as MK’s flagship female, in any form, even Mileena had more of that then Kitana ever did with just MKD, and just because you don’t think she is worth to have if she is not “the main leading female”, it doesn’t mean everyone else feels the same way. So far, everyone can agree that she doesn’t have to be a damsel in distress all the time, and that she can get back to her more dangerous MK2 feeling, but its only you who seem to have a serious problem about her not being the main girl.

I don’t think is fair to ask for her character to be scrapped just because she is not the main heroine. I agree with you on the better treatment comments, but not with this. You keep placing her at the throne of the Mk world, even if you say you don’t.



I honestly don’t have nor want to scream, because after more then 4 installments, evidence clearly doesn’t support Kitana.

Advertizing, pictures, promotion, game appearances, character names on the back of the box of the games, character names written in reviews, articles or news, box art covers, toys, comics, movies, card games, special official game cards, MkA bios, game events, etc., etc. etc., too much to go on.



That’s a convenient assumption man.

The exact same thing could be said about ANY character in the game.



Well, why not Kitana?

Why would it had been OK if it had been Catwoman or Wonderwoman?

The way I see it, the leading females WM and Sonya got the better treatment. And even Catwoman, who isn’t a lead, got a huge amount of excellent promotion and treatment (even more the WM)

There is a lot of feminist values established in the game with characters like Sonya AND even some with the whole Wonderwoman all-female leaders kingdom thing.



I’ve actually loved reading your posts so far. You have some good valid points and cool opinions. It’s also cool you touch on the subject of feminism, but I have to go with RazorsEdge on this one, I think you are being a “little bit too extreme”.



This is exactly what I explained above.



Agreed as well.

I don’t think it’s a horrible role for *her* character considering how she has been since MK3’s Liu Kang’s ending, but it is a role I’m no fan of...at all.



Like I said above: Kitana pretty much reminds most people of the sort of important female character that is placed there just for some things to happen, as some form of water force that drives and moves certain things, but the main/lead goal goes to the active female who actually does the job right and is given a lot more light.

She wasn’t even in MK3 to begin with, or advertized as much as the other two females were during that game or MKU/T.



That’s exactly what I get from some posts.



And don’t forget the constant advertizing Sonya gets as the chosen main female Flagship who always represents the game. This didn’t happen in MKD of course, but I’m glad it didn’t, because Mileena deserved her chance.



Like I disagreed with Xia, I disagree with you Leo.

Not all of her fans read into her as much as others have. Sure everyone is displeased with her treatment in the recent games, but not all hate her as much as her biggest fans do because not all of them took their assumptions as facts, so its not fair.



Cut the crap? And what exactly is that crap? Maybe there is a reason why Kitana is the one who is always cutted, because from all we've seen in MkvsDC, even Kano and jax, two characters who some fans didn't expect to see in the game, played a MUCH better and cooler role then Kitana did.

Why on Earth would every damn idiot in the MK universe ressurect someone?
Doubtful she would have any doppelganger, being dead by suicide right after Kahn took over the realm and forced them into adoptative regency. Sindel at least.

Jerrod serves no purpose aside being a catalyst. Nothing more. Everything else is just an attempt to widen the roster without aim and logical purpose.

Normally I think Chrome is a troll, but in this instance, I kind of agree. It's just that the end result of your idea, having Jerrod alive again, is not appealing. Jerrod's not an interesting character and the game's storyline is better with him kept as a figment of the past, not a present day factor, just like, say, The Great Kung Lao.
A good rule of thumb is whenever you have an idea that involves resurrecting the dead, that idea is bad and the fanbase won't like it.

I like your idea, WarriorPrincess, but personally I'd rather Sindel on a physical quest; one to destroy Shao Kahn once and for all. Sindel is probably the closest any character has ever came to Shao Kahn, as his queen so she would probably know more about him than anyone, and more importantly, his weaknesses. Shao Kahn ruined Sindel's life, tore her family apart and destroyed her home realm, if anyone has the right to do away with Kahn for good, it's her. Also, with Kahn gone, not only would Edenia finally enjoy peace, but the majority of the realms too, including Earth and Outworld.

(I'm re-posting this in here since the team closed my thread)
Most people (who arent kitana fans) responded to XD's post by stating that the way Kitana turned out is the way she is supposed to be. Though frustating...I believe we should remember her character in the MK Komics - though they weren't exactly a part of the in-game (verbatim story) they were highly inspired by MK 1 & 2. Her character was always one who stood up to anyone..not backing down from any fight and pulling off some sweet moves while she did it. (Lets not forget) during this time she was a good guy putting together an alliance to defeat Kahn and his minnions. She even confronted Raiden insighting that she should lead a team against shang tsung . Man...she was awesome!!!...somehow instead of using this to inspire further updates of her in the game...they used MK annihilation as their work station for how she would be defined. She was a weak damsel and hid behind Lui Kang at times of Kombat (this angered me so much- because she was slighly more cold and mysterious in the first film and she even fought better- though still undeveloped). A kitana/mileena in annihilation fight would've been awesome but it also was impossible since the stunt double for (Talisa Soto) Kitana played the role of Mileena(Dana Hee). So they locked Kitana up for half the film (stupid!!!) - I liked her in Konquest as well (but it's not the game). Whoever wrote for Kitana's role in annihilation should ask for forgiveness because the team seemed to use this as the new drawing board for Kitana and sent her on a downward spiral ever since. I could say even as early as UMK3 since her story seemed to make her depenant on other characters(not to mention her gameplay had also taken a severe decline from her ultimate dominace in MK2) instead of the independence that made her so popular in mk2(where she defeated Kahn herself to re-take her parents kastle and begin real-restoration...now thats what I call a story .

In mk DA she was also known to defeat the DA (with the help of earths warriors) why not enaging in single kombat with Quan Chi and beating him...shame..she was taken out of MKD - Mileena was given her outfit...(the COOLEST outfit in mkfemale history to date) and she was swapped for Jade..I like Jade but it would have been cool to have them both...anyway..let's move to MK shaolin monks - which is supposed to refer to MK2 {where she was dominant}...SHE LOOKED PATHETIC and could barely hold her own(a far cry from her Komic character)...and whatever happened to her killing her clone (as was stated in UMK3, duhhh!!!) The MK team did an awesome job in portraying the fighting skills of Jade and Mileena (they both rocked - especially Mileena) but Kitana looked as if she still needed training on the battlefield (guess what - they even came to rescue her again.. she was even a damsel for 2 female assassins - pathetic!!!...She couldn't even beat Mileena..what's that about???...Don't know enough about her MKA appearance but her presense in the opening movie was breif but pretty cool..that was the first good thing the team did for her in a long time.

I haven't played this game but after looking at XD's post..what I believed would happen as soon as she was announced as an iconic character was confirmed. I would've been more suprised had they actually done right by her. I sure would love to see her with awesome moves - outfits similar to those of the Jax007 Koncept arts - and a story that shows she aint afraid of no one and will fight to the death anyone who gets in the way of her defending(KEY-WORD defending) her realm. It would be nice to also drop Lui Kang as a love interest and be more of a partner in the will of good.

I surely hope someone at Midway reads XD's letter and consider's the missery of Kitana fans and even some non Kitana fans. She's a warrior with skills spanning over centuries. It's high time that she start being portrayed for who she truly is instead of some off-shoot inspired by MK 4 end scenes and tthe Annihilation movie. I'm sure there are some who disagree but a whole lot of others who do agree.

Hey maybe during the creation of MK8 someone with some pull at midway will pick up a classic Komic and allow that to inspire they're update (not continual downgrade) of Kitana. I normally NEVER type a post which is this long but after playing MK since the early 90's and watching my favorite female character in MK franchise severly decline...I had to say(write) something.

Hope everyone has a happy thansgiving

Well, true. I personally think Kitana is a worthwhile character, even when she's not elevated. She has a past all MK fans know and fondly remember, her gameplay style is still unique thanks to the fans and, regardless of how much attention the MK Team gives her, it's good to see her included in the games. I may not be as big a fan as WarriorPrincess and others who've posted in this thread, but that doesn't mean I dislike Kitana, and she's far from the bottom of my list. So yeah, I don't want her to be discarded, even if it means the MK Team still won't do much with her.



I guess one of the factors in a situation like this is the storyline at hand. I mean, in MKDA, Kitana wasn't at all portrayed as vulnerable or sensitive: she actually got into it with the other active characters, fought with them all, and had a big fight toward the end. It's possible that the MK Team opts to put Kitana under the "damsel in distress"-ish light whenever the storyline calls for it, even if remotely. They go directly to her, perhaps because of her "princess" status (or nickname, as it seems to be sticking).

I think that, if she returns in MK9, she will be portrayed in a way that will resemble MKDA more than MKDC or 4. I think the next canon MK game will have a darker storyline (since it's the style they're going for) and, most likely, there will be no place for vulnerable characters, only active warriors. I mean, if they were strong enough to survive Armageddon, there's no reason for any of them to be taken down easily. So there's hope, especially for fans like WarriorPrincess who aren't asking for much and can be pleased much more easily than a few others.

As for the Sindel thing, I honestly like her and think she has solid potential. She's a character with a unique look that stands out from the others (like Mileena is for her mouth, Sonya for her hair lol, or Reptile and Baraka for their... everything). She should stick around, if not for her compelling personality or storyline potential, than for the intrigue her physical traits cause. It's like Mileena: even if her storyline in future games leaves much to be desired, I and many other people will just be glad to have her around thanks to the undeniable uniqueness.

This thread is overwhelming, but I noticed something about ideas for Sindel. I'm rather fond of the idea that she's actually mortal now, and therefore could focus on spending her last human years grooming Kitana. We don't need Sindel and it's a way to at least discard her while also shifting the Edenian focus (and importance) exclusively to Kitana.

Something that could probably be done for a lot of characters, lest we forget Kung Lao (and any others).

I think I saw someone mention something similar to my sentiments, which would be to move on. Let the old heroes and villains become the legends of a new generation. Characters with immense power and meaning within the fiction whose appearances should be significant.

Hurm....let me just take un momento to spell out my desire for Kitana.

Option A:
Best case scenario; at most; at best; Christmas come early; the MK team to take full advantage of what Kitana is and has to offer and push her to fookin' moon. 'Cause I have this crazy thing about believing a franchise should emphasize it's stronger creations as their "faces."

...or...

Least case scenario; at the least; bottom of the barrel but acceptable; keep her an independent, competent protagonist and give her balls back...for lack of better phrasing.


If they are unable or unwilling to do that....if the only wish to keep her around as the designated "princess" of the Superfriends...then I hope for Option B:
Kill her off and move on.


I'm not saying Kitana must remain/be the main heroine...I only brought that point to illustrate that Kitana is/was a major character in the series and therefore, should be given some higher regard. See Leo, if you don't want to interpret Kitana's role in MK2, MK3, and MK:DA and evidence she's the "main heroine" that's you're prerogative...but the fact remains is that those games presented Kitana, at the very least, a major protagonist of the story. I don't buy Sonya as the main heroine at all, but she remains a major protagonist with a stake in the story.

My problem...as far as her role goes....is now she's being emphasized as part of the Superfriends...which makes her more a supporting character than protagonist...and worse, defined by her lame relationship to Liu Kang. That's an issue of role. As issue of portrayal is a different, though somewhat related matter.

See, I don't see it as Kitana went "soft" immediately in MK4. I don't agree with that. I don't see it as a simple black & white switch from the cool bad ass Kitana of the MK2/MK3 era to the worthless loser of Shaolin Monks/MK vs. DC. In MK4 she simply entered a new phase of her storyline. MK2-MK4 was one phase, or arc rather, that showed her as this reformed assassin rebelling as Shao Kahn. Then with MK4-Armageddon, we had a new arc, showing Kitana as this princess and leader of Edenia.

The "princess" era was admittedly not as fun as the "rebel" era, but I myself had no particular gripe. Like I've said, it's a good thing that Kitana's evolved and changed with the story. It's a good thing when characters don't remain static. HOWEVER, the "princess" era has run it's course. She needs to evolve again or retire/die. Worse than her story merely getting redundant, it's now actually starting to be damaging to her character.

Which brings me of course to MK vs. DC. Again, I have no real complaint about Kitana's character in MK4 or MK:DA. Maybe not as "bad ass" as she was in MK2 or MK3, but still Kitana. Then comes Shaolin Monks which fucked her six ways 'til Sunday. Now okay, one could simply write that off as just this stupid bullshit side game. No big deal. We didn't get anything in Armageddon...so no one can say whether her stock rose or fell. Now comes MK vs. DC.....and it's going too far. They've gone too far with the "princess" thing. Kitana's just pathetic in this game.

It's not just a matter of "Oh she got beat up a few times" because everyone got beat up. But what other character got their mind taken away from them and was subsequently led about like a dog on a leash? How can anyone not see that as degrading to ANY character? Maybe this wouldn't have been AS bad, had Kitana been granted her own story chapter and allowed to get some victories of her own. Would've made sense...since DC's side had eight chapters with MK only having seven. But no, she was shuffled aside for whatever reason.

And again, it's not just story and character. Kitana's sunk so low in gameplay, that she needs to steal Mileena's ground roll. I know some people will say it's just a roll and make excuses about how it makes sense for them to have similar moves because they both served Kahn blah, blah, blah. No. It's embarrassing. The ground roll is Mileena's move. It always has been Mileena's move. And whether Mileena comes back in future games or not, it will always be considered her move. If another character has it, he/she will be pointed out as having Mileena's move.

And also design...now this is a tricky thing. They really didn't any more or less to with Kitana than they did with the other characters. They took essentially her most "iconic" look and added details. But maybe...since Kitana's design has pretty much never changed...that's the problem. Maybe, like they did with Jax, they should've considered putting in a little more thought so Kitana wouldn't be wearing the same bloody thing she's always been wearing?

Plus lackluster fatalities....it's not one thing, it's everything. Kitana didn't just suddenly overnight get buried, it accumulated over time. Her role hasn't been all that interesting. Her character portrayal has been pathetic. Her gameplay mediocre. He design outdated and tired. And her fatalities lame. This didn't just suddenly happen...it gathered and MK vs. DC...for me at least...is the stop sign.
She needs a serious overhaul or they need to ditch her.

Ideally, if they did her right, I see no reason why she should be one of the faces of Mortal Kombat. But that's not nearly as important to me as some may assume. It would be a nice feather in her cap, and perhaps offer a guarantee that they'll put legitimate effort into her...but it's by no means a dealbreaker for me.
Let me just say this....and this is just me, my own personal thought on the matter; I'm not speaking for anyone save meself...the day I accept Sonya Blade as a face of Mortal Kombat is the day I stop being a Mortal Kombat fan once and for all. Sub-Zero and Raiden are cool. Scorpion's far from perfect, but he's acceptable. I think Kitana should be one. I believe Mileena can be, given time and the right push, and I wouldn't mind if she was.

But Liu Kang, Johnny Cage, and Sonya Blade..? As the faces of Mortal Kombat?? That's a Mortal Kombat I want nothing to do with.
That's just me though.


A word on Sindel, as she's been mentioned, I'm of the camp that the lose her. I would like to see a more streamlined story in the future and Sindel...the whole fucking realm of Edenia for that matter...is excess baggage. She served her purpose in MK3 and sure she can continue, but she doesn't really need to. I've no further use for Edenia and I think they should burn the pain in the ass realm to the ground. Far as goth chicks go, I'm more than happy with Sareena.

But actually, I think I want Edenia gone more than I would want Sindel or Jade gone. The realm is redundant and more and more it's becoming a game of musical chairs of who has the throne. Sindel's the queen....but Kitana practically runs things, so she should be the queen....but Mileena's usurping her identity and wants the throne....maybe Jade should take the throne and run things...but Rain and Tanya want the throne.....WHO FUCKING CARES ANYMORE? And seriously, all Edenia is is the other, prettier Earth. The Earth we have is fine.

Honestly, nuking Edenia would be the best thing to happen to, not just Kitana, but Sindel and the others involved. I mean, let's just say...hypothetically...they did something similar to the scenario I suggested with Kitana where Edenia's destroyed and she abandons the realm & renounces her title. Could cause interesting friction between her and Sindel, who'd be upset her daughter's abandoned her home and people. It's a start...but they should make the story about the characters again and not who's taking care of the realm.

That's fair, since its your opinion, but it still doesn't change the obvious. You should had loooong ago given up on MK by your statement.

But, apparently, you still like MK enough to continue to be in denial, and that's your choice as well.

Too bad your happiness for the game depends on just a character instead of the overall beauty it holds and presents.

Not necessarily. Until MK vs. DC, Sonya's only ever been presented as just another character. She was never plastered about the extent Scorpion, Sub-Zero, or Mileena/Baraka in Deception.



Two characters, actually.
And that's the MK team's fault. Not mine.

The Mileena/Baraka Deception publicity was a drop in the pond, equivalent to putting Johnny on the side of the MK1 arcade cabinet. None of them are main characters. Especially in light of how the team spent every single interview for Deception telling us Shujinko is the new hero, only for him to become irrelevant one game later.

Meh. I guess that's the price I pay for a hyper active liberal arts education. I see 'problematic' things everywhere! ^.^ Yet I'm entitled to my thought, and I don't think it's as absurd as you may think. Kitana is already presented as the foreign princess, or the exotic/eroticized Other, and she must subsequently be tamed (by Scorpion and WW) and then put on a leash (by Quan Chi). It's more than a tad degrading. And yes--you could argue that it absolutely had to be Kitana in this scenario and no one else, but I believe gender does play a huge (if subconscious) role in casting choices. I'm just pointing out something we, as viewers, should probably be sensitive to, and by no means am I calling out the MK Team for being sexist or anything. I know none of them personally. :)

As for the issue of flagship characters, I don't mind which ones occupy the top slots. Frequently, those who do claim hold to the title of "the face of such and such fandom" become disliked for their ubiquitous (and unintentionally annoying) presence. And yep, I still agree with most everything XD says.

Just a tad deviation: for me to fully embrace Sonya as the primary female protagonist of Mortal Kombat, I'd like to see her have motives/intentions entirely of her own. I almost feel like she's too tied up in the "chain of command" lifestyle of the military. It sort of limits her potential to be rather complex, though a top-ranking kick ass female in the military is, by nature, interesting enough. ^.^

With all due respect, XD, 90% of your post was you reiterating what you've already stated before (your wishes for Kitana) only in more detail and a different choice of words. Perfectly fine, but no reason for me to reply to it since I've already commented on WarriorPrincess's similar post and agreed to almost everything thereby stated.

So I'll go ahead and respond only to what calls for it, which are the parts of the post directed at me/my previous posts.



I consider myself a very good analyst of any aspect (general, big, small, unimportant) of a good story, and I'm not just pulling this out of nowhere; I've noticed this about myself long ago when I first realized how easily intrigued I become by worthwhile creativity, and many people and friends on this site have also seen work/posts from me and would agree with me. I don't make up things or yearn for convenience during any discussion. What I'm trying to do with this babbling is emphasize the fact that I'm not "taking the easy road" during THIS particular discussion just because it favors me, my choices, my taste, w/e. I just feel like I have to say this because your choice of words (such as "your prerogative" versus "the fact that remains") makes me feel like you think otherwise. Anyway...

I think the fact in what you're saying is that MK2/3 represented Kitana as a major protagonist. But obviously, an installment represents that particular installment, not the whole chain of them. It's common sense. Of course Kitana was vital in MK2 and 3! But again:



THAT'S why. They weren't trying to "hint" at anything or give anybody a "signal".

Remember this?



I'd like to weigh the basis behind your assumption against the basis behind mine. Hopefully this will shed a sharper light on what I've been trying to show you all along.

The basis behind your assumption that she is and was always meant to be the lead heroine is, by your words, "the important role they gave her in UMK3".

The basis behind my assumption that you're reading too much into things with little meaning is that Kitana's portrayal in the franchise has diminished from MK3 onward, steadily and continuously. I say to you: if the MK Team always meant for Kitana to be this huge lead you see her as, they sure have a funny way of showing it. Your basis is composed of one installment, while my basis is composed of about six or seven. Common sense states that my basis should hold a lot more credibility than you give it. Kitana's impressive introduction and what it represents pales in comparison to Kitana's portrayal in almost a dozen installments of the franchise and what THAT represents.

I expect you might still respond to me in a similar way as you just did. "It's your prerogative to interpret things as you wish", and "I don't buy it". I'm not gonna give you a hard time if you stick with this frame of mind, because keeping it is YOUR prerogative, obviously. But I thought it was worth another try to try and make clearer the evidence I've been showing you to support my words.

I've already shown why the "evidence" you drew from MKDA is invalid with a solid truth made so true because of how often it is used (the Liu Kang's death thing), so I don't need to repeat all that again. Still, trying to sound as polite as I possibly can, I really think you didn't read my last post in its entirety, or at least disregarded a lot of it. I just feel like you turned your back on almost all of what I said and tried to put it all into an early grave with the above quote.

Once more, if you wanna just lay this discussion to rest here and now, that's perfectly okay, I'm not gonna force it. But I WOULD like to ask, if this is the case, that you please refrain from insisting upon it, and that if you do opt to lengthen it, that you address everything I've said here and in my last post as well, because everything I said is more than valid and shouldn't be disregarded in favor of a "it's your choice to think like that" argument. Again, with all due respect.



This is something else I'm still confused about. You clearly show distaste for this "princess arc", or I should say, growing distaste because of its incessant presence, yet, at the same time, you seem to draw these humongous conclusions about Kitana's character and what she is or is supposed to be out of this very arc you're clearly not a fan of. It all just rings contradiction to me, even if slight.



I forgot to talk about this in my last huge post, but you bringing it up reminds me. You're saying here that Kitana's suffered a steady fall during this princess story arc not only in terms of storyline, role, and portrayal, but also in terms of moves and looks. This is just further hurting your assumptions, IMHO. If the Mk Team has always meant for Kitana to be so vital as you wish her to be, why are they not putting effort into her character? Why have they allowed her to suffer this steady fall? So again, if they always meant for her to be the main heroine, they sure have a funny way of showing it.

Oh, yeah, this reminds me of yet another thing, something queve says that is very true, and that's the MK Team's marketing strategy. You can't deny that Kitana was never used an awful lot for marketing, in all its forms. Again, if the MK Team always meant for her to be the main heroine, they sure have a funny way of showing it. Hell, add gameplay to the list, too.

And since we're STILL on the subject, I think you should seriously give more credit to the the MK Team's choice when they announced the characters for MKDC. Sub-Zero and Scorpion were the first announced for obvious reason. So there's no reason why Sonya being the very next one should be a meaningless coincidence.



If Kitana being 'main heroine' isn't that important to you, then YOU have a funny way of showing it. I know I sound like an ahole saying it, but let's be real here, XD. We (and we includes you, of course) have spent way too much time discussing this for it to be of no importance. I know it's of no importance to WarriorPrincess, for example, because she touched the subject and ended it without so much as a second statement to follow up the statement of "this doesn't matter to me". And there's no reason for you to not want this to be an important issue to you, so slow your horses! lol

Well, I do have a glimpse of hope that you're actually open-minded enough to accept the barrage of facts and solid statements I've been throwing your way, even though it goes against that which you would prefer. After your last post, that hopeful glimpse faded almost to black, though, which is, at the very least, disappointing, as I really enjoy having discussions where the other person is receptive to proof that would be otherwise unwelcome.

Well, this last quote of yours pretty much shows me that you have something more personal than I anticipated motivating you. I caught onto this before, but now it's staring me right in the face: XD, you really have a huge vendetta against Sonya, man! You accept all the other protagonists and are quick to compliment the crap out of them, but you make it a priority to unceasingly claw away at Sonya's image in hopes of deteriorating its merit. lol, it's a little funny, but mostly another disappointment for me, for the reasons stated above.

Having said this, I'll now leave the realm of facts, evidences, and proof, and finally state something that is my opinion. My opinion, based on what I've gathered after all this time, is that Kitana being the main heroine something so important to you that it almost inadvertently motivates you to embrace really out-there, huge assumptions with feeble basis AND to, as I said, claw away at the image that represents the target of your profound and very, very consequential dislike. I mean, you don't see me ripping Kitana apart, I actually go as far as to admit that I was a big fan and still see qualities in her character, AND I go as far as to say I wish for her to stick around no matter what. Like I said, my opinion, but just the way you speak, your choice of words, they lead me to draw that conclusion, and with good reason, I don't think you can disagree with me there. Furthermore, I think Johnny is thrown into your hate pool as a necessary casualty and Liu Kang as another consequential dislike, though not as intense. And I think this is the whole reason for this last quote of yours, so I'll end my reply to it here, as I don't have the power to nor the right to stupidly enough try and dissuade you from hating a character, no matter how frivolous the reasoning.



Until MKDC Sonya's only been presented as just another character?



Of course she was never plastered about to the extent Scorpion and Sub-Zero have! This is a fighting game, buddy, I don't think some curvaceous blond is the symbol non-hardcore fans expect to see! They want muscle-bound, supernatural men with cool powers. Trying to use this as a basis for yet another assumption is... a waste of time, I think is the best way to describe it. Aaaand, it goes back to what queve said earlier. Sonya is actually very marketed, about as marketed as the representative of the females of a franchise shoudl be.

And, come on, XD, what's with the "Baraka and Mileena in Deception" thing? That was one game out of, what, more than 10 installments, and they DROVE the storyline of that game. Has Baraka and Mileena ever been THAT marketed in another game? Uuum, no they haven't. Have they been marketed as strongly as Sonya? Uuuummmm, we all know where this is going.

To conclude my post, I feel this is necessary:



And this isn't me trying to be rude or picky, this is me making a request so I can avoid making repetitive posts.

Wow. This thread is amazing. I find it hilarious that people could be so personally offended over the portrayal of a shallow fantasy character ...in a fighting game. This is worse than slash fanfic. As an aside, meanwhile this forum has next to no discussion about how this Mortal Kombat game plays so I wind up going to shoryuken.com to learn about it. rofl. Something is seriously wrong with this picture. Not that I'm blaming any of you in particular. But this is a serious statement about this fanbase.

Also, it's interesting to me how this almost always only occurs with Kitana, Sonya, and Mileena - the characters most played by Mortal Kombat's female and gay fanbase - and you never see Jax or Johnny Cage fans pulling this shit. Hm.

in b4 "if you don't agree with me then you are not allowed to post in this thread"

Let's break it down, shall we? =D

"I find it hilarious that people could be so personally offended over the portrayal of a shallow fantasy character ...in a fighting game."

Thank you for contributing nothing to the discussion. Here's a troll-cookie and a pat on the head for your unintentional hilarity.

"This is worse than slash fanfic."

How do you compare character analysis and close readings to writing about same-sex pairings? Wait, don't answer that. I'm sure I don't want to know.

"As an aside, meanwhile this forum has next to no discussion about how this Mortal Kombat game plays so I wind up going to shoryuken.com to learn about it. rofl. Something is seriously wrong with this picture. Not that I'm blaming any of you in particular. But this is seriously saying something about this fanbase."

Ouch, you got us. We're guilty of having an intellectual investment in the games we play. Shame on us. Also, feel free to ignore the score of topics on gameplay on the first page of the forum: "A way to beat Dark Kahn," "possible Baraka infinite," "Biggest combos?" Your cursory glances of the forum will assist you in constructing the best mockery of our discussion.

"Also, it's interesting to me how this almost always only occurs with Kitana, Sonya, and Mileena - the characters most played by Mortal Kombat's female and gay fanbase - and you never see Jax or Johnny Cage fans pulling this shit. Hm."

Hm, indeed. Perhaps only women and "gays" are capable of intellectual discussion?--I'm sorry, that's "pulling this shit" in your vernacular. Nevermind the fact that you know next to nothing about our respective genders nor have you investigated our sexual orientations. From what I've gleaned reading your, er, response, you dislike both character analysis, gays, and people who write about such topics. Congratulations! You're an idiot.

in b4 "ur gay lolz."

Wow. That was unnecessary.



Uh, I contributed my opinion on the topic. That's what people do on internet forums.

in after "if you don't agree with me then you are not allowed to post in this thread"

lol



I didn't compare them. I said one was worse.

Character analysis and close readings of a shallow hackneyed fantasy character in a poorly written plot of a videogame genre notable for it's terrible plots, which are never intended to be closely read into to begin with by virtue of the fact that developers place little to no importance on them, is ridiculous and delusionary. I'd bet my house that if you asked around almost any other competitive fighting game community that sentiment would be met with a resounding "agreed."



Possibly five topics out of about fourty? That's "a score of topics"? Haha. That would be a score of topics if this was a Final Fantasy forum, maybe.



What intellectual discussion, Dr I'm Too Intelligent to Ever Use Colloquialisms? This is partially just a bunch of fanboys arguing about unimportant inane garbage that the developer of a third tier fighting game doesn't care about, and partial fanfic. There's nothing remotely intellectual about it. Feel free to do it by all means, but it's laughable to get upset if somebody else in the community for said competitive fighting game doesn't understand why you'd want to do that or what the point is.

I also know plenty about the respective genders and sexual orientations of the majority of the frequent posters in this topic from reading through the general forum. I wasn't aware I disliked gays though. My ex boyfriend will be shocked to hear of this considering how much I enjoyed sucking his cock.

Your information is bad and you should feel bad.

Regardless, if something is said towards me which is worthy of me replying, I will respond, otherwise that's the last word you'll hear from me in this thread.

I agree. I personally hold the six-or-so contributors to this thread personally responsible for the total lack of discussion about gameplay mechanics. Observing the characters and potential intricacys of a barely communicated story? Why would anyone want to do that when there's the thoroughly mystifying world of kicks, punches, and combinations of kicks AND punches to be explored!

So, damn you! Damn you people for not speaking at length about the repetition of button presses! Clearly this is more important than all that interrupting stuff like "concept" and "design" and "character development."

Pfffft! I didn't even need get to the wacky finisher animations! OMGPWND!

Oh, I'm not blaming anyone! I'm holding them responsible.
Plus, I'm just adding my opinion to a discussion on a public form. Yeesh!

Step off, cuz!
IN B4 COP-OUT!!!

Perhaps, Shibata, if no one here wants to talk about what you want to talk about, you should go back to Shoryuken.com and stay there. Or at the very least you could post only in gameplay threads and not be a troll to the people who do care about other things.

Just a thought. I mean, maybe posting where you're not wanted and don't fit in makes sense in your world, but it doesn't in the real one.

Leo, we can agree that her MK2/UMK3 was the high point of her story, but you're claiming she was never meant to reach that high again. But she did in MK:DA...and all you're saying is it's invalid because she was chosen for plot convenience. I'm saying what was meant or not meant is irrelevant, she reached a high again in MK:DA.
That's what I meant by "your prerogative." MK:DA happened and if you want to keep saying it doesn't count for some reason, fine. But it's still there.

But keep in mind, I never really ever said Kitana was the official, undisputed "main heroine" of Mortal Kombat. Unless I slipped at some point, all I've ever said was "if there was one" or "if we were to call one." Obviously, to give Kitana that title is not written in stone...as it is inconsistent.

But if not her, the only other contender is Sonya...who's only contribution to the main plot has been as one of Liu Kang's helper buddies. How does that make her any more significant than Johnny Cage, Jax, Kitana, Kung Lao, Nightwolf, or Stryker? By mere fact she happens to be a woman?

Kitana's importance has gone up and down, but when has Sonya's ever been as high?



Why does my opinion have to be black or white love or hate? I had no real problem with the "princess" arc, even though it was admittedly not as fun as her first one. And why would my liking or disliking the arc have any significance on Kitana's importance? Once again, she was given a very importanct function in MK:DA, played a relevant part in Deception...and well, we didn't get Armageddon. Coud it have been better...for my tastes...certainly. Was it horrible? I don't think so...but that's me. Has it been damaging to Kitana's character? A little...but if it keeps up, it will be. Shaolin Monks and MK vs. DC have been more damaging to her than MK:DA or Deception.



Exactly....hence, my letter.



True...and I think they should. If they finally gave her a revamped appearance, I think the image of Kitana is a striking and marketable one. Again, the point of my letter: Kitana's a good character; they should utilize her.



Maybe, but then I would have to question why they waited so long to announce Wonder Woman. We can debate Kitana & Sonya all we want, but Wonder Woman IS the number three of DC. Scorpion/Sub-Zero and Superman/Batman were the obvious first announcements, but if the goal was to follow it with the #3 icon or even the lead woman, Wonder Woman should've been announced next and not the Flash. And when we did get a DC woman, it was Catwoman.



Leo, my point was the MK team's intentions were irrelevant. I said this other times, and either you forgot or ignored it. I don't think they meant for Kitana to merely be some secondary character....nor do I think they meant for her to be the main heroine. They were just making up a story and the characters fell where they did.

Let's go back to your insistence that MK:DA doesn't count in proving Kitana's importance...because it was just convenient for her to fight Quan Chi (which by the way, wasn't the only thing she did in that story) because he helped kill Liu Kang, so of course she'd want to fight him. Well, isn't that the same as saying her importance in UMK3 doesn't count because it was convenient for her to deal with Sindel because that's her mother?

Intended or not intended, more often than not, Kitana fell into an important part of the story. Once again, it's not written in stone or 100% consistent, because the MK team didn't mean for it in either way.



I think it's more the common message board fear that if you don't get the last word in, everyone thinks you gave up.

Whether it's important or not, I feel the need to defend my point of view; as I'm sure you do. One of my reasons why Kitana deserved better treatment if they kept her around was that she's always been a prominent part of the story. You questioned her prominence and I defended that point....and here we are.

Don't act like you've thrown indisputable truth in my face. All due respect, if anything's bothering me about your posts, it's your insistence that you're speaking FACT about who/what Kitana or Sonya or whoever is. These are fictional characters in a story that in reality has no real structure save what we give it. As such, you've given me your point of view based on what you've seen and I reciprocate until we reach some kind of agreeable middle ground, lose interest, or degrade into a flame war and the thread gets locked....whichever comes first.

You insist MK:DA is invalid and that's fact. No, it isn't. My disagreeing with you is not a refusal of undeniable truth. Don't act like it is.



I do. But I've actually been showing restraint on any attack on Sonya. My little comments about giving up on Mortal Kombat altogether if she becomes considered a "face" of the series was just my personal opinion. I hope you didn't read that as some sort of intended evidence to support my cause. Obviously, Sonya's place in the series has no real bearing on Kitana's. Doesn't make me hate her any less.



Oh no....I most certainly do hate Liu Kang. I can only guess you'd say that because you haven't seen my unrestrained posts on him. Get me going, you will see venom.
And Johnny Cage, my hatred fluctuates. I may not hate him as much now, but that's because he didn't make it into MK vs. DC. You're certainly not going to see me complaining he didn't make it in....not that it matters anymore, I guess; since I didn't buy the game.

Thing that especially aggravates me about the idea of them being the faces of Mortal Kombat is....Liu Kang, Johnny Cage, & Sonya Blade as the center of MK is Mortal Kombat paying homage to Star Wars; with Liu as Luke Skywalker, Johnny Cage as Han Solo, and Sonya has Leia. That was fine and dandy for MK1, but beyond that, the series should embrace it's own identity. Liu, Cage, and Sonya are things of the past.



Yes. Except for maybe MK1 and until MK vs. DC, I don't recall seeing Sonya ever being presented as anything other than just another character. Sure she appeared on some ads here and there, but no more or less than any other character. I never saw her presented as some major figure.

Except for the movie and TV shows....which I hate and try to ignore.


Shibata:
Don't mistake long-winded rants for personal offense...or ones sexual orientation for that matter. This bullshit is just a hobby and not one that is as great a part of my life as one may assume from reading this nonsense. It is just a video game...and not a very good one, let's be honest...and these are just fictional characters.

But it's not just people who babble on about the storyline. I mean, how many times have you seen people come on this board proclaiming how they never want to play Mortal Kombat again and/or will never post on this board again as though it's a major life altering decision. Buy the game or don't. Post here or don't.

It's all just bullshit to pass the time. And if you want there to be more threads discussing the gameplay......start one. I'm not stopping you.