Discussing All Things Jade [Original thread title: What Race Is Jade?]
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
03/19/2014 03:58 PM EST
So... much... scrolling....

Oh look at that 200!
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
03/22/2014 10:28 AM EST
These quotations below are what his message originally was; anything that is missing was ninja-edited in afterwards and should be treated as such (redundant, unneeded). On the 'we' fixation; HP1 also posted the poll. Still, it's neither's, but Pollcode.com's.
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Sigh...
We both agree that our posts have gotten way too long, right?

Well blame yourself for that. This topic is about Jade; not the MK series, not the Transformers and not even about the many versions of Batman.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
And frankly, a lot of the things you've just said, I think sound kind of...frankly, insane. (particularly the bits about magic having no rules, and Jade's color changes being the result of a sun tan) And I can't really have a rational debate if the other person either doesn't sound like they're being rational, or isn't going to listen to my side and is so sure of their position that they can't be convinced of anything, what would be the point?

I didn't suggest that magic cannot have rules. I indicated that magic has no boundaries. Just because it is mindboggling to you, it is not insane. There is nothing insane in explaining average tan changes by sun tan.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
So I'm only going to shorten things by addressing the few points I think are most important to the argument, why it started and how it needs to end:
First of all...

Finally you came to your senses. This doesn't devalue my points though.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Zmoke Wrote:
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Zmoke Wrote:
The fact is just that Jade MK9 is the canon one.

I reject this notion entirely on multiple grounds:
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Zmoke Wrote:
With added awareness, do you still reject that Jade MK9 is the canon one in the present day?

I never rejected that she's canon.

You misunderstand what I was trying to say here, but in fairness, I could have worded it better.
What I mean is that I never said MK9 Jade ISN'T canon. I'm saying BOTH versions are "the canon one" because either they're the same character, in which case the old version is relevant to the new version, or they're from two different universes, in which case, each universe is their own separate canon and both are equally valid..

Are you really turning it on me? It is your fucking blunder as shown. To be fair, I disagree on your definition of canonity. Here's a very good example:
Mutant Joe is a character in the process of mutation for all his life, at one point being a fly and at another point being a cockroach. Mutant Joe is now in his fortys and he is a cockroach. However, he is mostly known for his age of thirty when he was a fly. So which one is the canon one? Both have been canon, but the canon says Joe in his older, present age can only be a cockroach. Interpret Mutant Joe (30s) as Jade MK:A and Mutant Joe (40s) as Jade MK9. And my point is that I can make a poll exclusively about Jade MK9 at will because to me that information suffices; however anyone is free to make a poll respectively about her other iterations.
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Secondly...
Zmoke Wrote:
Yeah like you could have posted a new thread (ring any bells?) and invite me there or whatever. This thread has taken long enough even without pulling the whole franchise into discussion only because it's related. The topic at hand is very simple, you are only trying to stir it extra complicated.

See, that's my whole problem right there.
YOU think this thread is about MK9 Jade only.
Do you see what forum it's in? It's not in the "Mortal Kombat (2011)" forum, it's in the "Mortal Kombat Series General" forum.
That's the place where threads about the SERIES AS A WHOLE AND ALL GAMES IN IT go.

All capitals is more of an indication of insanity than anything. Your learning curve in HTML usage is really petite. This forum is about the series. This topic isn't. This topic is about Jade (all versions), period. So even though this topic belongs to the forum in which you can discuss about the whole series, you cannot e.g. create a sub-topic about Kira here all of a sudden.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Do you see the topic creator's name? It doesn't say "Zmoke", does it?
Do you see ANYWHERE in the first post that refers to a specific game, like MK9?
NO, you don't. The exact text is "Jade started out black, but now she is just slightly tanned. What is the Kommunity's view on that?"
Which means we can, or even NEED TO talk about the games where she "started out black", not just the one or ones where she is "slightly tanned" (which is inaccurate, by the way. Clearly he was referring to the noncanon render and not her canon in-game model which is quite dark brown)

Well haven't we talked about all Jades to death now, for Heaven's sake? If you want to keep it short, narrow down the redundant rhetoric questions.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
And what page did you make your poll on? Was it the first page? Is your poll in the first post?
NOPE, you made your poll on page FIVE. There are FOUR AND A HALF pages of people talking about this subject before you decided to try and take over the direction of the discussion despite not being the topic creator or a moderator.
You CANNOT do that. You don't have the right. And that why I'm arguing with you. And all of the content of the argument is relevant to and connected to the subject of this thread and posts made in it, which is why it would be inappropriate to make a new thread for the argument.

The topic had become stagnant. Since you seem to forget, I'll repeat: the poll is better this way, because users have become (after many pages) more knowledgeable pre-voting. I don't break the rules here and secondly you cannot tell me what I can and cannot do. You don't have the right. I never intended that people could not talk about other Jades in this topic.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
and as a corollary:
Zmoke Wrote:
the poll doesn't rule Jade out from the other games.

Yes it does, this whole argument started because you specifically instructed me to talk only about the MK9 version because of your poll, as if I would actually do what you say for no good reason.

No, it doesn't. It does not take the other Jades into account, that is true, because it doesn't need to. But it doesn't deny the existence and canonity of the previous Jade. That's what I was essentially getting at with that.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Your poll is, frankly, irrelevant to the actual subject of this thread. Nobody asked you to make it and very few people have voted in. It really pisses me off that you essentially tried to take over the thread and control the direction of the discussion, the exact same thing I spent pages yelling at Riyakou for doing.

It is anything but irrelevant to the actual subject (Jade), your writings as of late about Batmans, Transformers and such are the irrelevant part. I'm not worried if it "pisses you off" for I'm mostly interested (what comes to this thread) in answering mwgrant0's question and concluding this in that regard. 1) If you think that it doesn't suffice, I would recommend to send PM and tell improvement tips; though you can tell them here too but 2) if you want to end this argument, PM might be a better alternative after all.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
I'm going to type this next line in all caps and bold, and I don't want you to interpret that as anger or shouting, I'm doing it so that it'll stick out more and you'll pay attention to it, because it's very important:
YOU DIDN'T MAKE THIS THREAD, SO YOU DON'T GET TO DECIDE WHICH JADE IT'S ABOUT.

I'm laughing my ass off again. I am free to create my own Jade poll in a Jade thread, while everyone is free to discuss about any Jade in this topic and I surely am not stopping you. The Jade MK9 poll is all right in itself.
The poll is legitimate, guaranteed. ✓
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Do you understand the problem now, and are you willing to settle it, or are you just going to be difficult and insist that none of that is true and prolong the argument? Because this has gone on too long. It NEEDS TO END.

There is no problem unless you make it. Truth is, the poll is alright and everything on my behalf is according to the community rules that I follow.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
03/31/2014 08:37 AM EST
I chose "Edenian-Mixed." In her MK9 render, she's definitely not fully caucasian or negroid. She also doesn't seem fully Asian to me either, but she does still look exotic. Edenia may have darker skinned races, so it's quite possible she is mixed. Since we really don't know for sure, I think that's the most logical of the choices available.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
03/31/2014 09:40 AM EST
The Poll Results Are In

All votes contained a bit of truth in them. For numerous reasons and most notably for the community's `collective ́ opinion, Jade in her current state is considered Edenian-Mixed i.e. Brown Edenian. In some views the Arabs are White and if she looks nearly like an Arab, 'Brown' seems reasonable. Thank you to everyone's input to the cause.
Are you down with Brown Edenian now?YesNo
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/01/2014 06:59 PM EST
Did you guys know that Jade was white in the Saturn version of MKII? Looks weird.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/01/2014 08:18 PM EST
coltess Wrote:
Did you guys know that Jade was white in the Saturn version of MKII? Looks weird.


Looks like they didn't color her fans bronze either.

Zmoke Wrote:
Edenian-Mixed i.e. Brown Edenian.


Here's my problem with the whole "I think she looks mixed" argument: If you're suggesting that only mixed races are "brown", then what color exactly do you think "negroid" people are? They come in a variety of shades of brown. Just look at Jax in MK9 compared to how dark he was in MKvsDCU.

MK9 Jax is very similar in color to Jade, in fact, and we know him to be full-on African-American.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/02/2014 09:28 AM EST
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Zmoke Wrote:
Edenian-Mixed i.e. Brown Edenian.

Here's my problem with the whole "I think she looks mixed" argument: If you're suggesting that only mixed races are "brown", then what color exactly do you think "negroid" people are? They come in a variety of shades of brown. Just look at Jax in MK9 compared to how dark he was in MKvsDCU.

MK9 Jax is very similar in color to Jade, in fact, and we know him to be full-on African-American.

It is useful to read this page. Negroids are traditionally Black, though e.g. Arabs can be considered Brown too and depending on the view, White. (For they share roots with Europeans.) I should emphasize that whereas Negroids are brown by their skin color, they're not in every case Brown by their racial classification. There are two matters, i.e. White people aren't really white for instance. However, the Arabs are – almost independent of the view – always Brown, hence you can't go wrong with "Brown" that way. It's also more defining for Jade than "Black" because the latter spans a wider variety of hues, yet still "Brown" includes various races so it's not too defining. All in all, it's good to get to indicate the race of Jade somehow.


I have always perceived Jax MK9 as half-Black half-White for 1) biraciality is common in USA, 2) now these guys got a fine representative, 3) it would leave Darrius as the full-on Negroid while Cyrax is a Capoid 4) and lastly as well as most importantly, Jax MK9's skin tone resembles that of one.
coltess Wrote:
Did you guys know that Jade was white in the Saturn version of MKII? Looks weird.
It does, curious. Maybe the makers were on the fence about her skin tone.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/02/2014 10:11 AM EST
fuzzdork Wrote:
I chose "Edenian-Mixed." In her MK9 render, she's definitely not fully caucasian or negroid. She also doesn't seem fully Asian to me either, but she does still look exotic. Edenia may have darker skinned races, so it's quite possible she is mixed. Since we really don't know for sure, I think that's the most logical of the choices available.


I chose Mixed at first too, but then I started to look into it more, and now think she's Black (like Jamaican etc.) I used to think she was like Indian but till I posted my tanning pics and then someone posting her in-game pics, I thought no she couldn't be Brown, she's actually a lot darker.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/02/2014 01:10 PM EST
Zmoke Wrote:
I should emphasize that whereas Negroids are brown by their skin color, they're not in every case Brown by their racial classification


Well that's what I'm complaining about in this instance. I understand that "black people" and "brown people" are separate racial categories, but I can't approve of the naming convention because it's an innaccurate description of the actual colors of their skin.

There are many black people who look the same color as some Arabs and Hispanics. And there are some black people of full-blooded ancestry who are a lighter color and some mixed race people, especially in countries like Brazil, who look as dark as can be.

You can't just look at a guy like Jax and go "Well he's kinda light in MK9, I bet he has a white parent like Obama does", color is not by any means an accurate measure of ancestry.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/02/2014 01:38 PM EST
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Zmoke Wrote:
I should emphasize that whereas Negroids are brown by their skin color, they're not in every case Brown by their racial classification

Well that's what I'm complaining about in this instance. I understand that "black people" and "brown people" are separate racial categories, but I can't approve of the naming convention because it's an innaccurate description of the actual colors of their skin.

So is "White", but you still use that term, RE701. I didn't make the racial classification, I just deal with what we've got. Moreover, for distinction purposes, it is useful to write the race "Brown" with a big initial letter.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
There are many black people who look the same color as some Arabs and Hispanics. And there are some black people of full-blooded ancestry who are a lighter color and some mixed race people, especially in countries like Brazil, who look as dark as can be.

"Brown" is a safe bet if you're a full-on Brown but only a borderline Black.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Zmoke Wrote:
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
MK9 Jax is very similar in color to Jade, in fact, and we know him to be full-on African-American.

I have always perceived Jax MK9 as half-Black half-White for 1) biraciality is common in USA, 2) now these guys got a fine representative, 3) it would leave Darrius as the full-on Negroid while Cyrax is a Capoid 4) and lastly as well as most importantly, Jax MK9's skin tone resembles that of one.

You can't just look at a guy like Jax and go "Well he's kinda light in MK9, I bet he has a white parent like Obama does", color is not by any means an accurate measure of ancestry.

You can neither look at Jax and state; "we know him to be full-on African-American." Furthermore, I already explained my stance and I didn't state that as a truth (like you did) but merely as my way of perceiving Jax MK9.

You got it – the bolded part – color is by no means an accurate measure of ancestry. Which is the very reason "Brown" suffices; we shouldn't even try to define Jade's race too accurately and there is an agreement on that.
hankypanky1 Wrote:
I chose Mixed at first too, but then I started to look into it more, and now think she's Black (like Jamaican etc.) I used to think she was like Indian but till I posted my tanning pics and then someone posting her in-game pics, I thought no she couldn't be Brown, she's actually a lot darker.

Here is an Indian gal. It is irrefutable that Jade MK9 (Story Mode) is Brown.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/02/2014 04:27 PM EST
Zmoke Wrote:
So is "White", but you still use that term, RE701.


But I use it as shorthand for "has a light skintone", someone who's roughly "peach" in color, not as a synonym for "of caucasian ancestry"...because "white" is much easier for people to understand than "peach colored" is. It's a kind of slang.

I also use "Black" to mean "dark brown skinned".

Like how people sometimes say "Jesus would have been black" when actually, if Christ did exist, he would have been Middle-Eastern by ethnicity. They're talking about his skin, not calling him a person of Sub-Saharan African descent.

Similarly, if you had posted that picture of that girl and, instead of telling everyone she's Indian, asked us to guess what she is, I'm sure there are some people who would have guessed "black" because her skin is dark brown.

That's an incorrect description of her ethnicity, yes, but "black" is NOT an incorrect description of her color, except in the obvious way that black people are not actually Noob Saibot-colored and white people are not the color of marshmallows and clouds...

But that's inherent to the English language, it's part of the accepted definitions that when talking about skin, "black" and "white" mean "brown" and "peach", even though it's not technically true.

Zmoke Wrote:
I didn't make the racial classification, I just deal with what we've got.


See...this is the point I'm trying to make: using anything that's a racial classification in the first place is the wrong thing to do with Jade.

Riyakou was completely right about one thing: NO "racial classification" applies to Jade because those are all terms countries on EARTH use to describe EARTH people, and she's not FROM Earth, so none of them can ever apply.

You can ONLY refer to Jade by terms that refer to COLOR because we don't KNOW anything about what region of Edenia she's from, what her parentage or ancestry consists of, or what Edenians even call their ethnic groups.

If you want to call Jade "brown" as a description of her skintone, that's absolutely fine, that's the same thing I've been doing (except that I have ALSO been using "black" to describe her because she's dark.) That's why I argued with Riyakou the whole thread that when people ask what she's supposed to be, they're not really asking about race, what they want to discuss is descriptions of her physical features.

But if you want to call Jade "brown" as a shorthand for "mixed race" or "she looks like a middle-easterner/hispanic and in their countries, they call themselves "brown people", or any variety of "this is what she'd mark herself as a census", you are inherently in error.

And if using the term that way wasn't your intention, then I apologize for making a fuss, but I feel that your past couple posts have seemed to lean more towards "using brown to describe ethnicity" than "using brown to describe color" specifically because a line has been drawn between "brown" and "black" as if to say they aren't the same thing, when the fact is, when it comes to skin color, they actually are. (I also have a problem with the poll using the term "mixed" because there's no possible way to say what she's a mix OF. Where she's from, she could very well be a pureblood of whatever her Edenia-native ethnicity is.)

If you want to talk about shades of brown too light to be "black people", you might want to use the word "tan" instead.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/02/2014 04:53 PM EST
She could be Brown I guess because she doesn't have the usual 'black' person's nose.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/02/2014 05:30 PM EST
1) People of the same color or ethnicity don't all look the same.
2) "Black people have a wide, flat nose" is an Earth-people thing, it wouldn't necessarily be the same in Edenia. That's why I say go only by color.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/03/2014 04:41 PM EST
Are you going to build this up to the point that you can't handle it again? You're ludicrous; I only answered to your question appropriately (clearly) and now you're arguing again. Keep on whining/complaining and flip-flopping all you want, but your credibility is lowering staggeringly and I cannot take your input too seriously, not without a grain of salt for sure. Your behavior in the other topic about similar stuff (geography) was that bad that you can color yourself lucky to have me even respond to you at this point. I already answered the fucking question, you don't have to build every little detail into an argument, lmao. coltess's post also moots your whole argument about Jade's alleged skin tone consistency pre-MK9.
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Zmoke Wrote:
So is "White", but you still use that term, RE701.

But I use it as shorthand for "has a light skintone", someone who's roughly "peach" in color, not as a synonym for "of caucasian ancestry"...because "white" is much easier for people to understand than "peach colored" is.

I bet you also call Baraka "White". You know what, RE701? Nobody cares about what you in particular prefer, true or false: It doesn't moot the facts. Furthermore, you are wrong because "White" is not a shorthand for "has a light skintone". Mongols are not White for example, albeit they are pale.
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
I also use "Black" to mean "dark brown skinned".
Like how people sometimes say "Jesus would have been black" when actually he would have been Middle-Eastern by ethnicity. They're talking about his skin, not calling him a person of Sub-Saharan African descent.

That's downright false. First of all, "Middle-Eastern" is not an ethnicity and should you know better; a race is much more than merely the skin color. I actually know more than jackshit about this thing and I can say that no one exactly knows Jesus's skin tone seeing his bones, that have been found, don't tell that. However, since Arabs are Black, that estimation isn't entirely out of place. There were also slaves from sub-Saharan lands in Mideast.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Similarly, if you had posted that picture of that girl and, instead of telling everyone she's Indian, asked us to guess what she is, I'm sure there are some people who would have guessed "black" because her skin is dark brown.
That's an incorrect description of her ethnicity, yes, but "black" is NOT an incorrect description of her color, except in the obvious way that black people are not actually Noob Saibot-colored and white people are not the color of marshmallows and clouds...

It's not an incorrect description of her ethnicity. She is Black (and Brown.)

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
But that's inherent to the English language, it's part of the accepted definitions that when talking about skin, "black" and "white" mean "brown" and "peach", even though it's not technically true.

Indeed it is. Then what the Hell is your issue with "Brown" to start with?

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Zmoke Wrote:
I didn't make the racial classification, I just deal with what we've got.

See...this is the point I'm trying to make: using anything that's a racial classification in the first place is the wrong thing to do with Jade.
Riyakou was completely right about one thing: NO "racial classification" applies to Jade because those are all terms countries on EARTH use to describe EARTH people, and she's not FROM Earth, so none of them can ever apply.
You are wrong and that has already been handled thoroughly. ~Z

You can ONLY refer to Jade by terms that refer to COLOR because we don't KNOW anything about what region of Edenia she's from, what her parentage or ancestry consists of, or what Edenians even call their ethnic groups.
If you want to call Jade "brown" as a description of her skintone, that's absolutely fine, that's the same thing I've been doing.
But if you want to call Jade "brown" as a shorthand for "mixed race" or "she looks like a middle-easterner/hispanic and in their countries, they call themselves "brown people", or any variety of "this is what she'd mark herself as a census", you are inherently in error.

You are starting this subject from the beginning again... The information about where Mr. Riyakou is from tells nothing either, because he is Black even though North America's indigenous people were Amerindians. But he is from USA and it contains every race there is. Edenia is supposed to be even more globalized and unified than Earthrealm is, so the knowledge on her place of birth would tell nothing. Most importanly; "Brown" is not tied to a country to begin with. Things are not as black and white as you think.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
And if using the term that way wasn't your intention, then I apologize for making a fuss, but I feel that your past couple posts have seemed to lean more towards "using brown to describe ethnicity" than "using brown to describe color" specifically because a line has been drawn between "brown" and "black" as if to say they aren't the same thing, when the fact is, when it comes to skin color, they actually are. (I also have a problem with the poll using the term "mixed" because there's no possible way to say what she's a mix OF. Where she's from, she could very well be a pureblood of whatever her Edenia-native ethnicity is.)
If you want to talk about shades of brown too light to be "black people", you might want to use the word "tan" instead.

You have a lot to apologize. No, "Tan Edenian" didn't gain big support from MKO. If you just have comprehension problems, then I am sorry for you.
You yourself even talked about Black Edenians. Like "Black" people, Brown people can dwell technically anywhere and the word "Brown" doesn't refer to any place in the first place but to a color, for what it matters, so it isn't tied exclusively to Earth. As long as Jade MK9 fullfills all the requirements for a Brown human, it will do (and it does do.) Re-read ]{0MBAT's posts.The races are not tied to the geographic locations. A Brown person can be born in Estonia and be an Estonian that way, even though Brown Estonian people were not mentioned in the Wikipedia page. In the same manner, Brown Edenians can exist. "You can ONLY refer to Jade by terms that refer to COLOR" even so, the Brown Edenian term is alright because that refers to a color. Nothing else is needed to know. Brown Edenian is OK to use.
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
1) People of the same color or ethnicity don't all look the same.

"Thank you, Captain Obvious!" ~Z

2) "Black people have a wide, flat nose" is an Earth-people thing, it wouldn't necessarily be the same in Edenia. That's why I say go only by color.

They have a wide, flat nose for you can breathe better with that in a humid, hot environment. It's all very logical, the dark skin tone also comes from a sunny environment. This is not a one man's vote, the community (or those who are invested in this) has already spoken and I respect that outcome. Especially given how unknowledgeable and unstable you are on this topic (see; flip-flopping), I don't see why your say should go above the voters'.
RazorsEdge701 Wrote: (in the last page)
Because this has gone on too long. It NEEDS TO END.

Do you remember what I told about flip-flopping? You're doing that all over again. In certain ways your memory has to be equal to that of a goldfish.

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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 12:22 AM EST
Dude, why are you the way that you are?
Like, pretty much none of what you just said makes any goddamn sense, most of it's inappropriately antagonistic in tone, and this time I'm not going to let you drag me into another point-by-point deconstruction of your crazy that consumes hours of my life.
It's like in literally every thread we both post in, you're just making up any possible thing you can to argue against me off the top of your head because you have some bizarre need to fight me on everything and prove your intelligence and all it ever does is make you look crazy and obnoxious.
Maybe it's not just me, you've spent a whole day now doing it to Icebaby in the Rain thread too...although you did keep bringing my name up long after I had given up trying to reason with you and let her take over the debate.
You've been doing this shit off and on ever since that thread about the origins of characters' names. How long ago was that, two years now? I'm sure that being proven wrong about so many different things so many different times must sting, but it's way too obvious that you just want so bad for everyone to think of you as a know-it-all guy...but you're just so bad at it (not the least of which because English isn't your first language and it often shows), and it's plain for everyone to see how super-insecure about it you are and that's why you drag these arguments on forever and have this obsession with debating me.
I don't argue these things for ME, y'know, there's many examples one can see on these boards where I've admitted when I'm wrong or conceded a point, because I don't care much about image outside of when having credibility helps strengthen a point, I just want everything that's put out there to be the accurate truth and for people to understand and absorb it. I argue with you so you won't misinform or mislead other people. I just like to teach, I'm tryin' to be helpful to others (hell right now, I'm trying to help YOU, not that you'll take any of this to heart, I'm sure...), I'm all about the sharing of knowledge, but that knowledge has to be accurate or it doesn't help anybody... like explaining what isn't and isn't canon in the MK games, or to have a little perspective on an issue like "Black doesn't just mean African, lots of brown people call themselves that and they're not wrong"...but you? people can SENSE the desperation, the NEED to be right when they read your shit. You try too hard, you cling too dogmatically to your beliefs and opinions and take it too personally when someone has evidence that you're wrong or an argument that's more compelling than yours.
Look at how much trouble you go to just to make a simple damn message board post: the constant "comedic" pictures you throw in, the colored text and enlarged fonts? Why put forth all that unnecessary extra effort? Do you actually feel like it's making people take you more seriously or pay better attention to your words? How does a picture of a pinball machine make your argument stronger? At a certain point all the bells and whistles you use to draw attention to your posts become gaudy, distracting, an eyesore, like trying to read all the electronic billboards in Times Square at once, people stop paying attention to what it all says because it's sensory overload. You're trying way too hard. That you even made the poll in this thread in the first place is a testament to your need to be the center of attention. It ain't your thread, only approximately a dozen people bothered to vote, and votes measure opinions but we're discussing matters of fact and word definitions and such...but you keep insisting on the poll's importance as a debate-settler, and the only reason you're doing that is YOU made the poll and you're all emotionally invested in it, so when I say "well the terms you used in the poll are inaccurate and polling is irrelevant anyway", you get all mad because I'm refusing to validate something you created to fuel your side of the debate.
Just stop, for your own sake. Let it all go. It's unhealthy, get outside once in a while and find some kind of peace in your life or something. Is being "the smartest guy" on a nearly dead, poorly run internet message board really so important?
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 06:18 AM EST
If you desired to be convincing, you'd have sent me that "personal attack" via PM and sent an appropriate message in here. My post does make sense, maybe not to you. I'm certain. I will guarantee (I've said this before) that my intention is not personal victory but the victory of truth. See, you've gotten from this thread a lot more than I have because I have wronged and corrected you in many occasions. You haven't provided me much new information at all. That's why my tone was "antagonistic", and also for you completely deserved that, mind you. Now, I perfectly realize that a pinball machine is not an argument in itself; but since you brought that up – it worked. You'll remember that. It's still a lot more than none, which is the amount of quotations in your post here. I don't care about the "smartest guy" title on MKO seriously – do you? You must do, because you have been on this board for years non-stop. I didn't even post for a whole year, spanning the most of 2013. Now, how would I be interested in whatever title MKO grants me when I didn't even frequent this site last year? There is a ton of more evidence that you in fact want to be that. Should you know better, though, that doesn't make you any more intelligent. Why don't you take a long break from MKO? It's not your home. It's a home site at best.

If you desire constructive criticism: To avoid many debacles, you could just ask instead of state 'bold truths' and be kind of more questioning in lieu of attacking. Like in that thread where you called GKL's reincarnation "impossible", when it wasn't. I never do that, I haven't called your content impossible. It's also pretty odd that when you get corrected or an argument ends, you'll just end it bluntly and post nothing back – in my opinion of course.

I am not insecure as I've proven now, in that I can even discuss about these things. I can continue this discussion but since this has zero to do with Jade, I'd recommend PM. More than anything, RazorsEdge701 is.
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Dude, why are you the way that you are?
Like, pretty much none of what you just said makes any goddamn sense, most of it's inappropriately antagonistic in tone, and this time I'm not going to let you drag me into another point-by-point deconstruction of your crazy that consumes hours of my life.
It's like in literally every thread we both post in, you're just making up any possible thing you can to argue against me off the top of your head because you have some bizarre need to fight me on everything and prove your intelligence and all it ever does is make you look crazy and obnoxious.
Maybe it's not just me, you've spent a whole day now doing it to Icebaby in the Rain thread too...although you did keep bringing my name up long after I had given up trying to reason with you and let her take over the debate.
You've been doing this shit off and on ever since that thread about the origins of characters' names. How long ago was that, two years now? I'm sure that being proven wrong about so many different things so many different times must sting, but it's way too obvious that you just want so bad for everyone to think of you as a know-it-all guy...but you're just so bad at it (not the least of which because English isn't your first language and it often shows), and it's plain for everyone to see how super-insecure about it you are and that's why you drag these arguments on forever and have this obsession with debating me.
I don't argue these things for ME, y'know, there's many examples one can see on these boards where I've admitted when I'm wrong or conceded a point, because I don't care much about image outside of when having credibility helps strengthen a point, I just want everything that's put out there to be the accurate truth and for people to understand and absorb it. I argue with you so you won't misinform or mislead other people. I just like to teach, I'm tryin' to be helpful to others (hell right now, I'm trying to help YOU, not that you'll take any of this to heart, I'm sure...), I'm all about the sharing of knowledge, but that knowledge has to be accurate or it doesn't help anybody... like explaining what isn't and isn't canon in the MK games, or to have a little perspective on an issue like "Black doesn't just mean African, lots of brown people call themselves that and they're not wrong"...but you? people can SENSE the desperation, the NEED to be right when they read your shit. You try too hard, you cling too dogmatically to your beliefs and opinions and take it too personally when someone has evidence that you're wrong or an argument that's more compelling than yours.
Look at how much trouble you go to just to make a simple damn message board post: the constant "comedic" pictures you throw in, the colored text and enlarged fonts? Why put forth all that unnecessary extra effort? Do you actually feel like it's making people take you more seriously or pay better attention to your words? How does a picture of a pinball machine make your argument stronger? At a certain point all the bells and whistles you use to draw attention to your posts become gaudy, distracting, an eyesore, like trying to read all the electronic billboards in Times Square at once, people stop paying attention to what it all says because it's sensory overload. You're trying way too hard. That you even made the poll in this thread in the first place is a testament to your need to be the center of attention. It ain't your thread, only approximately a dozen people bothered to vote, and votes measure opinions but we're discussing matters of fact and word definitions and such...but you keep insisting on the poll's importance as a debate-settler, and the only reason you're doing that is YOU made the poll and you're all emotionally invested in it, so when I say "well the terms you used in the poll are inaccurate and polling is irrelevant anyway", you get all mad because I'm refusing to validate something you created to fuel your side of the debate.
Just stop, for your own sake. Let it all go. It's unhealthy, get outside once in a while and find some kind of peace in your life or something. Is being "the smartest guy" on a nearly dead, poorly run internet message board really so important?
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 08:28 AM EST
The reason I don't like to do this sort of thing by PM is because a person can read a PM once, or not at all, and then delete it and forget it ever happened. Posting it publicly makes it harder to dismiss.

Also, I think that the other people on this board deserve to know who they're getting their information from before they trust your word or mine.

"In a thread about MK canon, do I really want to believe a guy who thinks Sindel is Rain's mom without proof?"

"In a thread about what words mean (like for example whether or not "brown skinned" and "black" are the same thing), do I want to side with the guy who has been speaking English naturally all his life, or do I want to side with a foreigner who's still learning?"

"Is this guy arguing because he truly believes in what he's saying, or is he just trying to save face and not lose a fight on the internet, or does he just keep going even when proven wrong solely to spite the other party?"

These are important things the rest of the people on this board need to consider when they read your posts. I'm calling your credibility as a debater and a source of knowledge into question for the whole of MKO to see because I feel that misinforming and deceiving people is immoral and I'm not comfortable standing by and letting it happen whenever I see it occur.
You claim that your first priority is to the truth just like me, but I think it's telling about your true motives that I can admit when I'm wrong but I can't recall ever seeing you do the same.
I do recall an occasion where you were claiming that the word "Oni" was pronounced "One-Eye", and at the end, when you saw proof that you were mistaken, you said "I've changed my opinion" instead of saying "I was wrong". That kind of response, obviously intended to save face, does the exact opposite. People have more respect for a man who takes responsibility for his errors. Just because you say you're not coming from a place of insecurity doesn't make it true. I'm not trying to villainize you or chase you away here, I want to inspire you to be a bit more self-aware.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 08:45 AM EST
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
The reason I don't like to do this sort of thing by PM is because a person can read a PM once, or not at all, and then delete it and forget it ever happened. Posting it publicly makes it harder to dismiss.

Your intentions are irrelevant. Your actions matter. You are off-topic.

RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Also, I think that the other people on this board deserve to know who they're getting their information from before they trust your word or mine.
"In a thread about MK canon, do I really want to believe a guy who thinks Sindel is Rain's mom without proof?"
I don't believe it is necessarily so, it's a theory. There is proof. ~Z
"In a thread about what words mean (like for example whether or not "brown skinned" and "black" are the same thing), do I want to side with the guy who has been speaking English naturally all his life, or do I want to side with a foreigner who's still learning?"
"Is this guy arguing because he truly believes in what he's saying, or is he just trying to save face and not lose a fight on the internet, or does he just keep going even when proven wrong solely to spite the other party?"
These are important things the rest of the people on this board need to consider when they read your posts. I'm calling your credibility as a debater and a source of knowledge into question for the whole of MKO to see because I feel that misinforming and deceiving people is immoral and I'm not comfortable standing by and letting it happen whenever I see it occur.

So you actually take grammar as an argument? I am still learning, and so are you. That is a fact. I am an ESL – that regardless doesn't reduce my points' truthfulness – and you haven't indicated my grammatical errors to this point even once, yet now you do that. Usually, when one relies on grammar Nazism in an online debate, they have lost it. If you think that I am immoral, then prove it. I don't care about your accusations, and I can confirm that my motifs are not immoral. Get on the damn topic, soldier.
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
I do recall an occasion where you were claiming that the word "Oni" was pronounced "One-Eye", and at the end, when you saw proof that you were mistaken, you said "I've changed my opinion" instead of saying "I was wrong". That kind of response, obviously intended to save face, does the exact opposite. People have more respect for a man who takes responsibility for his errors.
You are desperate... Is this your defense? That one small detail's already been discussed. You have a ton of occasions in which you have admitted nothing, like in the Enenra case. But that really has zero to do with Jade.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 09:07 AM EST
Zmoke Wrote:
You are off-topic.


It's not like that hasn't happened before. On occasion, you're guilty of that crime as well.

Zmoke Wrote:
So you actually take grammar as an argument?


"Grammar" isn't the right word for it. We're not talking about spelling or punctuation, we're talking about what words actually mean and how they're used.

When part of the argument was "Do "brown-skinned" and "black person" mean the same thing?" Yes, ability to speak the language fluently is very important to that. Surely you can see the relevance.

I just don't think you're qualified to contest some areas of the argument we had here over the past page of this thread, because you don't really KNOW the ways in which people who speak it as a first language use some words, all languages are nuanced and subtle, and I have seen you fail to grasp nuances, particularly when it comes to slang and shorthand, whereas I have a lifetime of firsthand experience with the subject.
I am telling you as a native-English speaker that, in English, "black people" are many varying shades of brown, both light and dark. And regardless of whether or not 13 people said on a poll that they think she looks "mixed", even though that's a term that refers to parentage and not appearance, the skintones of the MK9 versions of Jade and Jax (at least, as far as their in-game models go) both fall within the range of acceptable "blackness".

Zmoke Wrote:
You have a ton of occasions in which you have admitted nothing


You must not have had acceptable proof those times or I would have.

Zmoke Wrote:
like in the Enenra case.


Your memory of the argument about Smoke's Ending seems flawed. In the end, I did admit I MIGHT be mistaken but that I still genuinely believe that the monster in that ending might not be Smoke himself, but rather the demon to which Smoke was being sacrificed.

The thread combed over multiple pictures and animations attempting to discern whether or not Smoke was transforming from cloud, into the monster, and back, and I still found them inconclusive because part of the animation involved the clouds fading away into the black background.
But that's beside the point. The POINT is that, though you may respond to criticism of your personal character by criticizing mine in retaliation, I am AWARE of my shortcomings and thus, able to admit them or to on occasion restrain them...and that does nothing to address the original criticism of YOUR personal character, which is that you are historically completely incapable of even considering the possibility that you're WRONG about anything, much less admitting it, and that this has hurt your credibility as a source of information on these boards.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 09:19 AM EST
RazorsEdge701 Wrote:
Zmoke Wrote:
You are off-topic.

It's not like that hasn't happened before. On occasion, you're guilty of that crime as well.
Zmoke Wrote:
So you actually take grammar as an argument?

"Grammar" isn't the right word for it. We're not talking about spelling or punctuation, we're talking about what words actually mean and how they're used.
When part of the argument was "Do "brown-skinned" and "black person" mean the same thing?" Yes, ability to speak the language fluently is very important to that. Surely you can see the relevance.
I just don't think you're qualified to contest some areas of the argument we had here over the past page of this thread, because you don't really KNOW the ways in which people who speak it as a first language use some words, all languages are nuanced and subtle, and I have seen you fail to grasp nuances, particularly when it comes to slang and shorthand, whereas I have a lifetime of firsthand experience with the subject.
I am telling you as a native-English speaker that, in English, "black people" are many varying shades of brown, both light and dark. And regardless of whether or not 13 people said on a poll that they think she looks "mixed", even though that's a term that refers to parentage and not appearance, the skintones of the MK9 versions of Jade and Jax both fall within the range of acceptable "blackness".

Had you comprehended what I wrote, Jade and Jax (MK9) are both Black and Brown. It's about a matter of preference in the field of which should be used.

Zmoke Wrote:
You have a ton of occasions in which you have admitted nothing

You must not have had acceptable proof those times or I would have.
Zmoke Wrote:
like in the Enenra case.

Your memory of the argument about Smoke's Ending seems flawed. In the end, I did admit I MIGHT be mistaken but that I still genuinely believe that the monster in that ending might not be Smoke himself, but rather the demon to which Smoke was being sacrificed.
The thread combed over multiple pictures and animations attempting to discern whether or not Smoke was transforming from cloud, into the monster, and back, and I still found them inconclusive because part of the animation involved the clouds fading away into the black background.

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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 09:21 AM EST
If you won't even CONSIDER the possibility that I'm right about you being insecure and unable to admit when you're wrong, then why should anyone ever trust your word?
How can someone believe that you share information because you have THEIR best interests at heart, if you project the image of someone who only cares about stubbornly defending themselves?
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 09:23 AM EST
RazorsEdge701 Wrote: (Before retro-expanding his post again...)
If you won't even CONSIDER the possibility that I'm right about you being insecure and unable to admit when you're wrong, then why should anyone ever trust your word?
Because I bring hard evidence to the table.I defend others a lot too, like Riyakou here. Above that, I defend the truth.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 09:29 AM EST
That's untrue fairly frequently.

And ironically, you haven't once had any concrete factual or canonical data to present in your "Rain's mom could be royalty" argument and repeatedly outright ignored several pieces of hard evidence provided by both me and Icebaby.

No one can ever trust you or believe that your motives for arguing are in defense of the truth if you constantly deny the actual truth because you're incapable of recognizing and owning up to it when you're proven to be in error.
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 09:30 AM EST
Posturing and grandstanding will be fine for PM. Get it back on topic.
Keep it concise and on point to avoid further issues. If you wish to discuss other topics, be encouraged to do so in those relevant threads.

What do you like? Hit the Toasty thumbs up on articles and forum posts for a quick response!
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RE: What Race Is Jade?
04/04/2014 09:34 AM EST
Mick-Lucifer Wrote:
Get it back on topic.


You do realize that part of the dispute has been over "what IS the thread even about in the first place", right?

We've got people in here constantly using terms that refer to ethnicity, the topic title even uses the word "race", but that's been repeatedly pointed out to be a fool's errand because Jade's not a human being and nobody knows what the race-options ARE in Edenia.

The only thing you actually CAN talk about when talking about her "race" is the color of her skin, which has only led to arguing about what the difference is between "black" people, "brown" people, and "mixed" people.